Author Topic: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge  (Read 16610 times)

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Offline skeptic54768

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Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« on: March 01, 2014, 10:52:43 PM »
If this can't be done, then atheism is a belief.

A lot of atheists falsely think that atheism just means "without belief" but it actually means, "No God." Atheism is a positive claim that God does not exist. Agnosticism is the view where they don't have an opinion either way.

Sure, some atheists like to say, "Atheism just means that we lack belief in God" but this is an attempt by modern atheists to redefine the word. The word NEVER meant that. The word always meant "No God."

I even heard some of them say, "Atheism means that we don't think there is enough evidence for God." But, this backfires too because there ARE theists out there who agree with this statement, but believe in God anyway. So, this definition gets thrown out the window too.

The proper meaning of "lacking belief in God" means that you believe God is there, but you don't believe in Him. Sort of like having a friend who betrays your trust and you lose your faith in him. The friend still exists, but you lose your belief in your friend. So, this is why "lacking belief" backfires and actually means you DO think God is real, you just lost faith in Him.

So, that leaves atheism as meaning "No God" which is a positive claim. So, any atheists out there want to defend their positive claim of "No God?"

Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline SevenPatch

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2014, 11:30:14 PM »
Are you arguing what the meaning of the word "atheism" is or if there is a god?
"Shut him up! We have a lot invested in this ride - SHUT HIM UP! Look at my furrows of worry! Look at my big bank account, and my family! This just HAS to be real!" - Bill Hicks

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2014, 11:34:13 PM »
If this can't be done, then atheism is a belief.
No, it just means you can't prove a negative.

Quote from: skeptic54768
A lot of atheists falsely think that atheism just means "without belief" but it actually means, "No God." Atheism is a positive claim that God does not exist. Agnosticism is the view where they don't have an opinion either way.
How would you like it if someone not even a Christian got to define what being a Christian meant and then determined that you had to be that way even though you weren't?  Same thing goes here.  You don't get to decide what atheism means and then tell atheists that they have to conform to your definition.  "A-theism" literally means "without theism".  And since theism means the belief in a god or gods, that means atheists are without belief in a god or gods.

Quote from: skeptic54768
Sure, some atheists like to say, "Atheism just means that we lack belief in God" but this is an attempt by modern atheists to redefine the word. The word NEVER meant that. The word always meant "No God."
And why would you think that?  Theism derived from 'theos' which meant 'god' (in ancient Greek).  Yet I do not think you would consider yourself a god because you are a theist.  So why are you trying to make the same claim when it comes to atheists?  "No god', indeed!

Besides, words and definitions change over time, so even the original definition (used by the Greeks) meant something like "godless" or "without god", there is no reason to assume that the definition is the same as it was hundreds or thousands of years ago.  Just like the word 'faggot' originally meant a piece of wood, but now it's a pejorative term for a homosexual man.

Quote from: skeptic54768
I even heard some of them say, "Atheism means that we don't think there is enough evidence for God." But, this backfires too because there ARE theists out there who agree with this statement, but believe in God anyway. So, this definition gets thrown out the window too.
No, they say that as a reason for their lack of belief, not as a definition of it (despite your attempt to declare otherwise).  The mere fact that some theists share that reason yet believe anyway is ample proof that your definition is a strawman and doesn't work.

Quote from: skeptic54768
The proper meaning of "lacking belief in God" means that you believe God is there, but you don't believe in Him. Sort of like having a friend who betrays your trust and you lose your faith in him. The friend still exists, but you lose your belief in your friend. So, this is why "lacking belief" backfires and actually means you DO think God is real, you just lost faith in Him.
Quit trying to play word games, skeptic.  There is no way that you don't know that there's (at least) two different definitions of "believe in", therefore you are intentionally conflating them to attempt to confuse the issue.  Yes, you can define "believing in X" as saying that you don't have faith in X but you acknowledge its existence, but it is equally valid to define it as "don't accept X exists".  Like the saying, "I don't believe in faeries".  Do you seriously think the person saying this actually does think that faeries exist but doesn't have faith in them?

