Author Topic: Why would God particularly care what you believe as far as evolution, etc.?  (Read 662 times)

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Offline jynnan tonnix

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While reading through a few other threads here recently (and probably at any given time), it occurs to me, why, exactly, it would make any difference to any god which might exist whether one settled on and firmly believed in the exactly correct nature and timeline of his work.

There are lots of Christians out there who are quite happy believing in evolution as something set in motion billions of years ago and directed by the hand of a creator. Likewise, there are those who insist on a literal Adam & Eve with all the accompanying mythology, and a young earth, Noachian flood, etc.

My question to any theists here is, assuming that there is any truth to the notion of Jesus as the redeemer of sin (yes, it's a massive assumption, but I'm willing to grant it for the purposes of this question), if someone believed that he was who the Bible says and trusted and followed his teaching; if someone committed their life to following him, repented of their transgressions and let Jesus take the proverbial wheel, would an omnimax creator still penalize them for getting the details of said creation wrong?

If the world was created, seemingly billions of years old, six thousand years ago, would it matter to god that someone misinterpreted the data? Likewise, if the universe and Earth within it had been created billions of years ago, would this god care if someone decided to take some of the mythology associated with the roots of the religion literally? Funnily enough, no one ever seems to question this second part. And with evidence being such as it is, it seems far more likely that the people clinging to the bronze-age interpretations would be the ones mistaken.

But if god wouldn't care that someone potentially makes the mistake of believing the ancient mythological background of his existence, why would he likewise damn a different person for going with the scientific evidence over what reads as a totally fictional narrative if their faith was just as strong and complete either way?

If it would NOT make the difference between salvation and damnation, who should really get bent out of shape about evolutionary theory being taught in schools (parents can surely supplement any creationist rhetoric on their own time if it is that important to them)? And if it DOES make that massive of a difference (to this omnicient, omnipotent, omnipresent being), can someone please explain exactly why this should be the case?

Offline G-Roll

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I think your post hit a lot of points. I would like to throw my poorly thought out opinions on the subject :D

First
Quote
If it would NOT make the difference between salvation and damnation, who should really get bent out of shape about evolutionary theory being taught in schools (parents can surely supplement any creationist rhetoric on their own time if it is that important to them)? And if it DOES make that massive of a difference (to this omnicient, omnipotent, omnipresent being), can someone please explain exactly why this should be the case?
I don’t think creation being taught in school has anything to do with salvation as a whole, rather salvation of their child. I think that the fight of teaching creationism in school is anchored by fear. Fear that religion here in the US is becoming less and less relevant. As you said many Christians accept evolution and I think that frightens many fundamentalist who see evolution as an attempt to deny their gods existence. Thus teaching their child that their god doesn’t exist and loosing the child's salvation. Because after all salvation is through faith and not works.

Faith is mainly rooted in the bible as that is the only and ultimate reference point. If that is an incorrect statement I will retract it but I think it still makes since regardless. To not have faith in the words and teachings of the bible raises questions about ones faith in the religion and thus raises questions in that persons salvation.

Of course this is all the opinions and thoughts of a long time atheist who is well aware that not all Christians are the same.

Offline OldChurchGuy

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As near as I can tell, if one is convinced the Bible is the divinely inpsired and inerrant word of God, one is obligated to conclude it should be interpreted literally unless there are similes in the wording.  Thus, attempts by science to explain anything without a focus on God is seen as blasphemous and therefore a threat to their understanding of the truth. 

In answer to your question, I cannot fathom a caring loving God looking at people who do not embrace a young earth doctrine and delcaring they are doomed to Hell. 

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy
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Offline Jag

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I can't make sense of it but as a former Catholic, that's not surprising. I do remember that I didn't see a contradiction between a creator god and evolution when I was a kid - it seemed perfectly reasonable that evolution was the mechanism creator god used to make people. I've mentioned elsewhere that I didn't encounter bible literalists until I was an adulthood, but suspect that even as a kid I would have thought they were nuts. To me, Genesis was so obviously a story it never would have occurred to me that there were adults who didn't know that.

