Author Topic: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.  (Read 7861 times)

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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« Reply #377 on: March 03, 2014, 06:56:19 PM »
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But there's no guarantee that what those people teach is at all accurate. 
That is not relevant for the thread.

(If the quoting is weird on the above, it is Jesuis' fault. I don't know who he is responding too.)

I bolded the thing he said that clarifies everything. He is in love with the process, and cares less about he content.

I used those standards with a couple of women in my life, and it didn't work there either.

The least he could do as acknowledge that there are other ways to look at he world or something. To insist that teaching bullshit is a high-level endeavor, worthy of praise, doesn't cut i with most of us.

Make that all of us.

No matter how right you actually are, Jesuis, (and I don't think you are} you seem to have no way of getting your point across.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline Jesuis

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Re: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« Reply #378 on: March 03, 2014, 07:16:43 PM »
You cannot debate like that.

Lol! Who debating, you certainly aren't. A debate involves opposing viewpoints.  Not you just telling us your opinion. We can and do provide verification for our viewpoints. But as yet you haven't even tried to back up nor prove anything you claim. The onus is yours remember you are the one making the claim, not me, not us. That's debate 101
That's because you are not looking at the evidence.

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No I asking you to back up your claims which you have yet to do.
This is where your belief gets in the way of the evidence. I produce the evidence of the book that theists are teaching about God -- you are claiming there is no God. We are not on the same page re - evidence.

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The Higgs Bozon was theorised in the 1960's and was discovered in 2012. So it is not theoretical at all.
For you maybe -- for me it is theoretical. I describe it from what I read. You would not be able to convince me otherwise unless I actually know and experience it as the others have. But since I can only read about it. I tell you it is the same experience as I read these books. No hidden agenda. I have no belief either way - it is just information.

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Which are totally irrelevant, without evidence, or a means to verify there contents.
You need to read it to verify its contents. You cannot do anything else - Nor am I expecting you too.

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You can with the Higgs Bozon Then you admit to having no evidence for your claims. thank you for the concession. 
Yes I know -- So says the followers of the theists too. Thank you for acknowledging there is a way to have knowledge and there is a way to knowing. Both independent and where one experience has more strength than the other.

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Nonsense! You cannot be taught that which does not exist. Once you have proven if you can, that they exist, then perhaps you might be able to learn.
We have done that already. The followers of theists testify it exists. They do the science of knowing. How can I know that the higgs bozon is real. I have to do something -- you already know this truth. Maybe you cannot understand the difference between knowledge gained through reading and knowledge gained through experience.

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But until then it can only be considered as BS. And one small point is, as you say, if you can only know through some form of education and theoretical knowledge, then how can you even say theist know god. it should be theist theorise that they know god. You are contradicting your own argument.
Don't be silly I can talk about the higgs bozon existence just like I can talk about what I have read. You have the books. Where does a theist claim not to know God and where is he teaching his students something else? It is verified by their students.

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That is an appeal to authority fallacy.
.
Hey!! atheism has no authority - don't lecture me on authority fallacy.
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline SevenPatch

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Re: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« Reply #379 on: March 03, 2014, 07:36:52 PM »
The Higgs Bozon was theorised in the 1960's and was discovered in 2012. So it is not theoretical at all.

For you maybe -- for me it is theoretical. I describe it from what I read. You would not be able to convince me otherwise unless I actually know and experience it as the others have. But since I can only read about it. I tell you it is the same experience as I read these books. No hidden agenda. I have no belief either way - it is just information.


This is just utterly ridiculous.

You've never experienced or know what it is like to fall off a 30 story building either.  Yet you are able to conclude from other experiences of falling a short distance that it might hurt or even kill you if you were to fall from a 30 story building.  Do I need to convince you that you will die if you jump from a 30 story building since you did not experience it before?  No, we can do experiments that don't involve you jumping, in which it can be demonstrated what will happen.

You also admit that this "God" character is theoretical right, you have not experienced or know it, so "God" is a theory.  Actually, "God" isn't even a theory because "God" has never made it past the hypothesis stage, nothing has been observed or tested yet in regards to "God".  "God" is merely an idea.