Quote from: skeptic54768
So, that leaves atheism as meaning "No God" which is a positive claim. So, any atheists out there want to defend their positive claim of "No God?"
No, it leaves you demanding that atheists attempt to defend the strawman you've constructed for them.  Fortunately, I don't think there are any atheists stupid enough to fall for this.

Offline Aaron123

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2014, 12:21:32 AM »
If this can't be done, then atheism is a belief.

A long time ago, I asked you about how would you prove the non-existence of something.  After much hawing and humming, you admitted that you had no idea how this would be done.  Now that you're bringing up the subject again, I feel the need to ask once again:

How would you prove the non-existence of something?  Give examples.


Considering that you've already admitted that you have no idea how this would work, I can only conclude that you finally found an answer to this.  So enlighten us, how do you prove that something does not exist?
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2014, 12:31:43 AM »
If this can't be done, then atheism is a belief.

A long time ago, I asked you about how would you prove the non-existence of something.  After much hawing and humming, you admitted that you had no idea how this would be done.  Now that you're bringing up the subject again, I feel the need to ask once again:

How would you prove the non-existence of something?  Give examples.


Considering that you've already admitted that you have no idea how this would work, I can only conclude that you finally found an answer to this.  So enlighten us, how do you prove that something does not exist?

That is the whole point though. If it can't be done, then it's a belief. There is no empirical proof for atheism. I am glad this is settled.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline SevenPatch

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2014, 12:56:04 AM »
That is the whole point though. If it can't be done, then it's a belief. There is no empirical proof for atheism. I am glad this is settled.

Haha.  Congrats skep, you just defeated the word "atheism" as you've defined it.  What are you going to do now?  I recommend going to Disneyland.
"Shut him up! We have a lot invested in this ride - SHUT HIM UP! Look at my furrows of worry! Look at my big bank account, and my family! This just HAS to be real!" - Bill Hicks

Offline Aaron123

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2014, 01:08:12 AM »
That is the whole point though. If it can't be done, then it's a belief. There is no empirical proof for atheism. I am glad this is settled.

Calling something a belief does not make it so, especially when it's built upon a strawman.

Do you believe in the Tooth Fairy?  If not, can you prove it doesn't exist?  Would you say that you have a belief in atoothfairyism?  Aflyingshoeism[1]?

You seem to think the word "belief" is some sort of magic hex that gets atheists all afluttered, anxious, atwittered, aggrieved and antsy.  But what are we talking about here?

belief

1. something believed; an opinion or conviction: a belief that the earth is flat.
2. confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof: a statement unworthy of belief.
3. confidence; faith; trust: a child's belief in his parents.
4. a religious tenet or tenets; religious creed or faith: the Christian belief.

Surely, we are not talking about definition 1, since everyone has "something believed", and opinions and conviction.  That's an extremely unremarkable statement.

Definition two seems to be closer to what you're trying to get at, but I doubt it's what you have in mind.

I also doubt you are talking about definition 3, since everyone has trust in something.

So I conclude that you're thinking of definition 4.  So this thread is little more than a thinly-disguised retread of the "atheism is a religion" argument.  That argument is very tired, old, and a PRATT.  Do you really want to go through it again?  If so, you should've said as such right from the start.
 1. The belief that your shoes do not fly about when you're not sleeping
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Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2014, 01:13:44 AM »
The title of the thread should be "prove there is no god which has been claimed to exist".

Do you see the difference?

This makes the question theoretically possible to answer.

In practice, you already agree that most gods which have been claimed to exist are not really gods. That only leaves your god to be disproved.

« Last Edit: March 02, 2014, 01:46:04 AM by Foxy Freedom »
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Offline Jesuis

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2014, 02:10:22 AM »
No, it just means you can't prove a negative.