Actually, that still bends my brain a bit.
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Offline skeptic54768

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Anyone who says the world is billions of years old is contradicting God's Word:

Matthew 19:3-4
…3Some Pharisees came to Jesus, testing Him and asking, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason at all?" 4And He answered and said, "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE,

Notice Jesus does NOT say "He who created them billions of years after the beginning." This clearly indicates that Jesus Himself believes in instant creation with humans created at the beginning.

Old Earthers can't weasel out of this one. Either the Earth is billions of years old and Jesus is a liar, or Jesus was telling the truth and the Earth is young.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Online Azdgari

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That does imply[1] what you're saying, skep.  The question then becomes, would a real god care if someone took a particular holy book attached to its religion, such as the Bible, to be 100% accurate.
 1. Strictly speaking, Jesus is not saying in that passage that "he who created them from the beginning made them male and female" - he is asking his audience whether they have read this.  As I said, it does imply the same thing, but a literalist/legalist can still weasel out of that one.
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Offline Add Homonym

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True, it's just Genesis, which is 100% crap.

However, if you believe that Genesis is 100% carp, then that makes you rightly question everything else in the Bibel.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline jynnan tonnix

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Anyone who says the world is billions of years old is contradicting God's Word:

Matthew 19:3-4
…3Some Pharisees came to Jesus, testing Him and asking, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason at all?" 4And He answered and said, "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE,

Notice Jesus does NOT say "He who created them billions of years after the beginning." This clearly indicates that Jesus Himself believes in instant creation with humans created at the beginning.

Old Earthers can't weasel out of this one. Either the Earth is billions of years old and Jesus is a liar, or Jesus was telling the truth and the Earth is young.

It seems to me that one can strictly believe that it was god who created mankind, but that passage really doesn't specify the beginning  of creation itself. It could just as easily mean the beginning of human life.

Also, people of those days didn't have the kinds of evidence we have today regarding the age of the earth. It was not something which had been studied, and they neither knew nor could fathom how miniscule both the Earth & its inhabitants really were in relation to the universe. Neither had they any conception of such vast swaths of time. They had their creation story and they believed it. Jesus didn't have to be lying to say what he did. He was stating what was believed to be fact at that time. And even if he DID, through some godly intelligence, know otherwise, maybe it simply wasn't the time or place for an Earth-history lesson, and maybe getting his message out was more important than trying to re-teach the entire creation narrative because it would confuse everything, and simply didn't matter all that much in the major scheme of things.

Again, the whole Jesus redemption arc can make just as much sense whether Genesis is literal or symbolic, so why should it matter to god which a person embraces as they get the message right?


Offline Foxy Freedom

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Anyone who says the world is billions of years old is contradicting God's Word:

Matthew 19:3-4
…3Some Pharisees came to Jesus, testing Him and asking, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason at all?" 4And He answered and said, "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE,

Notice Jesus does NOT say "He who created them billions of years after the beginning." This clearly indicates that Jesus Himself believes in instant creation with humans created at the beginning.

Old Earthers can't weasel out of this one. Either the Earth is billions of years old and Jesus is a liar, or Jesus was telling the truth and the Earth is young.

The people who wrote the New Testament were liars. They made up a false religion which gives false information about the world. They were not just mistaken, they were liars. They were religious nutcases who knowingly made up false stories and wrote fake documents which they pretended were genuine. How many documents in the bible are actually written by the person they claim to be written by?
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Offline G-Roll

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It seems to me that one can strictly believe that it was god who created mankind, but that passage really doesn't specify the beginning  of creation itself. It could just as easily mean the beginning of human life.

