Author Topic: Foolish [#2794]  (Read 696 times)

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Offline pianodwarf

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Foolish [#2794]
« on: February 19, 2014, 07:18:06 PM »
I am writing to share with you my opinion

You say God planned every abortion on the planet... Using this to argue against his existence. Surely your argument is mute. According to the Bible we live in a fallen world and we have free choice... We sin, abortion is an epidemic yes a result of choice, not God'schoice.


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Offline shnozzola

Re: Foolish [#2794]
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2014, 08:25:59 PM »
Quote
  ..... we live in a fallen world....

Gotta tell ya.  I really despise this type of theism, this aspect of theism.  Can't you just enjoy the thrill of your chance at life?  To say the world is 'fallen' ?  Such a sad way to think of reality.

I suggest you join the debate to see if atheists can't brighten your outlook.
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Offline Jag

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Re: Foolish [#2794]
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2014, 09:29:12 PM »
I am writing to share with you my opinion

You say God planned every abortion on the planet... Using this to argue against his existence.
No, not really. That particular item simply points out that if "God" is omni-anything really, then he has to be responsible for the outcomes that are the result of his design flaw (you know, the one that allows us to inherit "sin" from Adam and Eve - what kind of jerk would inflict that nonsense on every generation born just because some chick ate an apple?)
Quote

Surely your argument is mute.
I'm assuming you actually mean that the argument is "moot" (open to debate but ultimately without answer), not "mute" (unable to speak).
Quote
According to the Bible we live in a fallen world
According to Harry Potter, you are a Muggle, and so am I, and as such we are barred from the world of magic.
Quote
and we have free choice...
That's actually is open to debate
Quote
We sin,
I'm going to have to ask you to defend this remark - define sin, and explain how it relates to the next clause of your sentence:
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abortion is an epidemic
And when you are done with that, provide some explanation of this "epidemic" please. At what point did abortion become "an epidemic"? What exactly do you mean by that?
Quote
yes a result of choice, not God'schoice.
Then you deny his omni-qualities?
My tolerance for BS is limited, and I use up most of it IRL.

Online Nam

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Re: Foolish [#2794]
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2014, 09:33:38 PM »
Quote
  ..... we live in a fallen world....

Gotta tell ya.  I really despise this type of theism, this aspect of theism.  Can't you just enjoy the thrill of your chance at life?  To say the world is 'fallen' ?  Such a sad way to think of reality.

I suggest you join the debate to see if atheists can't brighten your outlook.

They're probably Catholic.

;)

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline shnozzola

Re: Foolish [#2794]
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2014, 09:40:04 PM »
^^^Tony - my god, what do you think of that new pope ?  He'll be the ruin of us all.  How can he be so... so... kind... to EVERYONE?   :)
“The best thing for being sad," replied Merlin, beginning to puff and blow, "is to learn something."  ~ T. H. White
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Foolish [#2794]
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2014, 11:41:56 AM »
Quote
  ..... we live in a fallen world....

Gotta tell ya.  I really despise this type of theism, this aspect of theism.  Can't you just enjoy the thrill of your chance at life?  To say the world is 'fallen' ?  Such a sad way to think of reality.

I suggest you join the debate to see if atheists can't brighten your outlook.

They're probably Catholic.

;)

-Nam

Actually 'fallen world' isn't that Catholic of a term. Generally fundamentalists use it.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Foolish [#2794]
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2014, 11:44:32 AM »
I am writing to share with you my opinion

You say God planned every abortion on the planet... Using this to argue against his existence. Surely your argument is mute. According to the Bible we live in a fallen world and we have free choice... We sin, abortion is an epidemic yes a result of choice, not God'schoice.


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So you are saying this is a 'fallen world.' Was it Gods plan that it happened which, means he is at fault; Or it was God's choice not to let it become so, which means he is at fault?

Let your avoidance of this through dodging, or not bothering to respond, commence.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Online Nam

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Re: Foolish [#2794]
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2014, 11:51:34 AM »
Quote
  ..... we live in a fallen world....

Gotta tell ya.  I really despise this type of theism, this aspect of theism.  Can't you just enjoy the thrill of your chance at life?  To say the world is 'fallen' ?  Such a sad way to think of reality.

I suggest you join the debate to see if atheists can't brighten your outlook.

They're probably Catholic.