In mathematics although you cannot prove the existence of negative one (-1) we accept it exists for the sake of logic, mathematics, critical thinking and philosophical debate. This premise is now a fundamental problem for you if that is what you mean.

You can say there is no such thing as a negative apple but you cannot understand algebra or use critical thinking to justify your belief - unless you reject the principle of the laws in mathematics. 

for example:- (+1) + (-1) =0

There I proved to you that it is possible to prove a negative.

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2014, 02:17:32 AM »
If this can't be done, then atheism is a belief.

A lot of atheists falsely think that atheism just means "without belief" but it actually means, "No God." Atheism is a positive claim that God does not exist. Agnosticism is the view where they don't have an opinion either way.

Sure, some atheists like to say, "Atheism just means that we lack belief in God" but this is an attempt by modern atheists to redefine the word. The word NEVER meant that. The word always meant "No God."

I even heard some of them say, "Atheism means that we don't think there is enough evidence for God." But, this backfires too because there ARE theists out there who agree with this statement, but believe in God anyway. So, this definition gets thrown out the window too.

The proper meaning of "lacking belief in God" means that you believe God is there, but you don't believe in Him. Sort of like having a friend who betrays your trust and you lose your faith in him. The friend still exists, but you lose your belief in your friend. So, this is why "lacking belief" backfires and actually means you DO think God is real, you just lost faith in Him.

So, that leaves atheism as meaning "No God" which is a positive claim. So, any atheists out there want to defend their positive claim of "No God?"

I don't need proof that there is no god, though I have some. My accurate assessment that he doesn't exist (using my real definition of atheism, not your trumped up one) appears to be accurate after 50+ years of knowing that that I'm right. I've even invited him to kill me, like right now, when, if he is real, he could kill me before I ended this sentence, but he never does. He lets little kids with leukemia die if he is real. He lets innocent mothers die in car wrecks if he is real. He should be able to let a 62 year old guy sitting in front of a computer drop dead. But if he doesn't exist, he can't do it. And he didn't. Here I am. But if you're doubtful, I'll try again. Hey god, if you're real, kill me now. Strike me dead. Do me in. Kill me, you jerk. I'll start another sentence now, and knock me off before I finish it, and I promise to make it a run-on sentence in case you need time to refill your lightening bolt gun or something, I'm running it on, come on god, you can do it, you're real, I'm an idiot for not believing in you, kill me, now, or, if you're in the mood to wait, kill me now.

It never works. Hence there is no god.

And don't tell me he doesn't work that way. That is the only way a non-existent deity can work. Not at all.

He didn't work. I'm alive. No god. Get used to it.

If you want me to give him another chance, I'll be glad to. His inability too control me date of death is infinite, but I'll be happy to temp him using whatever method you want me to use. Unless it is something actually dangerous, which could kill me whether or not there is a god. Like a gun to the head or something. I'm not that stupid.

But tell you what. We'll give him more chance. First I'll flip him the bird. There, did that. Now I'm going to bed. I'm old enough to die in my sleep or whatever. So he has between now and whenever I would normally post next(sometime tomorrow morning) to zap my ass. If I never post again, have jetson check the obits in a few days in my hometown newspaper. He knows where I live and he knows my real name. If he confirms that I kicked the bucket sometime during the early hours of 03/02/2014, then I may have been wrong. And you can use me as an example.

See you in the morning, always wrong person.

Added: Just in case he is real and worried about doing me in, he has my full permission to zap me. But only if he is real. Otherwise, the deal is off.
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Offline SevenPatch

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2014, 02:23:35 AM »
There I proved to you that it is possible to prove a negative.

