Author Topic: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge  (Read 19824 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline skeptic54768

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2745
  • Darwins +53/-444
  • Gender: Male
  • Christianity is the most beautiful religion.
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #464 on: March 10, 2014, 12:19:40 AM »
Explain to me why there aren't two logical positions. Either the world is true, or false. If it is false, then there may be nothing to learn externally, and Skep is an illusion of my mind. If it is true, then we can learn things from the environment. Explain why I am compelled to accept that the material world is false, because I cannot prove it to be true. The observation that I'm conscious is not yet incompatible with materialism.

Because that is what you do with God, so you have to remain consistent otherwise you're just jumping around willy-nilly.

Incidentally, I have no proof that my mind exists. I appear to be conscious, but that is also likely to be an illusion. I appear to be a construct of a material world. Atoms build brain. If there is no external world, then atoms could not have built a brain. With that deception in mind, then why should I accept that I exist? If I accept that I am being deliberately fooled, then why should I take that bait, either?

Are the people in your dreams made up of atoms? What if you had a dream of someone talking about how they are made up of atoms? Would they be made up of atoms?


You made it clear that you have Berkley style "skepticism", that you cannot prove that you exist physically. Bully for you. In cases where you cannot prove one way of the other, you should examine both.

As such, you name skep is a word game, and nothing more. Berkley's skepticism is not skeptical of its own position.

What we know for sure (based on empiricism) is that everything is known and experienced through a mind. So why go a step further to an unproven assertion and claim there is a mind-independent reality?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Add Homonym

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2756
  • Darwins +222/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • I can haz jeezusburger™
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #465 on: March 10, 2014, 12:20:44 AM »
No. It's a lie that they represent "hoaxes" that were put into text books because "they" were trying to "prop up" evolution.

Nebraska : mistake not hoax (it was a single pig tooth)
Embryo: semi-mistake not hoax, debunked by people who also made a mistake
Moths: maybe poor science (but still probably true), with photos made by photographers who couldn't get moths to do what they needed.
Piltdown: hoax, probably put in some text books, but by people who didn't know it was a hoax.

So some people didn't know they were hoaxes?
Why were these scientists so sloppy with their fact checking?

Doesn't matter. Slop is not proof of either (1) conspiracy (2) need to do it (3) anything to do with falsifiability. Slop is always going to happen, no matter how good the theory.

Quote
I guess falsifying it would be to produce an organism that is not irreducibly complex.

Well, that slipped by your brain, didn't it?

I'll repeat: you just stated (by usage) that you believe in Irreducible Complexity. IR is a criterion for the falsifiability of evolution. You said in a previous post that evolution could not be falsified. Which contrary position would you like to adopt in your next post?

Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline skeptic54768

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2745
  • Darwins +53/-444
  • Gender: Male
  • Christianity is the most beautiful religion.
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #466 on: March 10, 2014, 12:24:26 AM »
No. It's a lie that they represent "hoaxes" that were put into text books because "they" were trying to "prop up" evolution.

Nebraska : mistake not hoax (it was a single pig tooth)
Embryo: semi-mistake not hoax, debunked by people who also made a mistake
Moths: maybe poor science (but still probably true), with photos made by photographers who couldn't get moths to do what they needed.
Piltdown: hoax, probably put in some text books, but by people who didn't know it was a hoax.

So some people didn't know they were hoaxes?
Why were these scientists so sloppy with their fact checking?

Doesn't matter. Slop is not proof of either (1) conspiracy (2) need to do it (3) anything to do with falsifiability. Slop is always going to happen, no matter how good the theory.

Quote
I guess falsifying it would be to produce an organism that is not irreducibly complex.

Well, that slipped by your brain, didn't it?

I'll repeat: you just stated (by usage) that you believe in Irreducible Complexity. IR is a criterion for the falsifiability of evolution. You said in a previous post that evolution could not be falsified. Which contrary position would you like to adopt in your next post?