EDIT: Spelling.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2014, 07:44:05 PM by SevenPatch »
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Offline Jesuis

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Re: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« Reply #380 on: March 03, 2014, 07:38:17 PM »
(If the quoting is weird on the above, it is Jesuis' fault. I don't know who he is responding too.)
Sorry about that.

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I bolded the thing he said that clarifies everything. He is in love with the process, and cares less about he content.
Not really. Step by step is the only way forward.  My first step is the acceptance that there is a correct way to evaluate the evidence, that the nature of the person evaluating the evidence must be one who is qualified to do so. I could not evaluate the evidence for the existence of the Higgs Bozon and so there would be no funding for it and even if there was it would have been scrapped ages ago. Thank God they had the right people seeing this process through.

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The least he could do as acknowledge that there are other ways to look at he world or something. To insist that teaching bullshit is a high-level endeavor, worthy of praise, doesn't cut i with most of us.

Make that all of us.

No matter how right you actually are, Jesuis, (and I don't think you are} you seem to have no way of getting your point across.
First lets get pass this hurdle of title proposal. Theists know and atheist don't. 
That evidence is simply a knowledge gained through reading observation and conclusion.
The nitty gritty is after - "the probablities of Gods existence" according to the Theists.
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline SevenPatch

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Re: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« Reply #381 on: March 03, 2014, 07:43:24 PM »

First lets get pass this hurdle of title proposal. Theists know and atheist don't. 
That evidence is simply a knowledge gained through reading observation and conclusion.
The nitty gritty is after - "the probablities of Gods existence" according to the Theists.

Why would the nitty gritty of "the probabilities of Gods existence" be after you've already admitted that "God" exists by accepting that "Theists know God"?

EDIT: Spelling.
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Offline Jesuis

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Re: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« Reply #382 on: March 03, 2014, 07:51:24 PM »
This is just utterly ridiculus.

You've never experienced or know what it is like to fall off a 30 story building either.  Yet you are able to conclude from other experiences of falling a short distance that it might hurt or even kill you if you were to fall from a 30 story building.  Do I need to convince you that you will die if you jump from a 30 story building since you did not experience it before?  No, we can do experiements that don't involve you jumping, in which it can be demonstrated what will happen.

You also admit that this "God" character is theoretical right, you have not experienced or know it, so "God" is a theory.
Yes and No! You cannot convince or prove I will die. Yes you can prove maybe this will happen.  Everyday in the news people escape dying from many things, and no one knows how or why they survived despite all the experiments they can do. Even in hospitals Doctors come to the conclusion that someone will die and then they don't -- they have beaten all the odds. They have witnessed a miracle - so they claim. So that is wrong when it comes to the truth around conscious life.

As for God is a theory -- no! it is not  ---  the Theists do not claim it is a theory. The title is Theists know and atheists don't. Theists become theists through a method. They teach the method. We know what theists claim - they write it in their books. The title is in respect to their claim and also in respect to us atheists who do not know. We have no method and no teacher.
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline Jesuis

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Re: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« Reply #383 on: March 03, 2014, 08:01:27 PM »

First lets get pass this hurdle of title proposal. Theists know and atheist don't. 
That evidence is simply a knowledge gained through reading observation and conclusion.
The nitty gritty is after - "the probablities of Gods existence" according to the Theists.

Why would the nitty gritty of "the probabilities of Gods existence" be after you've already admitted that "God" exists by accepting that "Theists know God"?

EDIT: Spelling.
Thanks
Its all about getting the right definitions. Two believers - Muslim and Christian can fight each other over their beliefs all day long and there will be no progress on either side. There is no authority.
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline Jesuis

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Re: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« Reply #384 on: March 03, 2014, 08:05:32 PM »
You also admit that this "God" character is theoretical right, you have not experienced or know it, so "God" is a theory.  Actually, "God" isn't even a theory because "God" has never made it past the hypothesis stage, nothing has been observed or tested yet in regards to "God".  "God" is merely an idea.

EDIT: Spelling.
For some yes and for some no.
I do not know the Higgs Bozon apart from the info I have read and the breaking news - for me it is an idea. For the people who have done the experiment it is not.
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline SevenPatch

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Re: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« Reply #385 on: March 03, 2014, 08:06:13 PM »
This is just utterly ridiculous.