Also, people of those days didn't have the kinds of evidence we have today regarding the age of the earth. It was not something which had been studied, and they neither knew nor could fathom how miniscule both the Earth & its inhabitants really were in relation to the universe. Neither had they any conception of such vast swaths of time. They had their creation story and they believed it. Jesus didn't have to be lying to say what he did. He was stating what was believed to be fact at that time. And even if he DID, through some godly intelligence, know otherwise, maybe it simply wasn't the time or place for an Earth-history lesson, and maybe getting his message out was more important than trying to re-teach the entire creation narrative because it would confuse everything, and simply didn't matter all that much in the major scheme of things.

Again, the whole Jesus redemption arc can make just as much sense whether Genesis is literal or symbolic, so why should it matter to god which a person embraces as they get the message right?

What are you implying that the bible was written by average everyday dudes!? Stinky ignorant old farts with big beards!?

If Genesis is symbolic then sin is symbolic. If sin is symbolic then Jesus sacrifice is symbolic. Unless you are Old Church Guy who has something else figured out :D

Offline Quesi

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Re: Why would God particularly care what you believe as far as evolution, etc.?
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2014, 11:14:46 AM »
Either the Earth is billions of years old and Jesus is a liar, or Jesus was telling the truth and the Earth is young.

Oh, I think that there are other possibilities.  Like perhaps Jesus was a man, with little formal education, who lived in the desert 2000 years ago. 

Perhaps he was wise and insightful,[1] but he certainly didn't understand the concept of "billions of years."  He didn't even know that he was on a globe orbiting the sun.

So let's not be too hard on Jesus. 
 1. which has little or nothing to do with formal education

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Why would God particularly care what you believe as far as evolution, etc.?
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2014, 11:19:39 AM »
Anyone who says the world is billions of years old is contradicting God's Word:

Matthew 19:3-4
…3Some Pharisees came to Jesus, testing Him and asking, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason at all?" 4And He answered and said, "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE,

Notice Jesus does NOT say "He who created them billions of years after the beginning." This clearly indicates that Jesus Himself believes in instant creation with humans created at the beginning.

Old Earthers can't weasel out of this one. Either the Earth is billions of years old and Jesus is a liar, or Jesus was telling the truth and the Earth is young.
Oh, so many assumptions within this post.  Let me count them.

Assumption 1:  That the Bible is literally true.  This despite the fact that there is no reason to make this assumption in the first place.  Even if you take that verse in 2 Timothy as gospel, all it says is that scripture is God-breathed, and thus suitable for teaching, etc, not that it's literally, 100% true.  A good teacher can use many things - a metaphor, a simile, or even a purely fictional story - to make their point.  There's simply no reason to make this assumption in the first place, and trying to justify it leads to no end of trouble.

Assumption 2:  That Jesus was referring to the beginning of the universe.  This is even less justified than the first assumption, hard as it might be to believe.  Not even Genesis attempts to pretend that human beings were around when YHWH or the Elohim were doing their work of creation.  Indeed, humans came pretty late in the grand scheme of things.  Since humans weren't around at the beginning of the universe, there's no reason to assume that Jesus was talking about it here.

Assumption 2a:  That the 'days' in Genesis refer to literal days.  Simply put, there were no humans around to measure how long it took; all we have is the Hebrew word "yom", which is commonly interpreted as 'day' but has other meanings as well.  Even in English, which has a half-million words or so, there are many words which sound and are spelled the same but have different meanings.  When I say the word 'bow', do I mean the weapon used to shoot arrows, to bend at the waist or neck, or to submit to someone?  You can't tell outside of context.  When I say the word 'desert', do I mean a tasty treat eaten after a meal or do I mean a bunch of arid, hot sand?  Again, you can't tell outside of context.

If English, with a half-million words, has homonyms that so easily confuse non-English speakers, imagine how much worse it must have been for the ancient Hebrews, who had a mere 8,700?  So it is with 'yom'.  It can mean a literal 24-hour period of time (from dawn to dawn, essentially), daytime (dawn to dusk), a year, an indeterminate amount of time, a reference to someone's age, or even a reference to such-and-such an age (ala the Stone Age or the Bronze Age), and there's others beyond that.  As detailed on this page, it is nowhere near as simple a matter as young-earth creationists like to claim it is.  Indeed, the most common argument, that using 'yom' with a number always refers to literal 24-hour days, isn't recognized by impartial scholars of Hebrew.  What matters here is what the author of the words meant, not what young-earth creationists want the words to mean.

