Author Topic: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge  (Read 13929 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Jesuis

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 992
  • Darwins +10/-160
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
  • User posts join approval queueModerated
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #522 on: March 11, 2014, 12:50:41 AM »
^Even though, logically, if things can only exist within a mind, even other minds, then a deity's mind must exist inside of something else.

I think skeptic knows this.  He just doesn't want to deal with it, thus why he arbitrarily assumes that his god is exempt from the logic he so painstakingly drew up.  A textbook case of special pleadingWiki.

Yeah - I'm pretty sure this is the second thread where I've asked what mind or what reality god's mind occupies.  I doubt I'll get a response.
You would have to define what mind is and to put it in something else means you know what it is and how to make it work. But I doubt you do.
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline skeptic54768

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2365
  • Darwins +38/-403
  • Gender: Male
  • Christianity is the most beautiful religion.
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #523 on: March 11, 2014, 12:51:45 AM »
I think solipsism is an interesting philosophical position, but it's certainly not a particularly useful view for day-to-day life.

A pragmatic middle ground:  Perhaps this is all an illusion in the mind, but until such time as I can control the illusion I'll just play along as if it is real.

The belief that things can exist independently of all minds is what leads people to atheism. It makes people think that things can exist and happen without God. It is the very foundation of atheism. Berkeley knew this and squashed it with immaterialism.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2365
  • Darwins +38/-403
  • Gender: Male
  • Christianity is the most beautiful religion.
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #524 on: March 11, 2014, 12:53:26 AM »
As I mentioned in 504 good ideas will become mainstream. People who have genuine qualifications have the skills to work these things out, not the casual reader. That is why majority expert opinion is important.

This would be true....unless they have a huge interest in defending their presupposition of Old Earth at any cost. Then, they would just ignore it.

The age of the earth and moon does not depend on the methods of that article. There are better ways to work it out.

More important is that every scientist wants to prove the others wrong. There is no international plot to make up false science.

But the scientists individually don't want to be proven wrong at all. This can lead to fudged data.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Jesuis

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 992
  • Darwins +10/-160
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
  • User posts join approval queueModerated
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #525 on: March 11, 2014, 12:54:31 AM »
Well, no because most viruses are malicious. Virus writers have lots of criminal reasons to do it.
Religion fills a vacuum. The vacuum has to be filled. Even when people reject Christianity, they tend to pick up New Age shit, or start believing in Scientology or Eck.
Evolving Consciousness is a reality. Don't you agree?
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline Foxy Freedom

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1135
  • Darwins +79/-11
  • Gods become obsolete all the time.
    • Foxy Freedom on Doctor Who
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #526 on: March 11, 2014, 01:01:54 AM »
But the scientists individually don't want to be proven wrong at all. This can lead to fudged data.

It is because scientists don't want to be proven wrong that they are careful to be as accurate as possible. A scientist doesn't want him/herself to be proven wrong but to prove others wrong.
Neither Foxy Freedom nor any associates can be reached via WWGHA. Their official antitheist website is http://the6antitheist6guide6.blogspot.co.uk

The 2nd edition of the free ebook Devil or Delusion ? The danger of Christianity to Democracy Freedom and Science.       http://t.co/2d1KcJ9V

Offline Jesuis

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 992
  • Darwins +10/-160
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
  • User posts join approval queueModerated
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #527 on: March 11, 2014, 01:07:56 AM »
But the scientists individually don't want to be proven wrong at all. This can lead to fudged data.

It is because scientists don't want to be proven wrong that they are careful to be as accurate as possible. A scientist doesn't want him/herself to be proven wrong but to prove others wrong.
They have rejected the human conscious awareness in all its endeavors. Don't you find that odd?
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline Foxy Freedom

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1135
  • Darwins +79/-11
  • Gods become obsolete all the time.
    • Foxy Freedom on Doctor Who
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #528 on: March 11, 2014, 01:09:28 AM »
The belief that things can exist independently of all minds is what leads people to atheism. It makes people think that things can exist and happen without God. It is the very foundation of atheism. Berkeley knew this and squashed it with immaterialism.

Science proves that things exist. I answered this thoroughly in the other thread.

People who believe in gods usually think their gods created something that exists. Most Christians think that the universe really exists.

