Author Topic: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge  (Read 14114 times)

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Online Mrjason

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #725 on: March 13, 2014, 05:10:12 AM »
This is an intellectual slight of hand used by theists all the time.
Is a belief in god as irrational as a disbelief in god? It is a question of reasonableness.
Is it reasonable to believe in something that you have absolutely no evidence for?
I would say no.
The onus remains with you to provide evidence of what you believe in.

Notice the bold.

Now apply this to atheism:

Is it reasonable to believe in atheism when you have absolutely no evidence for it?

Ah, you're still trying to conflate faith in atheism with faith in theism. Same trick as a few pages ago.

Does the following make sense:

To believe in god requires faith.
Not believing in god requires no faith whatsoever.

If it doesn't make sense can you explain why?

Online Mrjason

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #726 on: March 13, 2014, 05:17:00 AM »
I view abandoning 3,000 years worth of Biblical History in favor of a century of geological work as wrong.

If you think that the bible has been building on true historical revelations for 3,000 years why aren't you muslim?

This has been explained ad infinitum.

When Jesus gave up the ghost on the cross, He cried out, "it is finished." If Islam is a true religion, then Jesus lied on the cross. It would not have been finished until Muhammad, then. Jesus is no liar, so when he says, "it is finished," you damn well know it's finished.

So by extension Mohammed (PBUH) is a liar?

Online Mrjason

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #727 on: March 13, 2014, 05:52:23 AM »
Of course plants were created before the Sun. God already created light on the 1st day. This light was used to make plants grow.

Did you seriously miss this? I hope you don't take offense to this, but this is very basic reading comprehension, about 2nd grade level.

Really? There was light but no source of light? The light wasn't being emitted from anything?

Does this fit with anything we know about light?

This is the kind of crazy talk I was speaking about here:

The problem with a belief in god is that it raises more questions than it answers.
Why evil, why so many competing religions, why wasn't my prayer answered WWGHA etc etc ad nauseum and the answers become evermore contrived and irrational

Offline SevenPatch

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #728 on: March 13, 2014, 06:18:49 AM »
This analogy might not even be that good either since we know yachts exist, we’ve seen them at docks, in pictures, on TV and the internet.  “God” is even more vague and ambiguous than a non-existent yacht.

_______________________________

If “God” clearly exists, how does one actively believe “God” does not exist.  This seems unimaginable to me, it would be like actively believing my house doesn’t exist as I’m standing in front of it or sleeping in my bed on the second floor of said house.  If “God” exists, is “God” not as obvious as my house?  Why not?  Why is “God” even less obvious than a slight screw-up in a tattoo? 

The problem is, “God” is about as obvious as a non-existent yacht in front of my neighbors house.  I don’t need to actively believe “God” doesn’t exist anymore than I need to actively believe there is no yacht in front of my neighbors house.  I simply lack belief that there is a yacht in front of my neighbors house in the same way I lack belief that there is a “God”.


False analogy because yachts, by definition, are visible.
God by definition, is invisible.

I see you didn't actually read all of my post.  For your convenience, I've edited my post so all that is left is my preemptive response to your "God is invisible" response.

Why does your "God" pretend to not exist?  Why is your "God" tricking me?

My points still stand.

EDIT:

An additional concern about this invisible (immaterial) "God" is that other invisible (immaterial) stuff requires no need to actively believe don't exist.  Santa Claus for example.  Imaginary friends is an example as well.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2014, 06:54:11 AM by SevenPatch »
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #729 on: March 13, 2014, 07:30:22 AM »
Regarding this absurd notion that atheism is a belief.  Atheism is just a word. 
All words have a beginning and a meaning for its use. Originally it was used to identify and group everyone else who believed in a god of some sort but was not Christian who believed in the one true God.
The problem that we have with this word is that it is evolving to mean all sorts of things.

So what do you prove IF you even ever prove your point.  I think I will be 80 and this conversation will still be going.  There is no point to it......

Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #730 on: March 13, 2014, 07:34:30 AM »
An additional concern about this invisible (immaterial) "God" is that other invisible (immaterial) stuff requires no need to actively believe don't exist.  Santa Claus for example.  Imaginary friends is an example as well.

Yeah! Like tulpas! Wait...shit...
Rule 1: No pooftas. Rule 2: No maltreating the theists, IF, anyone is watching. Rule 3: No pooftas. Rule 4: I do not want to see anyone NOT drinking after light out. Rule 5: No pooftas. Rule 6: There is NO...rule 6.