Assumption 3:  That Jesus knew what he was talking about.  Why is this assumption made?  Even if you assume that Jesus was the son of YHWH, that's no guarantee that he had any particular knowledge of the time before he was born onto Earth, or indeed that he even existed at all before then.  He could easily have been born knowing what YHWH wanted him to know in order to do what he was supposed to do; there's simply no reason to assume that he shared in YHWH's assumed omniscience while he was a human, and thus no reason to claim that his words to those Pharisees were anything other than the repetition of what he learned about Hebrew theology.

Assumption 3a:  That YHWH is omniscient, all-knowing.  This is more complicated than it sounds at first.  Let's take the situation in the garden of Eden as an example.  There are a number of possible outcomes of him planting the two trees there:
  • Neither Adam nor Eve eats of the fruit of either tree.
  • Adam (or Eve) eats of the fruit of knowledge but not of life, counts as two cases.
  • Adam (or Eve) eats of the fruit of life but not of knowledge, counts as two cases.
  • Adam (or Eve) eat both fruits, counts as two cases.
  • Adam and Eve eat of the fruit of knowledge, but not of life.
  • Adam and Eve eat of the fruit of life, but not knowledge.
  • Adam and Eve eat of the fruit of knowledge, then of life.
  • Adam and Eve eat both fruits.
In short, there are eleven possible cases here.  How does YHWH know which one will happen?  Assuming he has omniscience, he could predict the consequences of each action, and even assign probabilities to them, but the one thing he could not determine is which of them will happen in advance (unless Adam & Eve are puppets who only act according to his will, which I think we can safely rule out).  In short, even omniscience doesn't give you sure foreknowledge of what will happen.

----

So, that's essentially six assumptions that went into skeptic's statement above (frankly, there's more, but there's a limit to how long I want this post to get), none of which can be safely assumed.  Per Occam's razor, this explanation is too badly flawed to stand.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2014, 11:23:41 AM by jaimehlers »

Offline mrbiscoop

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Re: Why would God particularly care what you believe as far as evolution, etc.?
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2014, 11:26:38 AM »
Anyone who says the world is billions of years old is contradicting God's Word:

Matthew 19:3-4
…3Some Pharisees came to Jesus, testing Him and asking, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason at all?" 4And He answered and said, "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE,

Notice Jesus does NOT say "He who created them billions of years after the beginning." This clearly indicates that Jesus Himself believes in instant creation with humans created at the beginning.

Old Earthers can't weasel out of this one. Either the Earth is billions of years old and Jesus is a liar, or Jesus was telling the truth and the Earth is young.

I'm voting for billions of years:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-26324968
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Why would God particularly care what you believe as far as evolution, etc.?
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2014, 11:35:16 AM »
Assumption 2a:  That the 'days' in Genesis refer to literal days.  Simply put, there were no humans around to measure how long it took; all we have is the Hebrew word "yom", which is commonly interpreted as 'day' but has other meanings as well.  Even in English, which has a half-million words or so, there are many words which sound and are spelled the same but have different meanings.  When I say the word 'bow', do I mean the weapon used to shoot arrows, to bend at the waist or neck, or to submit to someone?  You can't tell outside of context.  When I say the word 'desert', do I mean a tasty treat eaten after a meal or do I mean a bunch of arid, hot sand?  Again, you can't tell outside of context.

Actually, there is no leg to stand on with this either. Remember when the sun stopped for a day? The same word "yom" is used for day, referring to a 24 hour period. In order to maintain Old Earth beliefs, you have to twist this passage to mean that the sun stopped for millions of years, which is ridiculous obviously.

but the Old Earthers want the word "yom" to mean millions of years in Genesis and simultaneously "24 hours" in Joshua.

Who is being dishonest there?

