Author Topic: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge  (Read 14172 times)

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Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #290 on: March 06, 2014, 01:25:28 PM »
"prove there are no gods (or demons) who use Yahweh as a (literary) avatar".
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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #291 on: March 06, 2014, 01:39:41 PM »
Sorry it doesn't mention the devil, try again.

I am in shock that you guys don't know a basic Bible story.

God created Satan but Satan rebelled out of his own free will. When you allow free will, you allow the possibility of people doing things that you don't like.

If your son/daughter gets a DWI, do you blame yourself for bringing the child into the world? Or do you blame your son/daughter for his/her own decision to drive drunk?

Don't know. Neither of my kids ever got a DWI. Who should I blame. Was it all my fault?

I know, I know, the bible doesn't allow for doing it right in the first place, so you have no answer. I was just teasing.
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #292 on: March 06, 2014, 01:54:48 PM »
Not necessarily. I have been around the block in my time on Earth and I have seen friends who grew up in nice stable families who got DWI's. I know a few people who got more than one, but this was about 10-15 years ago. Their parents were in tears.

And on the flipside, I have also known people who got thrown out of their house at 18 because they refused to get a job. Their parents washed their hands of them and said, "Have a nice life."

I will never forget one time I had a good friend who got a DWI and he told me to meet him at his house because he wanted me there when he told his parents. He thought it would soften the blow. It was around 2 AM. So I met him at his house and we went inside and he walked into his parents room and turned on the light and said, "i got another DWI." His dad jumped out of bed and screamed, "How could you be so fucking stupid?!?! ANOTHER ONE?!?!?!" and he threw a lamp against the wall and it shattered and he said, "tell your friend to get the fuck out of this house, we have to have a long talk."

That was a scary moment.

No commentary on the first part of my response to you regarding the whole 'free will in heaven/only doing good/Satan as a counter-example to your previous claim' thing?

And...I think we bumped into something of a disconnect with the whole DWI thing.  Your response doesn't really address what I was saying, but I think your main point is that children raised in a good home is no guarantee that they will be good people, and people raised in a sh*tty home is no guarantee that they will be bad people.  I agree with that.

Teaching a child arithmetic is no guarantee that the child will grow to understand arithmetic or use it correctly.  Not teaching a child arithmetic is also no guarantee that the child will grow without any understanding of arithmetic or will fail to use it correctly.  But if it is my responsibility to teach this child arithmetic, in the same way that it is assumed that it is the responsibility of a parent to raise a child to be able to independently engage and interact with the world, would you claim that I would not be partly to blame for a child who grows up not being able to understand arithmetic if I disregarded my responsibility and did not teach the child arithmetic?
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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #293 on: March 06, 2014, 02:00:00 PM »
skeptic54768, you're lucky I'm not vindictive, unlike what you believe, or I would've created Hell and tossed you in it for not believing in and bowing down to Me. The least you could do is try to disprove My godness. You'd fail, but at least you could try.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #294 on: March 06, 2014, 02:06:59 PM »
Here is a page that was already explained by William Lane Craig:

http://carm.org/does-god-create-evil

Sorry.  This is unacceptable.  If we wanted to argue with Craig, we would.  Please use your own words and include references where necessary. 

(Also, Craig blatantly lies in the second paragraph implying "rah" in that context could mean any one of those things.)
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #295 on: March 06, 2014, 02:07:25 PM »

Don't know. Neither of my kids ever got a DWI. Who should I blame. Was it all my fault?


Well, if you had perfect foreknowledge of the result of every action and word you said and did not do anything different, yes. You would be at fault.

But that perfect foreknowledge thing is something the only shows up in fiction, like bronze age fables.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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Offline Aaron123

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #296 on: March 06, 2014, 02:39:47 PM »
I'm going to repost a few questions of mine, since they seem to have gone unnoticed.  Considering the topic of this thread, I think its important that they get answered.

First, on the opening "atheist is a belief" statement, has skeptic54768 ever given a clear-cut explanation of what definition of the word "belief" he is using?  I know I tried asking him before but I don't think I got a clear-cut answer out of him (and had to prod a little just to get him to comment at all on this).

Second, does this whole "non-belief belief" thing applies only to gods, or does it works on anything I have a non-belief on?  For example, I do not believe that toothpaste can sing.  Does this mean I have a non-belief belief about singing toothpaste?  After all, you cannot prove that toothpaste do not sing.