Offline junebug72

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #731 on: March 13, 2014, 07:36:05 AM »
This is an intellectual slight of hand used by theists all the time.
Is a belief in god as irrational as a disbelief in god? It is a question of reasonableness.
Is it reasonable to believe in something that you have absolutely no evidence for?
I would say no.
The onus remains with you to provide evidence of what you believe in.

Notice the bold.

Now apply this to atheism:

Is it reasonable to believe in atheism when you have absolutely no evidence for it?

Their evidence is you!
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #732 on: March 13, 2014, 07:46:23 AM »
Ah, you're still trying to conflate faith in atheism with faith in theism. Same trick as a few pages ago.

Even more moronic, when he knows that his definition of atheist is different to ours.

Still no sign of Skep in the "Are there any atheists here?" thread. If he goes in there, he would have to troll it off-topic, like Jesuis.
I strive for clarity, but aim for confusion.

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #733 on: March 13, 2014, 07:56:35 AM »
Even more funny, is that Skep is blind to the theist, preaching Buddhism and Eck.

Here's something for Skep to read
http://truthabouteckankar.blogspot.com.au/2007/06/chanhassen-newspaper-scratches-surface.html

Quote
Kemosabe said...

    I am a former member of 30+ years in Eckankar. Discovering the lies and fraud is only part of the problem. The real problem is Eckankar is dangerous!

    Paul Twitchell states "Eckankar was brought to earth millions of years ago by a race called the God Eaters" – Eckankar, Compiled Writings Vol. 1. What Twitchell was referring to was an Alien ET entity that steals "soul energy" (psychic vampires). These beings are well known through out history. The problem is that these beings exist just outside normal human perception and cannot be seen with the physical eyes but felt as energy. They will kill their target!

    They take the devotee on a “roller coaster” ride while they are in Eckankar. Our emotional misery is their blood.

    Twichell was a student of L. Ron Hubbard, and Hubbard was a student of Aleister Crowley , dubbed “the most evil man alive” during his lifetime. It is well know that these men practiced black magic, summoned demons from different dimensions, and participated in communicating with evil forces.

    We are dealing with the same evil that rules planet earth today. The problem is only a few can sense the presence of these creatures. Finally, as we move into 2012 many people are becoming aware of these beings.

    Lastly, the spiritual exercises are real. They just are not unique to Eckankar. The Light and Sound practice to generate a positive electromagnetic field has been with humanity since humans were put on this planet. Twichell, Hubbard and others wrapped a religion around this ancient practice and called it their own.

    Don’t be angry by the lies and deceit of Eckankar; just be glad you made it out alive! Search Kundalini energy and you will find out more about raising positive energy.
    http://www.soundlightmeditation.com

    I wish you well on your journey to recovery.

    JN




but Skep isn't interested in the theist, he wants to attack his fictional "atheist".
I strive for clarity, but aim for confusion.

Offline median

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #734 on: March 13, 2014, 09:02:58 AM »
I think we've all figured out by now that the only things you're skeptical of are the things you don't agree with.  Frankly, it's laughably easy to be skeptical of such things, because the human mind is wired that way.  So the real challenge to a skeptic is whether they can be skeptical of things which they're inclined to agree with. 

We found out recently, the Skeptrick is only skeptical of everyone he's is talking to's existence, because he is a solipsist. Ironically, he is skeptical of nothing else.

I have never said that I am a solipsist. I said that solipsism is the only logical position for the atheist because only you know that your mind exists. You don't have any proof of anyone else's mind. They could all be philosophical zombies.

My position is immaterialism, the complete opposite of materialism.


This is a bullshit position too. So, you're an 'immaterialist' eh? So, only "immaterial" things exist then?

You already got yourself into solipsism by trying to quote Berkeley but merely CLAIMING some-thing-called-a "God" gets you out of it is nothing but a mere assertion with no backing. You haven't solved the problem of solipsism. Once again, you've just ASSERTED that your arbitrary assertion solves it. Sorry, your "b/c I say so" fallacy fails no matter how many times you try to use it.

Still waiting for you to do your philosophy homework and read Kant (among others).

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline median

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #735 on: March 13, 2014, 09:08:42 AM »
So, that would be something along the lines of "nothing exists because it's all in God's mind"?

Yes, only minds and their mental perceptions exist. Objective reality exists as things in God's mind and things everyone else can see and agree on, such as California and trees. Things such as hallucinations and mind altering drugs are subjective and based on the individual mind. This is why not everyone can see a hallucination except for the one person. That is a big problem for materialism.