It was my impression that ID'ers do accept evolution, just not random blind unguided evolution.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Online jaimehlers

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 5088
  • Darwins +586/-20
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #467 on: March 10, 2014, 12:28:39 AM »
Yes, only minds and their mental perceptions exist. Objective reality exists as things in God's mind and things everyone else can see and agree on, such as California and trees. Things such as hallucinations and mind altering drugs are subjective and based on the individual mind. This is why not everyone can see a hallucination except for the one person. That is a big problem for materialism.
So, it seems that you're stating that atheists must be solipsists because you don't think material things exist.  Sounds like you're making the typical mistake of projecting what you believe onto other people.  You see, just because you don't think material things exist doesn't mean they don't actually exist, and you can't make people abide by your philosophical convictions and agree with you that they don't exist.

Offline Add Homonym

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2756
  • Darwins +222/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • I can haz jeezusburger™
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #468 on: March 10, 2014, 12:30:33 AM »
Explain to me why there aren't two logical positions. Either the world is true, or false. If it is false, then there may be nothing to learn externally, and Skep is an illusion of my mind. If it is true, then we can learn things from the environment. Explain why I am compelled to accept that the material world is false, because I cannot prove it to be true. The observation that I'm conscious is not yet incompatible with materialism.

Because that is what you do with God, so you have to remain consistent otherwise you're just jumping around willy-nilly.

Incidentally, I have no proof that my mind exists. I appear to be conscious, but that is also likely to be an illusion. I appear to be a construct of a material world. Atoms build brain. If there is no external world, then atoms could not have built a brain. With that deception in mind, then why should I accept that I exist? If I accept that I am being deliberately fooled, then why should I take that bait, either?

Are the people in your dreams made up of atoms? What if you had a dream of someone talking about how they are made up of atoms? Would they be made up of atoms?


You made it clear that you have Berkley style "skepticism", that you cannot prove that you exist physically. Bully for you. In cases where you cannot prove one way of the other, you should examine both.

As such, you name skep is a word game, and nothing more. Berkley's skepticism is not skeptical of its own position.

What we know for sure (based on empiricism) is that everything is known and experienced through a mind. So why go a step further to an unproven assertion and claim there is a mind-independent reality?

Well, you made a complete dog's breakfast of that, didn't you? It's so bad, I don't know if you deserve a reply.

But here goes.

Quote
Because that is what you do with God, so you have to remain consistent otherwise you're just jumping around willy-nilly.

Oh really, so I should stick with the position that you(skeppo) endorse, for me, even though it could be wrong? Explain why I should stick with a position that could be wrong.

Explain how two options, are willy-nilly. Since I never give much thought to the solipsist position, I don't see much willy.

Quote
Are the people in your dreams made up of atoms?

*Sigh*. People in dreams are in fucking dreams.

I think you mean to point out, as usual, that I cannot tell. I repeat that: exploration of the external world reveals a consistent position that appears to build "me" from external atoms. We (and my delusions) have not managed to fault that position yet. YOU of course, insist that it has been faulted in some way, because you can find another option. Explain how materialism has been proven to be false, and solipsism has been proven to be true. Explain and prove what mechanisms are holding up my self, and fooling me into believing that I am made from external things.

The Christian position is a mixture of materialism and immaterialism.

Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline skeptic54768

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2745
  • Darwins +53/-444
  • Gender: Male
  • Christianity is the most beautiful religion.
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #469 on: March 10, 2014, 12:31:16 AM »
So, it seems that you're stating that atheists must be solipsists because you don't think material things exist.  Sounds like you're making the typical mistake of projecting what you believe onto other people.  You see, just because you don't think material things exist doesn't mean they don't actually exist, and you can't make people abide by your philosophical convictions and agree with you that they don't exist.

And likewise, you can't get people to just accept that material things exist outside of minds.

I guess we are on opposite sides of the fence locked in a standstill.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Add Homonym

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2756
  • Darwins +222/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • I can haz jeezusburger™
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #470 on: March 10, 2014, 12:31:54 AM »
It was my impression that ID'ers do accept evolution, just not random blind unguided evolution.