Bear in mind, that when I ask for "a clear-cut definition" of the word 'belief', I am thinking along the line of "By 'belief', the exact definition I'm using is..." followed by said exact definition.
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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #297 on: March 06, 2014, 05:03:22 PM »
^^^Yeah, I notice this on the apologist websites; unlike most scientific and rational thinking sites (where they try to be precise in defining what their terms clearly mean), the apologist sites specialize in sliding between meanings and changing which definition they are using in the middle of their arguments.

They seem to be taking advantage of the fact that in English one word can mean lots of different things.[1] It makes me wonder if they can get away with the same thing in languages that are more precise than English? Can they do this in Chinese or Swahili?

Why would they do this?  Unless they were a)knowingly deceitful and trying to fool people (jerks for Jesus) or b) too stupid to realize that they are using words this way (yahoos for Yahweh).

Neither possibility makes them look very good.
 1. Look up the definition of the word "run" for a good example.http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/run
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #298 on: March 06, 2014, 05:13:19 PM »

Don't know. Neither of my kids ever got a DWI. Who should I blame. Was it all my fault?


Well, if you had perfect foreknowledge of the result of every action and word you said and did not do anything different, yes. You would be at fault.

But that perfect foreknowledge thing is something the only shows up in fiction, like bronze age fables.

If you had perfect foreknowledge, how could you do anything differently? Then you wouldn't have perfect foreknowledge.

Logic 101.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Dante

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #299 on: March 06, 2014, 05:17:03 PM »

Don't know. Neither of my kids ever got a DWI. Who should I blame. Was it all my fault?


Well, if you had perfect foreknowledge of the result of every action and word you said and did not do anything different, yes. You would be at fault.

But that perfect foreknowledge thing is something the only shows up in fiction, like bronze age fables.

If you had perfect foreknowledge, how could you do anything differently? Then you wouldn't have perfect foreknowledge.

Logic 101.

Yup, it is logic 101.

So, your god doesn't have perfect foreknowledge, by your own admission. So, your god is NOT omniscient, by your own admission. Cool.  8)
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #300 on: March 06, 2014, 06:04:55 PM »
Yup, it is logic 101.

So, your god doesn't have perfect foreknowledge, by your own admission. So, your god is NOT omniscient, by your own admission. Cool.  8)

Never said that.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #301 on: March 06, 2014, 06:54:48 PM »

Don't know. Neither of my kids ever got a DWI. Who should I blame. Was it all my fault?


Well, if you had perfect foreknowledge of the result of every action and word you said and did not do anything different, yes. You would be at fault.

But that perfect foreknowledge thing is something the only shows up in fiction, like bronze age fables.

If you had perfect foreknowledge, how could you do anything differently? Then you wouldn't have perfect foreknowledge.

Logic 101.

Yup, it is logic 101.

So, your god doesn't have perfect foreknowledge, by your own admission. So, your god is NOT omniscient, by your own admission. Cool.  8)

"perfect foreknowledge of the result of every action" is what I said. Theists always seem to avoid the wording of what I said.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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Offline voodoo child

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #302 on: March 06, 2014, 06:56:46 PM »
Skept
The ambiguous miracles…    lost keys, dire straits. I heard this story once, from my son. He told me of a guy that fell asleep at the wheel through two states no less. On top of old bullshit comes the; he was driving a big rig… then he said, that’s faith.  I thought to myself, a god can do all these silly little things that are unbelievable in nature. But it cannot seem to stop ones bad day.  Then have second or third hand information presented as if I am supposed to take it seriously.
                 
 The gullibility factor is outstanding man!

Regarding evil back there a few pages ago.   few things you should look at.
 
How often does rape happen in the USA alone?    One every two minutes. Now,

look at it from a planetary scale. Keep in mind, USA is not all of earth.

How often does lighting strike the planet and how many die from that?

Car accidents with fatalities. More have died in car accidents than all wars humans have had in the last  hundred years.                     

 Cars are evil I tells ya. 

The originator of the logical problem of evil has been cited as the Greek philosopher Epicurus, this argument may be schematized as follows:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil

If an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent god exists, then evil does not.
There is evil in the world.

Therefore, an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent God does not exist.

This argument is of the form modus tollens, and is logically valid if its premises are true, the conclusion follows of necessity. However, it is unclear precisely how the existence of an all-powerful and perfectly good God guarantees the non-existence of evil. Also, it is unclear whether the first premise is true. To show that it is plausible, subsequent versions tend to expand on this premise, such as this modern example:

God exists.

God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent.

An omnibenevolent being would want to prevent all evils.

An omniscient being knows every way in which evils can come into existence.

An omnipotent being has the power to prevent that evil from coming into existence.