More "b/c I say so" eh? You've just contradicted yourself. First you say only minds exist (which you assume minds are some 'immaterial thing' and haven't demonstrated that), then you claim material things like California and trees exist. You can't have your cake and eat it too big guy. Either only 'immaterial' things (whatever the heck that means) exist, at which case there are no trees, OR material things do exist and your entire argument falls apart.

It's called logic. You should really consider getting some training with it.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #736 on: March 13, 2014, 10:34:43 AM »
Really? There was light but no source of light? The light wasn't being emitted from anything?

Does this fit with anything we know about light?

God is described as "The light of the world" in the Bible. The light of the Lord could easily cause the plants to grow.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Online Boots

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #737 on: March 13, 2014, 11:08:17 AM »
So, that would be something along the lines of "nothing exists because it's all in God's mind"?

Yes, only minds and their mental perceptions exist. Objective reality exists as things in God's mind and things everyone else can see and agree on, such as California and trees. Things such as hallucinations and mind altering drugs are subjective and based on the individual mind. This is why not everyone can see a hallucination except for the one person. That is a big problem for materialism.

More "b/c I say so" eh? You've just contradicted yourself. First you say only minds exist (which you assume minds are some 'immaterial thing' and haven't demonstrated that), then you claim material things like California and trees exist. You can't have your cake and eat it too big guy. Either only 'immaterial' things (whatever the heck that means) exist, at which case there are no trees, OR material things do exist and your entire argument falls apart.

It's called logic. You should really consider getting some training with it.

Here's another point to consider.  If, under skep's world view, objective things exist in gawd's mind, doesn't that mean our brains exist in gawd's mind?  And if hallucinations are a product of our brains, don't they also exist in gawd's mind?
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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #738 on: March 13, 2014, 11:33:34 AM »
Here's another point to consider.  If, under skep's world view, objective things exist in gawd's mind, doesn't that mean our brains exist in gawd's mind?  And if hallucinations are a product of our brains, don't they also exist in gawd's mind?

If that's true, maybe he doesn't believe that I exist.

Heavy, dude.  ;D
Not everyone is entitled to their opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Online jaimehlers

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #739 on: March 13, 2014, 12:11:19 PM »
Jesuis, did you notice my post two pages back about the difference between pagans, heathens, and atheists?

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,26445.msg605737.html#msg605737

You really should read it, because I think you've gotten your terminology mixed up somewhere.

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #740 on: March 13, 2014, 12:18:50 PM »
Here's another point to consider.  If, under skep's world view, objective things exist in gawd's mind, doesn't that mean our brains exist in gawd's mind?  And if hallucinations are a product of our brains, don't they also exist in gawd's mind?

In skeptic54768's view, this would be the case.  The entirety of reality, save for god himself and whatever reality god occupies, is occupied in god's mind.

Which does raise another question - can god 'think' of something and have it not manifest in our reality?  Can god engage in a thought experiment without it actually affecting the rest of reality?
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
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Offline wheels5894

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #741 on: March 13, 2014, 01:15:37 PM »
I'm not keen on playing the game of everything only exists in the mind since common sense says it is false. However....

God and Thought experiments

Well, I thought about this and come to the following conclusions.

1. If god is an omni god, though experiments would be useless as he would know the answer and the question at the same time so would not have any thinking to do at all.

2. If god is one of those changeless gods some hymns talk about, then he could not do anything - think or act - as that would involve change on his part.

3. Well, supposing he could do a thought experiment - say what you it be like if I killed off mankind and started again? To do this, he would not be omniscient (see 1 above) and that would run the risk that he would get the results wrong and then act on them - you know, like give some crazy design for a boat that would break up in a storm to a guy he wanted to save all the animals. Uh, oh, that YHWH did that, didn't he.... ah, well, maybe an non-omniscient god isn't such a good idea anyway.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline SevenPatch

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #742 on: March 13, 2014, 01:28:13 PM »
Here's another point to consider.  If, under skep's world view, objective things exist in gawd's mind, doesn't that mean our brains exist in gawd's mind?  And if hallucinations are a product of our brains, don't they also exist in gawd's mind?

If that's true, maybe he doesn't believe that I exist.

Heavy, dude.  ;D

I could be wrong but I think skep believes that the material world does exist, but it only exists because "God" makes it exist which I don't know if that necessarily means it is in "God's" mind or not.