You've never experienced or know what it is like to fall off a 30 story building either.  Yet you are able to conclude from other experiences of falling a short distance that it might hurt or even kill you if you were to fall from a 30 story building.  Do I need to convince you that you will die if you jump from a 30 story building since you did not experience it before?  No, we can do experiments that don't involve you jumping, in which it can be demonstrated what will happen.

You also admit that this "God" character is theoretical right, you have not experienced or know it, so "God" is a theory.
Yes and No! You cannot convince or prove I will die. Yes you can prove maybe this will happen.  Everyday in the news people escape dying from many things, and no one knows how or why they survived despite all the experiments they can do. Even in hospitals Doctors come to the conclusion that someone will die and then they don't -- they have beaten all the odds. They have witnessed a miracle - so they claim. So that is wrong when it comes to the truth around conscious life.

As for God is a theory -- no! it is not  ---  the Theists do not claim it is a theory. The title is Theists know and atheists don't. Theists become theists through a method. They teach the method. We know what theists claim - they write it in their books. The title is in respect to their claim and also in respect to us atheists who do not know. We have no method and no teacher.

Sigh, you completely missed the point.  EDIT:  The point is you wouldn't do something that would certainly kill you because you haven't experienced it.  Like, you wouldn't cut your head off.  You know, if you cut your head off you will die without needing to experience it first.  Why because you can come to rational conclusions which are true without experiencing them.

No, actually, we can figure out how people survive certain situations where they could have died.

I'm tired of your dogma and closed mind.

« Last Edit: March 03, 2014, 08:20:42 PM by SevenPatch »
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Offline SevenPatch

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Re: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« Reply #386 on: March 03, 2014, 08:08:28 PM »
You also admit that this "God" character is theoretical right, you have not experienced or know it, so "God" is a theory.  Actually, "God" isn't even a theory because "God" has never made it past the hypothesis stage, nothing has been observed or tested yet in regards to "God".  "God" is merely an idea.

For some yes and for some no.
I do not know the Higgs Bozon apart from the info I have read and the breaking news - for me it is an idea. For the people who have done the experiment it is not.

So what is this, some schrodinger's cat woo now.

The Higgs boson is both real and not real.

"God" is both real and not real.

Everything is both real and not real.
"Shut him up! We have a lot invested in this ride - SHUT HIM UP! Look at my furrows of worry! Look at my big bank account, and my family! This just HAS to be real!" - Bill Hicks

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« Reply #387 on: March 03, 2014, 08:10:18 PM »
For some yes and for some no.
I do not know the Higgs Bozon apart from the info I have read and the breaking news - for me it is an idea. For the people who have done the experiment it is not.

Are...are you saying truth is subjective?
If so...
Well...You are as bad as Bill O'reilly...

As for God is a theory -- no! it is not  ---  the Theists do not claim it is a theory. The title is Theists know and atheists don't. Theists become theists through a method. They teach the method. We know what theists claim - they write it in their books. The title is in respect to their claim and also in respect to us atheists who do not know. We have no method and no teacher.

Your title has already been disproven (Granted, it was never proven anyway).
Do you have anything new?

Bonus question: Are you a theist?
Rule 1: No pooftas. Rule 2: No maltreating the theists, IF, anyone is watching. Rule 3: No pooftas. Rule 4: I do not want to see anyone NOT drinking after light out. Rule 5: No pooftas. Rule 6: There is NO...rule 6.

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« Reply #388 on: March 03, 2014, 08:12:52 PM »
First lets get pass this hurdle of title proposal. Theists know and atheist don't. 
That evidence is simply a knowledge gained through reading observation and conclusion.
The nitty gritty is after - "the probablities of Gods existence" according to the Theists.

We can't get past that hurdle. It makes no sense to the rest of us.

I should rephrase that. It would make sense if there were actually a god. There isn't. So it doesn't.

Science had a reason for looking for the Higgs Boson. They had mathematic and scientific evidence that it existed. They could have been wrong. But at least they knew where to look. The same thing can't be said for a god. Because gods aren't anywhere.

What theists know is false. That isn't worth getting excited about.

Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Online jaimehlers

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Re: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« Reply #389 on: March 03, 2014, 08:32:36 PM »
Honestly, the easiest way to fix the title would be to say "theists think they know, and atheists don't think they do".  But I somehow don't think Jesuis would go for that.

Offline Jesuis

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Re: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« Reply #390 on: March 03, 2014, 08:41:46 PM »
Evidence which can be verified or falsified, tested, examined and observed.

For instance, we know that various animals exist like cats, dogs, deer, bears and elephants.  We can verify that they exist by observing them and examining them.  We can figure out what kind of food they like, how fast they can run, etc. etc.

A high level of consciousness proves nothing.  It only proves that anyone who claims to know "God" can also claim that they are better than other people and say "well if you don't know God, then you must not have a high level of consciousness".

For instance, I could imagine that a invisible purple dragon who grants wishes exists, then I can claim to know this invisible purple dragon.  If someone asks how do I know this invisible purple dragon, I simply respond "well you have to be a nice person and achieve a high level of consciousness".  If someone says that doesn't make sense.  I can simply respond "well you have to be nice like me, and you  need to have a high level of consciousness like me".
This is the first stage of us accepting that theists only teach a better more humane way of living through higher self awareness.  We are making progress on the nature of a theist. If the theist says to turn the cheek to the enemy and you see him not doing the same then you can reject him. He must be able to do what he says that others should do. Leadership by example. The student is the only one that can verify if he is not doing what he says they should.
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« Reply #391 on: March 03, 2014, 08:46:40 PM »
This is the first stage of us accepting that theists only teach a better more humane way of living through higher self awareness.  We are making progress on the nature of a theist. If the theist says to turn the cheek to the enemy and you see him not doing the same then you can reject him. He must be able to do what he says that others should do. Leadership by example. The student is the only one that can verify if he is not doing what he says they should.

Finally I agree. Every time the muslims stone a rape victim to death, I see their higher awareness and everything. And it makes me green with envy. Every time a christian child dies because the parents don't believe in going to a doctor, I am amazed at their insights and wisdom. Every time BibleStudent adequately addresses his complaints about evolution, I go into an awe-induced state of ecstasy.

So no complaints here. Give us more. I mean, repeat yourself a lot. Which is, of course, a redundant request.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline Jesuis

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Re: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« Reply #392 on: March 03, 2014, 08:47:28 PM »
Sigh, you completely missed the point.  EDIT:  The point is you wouldn't do something that would certainly kill you because you haven't experienced it.  Like, you wouldn't cut your head off.  You know, if you cut your head off you will die without needing to experience it first.  Why because you can come to rational conclusions which are true without experiencing them.

No, actually, we can figure out how people survive certain situations where they could have died.

I'm tired of your dogma and closed mind.
Does that mean you are willing to accept that Theists know God, that you are willing to follow a teacher who knows god, so that you can be taught the same as he knows -- or is your closed mindedness your reasoning for your dogma?
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline Jesuis

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Re: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« Reply #393 on: March 03, 2014, 08:50:03 PM »
So what is this, some schrodinger's cat woo now.

The Higgs boson is both real and not real.

"God" is both real and not real.

Everything is both real and not real.
If we are not even in the class of a theist how do we know?
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline Jesuis

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Re: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« Reply #394 on: March 03, 2014, 09:02:12 PM »
We can't get past that hurdle. It makes no sense to the rest of us.
It is purely intellectual.
You have been given the books
what they teach 
what they say they know and
what method they use. You are only asked to evaluate this evidence.

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I should rephrase that. It would make sense if there were actually a god. There isn't. So it doesn't.
Yes I know that is your knowing but respectively not theirs. That is why the title recognizes your state of knowing relative to theirs.

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Science had a reason for looking for the Higgs Boson. They had mathematic and scientific evidence that it existed. They could have been wrong. But at least they knew where to look.
That right.

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The same thing can't be said for a god. Because gods aren't anywhere.
That is not what the theists say. They look at life and its consciousness. They propose a science of knowing what life is through the highest state of consciousness already in us and they claim to know where it comes from. They have been repeating this method for quite a long time.