No, you proved human concepts exist as human concepts.
"Shut him up! We have a lot invested in this ride - SHUT HIM UP! Look at my furrows of worry! Look at my big bank account, and my family! This just HAS to be real!" - Bill Hicks

Offline Jesuis

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2014, 02:40:40 AM »
Are you arguing what the meaning of the word "atheism" is or if there is a god?
The word atheism was created to label the pagans. (They had a wide and varied belief system).
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2014, 02:42:23 AM »
Not believing in something for which there's no evidence is perfectly reasonable.

You see, that's what you consistently fail to understand.  Atheists (or at least most of them) aren't trying to prove that gods don't exist.  There's no more point to that than trying to prove that Vulcans don't exist, or elves, or dragons, or whatever.  But because there's no evidence to show that any of those things exist, there's no reason to assume that they exist either.

Yet your reasoning is that not believing in something must mean that you accept its existence even if there's no evidence for it whatsoever.  That merely being able to conceive of something is enough to prove its existence.  And that simply doesn't work in reality.  Humans can conceive of many things, but that is no reason to assume that those things exist independent of human thought.  To show that requires empirical evidence, and if that evidence is not forthcoming, well.

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2014, 02:47:39 AM »
There I proved to you that it is possible to prove a negative.

No, you proved human concepts exist as human concepts.
No I proved that it is possible to prove a negative. Logic and critical thinking.
If you want - you can do it too. Don't believe me.
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2014, 02:58:34 AM »
That is the whole point though. If it can't be done, then it's a belief. There is no empirical proof for atheism. I am glad this is settled.

Calling something a belief does not make it so, especially when it's built upon a strawman.

Do you believe in the Tooth Fairy?  If not, can you prove it doesn't exist?  Would you say that you have a belief in atoothfairyism?  Aflyingshoeism[1]?

You seem to think the word "belief" is some sort of magic hex that gets atheists all afluttered, anxious, atwittered, aggrieved and antsy.  But what are we talking about here?

belief

1. something believed; an opinion or conviction: a belief that the earth is flat.
2. confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof: a statement unworthy of belief.
3. confidence; faith; trust: a child's belief in his parents.
4. a religious tenet or tenets; religious creed or faith: the Christian belief.

Surely, we are not talking about definition 1, since everyone has "something believed", and opinions and conviction.  That's an extremely unremarkable statement.

Definition two seems to be closer to what you're trying to get at, but I doubt it's what you have in mind.

I also doubt you are talking about definition 3, since everyone has trust in something.

So I conclude that you're thinking of definition 4.  So this thread is little more than a thinly-disguised retread of the "atheism is a religion" argument.  That argument is very tired, old, and a PRATT.  Do you really want to go through it again?  If so, you should've said as such right from the start.
 1. The belief that your shoes do not fly about when you're not sleeping

The entire point is that you can't even prove that the tooth fairy does not exist. Thus, there is still a probability of existence to label to it. To flat out state, "X does not exist" is showing a closed mind.

A truly open-minded honest person keeps the possibility open.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2014, 02:59:21 AM »
In mathematics although you cannot prove the existence of negative one (-1) we accept it exists for the sake of logic, mathematics, critical thinking and philosophical debate. This premise is now a fundamental problem for you if that is what you mean.

You can say there is no such thing as a negative apple but you cannot understand algebra or use critical thinking to justify your belief - unless you reject the principle of the laws in mathematics. 

for example:- (+1) + (-1) =0

There I proved to you that it is possible to prove a negative.
Irrelevant.  You can prove things in math which don't exist in the real world, same as you can prove things in logic that don't exist in the real world.  But that doesn't mean anything for showing that those things actually exist.

Showing that you can prove a negative in math does not in any way prove that negatives quantities of things actually exist.  For example, can you ever show me that negative apple?  If you cannot, then why should we assume that such a thing actually exists?

