Author Topic: resources for ot heaven & hell.  (Read 130 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline eh!

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1309
  • Darwins +46/-30
  • Gender: Male
  • jimmy hendrix is jesus
resources for ot heaven & hell.
« on: May 27, 2014, 04:57:31 AM »
Read on a thread here somewhere the ot does not speak of heaven & hell,,,


i don't particularly want to read the whole ot to find out.

so how does heaven and hell fit into the ot??
Signature goes here...

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 12209
  • Darwins +658/-28
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
Re: resources for ot heaven & hell.
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2014, 10:06:23 AM »
I wrote a long, detailed, referenced post explaining it, but it puked.  So, let me try again.

Heaven and Hell, as understood by xians, does not exist in the OT.  H&H are more recent ideas (first through fifth centuries CE) and are mostly detached from jewish tradition. 

In the OT, where you see "Heaven" it is a translation for the word "shamayim", which meant "sky".[1]  It was also the place where yhwh lived.  The sky was also referred to as "firmament", which was a solid dome over the earth that held back the celestial ocean.[2]  In gen 1:8, the firmament is called "heaven".  yhwh's throne was above the firmament.  Presumably, this was underwater, given the celestial ocean.

So jews believed in a heaven, but it was not a destination for their souls, really.

As for hell, that is a concept that was developed in a Hellenistic culture, long after jesus H was gone.  Where you see it in the OT, it is a translation of the word "sheol", which means "pit or grave"  or the underworld.[3]  It was where all the dead went and not necessarily a place of torment or punishment.  When judaism later developed a notion that the messiah would bring the dead back to life, sheol became a kind of waiting room.  Because of the Greek culture of the era, it is sometimes translated as "hades", which was a Greek version of the underworld, but not quite the same thing.

 1. http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=H8064&t=KJV
 2. http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H7549&t=KJV
 3. http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H7585&t=KJV
Links:
Rules
Guides & Tutorials

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline Disciple of Sagan

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 975
  • Darwins +60/-0
  • Gender: Female
  • Current mood: Malcontent
Re: resources for ot heaven & hell.
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2014, 12:09:29 PM »
That's what I have learned, also.

In addition... and I cannot find the link to the article... "Hell" was originally only meant for the rebellious angels and their offspring. It was later "tweaked" by the Church to include those humans who had turned away from God.

Does this sound about right?
The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 12209
  • Darwins +658/-28
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
Re: resources for ot heaven & hell.
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2014, 12:50:08 PM »
sort of.  Judaism has no rebellious angels. That was a xian contrivance in Revelation.  The Devil and Hell were concocted as a stick with which to beat people into fidelity and make sure they did not leave the burgeoning cult. 
Links:
Rules
Guides & Tutorials

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline Disciple of Sagan

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 975
  • Darwins +60/-0
  • Gender: Female
  • Current mood: Malcontent
Re: resources for ot heaven & hell.
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2014, 01:16:16 PM »
Found the article!
http://www.economist.com/news/christmas/21568590-hundreds-years-hell-has-been-most-fearful-place-human-imagination-it

If you have the time, screwtape, I was wondering if the author got his facts right. I've pointed to the article in the past and want to make sure I am not perpetuating faulty information.
The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 12209
  • Darwins +658/-28
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
Re: resources for ot heaven & hell.
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2014, 01:33:01 PM »
looks about right to me.  Well written.
Links:
Rules
Guides & Tutorials

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline GoatMan

  • Freshman
  • *
  • Posts: 46
  • Darwins +1/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: resources for ot heaven & hell.
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2014, 02:03:54 PM »
That ECONOMIST article mentions that Isaiah speaks of heaven+he'll. here is a passage that is at the very end of Isaiah (ch 66)

22 “As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me,” declares the Lord, “so will your name and descendants endure. 23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the Lord. 24 “And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”

 the Bible speaks of different places we might call "hell"

In revelation Hades (Greek word for Sheol?) is thrown into the lake of fire (20:14)

That's a quite brief Biblical tour of the afterlife

Offline eh!

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1309
  • Darwins +46/-30
  • Gender: Male
  • jimmy hendrix is jesus
Re: resources for ot heaven & hell.
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2014, 03:03:32 PM »
I almost can't believe this. i assumed heaven and hell was.intrinsic to ot. what about the gnashing of teeth . Godlesz dam i knew when i was a cultural xian i should have read the bible instead of mumbling my way thrthe songs and recitations.



Signature goes here...

Offline eh!

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1309
  • Darwins +46/-30
  • Gender: Male
  • jimmy hendrix is jesus
Re: resources for ot heaven & hell.
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2014, 03:05:11 PM »
I will thank you guys for reply when i can confirm yr info is true.  it can't be tho it is opposite to my xian education .
Signature goes here...

Offline Jesuis

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 992
  • Darwins +10/-160
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
  • User posts join approval queueModerated
Re: resources for ot heaven & hell.
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2014, 03:19:16 PM »
Heaven and hell are words created by the human imagination devoid of knowing God.
Any resource we find is the creation of human imagination.
What would be the point of saying it is an accurate representation when it is imagined. Might as well use a dictionary.
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 12209
  • Darwins +658/-28
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
Re: resources for ot heaven & hell.
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2014, 07:10:41 AM »
I almost can't believe this.

believe it.

i assumed heaven and hell was.intrinsic to ot.

nope.

what about the gnashing of teeth .

new testament. Matthew 8:12, 13:42, 50, 22:13, 24:51, 25:30, Luke 13:28

Godlesz dam i knew when i was a cultural xian i should have read the bible instead of mumbling my way thrthe songs and recitations.

Ya.  reading the bible can be an eye-opener.  It was what finally made me an atheist. 

edit: If you do endeavor to read the bible, I suggest you do so at your local library with the interpreter's bible next to you.  It will help you decipher the weird and crazy stuff.  Plus, a lot of bibles "translate away" the incongruencies.  For example, god (yhwh/ el/ elohim) is refered to in the plural (self reference a couple times!) five times in genesis.  A lot of bibles just gloss over that.  Interpreter's does not.  And it explains weird phrases. 

For example, gen 24:2 abraham makes people swear an oath and "put thy hand under my thigh".  In this case "thigh" is a genteel way of saying "balls".[1]  Yeah.  His servant swore on Abraham's balls, literally, by holding them.  But you wouldn't know that if you were just reading the bible.  You would need the interpreter's bible to find that out.  Awesome, no?
 1. http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=H3409&t=KJV
« Last Edit: May 28, 2014, 07:18:32 AM by screwtape »
Links:
Rules
Guides & Tutorials

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.