Neither Foxy Freedom nor any associates can be reached via WWGHA. Their official antitheist website is http://the6antitheist6guide6.blogspot.co.uk

The 2nd edition of the free ebook Devil or Delusion ? The danger of Christianity to Democracy Freedom and Science.       http://t.co/2d1KcJ9V

Offline jaimehlers

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 4607
  • Darwins +502/-11
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #529 on: March 11, 2014, 01:16:57 AM »
You are free to believe that there is an external world independent of all minds. The trouble is, you can't find any evidence that can conclusively prove this.
The question is not what one is free to believe.  One is free to believe anything, even things that blatantly contradict reality.  What matters is whether the beliefs one has actually match reality or not.

Quote from: skeptic54768
At least I know for a fact that things are only known through minds.
And how do you know that is actually a fact?  How do you prove it empirically when you've excluded any possibility of empirical proof?

Quote from: skeptic54768
I just don't go the extra step into an unproven assumption that things exist independently of minds. Occam's razor, remember?
Except your own belief contains assumptions that violate it.  For example, your statements that material things can only exist within a mind, that God is infinite and eternal, and that an infinite regress is impossible, are all assumptions that you must make in order for your beliefs to make sense.  So, while you do not make the assumption that things exist independently of minds, you do make several other assumptions instead, which violates the true point of Occam's razor.  Occam's razor isn't about not making assumptions, it's about minimizing the number of assumptions you make.

Quote from: skeptic54768
My view is still more empirical.
Sorry to say, but it isn't empirical at all.  You've basically excluded any possibility of empiricism because it's impossible to empirically prove anything inside a mind to begin with (it's subjective, not objective, and thus empiricism simply can't apply to it, because there are no senses within the mind to begin with).

Offline jaimehlers

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 4607
  • Darwins +502/-11
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #530 on: March 11, 2014, 01:26:42 AM »
And what is that human desire.
If I have that desire to be a Physicist or a Microbiologist is that a good desire and if I have that desire to know God is that a bad desire.
What is desire. Can I use it to find the Higgs Boson God particle or God itself?
Seems to me that someone wants to play more games with semantics instead of having a serious discussion.

I never said anything about desires being good or bad, so I would appreciate it if you would not try to put words in my mouth.  I simply spoke of the human desire to understand things, or at least attempt to understand them.

You see, physics and microbiology have been shown to be relevant fields of study.  We can learn things using them that can be objectively applied to the real world; they don't depend on whether people believe in them or not.  Can you say that the same is true of god-belief?  This has nothing to do with what you personally believe, so you know.  It has to do with being able to demonstrate that god-belief allows us to learn things that can be objectively applied to the real world and that don't depend on whether people believe in them or not.  And that means being able to actually demonstrate them, not just make fancy-sounding logical constructs to support your belief.

For example, scientists actually demonstrated the existence of the Higgs-Boson particle two years ago.  Has anyone ever demonstrated the existence of any god?

Online ParkingPlaces

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6100
  • Darwins +683/-3
  • Gender: Male
  • Hide and Seek World Champion since 1958!
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #531 on: March 11, 2014, 02:59:24 AM »
I think solipsism is an interesting philosophical position, but it's certainly not a particularly useful view for day-to-day life.

A pragmatic middle ground:  Perhaps this is all an illusion in the mind, but until such time as I can control the illusion I'll just play along as if it is real.

The belief that things can exist independently of all minds is what leads people to atheism. It makes people think that things can exist and happen without God. It is the very foundation of atheism. Berkeley knew this and squashed it with immaterialism.

Gee, Skep, are you actually allowed to proclaim Berkeley as the final word without discussion? If so, that's pretty cool. Such power. I'm impressed.
Not everyone is entitled to their opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline wheels5894

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2442
  • Darwins +106/-1
  • Gender: Male
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #532 on: March 11, 2014, 04:22:03 AM »
I wonder how many people really know about Berkeley's philosophy? Here's a link to a useful A C Grayling article about Berkeley. A paragraph worth quoting fro the article is -

Quote
A point that requires immediate emphasis is that Berkeley's denial of the existence of matter is not a denial of the existence of the external world and the physical objects it contains, such as tables and chairs, mountains and trees. Nor does Berkeley hold that the world exists only because it is thought of by any one or more finite minds. In one sense of the term "realist", indeed, Berkeley is a realist, in holding that the existence of the physical world is independent of finite minds, individually or collectively. What he argues instead is that its existence is not independent of Mind.