(BTW, "desert" is sand and "dessert" is after dinner)
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Why would God particularly care what you believe as far as evolution, etc.?
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2014, 12:04:09 PM »
Actually, there is no leg to stand on with this either. Remember when the sun stopped for a day? The same word "yom" is used for day, referring to a 24 hour period. In order to maintain Old Earth beliefs, you have to twist this passage to mean that the sun stopped for millions of years, which is ridiculous obviously.
Weren't you paying attention?  The actual word 'yom' can mean a number of things.  In the case of Joshua "stopping the sun", it meant a fairly short, but indeterminate period of time - since people told time back then by measuring the apparent movement of the sun around the Earth, then assuming the sun actually stopped, there would have been no possible way to measure it and say that it actually did refer to 24 hours.  Therefore, your declaration that it meant a literal, 24-hour day is wrong.

In any case, the usage of 'yom' in that particular instance does not mean anything as far as other usages of 'yom' in the Bible.

Quote from: skeptic54768
but the Old Earthers want the word "yom" to mean millions of years in Genesis and simultaneously "24 hours" in Joshua.
That's because they understand the concept of context.  Is this a concept you understand?

Quote from: skeptic54768
Who is being dishonest there?
You.  Especially since you didn't respond to my other points, implying that you thought 'refuting' one would allow you to ignore the rest.

Quote from: skeptic54768
(BTW, "desert" is sand and "dessert" is after dinner)
My bad.  I should have said desert, as in to leave an organization without permission (ala, a deserting soldier).  When you're dealing with homonyms, context matters.

Offline mrbiscoop

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Re: Why would God particularly care what you believe as far as evolution, etc.?
« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2014, 12:07:02 PM »
Anyone who says the world is billions of years old is contradicting God's Word:

Matthew 19:3-4
…3Some Pharisees came to Jesus, testing Him and asking, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason at all?" 4And He answered and said, "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE,

Notice Jesus does NOT say "He who created them billions of years after the beginning." This clearly indicates that Jesus Himself believes in instant creation with humans created at the beginning.

Old Earthers can't weasel out of this one. Either the Earth is billions of years old and Jesus is a liar, or Jesus was telling the truth and the Earth is young.

I'm voting for billions of years:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-26324968
Hey skeptic, did you read the article I linked to? It's quite short and an easy read.
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Offline Mrjason

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Re: Why would God particularly care what you believe as far as evolution, etc.?
« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2014, 12:14:15 PM »
Quote from: skeptic54768
(BTW, "desert" is sand and "dessert" is after dinner)
My bad.  I should have said desert, as in to leave an organization without permission (ala, a deserting soldier). 

No you shouldn't, you were totally right.


When I say the word 'desert', do I mean a tasty treat eaten after a meal or do I mean a bunch of arid, hot sand?  Again, you can't tell outside of context.


dessert[1]
noun
/d'z:t/

desert[2]
verb
/d'z:t/

there may be slightly different emphases when spoken but someone with even a regionally different dialect wouldn't immediately be able to tell the difference out of context.
 1. https://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=dessert&meta=#hl=en&q=desert+definition
 2. https://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=dessert&meta=#hl=en&q=desert+definition

Offline Xero-Kill

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Re: Why would God particularly care what you believe as far as evolution, etc.?
« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2014, 12:27:45 PM »
Assumption 2a:  That the 'days' in Genesis refer to literal days.  Simply put, there were no humans around to measure how long it took; all we have is the Hebrew word "yom", which is commonly interpreted as 'day' but has other meanings as well.  Even in English, which has a half-million words or so, there are many words which sound and are spelled the same but have different meanings.  When I say the word 'bow', do I mean the weapon used to shoot arrows, to bend at the waist or neck, or to submit to someone?  You can't tell outside of context.  When I say the word 'desert', do I mean a tasty treat eaten after a meal or do I mean a bunch of arid, hot sand?  Again, you can't tell outside of context.