;)

-Nam

Actually 'fallen world' isn't that Catholic of a term. Generally fundamentalists use it.

It was mainly in jest about the dark[1] nature of Catholicism than anything else.

-Nam
 1. as in Flagellanting
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Foolish [#2794]
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2014, 11:53:08 AM »

It was mainly in jest about the dark[1] nature of Catholicism than anything else.

-Nam
 1. as in Flagellanting
I kind of figured so, but I got pendantic about it.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Tonus

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Re: Foolish [#2794]
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2014, 03:17:40 PM »
Gotta tell ya.  I really despise this type of theism, this aspect of theism.  Can't you just enjoy the thrill of your chance at life?  To say the world is 'fallen' ?  Such a sad way to think of reality.
What is one of the most effective ways to control a person?  Crush his self-esteem.

Imagine how effective that tactic is when you manage to convince the person to crush his own self-esteem?  There may be no more effective way to control people.

Now, think of all of these theists who sullenly claim that humans are lowly, fallen, worthless creatures who can never deserve god's mercy.  The are not just claiming that they are worthless, but that they cannot possibly ever have sufficient worth to even deserve to live.  What is the old quote? "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."

Offline screwtape

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Re: Foolish [#2794]
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2014, 03:39:55 PM »
Surely your argument is mute.

Not "mute", "moot". 

According to the Bible we live in a fallen world and we have free choice...

Does it actually say we have free choice?  Where does it say that?  I read a lot about god having a plan and god's will being done. 

And in any event, Mother Goose says Jack traded a cow for magic beans.  Does that mean there really was a Jack who climbed a beanstalk into the clouds?  The bible and Mother Goose are roughly equivalent.


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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Foolish [#2794]
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2014, 05:41:27 PM »
Why did god give us a crappy fallen world to live in? Where is the well-propped up world that he showed me on the new tenant tour? I never signed a lease on "fallen world". I want to see the landlord! I want my security deposit back!  ;D
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Boots

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Re: Foolish [#2794]
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2014, 04:45:35 PM »
Quote
According to the Bible we live in a fallen world
According to Harry Potter, you are a Muggle, and so am I, and as such we are barred from the world of magic.

NOT SO FAST!!  you could be a squib!
* Religion: institutionalized superstition, period.

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Offline Quesi

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Re: Foolish [#2794]
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2014, 05:33:40 PM »
It is all so confusing. 

I mean, Noah's contemporaries really pissed god off.  And god did something about it.  He killed them.  ALL of them.  Unborn babies and toddlers and puppies and everyone else.

So were those folks more "fallen" than we are? 

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Foolish [#2794]
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2014, 04:40:10 PM »
[snark alert]

There you atheists go again, expecting gods to be consistent; expecting gods to actually do something about bad stuff; expecting gods to really behave like loving parents; expecting gods to show up and be visible to everyone equally; expecting gods to understand the human need for knowledge about the world; expecting gods to treat the earth like they care; expecting gods to realize that humans think "soon" refers to minutes or even days, but not millennia.

You atheists are so stupid--we religious people know that we have to lower our expectations to meet the gods where they are; we have to assume that anything and everything is a sign from the all-powerful;  we have to mentally change "bad" and "neutral" to "good" so gods only do "good"; we have to accept that a god is a dictator and has the right to reward us lavishly, ignore us completely, or abuse, torture, inflict all kinds of harm and kill us-- just because. We are deliriously happy with a few stupid godly tricks every once in a while. For us it's enough to see god's blurry image on toast, and to hear demonic voices in rock music.

Meanwhile you dumb atheists want gods to do all kinds of impossible sh!t, like: [whiny voice] end all war, stop global warming, get rid of all disease-carrying insects, give regular rainfall to drought-stricken regions, have no blizzards, tornadoes or floods in populated areas, make all land mines disappear from the ground, reverse Down's syndrome and dementia, make sure all babies are born healthy and to parents who want them and can care for them, keep wild animal populations and their natural habitats in balance, restore arms and legs to amputees.

Why would all-powerful, loving, caring gods be interested in any of that crap? Just because life on earth would be much better, and humans cannot [yet] do these things?  The Kardashian family made lots of money last year. North Korea didn't win the bid to host the next Olympics. If you are reading this, you are not dead. Isn't that enough proof for you to believe in gods? So what if gods prefer to write cryptic messages on walls in blood and help sports teams win games instead of stopping all child molestation. Who are we to question their priorities? They are gods. Case closed.