I thought Skep might like to comment after reading the whole article.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Foxy Freedom

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1135
  • Darwins +79/-11
  • Gods become obsolete all the time.
    • Foxy Freedom on Doctor Who
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #533 on: March 11, 2014, 04:59:02 AM »
I wonder how many people really know about Berkeley's philosophy? Here's a link to a useful A C Grayling article about Berkeley. A paragraph worth quoting fro the article is -

Quote
A point that requires immediate emphasis is that Berkeley's denial of the existence of matter is not a denial of the existence of the external world and the physical objects it contains, such as tables and chairs, mountains and trees. Nor does Berkeley hold that the world exists only because it is thought of by any one or more finite minds. In one sense of the term "realist", indeed, Berkeley is a realist, in holding that the existence of the physical world is independent of finite minds, individually or collectively. What he argues instead is that its existence is not independent of Mind.

I thought Skep might like to comment after reading the whole article.

I refuted Berkeley in the other thread so I don't see much point in going into detail again. What refutes his ideas is that they are based on an eighteenth century idea of a clockwork universe.
Neither Foxy Freedom nor any associates can be reached via WWGHA. Their official antitheist website is http://the6antitheist6guide6.blogspot.co.uk

The 2nd edition of the free ebook Devil or Delusion ? The danger of Christianity to Democracy Freedom and Science.       http://t.co/2d1KcJ9V

Offline Foxy Freedom

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1135
  • Darwins +79/-11
  • Gods become obsolete all the time.
    • Foxy Freedom on Doctor Who
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #534 on: March 11, 2014, 05:21:46 AM »
As I mentioned in 504 good ideas will become mainstream. People who have genuine qualifications have the skills to work these things out, not the casual reader. That is why majority expert opinion is important.

This would be true....unless they have a huge interest in defending their presupposition of Old Earth at any cost. Then, they would just ignore it.

I will explain why it is not just a question of ignoring an alternative opinion.

Mainstream science and Intelligent Design contradict each other. They cannot both be correct. If you say that ID is correct then mainstream science must be faking most of its results. Anyone knows that is not true because science works. For example, we know how isotopes decay over time because we can calculate how to use them in nuclear reactors and medicine. We understand the formation of rock layers and the sequence of life because we use it to find oil and gas.
Neither Foxy Freedom nor any associates can be reached via WWGHA. Their official antitheist website is http://the6antitheist6guide6.blogspot.co.uk

The 2nd edition of the free ebook Devil or Delusion ? The danger of Christianity to Democracy Freedom and Science.       http://t.co/2d1KcJ9V

Offline OldChurchGuy

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1478
  • Darwins +97/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • One of those theists who enjoys exchanging ideas
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #535 on: March 11, 2014, 05:40:53 AM »
Quote
How many times must I say it?

Christians don't around killing people like a bunch of savage barbarians.
Christians want peace, harmony, and tolerance for all.

You raise a good point.  Does this mean people who fight in wars (WWI, WWII, The Gulf Wars, Afghanistan, Iraq, for example) are not Christian?

Ever curious,

OldChurchGuy
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle - Philo of Alexandria

Whether one believes in a religion or not, and whether one believes in rebirth or not, there isn't anyone who doesn't appreciate kindness and compassion - Dalai Lama

Offline Angus and Alexis

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1487
  • Darwins +71/-24
  • Gender: Male
  • Residential Tulpamancer.
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #536 on: March 11, 2014, 06:07:12 AM »
The belief that things can exist independently of all minds is what leads people to atheism. It makes people think that things can exist and happen without God. It is the very foundation of atheism. Berkeley knew this and squashed it with immaterialism.

FOR THE LAST FUCKING TIME.
Atheism: Lack of a BELIEF in a deity.

That is it.

Anything else you try to say about "atheism" is irrelevant garble that you tore out of your bleeding ass.
Rule 1: No pooftas. Rule 2: No maltreating the theists, IF, anyone is watching. Rule 3: No pooftas. Rule 4: I do not want to see anyone NOT drinking after light out. Rule 5: No pooftas. Rule 6: There is NO...rule 6.