Oh, right. So you are admitting that some parts of evolution can be falsified, and some can't. Which bits can't be falsified?
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline skeptic54768

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2745
  • Darwins +53/-444
  • Gender: Male
  • Christianity is the most beautiful religion.
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #471 on: March 10, 2014, 12:36:15 AM »
Oh, right. So you are admitting that some parts of evolution can be falsified, and some can't. Which bits can't be falsified?

That does seem like a bit of a blunder, a teeny tiny miniscule mistake.  :-\
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2745
  • Darwins +53/-444
  • Gender: Male
  • Christianity is the most beautiful religion.
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #472 on: March 10, 2014, 12:39:53 AM »
I think you mean to point out, as usual, that I cannot tell. I repeat that: exploration of the external world reveals a consistent position that appears to build "me" from external atoms. We (and my delusions) have not managed to fault that position yet. YOU of course, insist that it has been faulted in some way, because you can find another option. Explain how materialism has been proven to be false, and solipsism has been proven to be true. Explain and prove what mechanisms are holding up my self, and fooling me into believing that I am made from external things.

The Christian position is a mixture of materialism and immaterialism.

Atoms are simply ideas in the mind.

You certainly can't prove that atoms can exist outside of minds because you will be circularly using your mind to explain it.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Astreja

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3045
  • Darwins +270/-3
  • Gender: Female
  • Agnostic goddess with Clue-by-Four™
    • The Springy Goddess
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #473 on: March 10, 2014, 12:48:06 AM »
I think solipsism is an interesting philosophical position, but it's certainly not a particularly useful view for day-to-day life.

A pragmatic middle ground:  Perhaps this is all an illusion in the mind, but until such time as I can control the illusion I'll just play along as if it is real.
Reality Checkroom — Not Responsible for Lost Articles

Offline Foxy Freedom

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1563
  • Darwins +105/-12
  • Why is it so difficult to say you don't know?
    • Foxy Freedom on Doctor Who
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #474 on: March 10, 2014, 12:55:23 AM »
I have never said that I am a solipsist. I said that solipsism is the only logical position for the atheist because only you know that your mind exists. You don't have any proof of anyone else's mind. They could all be philosophical zombies.

My position is immaterialism, the complete opposite of materialism.

Solipsism is not logical for anyone. Science proves the existence of the external universe independently of mind. Why are you saying that atheists are materialists and that materialism is the same as solipsism?

Atoms are simply ideas in the mind.

You certainly can't prove that atoms can exist outside of minds because you will be circularly using your mind to explain it.

Atoms can be seen and moved around now. Substances can be designed.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2014, 01:02:18 AM by Foxy Freedom »
The Foxy Freedom antitheist website is http://the6antitheist6guide6.blogspot.co.uk

The 2nd edition of the free ebook Devil or Delusion ? The danger of Christianity to Democracy Freedom and Science.       http://t.co/2d1KcJ9V

Offline Angus and Alexis

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1487
  • Darwins +71/-24
  • Gender: Male
  • Residential Tulpamancer.
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #475 on: March 10, 2014, 05:22:22 AM »
I guess falsifying it would be to produce an organism that is not irreducibly complex.

Can you find any? ;D
Rule 1: No pooftas. Rule 2: No maltreating the theists, IF, anyone is watching. Rule 3: No pooftas. Rule 4: I do not want to see anyone NOT drinking after light out. Rule 5: No pooftas. Rule 6: There is NO...rule 6.

Offline junebug72

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2219
  • Darwins +73/-92
  • Gender: Female
  • "Question Everything"
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #476 on: March 10, 2014, 05:42:26 AM »
Skeptic are you a Christian?

Curious,

JB
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine.html#XXwlhVIMq06zWg2d.99

Offline Mrjason

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1345
  • Darwins +97/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #477 on: March 10, 2014, 05:48:56 AM »
Jerry BergmanWiki Gosh he looks really like he represents the mainstream in science today! The PhD from Columbia Pacific UniversityWiki looks like it must have been hard to get!