Actually, there is no leg to stand on with this either. Remember when the sun stopped for a day? The same word "yom" is used for day, referring to a 24 hour period. In order to maintain Old Earth beliefs, you have to twist this passage to mean that the sun stopped for millions of years, which is ridiculous obviously.

but the Old Earthers want the word "yom" to mean millions of years in Genesis and simultaneously "24 hours" in Joshua.

Who is being dishonest there?

(BTW, "desert" is sand and "dessert" is after dinner)

So this is ridiculous because had he meant "the Sun stood still for a day" makes sense, but "the Sun stood still for a million years" is, as you put it, "ridiculous obviously".

Sun stood still for a day is all good, but millions of years is a NO-GO Houston! Got it!

What is "ridiculous" to an omnipotent deity anyway? If he wanted the Sun to stand still for a million years, would it not?

As for your equivocation on "yom" it has clearly been stated that the word is far less precise than its modern day equivalent and even the modern day equivelant has a large degree of ambiguity. Let's explore the phrase: "Back in my day."

Does this refer to one specific day the person owned or does it refer to an unspecified length of time in this person's past? It may seem obvious to you and I, but to a person 2,000 years removed from now, reading that line that has been re-translated into at least 2 new languages, they might see the first example more fitting without the cultural context to know precisely what it means. It may get dismissed as simply sounding superfluous like all the "thees and thous" of Old English are to modern day English readers.

Also, did you notice how there were 6 rather devastating assumptions listed. You only addressed the one... this is what people are talking about when they say you dodge the larger issue at hand and only bother with the low hanging fruit, and then walk away feeling satisfied that you surely showed us a thing or two!
"Our fathers were our models for God. If our fathers bailed, what does that tell you about God? You have to consider the possibility that God does not like you. He never wanted you. In all probability, he hates you. This is not the worst thing that can happen."

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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Why would God particularly care what you believe as far as evolution, etc.?
« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2014, 12:52:34 PM »
No you shouldn't, you were totally right.
He had a point that the spelling was different.  I was picking words that were written the same.  Someone looking at 'desert' and 'dessert' wouldn't confuse them the way they might confuse 'desert' (an arid land) and 'desert' (to leave something); you have to look at the context (the writing around it) to interpret the meaning of the latter two.  While you are of course correct that English and many other languages have words that are pronounced the same (or nearly the same) but are written differently, that's its own problem; we aren't dealing with contemporary speakers of ancient Hebrew, after all.

A better example would be Japanese, which, like Hebrew, is syllabic.  For example, the word ? (go) has no less than five different meanings[1] and several of writing it in kanji[2], but it is pronounced exactly the same in every instance.  If someone writes ?, you can't tell which meaning they're referring to without the context.  But ancient Hebrew doesn't have the equivalent of kanji to distinguish between meanings.
 1. the number five, honorable, the board game, a language, and the word 'after'
 2. ??????????????????? just to name a few

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Why would God particularly care what you believe as far as evolution, etc.?
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2014, 12:54:06 PM »
Anyone who says the world is billions of years old is contradicting God's Word:

Matthew 19:3-4
…3Some Pharisees came to Jesus, testing Him and asking, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason at all?" 4And He answered and said, "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE,

Notice Jesus does NOT say "He who created them billions of years after the beginning." This clearly indicates that Jesus Himself believes in instant creation with humans created at the beginning.

Old Earthers can't weasel out of this one. Either the Earth is billions of years old and Jesus is a liar, or Jesus was telling the truth and the Earth is young.

I'm voting for billions of years:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-26324968

Have you seen that crystal with your own eyes? Have you examined it yourself? Or do you just have FAITH that the scientists are telling the truth because they wrote it down on paper?

Not much difference between that and faith in the Bible. Both require faith.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

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Re: Why would God particularly care what you believe as far as evolution, etc.?
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2014, 01:20:19 PM »
So you propose a great conspiracy, skep?  What would the motive be for such a bizarre conspiracy?

Keep in mind that all of the other scientists who have dated rocks using a variety of methods that all yielded millions-to-billions-scale ages would have to also be in on this conspiracy to hide the truth.