Unfortunately skep bought into the Berkeley crap which makes it's own different assumptions but the fact that they are assumptions also is dismissed and assumed to be a priori.  Quite a lot of hand waving to believe in something which pretends to not exist.
"Shut him up! We have a lot invested in this ride - SHUT HIM UP! Look at my furrows of worry! Look at my big bank account, and my family! This just HAS to be real!" - Bill Hicks

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #743 on: March 13, 2014, 01:37:10 PM »
Here's another point to consider.  If, under skep's world view, objective things exist in gawd's mind, doesn't that mean our brains exist in gawd's mind?  And if hallucinations are a product of our brains, don't they also exist in gawd's mind?

If that's true, maybe he doesn't believe that I exist.

Heavy, dude.  ;D

I could be wrong but I think skep believes that the material world does exist, but it only exists because "God" makes it exist which I don't know if that necessarily means it is in "God's" mind or not.

Unfortunately skep bought into the Berkeley crap which makes it's own different assumptions but the fact that they are assumptions also is dismissed and assumed to be a priori.  Quite a lot of hand waving to believe in something which pretends to not exist.

Well, Christian doctrine describes god as sustaining the world so I suppose one might take that as existing because god is there to keep it going. of course, such a view does rather make some unprovable assumptions from an ancient book but, heck, that's nothing to a Christian who knows what he says is right!
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Online screwtape

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #744 on: March 13, 2014, 01:47:19 PM »
All,

skeptic's posts now require moderator approval.  If he does not support his wild claims with good explanations and evidence, they will not be approved.  Please be patient while we work with him.

Thanks.
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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #745 on: March 13, 2014, 02:05:01 PM »
All,

skeptic's posts now require moderator approval.  If he does not support his wild claims with good explanations and evidence, they will not be approved.  Please be patient while we work with him.

Thanks.


Here's to hoping!
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #746 on: March 13, 2014, 02:07:01 PM »
All,

skeptic's posts now require moderator approval.  If he does not support his wild claims with good explanations and evidence, they will not be approved.  Please be patient while we work with him.

Thanks.


I'd appreciate it if you brought to his attention my debate challenge. He can suggest the topic, and I'll see if I'm knowledgeable enough in that area to sustain a debate.
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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #747 on: March 13, 2014, 02:25:27 PM »
He can still receive and send PMs, OAA. 
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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #748 on: March 13, 2014, 02:32:08 PM »
He can still receive and send PMs, OAA. 

I was hoping that, coming from the staff, he couldn't ignore it (the concept; he could still refuse, of course), but that's OK. I'm writing him a PM as we speak.
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #749 on: March 13, 2014, 03:00:58 PM »
Removed due to error
« Last Edit: March 13, 2014, 03:33:51 PM by Hatter23 »
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #750 on: March 13, 2014, 03:21:22 PM »
Edit: post removed due to irrelevance
« Last Edit: March 13, 2014, 03:36:41 PM by jdawg70 »
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #751 on: March 13, 2014, 03:30:00 PM »
Here's another point to consider.  If, under skep's world view, objective things exist in gawd's mind, doesn't that mean our brains exist in gawd's mind?  And if hallucinations are a product of our brains, don't they also exist in gawd's mind?

If that's true, maybe he doesn't believe that I exist.

Heavy, dude.  ;D

I could be wrong but I think skep believes that the material world does exist, but it only exists because "God" makes it exist which I don't know if that necessarily means it is in "God's" mind or not.

Unfortunately skep bought into the Berkeley crap which makes it's own different assumptions but the fact that they are assumptions also is dismissed and assumed to be a priori.  Quite a lot of hand waving to believe in something which pretends to not exist.

Just to be clear, I must sadly report that I worded my snarky comment wrong. I meant it to mean that maybe god doesn't believe I exist. It was funny when I thought it. Not funny the way I wrote it.

The only way Skep could be heavy would be if he was my brother. (People too young to know much about Simon and Garfunkle won't get that one.)
Not everyone is entitled to their opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #752 on: March 13, 2014, 03:36:16 PM »
People might remember The Hollies though.

Haha
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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #753 on: March 13, 2014, 03:40:55 PM »
Sorry of topic: PP I got it but it was the Hollies 1969. "He Ain't Heavy, He's My Brother" Written by Scott and Russell.
We theists have no evidence for our beliefs. So no amount of rational evidence will dissuade us from those beliefs. - JCisall

It would be pretty piss poor brainwashing, if the victims knew they were brainwashed, wouldn't it? - Screwtape. 04/12/12