Actually it probably would be quite difficult to get a PhD from CPU as they were closed down for being a degree mill:
Quote
In December 1999, the Marin County Superior Court ordered Columbia Pacific University (CPU), of Novato, California, to cease operations within the State [1,2]. On February 21, 2001, the judge denied further appeals and entered a final judgment ordering CPU to:
•Pay a civil penalty of $10,000 to the Bureau for Private Postsecondary and Vocational Education for violating Sections 17200 et seq. and Sections 17500 et seq. of the California Business and Professions Code
•Permanently stop operating or offering any educational programs in California.
•Notify all students enrolled from June 25, 1997 to December 1, 2000 of the injunction and of their right to a refund.
•Provide refunds to all students within 30 days of their request.
•Provide a status report to the Court by June 30, 2001.

Failure to comply with the above order in California would constitute contempt of court, which is punishable by a fine and/or imprisonment [3]. CPU moved to Montana but closed about a year later.
[1]
 1. http://www.quackwatch.com/04ConsumerEducation/News/cpu.html

Offline Mrjason

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1345
  • Darwins +97/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #478 on: March 10, 2014, 06:04:58 AM »
Interesting.  So the content can be simply rejected out of hand?

Ever curious,

OldChurchGuy

If someone has obtained fake qualifications their work should be viewed with a high degree of cynicism as this calls into question not only the quality of their work but also their personal integrity.

Offline wheels5894

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2691
  • Darwins +114/-1
  • Gender: Male
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #479 on: March 10, 2014, 06:20:34 AM »
This is interesting in regard to Bergman.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Angus and Alexis

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1487
  • Darwins +71/-24
  • Gender: Male
  • Residential Tulpamancer.
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #480 on: March 10, 2014, 08:10:49 AM »
Skeptic are you a Christian?

Curious,

JB

He is a christian, and apparently, so is Jesuis.
Rule 1: No pooftas. Rule 2: No maltreating the theists, IF, anyone is watching. Rule 3: No pooftas. Rule 4: I do not want to see anyone NOT drinking after light out. Rule 5: No pooftas. Rule 6: There is NO...rule 6.

Online jaimehlers

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 5088
  • Darwins +586/-20
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #481 on: March 10, 2014, 08:36:48 AM »
And likewise, you can't get people to just accept that material things exist outside of minds.
I don't need people to accept that, though.  If they want to think that there's nothing but the mind, well, I find that kind of silly, but it doesn't bother me because they still have to play by the same rules that I do.  That's what science is about, discovering those rules and how they work, and how we can make use of them.

Quote from: skeptic54768
I guess we are on opposite sides of the fence locked in a standstill.
More accurately, you've fenced yourself into a specific belief and are zealously guarding your own fence from interlopers who might try to remove it.  And I'm on the outside, looking in.  That's what happens when you stop asking yourself if you could be wrong about your belief.

The fact is, I don't really consider immaterialism to be a viable position, especially since all the evidence we have suggests otherwise.  That doesn't mean I don't think there are immaterial things (for example, energy is immaterial, although not in thesense that you mean), I just don't hold that the entire universe is contained within a mind - because what contains the mind?  Our minds are contained inside our brains, and there is no evidence whatsoever that a mind can exist outside of a physical structure.  I know you hold otherwise, but you've argued yourself into a corner that you simply can't get out of, because by ruling out the probability that material objects actually do exist without a mind, you've also ruled out any possibility of finding evidence that might support your position.

Offline Boots

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1338
  • Darwins +100/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Living the Dream
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #482 on: March 10, 2014, 08:41:08 AM »
Atoms are simply ideas in the mind.

You certainly can't prove that atoms can exist outside of minds because you will be circularly using your mind to explain it.