Online junebug72

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1999
  • Darwins +71/-80
  • Gender: Female
  • "Question Everything"
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #537 on: March 11, 2014, 06:13:52 AM »
Would you like it if you asked me a question and I just ignored it?  Do unto others right?

You are only encouraging atheism.  If that's your goal then props to you!

There is nowhere to run and hide here.  You can trust that I will stay on your heels.

JB
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine.html#XXwlhVIMq06zWg2d.99

Offline Angus and Alexis

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1487
  • Darwins +71/-24
  • Gender: Male
  • Residential Tulpamancer.
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #538 on: March 11, 2014, 06:37:14 AM »
You are only encouraging atheism.  If that's your goal then props to you!

JB

I know right?
The sheer stupidity of some people surely must deconvert some people to atheism.
Rule 1: No pooftas. Rule 2: No maltreating the theists, IF, anyone is watching. Rule 3: No pooftas. Rule 4: I do not want to see anyone NOT drinking after light out. Rule 5: No pooftas. Rule 6: There is NO...rule 6.

Offline Add Homonym

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2553
  • Darwins +204/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • I did haz jeezusburger™
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #539 on: March 11, 2014, 06:37:25 AM »
I think solipsism is an interesting philosophical position, but it's certainly not a particularly useful view for day-to-day life.

A pragmatic middle ground:  Perhaps this is all an illusion in the mind, but until such time as I can control the illusion I'll just play along as if it is real.

The belief that things can exist independently of all minds is what leads people to atheism. It makes people think that things can exist and happen without God. It is the very foundation of atheism. Berkeley knew this and squashed it with immaterialism.

Gee, Skep, are you actually allowed to proclaim Berkeley as the final word without discussion? If so, that's pretty cool. Such power. I'm impressed.

I think he just puts random stupid into a meaningless paragraph.

Quote
The belief that things can exist independently of all minds is what leads people to atheism.

And yet nobody has had this belief, except atheists, who are a largely small group of people, who came to this conclusion out of whimsy.

Note that Skep uses "ALL minds", implying that it is normal for people to believe in materialism without God. (God is the last mind.)

... and yet religious people since the dawn of time have believed in materialism. And has to be logically irrelevant to whether there is a God or not.

Quote
It makes people think that things can exist and happen without God.

No. People would only believe that, if they believed it to start with. It is likely that none of this crap would ever enter the discussion.

Quote
It is the very foundation of atheism.

No, it's a CONCLUSION that people come to, based (a) whimsy and (b) no evidence of God. And it can only be concluded if you start with that presumption, which almost nobody here does, except Skep's straw man.

Quote
Berkeley knew this and squashed it with immaterialism.

Great, so God is a liar. God in his famous book states that he made the world in 7 days, which is something he wouldn't bother to mention, if it was immaterial.

I believe Skep's fallacy is presuming that God has the same type of mind, as the people God created. That is to say, Berkeley is irrelevant to any discussion on the subject, esp. with Skep in it, because Skep has a third type of mind - the absolutely vacant mind.


I strive for clarity, but aim for confusion.

Online jdawg70

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1838
  • Darwins +309/-5
  • Ex-rosary squad
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #540 on: March 11, 2014, 08:07:00 AM »
^Even though, logically, if things can only exist within a mind, even other minds, then a deity's mind must exist inside of something else.

I think skeptic knows this.  He just doesn't want to deal with it, thus why he arbitrarily assumes that his god is exempt from the logic he so painstakingly drew up.  A textbook case of special pleadingWiki.

God is infinite and eternal. You can't have an infinite regress of things being minds-inside-minds because then you would have no beginning. So logic dictates there was a beginning, and it was the eternal God, and there we are.

So...everything must exist in a mind.  Except god.  Because that's special.

You can't have 'no beginning'.  Except god.  He can be eternal and have 'no beginning'.  Because that's special.

This is all just one big special plead.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
- Eddie Izzard

Offline DumpsterFire

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 382
  • Darwins +61/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • The Flaming Duck of Death!
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #541 on: March 11, 2014, 08:07:41 AM »
...logic dictates there was a beginning, and it was the eternal God, and there we are.

Do you not recognize the logical contradiction contained in this statement? The terms "beginning" and "eternal" are mutually exclusive. You can't have it both ways. It is illogical to insist that one thing requires a beginning while another does not.
Providing rednecks with sunblock since 1996.