By the way, I can also 'prove' that negative numbers do not actually exist using math.  You see, a negative number can always be expressed as subtracting a positive number.  So instead of 'adding' a negative apple to a pile, I simply take an apple away from the pile.  So what happens when you have no more apples in the pile and someone comes for one?  About the only thing you can do is reserve an apple for them for when eventually gets put in the pile.  But in that case, you aren't creating a negative apple, you're creating an IOU which says they can claim an apple when one comes available.  Therefore, you're only dealing with positive values - you either have apples which means you don't have to worry, or IOUs which can be turned in for apples later.  Having apples in the pile doesn't give you 'negative' IOUs, and giving out IOUs doesn't give the person a negative apple either.

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2014, 03:00:46 AM »
How would you like it if someone not even a Christian got to define what being a Christian meant and then determined that you had to be that way even though you weren't?  Same thing goes here.  You don't get to decide what atheism means and then tell atheists that they have to conform to your definition.  "A-theism" literally means "without theism".  And since theism means the belief in a god or gods, that means atheists are without belief in a god or gods.

But that is not factually correct. Atheists were not a definition for people the way you presume. It was actually a derogatory term used by the ruling class of the day to label and dehumanize those who did not believe in God as they did. The atheists beliefs were so wide and varied that the easiest way to make them an outcast what to call them all atheists. The nature of the inhumane mind that it thinks it is better than someone else. It is all ego with a duality in mind agenda. I am better than you.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2014, 04:22:08 AM by Jesuis »
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2014, 03:00:51 AM »
If this can't be done, then atheism is a belief.

A lot of atheists falsely think that atheism just means "without belief" but it actually means, "No God." Atheism is a positive claim that God does not exist. Agnosticism is the view where they don't have an opinion either way.

Sure, some atheists like to say, "Atheism just means that we lack belief in God" but this is an attempt by modern atheists to redefine the word. The word NEVER meant that. The word always meant "No God."

I even heard some of them say, "Atheism means that we don't think there is enough evidence for God." But, this backfires too because there ARE theists out there who agree with this statement, but believe in God anyway. So, this definition gets thrown out the window too.

The proper meaning of "lacking belief in God" means that you believe God is there, but you don't believe in Him. Sort of like having a friend who betrays your trust and you lose your faith in him. The friend still exists, but you lose your belief in your friend. So, this is why "lacking belief" backfires and actually means you DO think God is real, you just lost faith in Him.

So, that leaves atheism as meaning "No God" which is a positive claim. So, any atheists out there want to defend their positive claim of "No God?"

I don't need proof that there is no god, though I have some. My accurate assessment that he doesn't exist (using my real definition of atheism, not your trumped up one) appears to be accurate after 50+ years of knowing that that I'm right. I've even invited him to kill me, like right now, when, if he is real, he could kill me before I ended this sentence, but he never does. He lets little kids with leukemia die if he is real. He lets innocent mothers die in car wrecks if he is real. He should be able to let a 62 year old guy sitting in front of a computer drop dead. But if he doesn't exist, he can't do it. And he didn't. Here I am. But if you're doubtful, I'll try again. Hey god, if you're real, kill me now. Strike me dead. Do me in. Kill me, you jerk. I'll start another sentence now, and knock me off before I finish it, and I promise to make it a run-on sentence in case you need time to refill your lightening bolt gun or something, I'm running it on, come on god, you can do it, you're real, I'm an idiot for not believing in you, kill me, now, or, if you're in the mood to wait, kill me now.

It never works. Hence there is no god.

And don't tell me he doesn't work that way. That is the only way a non-existent deity can work. Not at all.

He didn't work. I'm alive. No god. Get used to it.

If you want me to give him another chance, I'll be glad to. His inability too control me date of death is infinite, but I'll be happy to temp him using whatever method you want me to use. Unless it is something actually dangerous, which could kill me whether or not there is a god. Like a gun to the head or something. I'm not that stupid.