How about have someone throw a baseball at your face, and you don't duck, proving you believe the baseball's atoms don't exist outside your mind.
It's one of the reasons I'm an atheist today.  I decided to take my religion seriously, and that's when it started to fall apart for me.
~jdawg70

Offline jdawg70

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2274
  • Darwins +413/-8
  • Ex-rosary squad
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #483 on: March 10, 2014, 09:13:59 AM »
Sure. When I prayed for the safety of family members and one got into a car accident. But, it turned out to be a blessing because the family member got laid off due to being out of work for so long and found an even better job with better pay and more Christian co-workers.

So if the petitioner in my example didn't pray for the dying child to get healed, but rather prayed for the dying child to remain safe, would that have been an appropriate prayer?  Why or why not?

I guess the answer to this question is:
That would still not be an appropriate prayer, because then you'd be able to tell if prayer meant anything.

Or perhaps:
That would still not be an appropriate prayer, because wanting a child to not die is selfish.

Maybe:
That would be an appropriate prayer, but 'no response' is the only valid answer that god can give in that case.

How about:
That would be an appropriate prayer, and the child would be healed, unless someone were looking.

Or:
That would still not be an appropriate prayer, because that person isn't skeptic54768.

And of course:
That would be an appropriate prayer, but of the type that would likely be intercepted by a demon.  God would be powerless to stop that noise.

There's also:
That would be an appropriate prayer, but since god doesn't give a sh*t about people, and is the lord and ruler of them all, he can ignore the prayers, let the child die, and still be considered a morally good agent.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

- Eddie Izzard

http://deepaksducttape.wordpress.com/

Offline jdawg70

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2274
  • Darwins +413/-8
  • Ex-rosary squad
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #484 on: March 10, 2014, 09:18:14 AM »
Atoms are simply ideas in the mind.

You certainly can't prove that atoms can exist outside of minds because you will be circularly using your mind to explain it.

What mind does god's mind occupy again?
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

- Eddie Izzard

http://deepaksducttape.wordpress.com/

Offline mrbiscoop

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 950
  • Darwins +32/-2
  • Faith is not a virtue!
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #485 on: March 10, 2014, 09:20:49 AM »
  Okay, so both atoms and baseballs exist outside your head. &)
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me.
              -Emo Philips

Offline Graybeard

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6777
  • Darwins +546/-19
  • Gender: Male
  • Is this going somewhere?
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #486 on: March 10, 2014, 09:26:34 AM »

Interesting.  So the content can be simply rejected out of hand?

Ever curious,

OldChurchGuy
The man seems to be obsessed at the cost of accuracy: even "talk origins" feels he is unacceptable as a lecturer and he was denied tenure and dismissed from his position.

Reading the whole article, you gather that Jerry Bergman is either not rational or allows his personal beliefs to lead his research so as to confirm his beliefs - never a good sign. http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/bergman-and-racism.html

I suppose that it would be possible to filter out the good from the bad, but the effort would not be worth it when there are reliable commentators.
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline wheels5894

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2691
  • Darwins +114/-1
  • Gender: Male
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #487 on: March 10, 2014, 09:27:05 AM »
Atoms are simply ideas in the mind.

You certainly can't prove that atoms can exist outside of minds because you will be circularly using your mind to explain it.

How about have someone throw a baseball at your face, and you don't duck, proving you believe the baseball's atoms don't exist outside your mind.

It doesn't take anything so drastic to show this up for what it is.

Skeptic, you have been using the Internet. This has not only involved atoms making up your computer, desk, house etc. but also lots of electrons rushing down cables too. In your mind you created a message and then, using solid material, you typed the message and sent it onwards through the Internet. Now we can all read the message in different countries in the world and it could even be read on the Space Station. All of those different people, due to the action of atoms and electrons can see what you wanted them to - exactly.

If all these atoms and electrons were just something in your mind you would not be able to pass the message on to everyone here as well as anyone we don't know who looks into the forum. How could you explain that while holding to the position that everything is merely in the mind?