In sum, we know we have to fill in all the blanks and solve all human problems ourselves, because gods can't be expected to drop everything in their busy schedule of ignoring the entire universe to attend to the insignificant lives of the lowly worms they created in order to glorify their exalted names.

Why would you atheists be so silly as to expect anything at all from a god? Just because the gods in ancient texts and stories did all those amazing things?  Just because the gods demand strict obedience, utter devotion and constant worship from humans?

You atheists really think that gods are supposed to behave as advertised. Hah! Get real. We religious people know better. Remember, it takes more faith to be an atheist than to be religious. &)
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Foolish [#2794]
« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2014, 04:58:51 PM »
Quote
You say God planned every abortion on the planet...

Yes he does. He just happens to call them "miscarriages".

Quote
According to the Bible we live in a fallen world....

"Help! We've fallen and we can't get up!" Better get AfterLife Alert.
The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Foolish [#2794]
« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2014, 11:23:20 AM »
You say God planned every abortion on the planet... Using this to argue against his existence. Surely your argument is mute. According to the Bible we live in a fallen world and we have free choice... We sin, abortion is an epidemic yes a result of choice, not God'schoice.

So in a nutshell, god sits around watching all the bad things, with the power to stop them, and does nothing.
So much for all loving, if mere humans would do better.

As for fallen world, I do not see your point, humanity is as powerful, healthy and prosperous as ever. Much more so than the dark ages 9_9. (cant say the same for the climate and ecosystem health...)

Lastly, what the hell is with the whole abortion debacle? Sure, its human, sure its alive. But would you rather the kid to be born with no one to truely love it, or would you prefer it to not exist? (Actually, not the best question to ask...)
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Foolish [#2794]
« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2014, 03:13:33 PM »
God clearly does not want at least 25% of the fertilized eggs to be born anyway, so he aborts them himself. Then the zygotes go to heaven to spend all eternity in paradise doing whatever zygote angels do.  What parent could ask for a better situation for their child than a guaranteed eternity in paradise with god?[1]

Seems like given those parameters, every pregnant woman should have an abortion so her child will go straight to heaven, skipping all the sinful fallen world stuff. Only following the godly example. If the world is so fallen and god is not up to the task of fixing it, why have babies?

Of the babies that make it to term, god lets lots of them die from stuff he could easily prevent, like malaria and parasites. We know god could save them, because ordinary human beings have already done all the heavy lifting.  We invented vaccines and other medicines that work regardless of whether the people involved have any connection to a god.

Isn't it amazing how babies survive so much better when people have medicines and no god (Japan, Denmark) but die an awful lot when there is only god and no medicine (Mauritania, Afghanistan)? Imagine what good could be done if god bothered to intervene where the people have no medicine?

 1. Isn't that what Christians say to comfort the parents when a baby dies? "The little angel has gone to be with Jesus."
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Foolish [#2794]
« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2014, 09:41:40 PM »
/\
Ignorance is bliss...
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Foolish [#2794]
« Reply #19 on: April 24, 2014, 02:37:06 AM »
I am writing to share with you my opinion

You say God planned every abortion on the planet... Using this to argue against his existence. Surely your argument is mute. According to the Bible we live in a fallen world and we have free choice... We sin, abortion is an epidemic yes a result of choice, not God's choice.
I have serious difficulties with those posters who distort or deny God's Word whilst claiming to be Christians:

http://rhrealitycheck.org/article/2012/06/03/biblical-abortion-christians-view-1/

"In Numbers 5 [Numbers 5:11-31], we have instructions given by God to Moses regarding situations where a husband is fiercely jealous of his wife, and there aren’t witnesses to prove whether she did or did not have an affair. She is to be taken before the priest who will mix up a potion and have her swear an oath of cursing before drinking it. “And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed.” Otherwise, in poetic terms, it is described that she will lose the baby, by judgment of God.
...
My conclusion as a Christian is that the Bible is not anti-abortion. Rather, there is a non-Biblically-based movement that pretends to use the Bible as its justification for attacking women who do not carry a pregnancy to term (even if it was an unintended loss)."


God, describes to men how to induce an abortion.
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”