But tell you what. We'll give him more chance. First I'll flip him the bird. There, did that. Now I'm going to bed. I'm old enough to die in my sleep or whatever. So he has between now and whenever I would normally post next(sometime tomorrow morning) to zap my ass. If I never post again, have jetson check the obits in a few days in my hometown newspaper. He knows where I live and he knows my real name. If he confirms that I kicked the bucket sometime during the early hours of 03/02/2014, then I may have been wrong. And you can use me as an example.

See you in the morning, always wrong person.

Added: Just in case he is real and worried about doing me in, he has my full permission to zap me. But only if he is real. Otherwise, the deal is off.

lol deep down inside, you know that's not proof that God does not exist.

Where did God say that he will bow to your whims?
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2014, 03:02:19 AM »
How would you like it if someone not even a Christian got to define what being a Christian meant and then determined that you had to be that way even though you weren't?  Same thing goes here.  You don't get to decide what atheism means and then tell atheists that they have to conform to your definition.  "A-theism" literally means "without theism".  And since theism means the belief in a god or gods, that means atheists are without belief in a god or gods.

But that is not factually correct. Atheists were not a definition for people the way you presume. It was actually a derogatory term used by the ruling class of the day to label and dehumanize those who did not believe in God as they did. The atheists beliefs were so wide and varied that the easiest way to make them an outcast what to call them an atheist. The nature of the inhumane mind that it thinks it is better than someone else. It is all ego with a duality in mind agenda. I am better than you.

That just might be the coup de grace.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline SevenPatch

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2014, 03:10:52 AM »
There I proved to you that it is possible to prove a negative.

No, you proved human concepts exist as human concepts.
No I proved that it is possible to prove a negative. Logic and critical thinking.
If you want - you can do it too. Don't believe me.
I do not want followers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E2%88%921_%28number%29

Mathmatics is an abstract study of various topics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematics


Dictionary.com defines abstract as:

1. thought of apart from concrete realities, specific objects, or actual instances: an abstract idea.
2. expressing a quality or characteristic apart from any specific object or instance, as justice, poverty, and speed.
3. theoretical; not applied or practical: abstract science.

Or in other words a human concept.  Please, I insist, you should use logic and some critical thinking

Don't believe me.  I don't want followers.
"Shut him up! We have a lot invested in this ride - SHUT HIM UP! Look at my furrows of worry! Look at my big bank account, and my family! This just HAS to be real!" - Bill Hicks

Offline Jesuis

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #20 on: March 02, 2014, 03:15:55 AM »
Irrelevant.  You can prove things in math which don't exist in the real world, same as you can prove things in logic that don't exist in the real world.  But that doesn't mean anything for showing that those things actually exist.
Now you are not making logical sense. Well you were not from the beginning.

Quote
Showing that you can prove a negative in math does not in any way prove that negatives quantities of things actually exist.  For example, can you ever show me that negative apple?  If you cannot, then why should we assume that such a thing actually exists?
I know that - but really -- should we dump mathematics as a subject because you say so. Great way to prove that your "Nobody can prove a negative" is now irrelevant to critical thinking.

Quote
By the way, I can also 'prove' that negative numbers do not actually exist using math.  You see, a negative number can always be expressed as subtracting a positive number.  So instead of 'adding' a negative apple to a pile, I simply take an apple away from the pile.  So what happens when you have no more apples in the pile and someone comes for one?  About the only thing you can do is reserve an apple for them for when eventually gets put in the pile.  But in that case, you aren't creating a negative apple, you're creating an IOU which says they can claim an apple when one comes available.  Therefore, you're only dealing with positive values - you either have apples which means you don't have to worry, or IOUs which can be turned in for apples later.  Having apples in the pile doesn't give you 'negative' IOUs, and giving out IOUs doesn't give the person a negative apple either.
At last you see the logic. However it will be the last time you ask someone to prove they cannot prove a negative, cause now you know the stupidity of that logic.
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline Jesuis

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #21 on: March 02, 2014, 03:17:31 AM »
Mathmatics is an abstract study of various topics.