I happen to know some such scientists.  They havn't worked on that particular zircon crystal, but one other that is in my university was dated at 4.23 billion years.  Igneous rocks are routinely dated in my region of Ontario as being just over 1 billion years old.  Those would have to be faked as well, skep.  Why would anyone do that?
« Last Edit: February 24, 2014, 01:27:24 PM by Azdgari »
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Re: Why would God particularly care what you believe as far as evolution, etc.?
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2014, 02:38:32 PM »
Have you seen that crystal with your own eyes? Have you examined it yourself? Or do you just have FAITH that the scientists are telling the truth because they wrote it down on paper?

Not much difference between that and faith in the Bible. Both require faith.

You really don't understand what faith is.
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Why would God particularly care what you believe as far as evolution, etc.?
« Reply #22 on: February 24, 2014, 03:03:34 PM »
Have you seen that crystal with your own eyes? Have you examined it yourself? Or do you just have FAITH that the scientists are telling the truth because they wrote it down on paper?

Not much difference between that and faith in the Bible. Both require faith.
You must be getting pretty desperate to try the "but you have faith too!" card.

By the way, any response to the other contradictions I pointed out?

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Re: Why would God particularly care what you believe as far as evolution, etc.?
« Reply #23 on: February 24, 2014, 04:26:48 PM »
Have you seen that crystal with your own eyes? Have you examined it yourself? Or do you just have FAITH that the scientists are telling the truth because they wrote it down on paper?

Not much difference between that and faith in the Bible. Both require faith.

You really don't understand what faith is.

We share that special faith that our shoes don't fly around the room while we are sleeping and no recording devices are present.
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Re: Why would God particularly care what you believe as far as evolution, etc.?
« Reply #24 on: February 24, 2014, 06:08:13 PM »
Anyone who says the world is billions of years old is contradicting God's Word:

Matthew 19:3-4
…3Some Pharisees came to Jesus, testing Him and asking, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason at all?" 4And He answered and said, "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE,

Notice Jesus does NOT say "He who created them billions of years after the beginning." This clearly indicates that Jesus Himself believes in instant creation with humans created at the beginning.

Old Earthers can't weasel out of this one. Either the Earth is billions of years old and Jesus is a liar, or Jesus was telling the truth and the Earth is young.

I agree with Shep that this issue relates to the whole question of reliability of the bible. The original text is either correct or it isn't.

The conclusion has to be that the bible contradicts itself and reality. No one has mentioned that there are two different versions of creation and neither agrees with reality.

Just for fun....There are no dinosaurs in either account of creation, and Shep's god must have liked the dinosaurs since they were around for over 100 million years. It is only because of an accident with an asteroid, that Shep's god decided to give humans a hundred thousand years. Obviously we are just an afterthought to the main event.

When we compare the bible with reality we find that life did not start as male and female from the beginning. Some still aren't male and female, so that statement is wrong too.
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Offline Mrjason

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Re: Why would God particularly care what you believe as far as evolution, etc.?
« Reply #25 on: February 25, 2014, 05:31:14 AM »
Have you seen that crystal with your own eyes? Have you examined it yourself? Or do you just have FAITH that the scientists are telling the truth because they wrote it down on paper?

Not much difference between that and faith in the Bible. Both require faith.

There's a huge difference.

We have good grounds to believe that this is true, it is fairly reasonable to accept that the picture is what it says it is.
The crux here is the degree of reasonableness attached to the belief.
I have never been to America.
I have faith in it's existence because of the overwhelming evidence that it does exist, it is extremely reasonable for me to believe this.
Compare this with the belief, held by some, that Elvis isn't dead. This is a belief that would not be very reasonable given the amount of evidence to the contrary.

Belief in the bible requires extreme faith as there is very little reason to do so. Just as there is very little reason to believe Hatter23's shoes are magical flying shoes. Can you have faith in Hatter23's shoes?
I doubt that you could, however you equate this type of unreasonable belief with mrbiscoop's very reasonable belief in the evidence provided by the article.