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What theists know is false. That isn't worth getting excited about.
And what do you call this if not ESP? How is it false?
You have not yet made that case but the claim continues. Cant you see this problem of repeating dogma?
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« Reply #395 on: March 03, 2014, 09:18:39 PM »
]What theists know is false. That isn't worth getting excited about.
And what do you call this if not ESP? How is it false?
You have not yet made that case but the claim continues. Cant you see this problem of repeating dogma?

I said earlier that if there is a god, then atheists are wrong. And if there isn't a god, then theists are wrong. I, of course, have made it clear that I think the latter.

But your premise assumes that both are right. And you make no allowance for one or the other being wrong. And at least one of the two has to be.

So when you say that a theist knows god and an atheist doesn't, one of those two things is false. Either a theist thinks he knows god, but doesn't because there isn't one, or an atheist doesn't know god and is wrong because there is one to know.

All you would have to do to end this part of the debate is change it to this: Theists think they know god, atheists don't think there is a god to know, hence they don't use or value the process theists use for "knowing" god."

But you keep insisting on having it both ways. Which is not possible.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline SevenPatch

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Re: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« Reply #396 on: March 03, 2014, 09:18:57 PM »
Sigh, you completely missed the point.  EDIT:  The point is you wouldn't do something that would certainly kill you because you haven't experienced it.  Like, you wouldn't cut your head off.  You know, if you cut your head off you will die without needing to experience it first.  Why because you can come to rational conclusions which are true without experiencing them.

No, actually, we can figure out how people survive certain situations where they could have died.

I'm tired of your dogma and closed mind.
Does that mean you are willing to accept that Theists know God, that you are willing to follow a teacher who knows god, so that you can be taught the same as he knows -- or is your closed mindedness your reasoning for your dogma?

I'll accept that a that a "Theist knows God" if it first can be shown with verifiable evidence that "God" exists and then shown with verifiable evidence that a "Theist" actually knows "God".

Are you willing to accept that lack of evidence, several paradoxes, contradictions and problems likely means "God" does not exist and that "Theists" do not know "God" -- or is your closed mindedness your reasoning for your dogma?
"Shut him up! We have a lot invested in this ride - SHUT HIM UP! Look at my furrows of worry! Look at my big bank account, and my family! This just HAS to be real!" - Bill Hicks

Offline Jesuis

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Re: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« Reply #397 on: March 03, 2014, 09:42:20 PM »
Finally I agree. Every time the muslims stone a rape victim to death, I see their higher awareness and everything.
Note this is not the definition of a theists - thank god we have finally stated the obvious - we have recognised what we like/hate. Now we can say what these people are doing relative to their teachers teaching?

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And it makes me green with envy. Every time a christian child dies because the parents don't believe in going to a doctor, I am amazed at their insights and wisdom.
Great now we are talking.
We have not lobed everyone into the pot of the violent few and we can address the teacher who taught them this thing that they do?

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Every time BibleStudent adequately addresses his complaints about evolution, I go into an awe-induced state of ecstasy.
They are being duped and I remind them that Jesus never said that.

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So no complaints here. Give us more. I mean, repeat yourself a lot. Which is, of course, a redundant request.
Well so long as we are addressing the real individual we can make them realise they are doing something wrong or negative relative to their teachers teaching.
But to call them theists -- how wrong that will be now that we understand the use of words. That was plain stupid.
Can't imagine the irony. Me saying stuff like the importance of words and their meanings.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2014, 09:47:14 PM by Jesuis »
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« Reply #398 on: March 03, 2014, 10:06:03 PM »
Note this is not the definition of a theists - thank god we have finally stated the obvious - we have recognised what we like/hate. Now we can say what these people are doing relative to their teachers teaching?

Your definitions do not allow for a religion that says to do hateful things to another human. Your assumption is that all religious commandments are morally benign.

You have no way of telling whether someone is an atheist or theist.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Online jaimehlers

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Re: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« Reply #399 on: March 03, 2014, 10:10:21 PM »
Jesuis, you need to get your head wrapped around something; to atheists, theists are those who believe in a god or gods - nothing more, nothing less.  That means that your attempts to say that theists are those who know a god or gods are doomed from the start, because you're effectively insisting that other people must accept that your terminology is the only valid terminology, and it isn't working.  In fact, it's failing miserably, because atheists have had to deal with this sort of thing many times, and it always ends up being a way for a theist to try to make their own god-beliefs seem special and unique, when in fact they're anything but.