Oh, and a final thing. I agree with you on one thing - that god you talk about - he is in your mind; an invention of your mind. He has no existence outwith your mind. Every believer is the same - they have the god of their choice as an idea in their heads. That explains why every believer comes up with different ideas of their god and what he wants!
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline DVZ3

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1370
  • Darwins +41/-8
  • Gender: Male
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #488 on: March 10, 2014, 09:31:16 AM »
To original OP - If one were to program a robot to perform a set of tasks I would not inherently put in logic that doesn't and shouldn't pertain to the program.  These sets of logic that do not pertain to the task at hand are known today as a "virus" creating functions that don't pertain to the task but actually cause interruptions to a logical conclusions.

Religion is a virus that has no basis to be programmed. The outcome will be the result naturally unless a virus interrupts the system.

Do me a favor and try to play a game where you purposely put in something that shouldn't be there in the first place....
« Last Edit: March 10, 2014, 09:41:05 AM by DVZ3 »
Hguols: "Its easier for me to believe that a God created everything...."

Offline DVZ3

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1370
  • Darwins +41/-8
  • Gender: Male
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #489 on: March 10, 2014, 09:32:54 AM »
Trust me... We're working on the next generation of artificial intelligence... I can assure you, we're not purposely injecting code that will result NULL results to waste time with nothing as the outcome.

When it comes to logic, even computers will seem more intelligent than Christians to be sure.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2014, 09:34:34 AM by DVZ3 »
Hguols: "Its easier for me to believe that a God created everything...."

Offline ParkingPlaces

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6625
  • Darwins +793/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • If you are religious, you are misconcepted
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #490 on: March 10, 2014, 09:37:38 AM »
Is that an argumentum ad crappy facility??

Most of it was. A real argument was in there too, but don't worry about it. I wouldn't want to change your modus operandi. Diss and swerve, I believe it is called.
Jesus, the cracker flavored treat!

Offline jdawg70

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2274
  • Darwins +413/-8
  • Ex-rosary squad
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #491 on: March 10, 2014, 09:40:16 AM »
Atoms are simply ideas in the mind.

You certainly can't prove that atoms can exist outside of minds because you will be circularly using your mind to explain it.

How about have someone throw a baseball at your face, and you don't duck, proving you believe the baseball's atoms don't exist outside your mind.

It doesn't take anything so drastic to show this up for what it is.

Skeptic, you have been using the Internet. This has not only involved atoms making up your computer, desk, house etc. but also lots of electrons rushing down cables too. In your mind you created a message and then, using solid material, you typed the message and sent it onwards through the Internet. Now we can all read the message in different countries in the world and it could even be read on the Space Station. All of those different people, due to the action of atoms and electrons can see what you wanted them to - exactly.

If all these atoms and electrons were just something in your mind you would not be able to pass the message on to everyone here as well as anyone we don't know who looks into the forum. How could you explain that while holding to the position that everything is merely in the mind?

Oh, and a final thing. I agree with you on one thing - that god you talk about - he is in your mind; an invention of your mind. He has no existence outwith your mind. Every believer is the same - they have the god of their choice as an idea in their heads. That explains why every believer comes up with different ideas of their god and what he wants!

I don't think this addresses skeptic54768's claim though.  He implicitly concedes a shared external reality - for the most part.  You, me, his computer, that Malaysian plane that apparently crashed on a magic island with malicious black smoke...he implicitly acknowledges that these are all separate, independent entities.  He just presupposes that the reality they occupy is a thinking sentience.  According to him, everything that exists must do so within the construct of thinking sentience.  Because...reasons.

Well, everything except god apparently.  Because...reasons.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

- Eddie Izzard

http://deepaksducttape.wordpress.com/

Online jaimehlers

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 5088
  • Darwins +586/-20
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #492 on: March 10, 2014, 09:46:54 AM »
^Even though, logically, if things can only exist within a mind, even other minds, then a deity's mind must exist inside of something else.

I think skeptic knows this.  He just doesn't want to deal with it, thus why he arbitrarily assumes that his god is exempt from the logic he so painstakingly drew up.  A textbook case of special pleadingWiki.