I once met a man who claimed to be a genius, then boasted that he was a member of "Mesa".

Think for yourself.

Offline jaimehlers

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 4607
  • Darwins +502/-11
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #542 on: March 11, 2014, 09:55:49 AM »
^Even though, logically, if things can only exist within a mind, even other minds, then a deity's mind must exist inside of something else.

I think skeptic knows this.  He just doesn't want to deal with it, thus why he arbitrarily assumes that his god is exempt from the logic he so painstakingly drew up.  A textbook case of special pleadingWiki.

God is infinite and eternal. You can't have an infinite regress of things being minds-inside-minds because then you would have no beginning. So logic dictates there was a beginning, and it was the eternal God, and there we are.
As I said, textbook special pleading.  Your declaration that your god is eternal and infinite when we have not found a single thing that is in fact eternal and infinite is special pleading; your declaration that an infinite regress is impossible because there would be no beginning is also special pleading because you don't give a good reason to justify why a beginning is necessary.  Indeed, if your god doesn't need a beginning, then why would the universe need one?  The Big Bang is simply the statement that the universe appears to have been contained in a very small area immediately prior to it, and that we don't know what might have happened prior to that.

Offline Anfauglir

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6184
  • Darwins +407/-4
  • Gender: Male
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #543 on: March 11, 2014, 10:24:08 AM »
Nobody can ever be 100% sure that God does not exist.

I am.  Ready for a 1 on 1 debate where I show you how I am 100% certain?

Hi Skeptic.  Offer still stands.  You game?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Online SevenPatch

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 580
  • Darwins +90/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • A source will help me understand.
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #544 on: March 11, 2014, 10:57:23 AM »
How many times must I say it?

You mean how many times must you use your 'no true Christian' logical fallacy in order to protect yourself from having to deal with reality?  I don't know, as that depends on you, not me.  You could keep saying it until the day you die and it won't change reality.

Christians don't around killing people like a bunch of savage barbarians.
Christians want peace, harmony, and tolerance for all.

History says otherwise.

Look, if you want to come to terms with the atrocities commited by Christians in the past and simply say those Christians were wrong, then you have a logical starting point.  To pretend that you belong to a group that has never done any wrong is delusional.  I got some shocking news for you skep, you are a human being and human beings are not perfect.  No religion is perfect, no lack of religion is perfect and the reason why is because humans are not perfect.
"Shut him up! We have a lot invested in this ride - SHUT HIM UP! Look at my furrows of worry! Look at my big bank account, and my family! This just HAS to be real!" - Bill Hicks

Offline skeptic54768

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2365
  • Darwins +38/-403
  • Gender: Male
  • Christianity is the most beautiful religion.
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #545 on: March 11, 2014, 11:03:59 AM »
How many times must I say it?

You mean how many times must you use your 'no true Christian' logical fallacy in order to protect yourself from having to deal with reality?  I don't know, as that depends on you, not me.  You could keep saying it until the day you die and it won't change reality.

Christians don't around killing people like a bunch of savage barbarians.
Christians want peace, harmony, and tolerance for all.

History says otherwise.

Look, if you want to come to terms with the atrocities commited by Christians in the past and simply say those Christians were wrong, then you have a logical starting point.  To pretend that you belong to a group that has never done any wrong is delusional.  I got some shocking news for you skep, you are a human being and human beings are not perfect.  No religion is perfect, no lack of religion is perfect and the reason why is because humans are not perfect.

I am saying that you would have an excellent point if there was no criteria on being a Christian. But, there is criteria. A Christian is someone who believes in Jesus and tries to live as close to a sinless life as possible. Of course we slip up here and there but to go around killing people willy-nilly is NOT criteria for being a Christian.

Just like if a white man put a feather on his head and went around saying "I'm an Native American" would not prove he's an indian. People would say "but you don't fit the criteria of Native American" and they would be 100% right.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Nam

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 11679
  • Darwins +290/-80
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm on the road less traveled...
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #546 on: March 11, 2014, 11:12:01 AM »
Yes, because that's the definition of Native Americans: feathers on their head.

-Nam
This is my signature "Nam", don't I have nice typing skills?