Or in other words a human concept.  Please, I insist, you should use logic and some critical thinking

Don't believe me.  I don't want followers.
So can one prove a negative.
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2014, 03:21:14 AM »
That just might be the coup de grace.
The only thing this shows is that you have an even poorer understanding of this subject than I thought you did.

To put it very simply, his point here is that the term 'atheist' originally referred to not believing in a particular god or gods (specifically the ones that a given group of people did believe in).  Sometimes, that meant simply not worshiping the god or gods, and sometimes, that meant not believing that the god/s existed in the first place (exactly what depended on the particular culture).  Which is the point I was trying to make in the first place.  You don't get to define what atheism means based on old, outmoded definitions that simply don't make sense in the modern world, especially since it's come to mean the rejection of the existence of deities much more than the rejection of belief in those deities.

This is the same nonsense we get when someone tries to arbitrarily define the word theory to make it look like scientific theories are nothing but guesses.

Offline SevenPatch

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2014, 03:28:21 AM »
Mathmatics is an abstract study of various topics.

Or in other words a human concept.  Please, I insist, you should use logic and some critical thinking

Don't believe me.  I don't want followers.
So can one prove a negative.

Not with 100 percent certainty.

Try proving that Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny do not exist.

If you can, then you will have proven a negative.
"Shut him up! We have a lot invested in this ride - SHUT HIM UP! Look at my furrows of worry! Look at my big bank account, and my family! This just HAS to be real!" - Bill Hicks

Offline Jesuis

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #24 on: March 02, 2014, 03:34:11 AM »
And why would you think that?  Theism derived from 'theos' which meant 'god' (in ancient Greek).  Yet I do not think you would consider yourself a god because you are a theist.  So why are you trying to make the same claim when it comes to atheists?  "No god', indeed!

Besides, words and definitions change over time, so even the original definition (used by the Greeks) meant something like "godless" or "without god", there is no reason to assume that the definition is the same as it was hundreds or thousands of years ago.  Just like the word 'faggot' originally meant a piece of wood, but now it's a pejorative term for a homosexual man.

The pagans were not recognized by the Romans who wanted everyone to be converted to their religion. If they were stubborn and did not recognize their Christian God they were labeled Atheists. Meaning they had no belief in the God the Romans were teaching about. Not that they had no belief whatsoever. They did.
The word atheists was a derogatory term like faggot from the first day it was uttered by the well schooled. We have changed that meaning with time, but human nature has not. It is still trying to use words to dehumanize one from the other. Assuming an authority that is false, namely to gain some form of accreditation to wisdom. Atheism has no such wisdom nor does it have any logical rationale for its base as you say it does.
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2014, 03:37:48 AM »
Now you are not making logical sense. Well you were not from the beginning.
That's my line.  You didn't even put your so-called mathematical proof together right, let alone demonstrating that a mathematical quantity adopted for convenience's sake actually exists in the real world.  Have you ever heard the saying, "a logical proposition is only as good as its premise"?  It means that you can prove anything using logic with the right premise, but many premises don't work in the real world.  The same goes for math; we can show that it's possible to conceive of negative numbers, but we can't ever show that negative numbers actually exist outside of that conception.

Quote from: Jesuis
I know that - but really -- should we dump mathematics as a subject because you say so. Great way to prove that your "Nobody can prove a negative" is now irrelevant to critical thinking.
No, I don't think you know that, because you didn't really understand what I was trying to say.  What you're trying to do is the equivalent of saying that since a hammer is a useful tool, we can use it to cut a board.  Simply put, math is very useful for some things, but nearly useless for others.  We can use negative numbers to represent concepts, just like we can use infinity, but neither of those are things that can possibly be demonstrated in the real world.  For that matter, we can conceive of math that doesn't even work, like taking the square root of -1 or dividing by zero.  But trying to take those concepts and apply them to the real world in some manner simply doesn't work.  We can't have a negative number of apples, nor can we have an infinite number of apples.