A being who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, who is able to prevent that evil from coming into existence, and who wants to do so, would prevent the existence of that evil.

If there exists an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent God, then no evil exists.
Evil exists (logical contradiction).

Both of these arguments are understood to be presenting two forms of the logical problem of evil. They attempt to show that the assumed propositions lead to a logical contradiction and therefore cannot all be correct. Most philosophical debate has focused on the propositions stating that God cannot exist with, or would want to prevent, all evils (premises 3 and 6), with defenders of theism (for example, Liebnitz) arguing that God could very well exist with and allow evil in order to achieve a greater good.

Why are you here skept? You certainly don’t seem to want to learn anything. I mean greybeards post should have been in your face for at least awhile…   
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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #303 on: March 06, 2014, 07:28:55 PM »
No, there are no problems. God is not responsible for evil.
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Exodus 4:11 And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?

Once again, you are simply quoting verses out of context. I have repeatedly said that you can't do that with the Bible. Everything must be analyzed within the full context of the chapter, to possibly even the whole book.
OK, off you go... you tell us who created Satan and the meaning of the above verses.
The book of Job is all you really need to read as far as how far this god will push someone,and in fact this god can be evil just for the fun of it
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Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #304 on: March 06, 2014, 07:33:22 PM »
Talking about omni-whatever.

Omnipotence is a paradox, thus it is illogical to say that something is omnipotent.

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Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #305 on: March 06, 2014, 08:43:51 PM »
Sorry it doesn't mention the devil, try again.

I am in shock that you guys don't know a basic Bible story.

God created Satan but Satan rebelled out of his own free will. When you allow free will, you allow the possibility of people doing things that you don't like.

If your son/daughter gets a DWI, do you blame yourself for bringing the child into the world? Or do you blame your son/daughter for his/her own decision to drive drunk?

Where in the Bible does one find the rebellion story? 

Since the Satan rebelled of his own free will, does this mean God did not know the Satan would rebel?

Ever curious,

OldChurchGuy
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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #306 on: March 06, 2014, 09:08:32 PM »
Talking about omni-whatever.

Omnipotence is a paradox, thus it is illogical to say that something is omnipotent.
Skep:

Can God make a rock so big he can't lift it?  An organism so complex he can't understand it?  A burrito so hot he can't eat it?  It's paradoxical.
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Offline SpaceTime

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #307 on: March 06, 2014, 10:25:54 PM »
Curiosity question for skeptic:
Here's the scenario:

- I make a baby with my wife
- I build a playground for him to stay
- In the playground, I place a poisonous candy
- I know with 100% certainity that the baby will eat the candy if I put it there, yet I do so because he has free will anyway
- After a while there, he eventually eats it, I decide the punish him for eating it

Is it fair for me to punish the kid? Why/why not?

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #308 on: March 07, 2014, 01:56:55 AM »
Skep:

Can God make a rock so big he can't lift it?  An organism so complex he can't understand it?  A burrito so hot he can't eat it?  It's paradoxical.

My favorite one.

Can god make someone more powerful than he is?
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Offline wheels5894

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #309 on: March 07, 2014, 04:31:35 AM »
I'm going to repost a few questions of mine, since they seem to have gone unnoticed.  Considering the topic of this thread, I think its important that they get answered.

First, on the opening "atheist is a belief" statement, has skeptic54768 ever given a clear-cut explanation of what definition of the word "belief" he is using?  I know I tried asking him before but I don't think I got a clear-cut answer out of him (and had to prod a little just to get him to comment at all on this).

Second, does this whole "non-belief belief" thing applies only to gods, or does it works on anything I have a non-belief on?  For example, I do not believe that toothpaste can sing.  Does this mean I have a non-belief belief about singing toothpaste?  After all, you cannot prove that toothpaste do not sing.

Bear in mind, that when I ask for "a clear-cut definition" of the word 'belief', I am thinking along the line of "By 'belief', the exact definition I'm using is..." followed by said exact definition.

Getting away from hot burritos, I think this point is the most crucial in the discussion of the OP. We must have a definition by Skeptic before anything else. his refusal to do this suggests to me that he knows he is using the word 'belief' wrongly to make his point.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #310 on: March 07, 2014, 04:36:33 AM »
Nobody can ever be 100% sure that God does not exist.

I am.  Ready for a 1 on 1 debate where I show you how I am 100% certain?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #311 on: March 07, 2014, 04:51:56 AM »
If you had perfect foreknowledge, how could you do anything differently? Then you wouldn't have perfect foreknowledge.