Offline Boots

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1236
  • Darwins +94/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Living the Dream
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #547 on: March 11, 2014, 11:15:15 AM »
I am saying that you would have an excellent point if there was no criteria on being a Christian. But, there is criteria. A Christian is someone who believes in Jesus and tries to live as close to a sinless life as possible. Of course we slip up here and there but to go around killing people willy-nilly is NOT criteria for being a Christian.

Just like if a white man put a feather on his head and went around saying "I'm an Native American" would not prove he's an indian. People would say "but you don't fit the criteria of Native American" and they would be 100% right.

1) Who are you to determine the criteria for xianity?  What of the folks who handle snakes, and sincerely belive THAT is the true measure of your godliness, purity, and "true xianity-ness?"  What makes them wrong and you right?

2) Care to respond to Anfauglir 2 posts above your last reply? (invitation to 1-on-1 debate)
* Religion: institutionalized superstition, period.

"Many of my ultra-conservative Republican friends...have trouble accepting the idea God is not a Republican. " ~OldChurchGuy

"We humans may never figure out the truth, but I prefer trying to find it over pretending we know it."  ~ParkingPlaces

Online jdawg70

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1838
  • Darwins +309/-5
  • Ex-rosary squad
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #548 on: March 11, 2014, 11:15:29 AM »
I am saying that you would have an excellent point if there was no criteria on being a Christian. But, there is criteria. A Christian is someone who believes in Jesus and tries to live as close to a sinless life as possible. Of course we slip up here and there but to go around killing people willy-nilly is NOT criteria for being a Christian.
OK, so the criteria is 'believes in Jesus' and 'tries to live a sinless life'.

Is there some sort of definitive 'magnitude' of 'slip up' where someone who fits the above 2 criteria screws up enough where they lose their Christian card?  Killing?  Murder?  Premarital sex?  Lying?  Incorrect interpretation of the biblical text?  Praying incorrectly?  Listening to the wrong religious leaders?  Hearing the voice of god telling you to kill a child?

And are you a proper authority to establish when someone 'slips up' enough to warrant disassociation in this club?

Quote
Just like if a white man put a feather on his head and went around saying "I'm an Native American" would not prove he's an indian. People would say "but you don't fit the criteria of Native American" and they would be 100% right.
And if a Native American did something that the other Native Americans didn't like, do they get to kick him/her out of their club too?  Or would that person still be a Native American that simply did/does something the others don't appreciate?
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
- Eddie Izzard

Offline Mrjason

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1141
  • Darwins +82/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #549 on: March 11, 2014, 11:19:48 AM »

I am saying that you would have an excellent point if there was no criteria on being a Christian. But, there is criteria. A Christian is someone who believes in Jesus and tries to live as close to a sinless life as possible.

You mean like Pope Urban IIWiki

 
Of course we slip up here and there but to go around killing people willy-nilly is NOT criteria for being a Christian.

not according to the Council of ClermontWiki


Offline skeptic54768

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2365
  • Darwins +38/-403
  • Gender: Male
  • Christianity is the most beautiful religion.
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #550 on: March 11, 2014, 11:27:19 AM »
I am saying that you would have an excellent point if there was no criteria on being a Christian. But, there is criteria. A Christian is someone who believes in Jesus and tries to live as close to a sinless life as possible. Of course we slip up here and there but to go around killing people willy-nilly is NOT criteria for being a Christian.
OK, so the criteria is 'believes in Jesus' and 'tries to live a sinless life'.

Is there some sort of definitive 'magnitude' of 'slip up' where someone who fits the above 2 criteria screws up enough where they lose their Christian card?  Killing?  Murder?  Premarital sex?  Lying?  Incorrect interpretation of the biblical text?  Praying incorrectly?  Listening to the wrong religious leaders?  Hearing the voice of god telling you to kill a child?

And are you a proper authority to establish when someone 'slips up' enough to warrant disassociation in this club?

Quote
Just like if a white man put a feather on his head and went around saying "I'm an Native American" would not prove he's an indian. People would say "but you don't fit the criteria of Native American" and they would be 100% right.
And if a Native American did something that the other Native Americans didn't like, do they get to kick him/her out of their club too?  Or would that person still be a Native American that simply did/does something the others don't appreciate?

No, the proper analogy would be the white man doing something in the name of Native Americans and the Native Americans saying, "He's not Native American."
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)