Please, don't play the "it's all faith card" because it doesn't wash.

Elvis is alive or America is real which is a more reasonable faith ;)
« Last Edit: February 25, 2014, 05:42:49 AM by Mrjason »

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Why would God particularly care what you believe as far as evolution, etc.?
« Reply #26 on: February 26, 2014, 01:57:44 AM »
Have you seen that crystal with your own eyes? Have you examined it yourself? Or do you just have FAITH that the scientists are telling the truth because they wrote it down on paper?

Not much difference between that and faith in the Bible. Both require faith.

There's a huge difference.

We have good grounds to believe that this is true, it is fairly reasonable to accept that the picture is what it says it is.
The crux here is the degree of reasonableness attached to the belief.
I have never been to America.
I have faith in it's existence because of the overwhelming evidence that it does exist, it is extremely reasonable for me to believe this.
Compare this with the belief, held by some, that Elvis isn't dead. This is a belief that would not be very reasonable given the amount of evidence to the contrary.

Belief in the bible requires extreme faith as there is very little reason to do so. Just as there is very little reason to believe Hatter23's shoes are magical flying shoes. Can you have faith in Hatter23's shoes?
I doubt that you could, however you equate this type of unreasonable belief with mrbiscoop's very reasonable belief in the evidence provided by the article.

Please, don't play the "it's all faith card" because it doesn't wash.

Elvis is alive or America is real which is a more reasonable faith ;)

You make good points but I notice that you did not say that you have seen and examined the crystal with your own eyes. This would make it a belief. Science is a belief whether you agree with that or not.

Would you say that you agree with the scientists of thousands of years ago? Of course not. Would you agree with scientists form hundreds of years ago? Of course not. Yet, at the time those scientists were looked at as "the guys with all the answers" and non-believers believed whatever they said. Now we get scientists today saying, "they were wrong!" So when you guys place your faith in these scientists today, I can 100% guarantee that years from now future scientists will be laughing at what scientists today thought in the same way you view those old scientists from aeons ago.

So the question I have is, "Why should I believe anything that scientists of today say?"
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Why would God particularly care what you believe as far as evolution, etc.?
« Reply #27 on: February 26, 2014, 02:01:24 AM »
We share that special faith that our shoes don't fly around the room while we are sleeping and no recording devices are present.

Reductio ad absurdum.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Mrjason

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Re: Why would God particularly care what you believe as far as evolution, etc.?
« Reply #28 on: February 26, 2014, 05:04:54 AM »
You make good points but I notice that you did not say that you have seen and examined the crystal with your own eyes. This would make it a belief. Science is a belief whether you agree with that or not.

This is what I have said. It is a belief. I was saying that some beliefs are more reasonable than others. The belief that the earth orbits the sun for example.

Would you say that you agree with the scientists of thousands of years ago? Of course not. Would you agree with scientists form hundreds of years ago? Of course not. Yet, at the time those scientists were looked at as "the guys with all the answers" and non-believers believed whatever they said. Now we get scientists today saying, "they were wrong!" So when you guys place your faith in these scientists today, I can 100% guarantee that years from now future scientists will be laughing at what scientists today thought in the same way you view those old scientists from aeons ago.

So the question I have is, "Why should I believe anything that scientists of today say?"

I find your question quite odd given the context. You say that science is unreliable and are, quite rightly, reluctant to believe all that scientists say. However you trust a book that was written, in part, thousands of years ago.

Some of what was discovered by thinkers in the past still holds true i.e. a2 + b2 = c2. What happens in science is that some findings stand the test of time,despite constant review, and are kept. The theories that do not hold true are replaced. 
As I said in my first post, the difference in types of faith is the degree of reasonableness.
Is it reasonable to trust scientists who have produced peer reviewed work and have gathered evidence to support their claims. I think it is.

So, why should you believe anything that scientists of today say? Because they offer the most reasonable explanation for the things that we observe.