So are you saying that your god has perfect foreknowledge?  Because - logic 101 - that means by your argument that it was impossible for him to do anything differently, ever.  Your god is locked into a will-less robotic existence where he takes the single programmed response at every juncture, with no thought or decision-making ability required.

Why would you worship a being that has and had zero choice in any action it ever takes?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline natlegend

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #312 on: March 07, 2014, 07:12:25 AM »
Prove to me there Darth Vader lives in my kitchen and I will fall to my knees and praise Yaweh right now. I promise. There are plenty of books and DVDs about Vader so it must be true.

What, you can't'? Your argument invalided. As a chew toy you are fun, but all chew toys get mangled in the end.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2014, 07:18:31 AM by natlegend »
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You keep using that word. I do not think it means

Offline Tero

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #313 on: March 07, 2014, 07:22:00 AM »
It's sooooooooooooo much easier to prove there is a God and that God is good.   :P On another forum today:
Quote
The God Glasses

There is a drive by shooting
There are three different out comes

1) All the bullets miss anything vital, full recovery
God is Good
2) Bullets hit vital organs but the victim will still live, but in constant pain and in a wheel chair.
He is still with us, God is Good
3) The victim dies
God took him home. He feels no more pain. God is Good.

No matter what happens...God is Good.

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #314 on: March 07, 2014, 07:30:27 AM »
Where in the Bible does one find the rebellion story?
Good point, we don't but there is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Heaven for which we have Milton to blame. He wasn't clear enough that it was just a fictional account. The popular imagination has placed Satan's Biblical rebellion not in Revelations but pre-Genesis.

Quote
Since the Satan rebelled of his own free will, does this mean God did not know the Satan would rebel?
Free will has been discussed to death on WWGHA. The conclusion is that there is no free will but there is a very strong illusion of free will such that is all but indistinguishable from free will.

As Satan was created by Yahweh, and as Yahweh is all-knowing, this creates the idea that Yahweh must have known what His creation would do. Yahweh has the knowledge of  Armageddon, and has always had it. It must therefore be a fixed event. If it is a fixed event, then all roads inexorably lead to it. For this to be possible, the future must be fixed. Not only that, but all our lives must be fixed in order to fit in with the plan.

(fix quotes)
« Last Edit: March 07, 2014, 08:00:09 AM by Graybeard »
RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

Offline Dante

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #315 on: March 07, 2014, 08:34:11 AM »
Yup, it is logic 101.

So, your god doesn't have perfect foreknowledge, by your own admission. So, your god is NOT omniscient, by your own admission. Cool.  8)

Never said that.

You didn't have to say it verbatim, but you said it implicitly. See below.

If you had perfect foreknowledge, how could you do anything differently? Then you wouldn't have perfect foreknowledge.

Logic 101.

It's not even logic 101, it's basic public high school stuff.

Either your god has perfect foreknowledge, and therefor can't do anything differently (which negates any free will whatsoever), or it does not have perfect foreknowledge, and is therefor not omniscient.

Which is it, skep?
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #316 on: March 07, 2014, 10:20:08 AM »

Either your god has perfect foreknowledge, and therefor can't do anything differently (which negates any free will whatsoever), or it does not have perfect foreknowledge, and is therefor not omniscient.


I offer a third option(which is sort of contained in the second); this god had perfect foreknowledge of the consequences of any of its possible actions, and chose this one anyway.

The world with death.
The world with aging.
The world with disease.
The world where poplation can exceed resources.
The world with parasites.

And the only ones seeming to do anything about it are those who DON'T trust this god's good judgement when setting up such a situation and try reduce these problems. And this god hates them for it.




An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #317 on: March 07, 2014, 10:28:36 AM »
Of course, Hatter, the Christian will respond that death only came into the world as a result of Adam, Eve and the fruit. Juts in case someone does point this out, I thought I'd mention that the prefect foreknowledge would know that they would eat the fruit (why bother to tell them not to if they are going ahead anyway?) and thus bring death into the world. In effect, god, by his design, has brought death to the world.

So, Christians, find a better reason to blame old Adam or accept that it was 'god did it' even when it is bad.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Mrjason

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #318 on: March 07, 2014, 10:40:19 AM »
Juts in case someone does point this out, I thought I'd mention that the prefect foreknowledge would know that they would eat the fruit (why bother to tell them not to if they are going ahead anyway?) and thus bring death into the world. In effect, god, by his design, has brought death to the world.


Don't worry about the vase...



Would A & E have eaten the fruit if they weren't warned about eating the fruit?

BTW I think Keanu would make a great adam in genesis the movie.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2014, 10:54:04 AM by Mrjason »