Quote from: Jesuis
At last you see the logic. However it will be the last time you ask someone to prove they cannot prove a negative, cause now you know the stupidity of that logic.
The text you bolded doesn't mean what you want it to mean.  Much like your attempts at logic, which are so bizarre that I generally have trouble figuring out what you're trying to say.

To put it simply, when we talk about proving a negative, what it means is taking a negative proposition (i.e., that something doesn't exist) and proving that it's true.  The reason that's impossible is that you literally can't examine all of the possible evidence in the universe to determine that the negative proposition is true in every case.  Because you can't determine that, you also can't determine that it doesn't exist, because a piece of evidence you weren't able to examine might prove crucial.

Trying to use a mathematical proof to negate this just shows that you don't understand what the subject is about to begin with.  This subject was never about mathematical proofs to begin with.

Offline Jesuis

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #26 on: March 02, 2014, 03:39:46 AM »
So can one prove a negative.

Not with 100 percent certainty.

Try proving that Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny do not exist.

If you can, then you will have proven a negative.
One does not intend to.
One knows the purpose of a story.
Stories appeal to the inner nature of a human being. It does not have to be true to carry the message.
Pinocchio is a wooden boy. There is no such thing as a wooden boy. But the story has an appeal to the human nature.
He has a conscience who guides him.
Santa is not real but everyone recognizes the spirit of giving and sharing.
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #27 on: March 02, 2014, 03:49:17 AM »
The pagans were not recognized by the Romans who wanted everyone to be converted to their religion. If they were stubborn and did not recognize their Christian God they were labeled Atheists. Meaning they had no belief in the God the Romans were teaching about. Not that they had no belief whatsoever. They did.
Which is not relevant to modern atheists, because modern atheists do not accept that deities exist to begin with.  That's the part that neither you nor skeptic seems to understand.  Pointing out that people used the word atheist to refer to a different subset of individuals, and then insisting that modern atheists must fall within that subset, is an error in your logic.  What was true in the past is not necessarily true now.

Quote from: Jesuis
The word atheists was a derogatory term like faggot from the first day it was uttered by the well schooled. We have changed that meaning with time, but human nature has not. It is still trying to use words to dehumanize one from the other. Assuming an authority that is false, namely to gain some form of accreditation to wisdom. Atheism has no such wisdom nor does it have any logical rationale for its base as you say it does.
Actually, faggot was not always a derogatory term, and even today it isn't always one.  Same with atheist.  It may have started as a derogatory term, but its meaning has changed, in large part due to people who made it their own word and took it away from the ignorant - by your own admission - people who were using it as an excuse for persecution.  But the thing is, modern atheists don't make any claims to wisdom, any claims to knowing for sure that gods don't exist, because they can't.  There's no way to examine all the evidence and rule out the existence of gods, because there's no way to get to all of the evidence.  All we can do is go past the point of reasonable doubt.

And now, I'm going to bed.  Practically falling asleep at the keyboard.

Offline SevenPatch

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Re: Prove There Is No God - A Challenge
« Reply #28 on: March 02, 2014, 03:58:07 AM »
Try proving that Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny do not exist.

If you can, then you will have proven a negative.
One does not intend to.
One knows the purpose of a story.
Stories appeal to the inner nature of a human being. It does not have to be true to carry the message.
Pinocchio is a wooden boy. There is no such thing as a wooden boy. But the story has an appeal to the human nature.
He has a conscience who guides him.
Santa is not real but everyone recognizes the spirit of giving and sharing.

So you agree that Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and Pinocchio do not exist except as stories born of human concepts.

Also, you agree that one cannot prove a negative.
"Shut him up! We have a lot invested in this ride - SHUT HIM UP! Look at my furrows of worry! Look at my big bank account, and my family! This just HAS to be real!" - Bill Hicks