You know how many theists I've personally talked to who tried to use semantics to prop up their beliefs?  Of them all, I can only think of one who doesn't do that, and that's OldChurchGuy.  You might want to spend some time reading his posts and seeing what he does differently, instead of just trying to repeat the same tiresome arguments which require us to accept your semantics in order for them to make sense.  Nobody who ever had anything worth saying needed to play with semantics to get other people to listen.

Offline stuffin

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Re: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« Reply #400 on: March 03, 2014, 10:17:51 PM »
I'M AN ATHEIST AND I KNOW GOD.

What I say is fact, prove me wrong.
When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.

Offline Jesuis

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Re: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« Reply #401 on: March 03, 2014, 10:18:28 PM »
I'll accept that a that a "Theist knows God" if it first can be shown with verifiable evidence that "God" exists and then shown with verifiable evidence that a "Theist" actually knows "God".
Unfortunately that is not how it works. You cannot learn about something that you fail to recognise exists. There would be no effort.

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Are you willing to accept that lack of evidence, several paradoxes, contradictions and problems likely means "God" does not exist and that "Theists" do not know "God" -- or is your closed mindedness your reasoning for your dogma?
I cannot accept that -- if I did it would be me sticking my fingers in my ears going na nanana nah to the years and years of historical evidence, the promotion of humanity by theists, and their ongoing mission in the world today. Although I am an atheist who does not know God I am not a stupid human being.

And I am sure if you were to torture a present day theist or nailed him to a cross he won't give up what he knows in favour of your beliefs. He would stick with his authority even if you call it a lie. Its been done in the past and not only once.

But if you were willing to be nailed and tortured for your truth that there is no God - I might think you have something worth considering - - you would need to appeal to my highest most humane nature though through your dogmatic determination - and even if you be tortured nailed beaten and whipped it carries no weight unless others can back you up that what you say is true. What authority would you use to make your case? Atheism has no authority there is no love taught in it, no humanity. No teacher.
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline Jesuis

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Re: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« Reply #402 on: March 03, 2014, 10:25:32 PM »

Your definitions do not allow for a religion that says to do hateful things to another human. Your assumption is that all religious commandments are morally benign.

You have no way of telling whether someone is an atheist or theist.
My definition/title only addresses theists who know and atheists who don't. I have steered clear of religion and the people in them.

My definition only allows people who are aware of the truth in themselves. You either know or you do not.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2014, 10:28:02 PM by Jesuis »
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline Jesuis

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Re: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« Reply #403 on: March 03, 2014, 10:35:22 PM »
Jesuis, you need to get your head wrapped around something; to atheists, theists are those who believe in a god or gods - nothing more, nothing less. 
The problem with that is -- which God? who's authority. It has no purpose no human agenda no advancement.

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That means that your attempts to say that theists are those who know a god or gods are doomed from the start, because you're effectively insisting that other people must accept that your terminology is the only valid terminology, and it isn't working. 
Theists have an agenda.

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In fact, it's failing miserably, because atheists have had to deal with this sort of thing many times, and it always ends up being a way for a theist to try to make their own god-beliefs seem special and unique, when in fact they're anything but.
I am offering you a way forward. The more humane more consciously aware path up for debate and with an agenda for more consciousness and awareness in everyone.

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You know how many theists I've personally talked to who tried to use semantics to prop up their beliefs?  Of them all, I can only think of one who doesn't do that, and that's OldChurchGuy.  You might want to spend some time reading his posts and seeing what he does differently, instead of just trying to repeat the same tiresome arguments which require us to accept your semantics in order for them to make sense.  Nobody who ever had anything worth saying needed to play with semantics to get other people to listen.
There is a problem with moving forward in your believe system that you have taken -- you cannot prove a negative. This problem does not allow you the opportunity to consider a God much more to advance you humane conscious awareness any further. You are locked in. Me being an atheist through nt knowing is not locked in. My mind is open.
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« Reply #404 on: March 03, 2014, 10:49:12 PM »
But if you were willing to be nailed and tortured for your truth that there is no God - I might think you have something worth considering - - you would need to appeal to my highest most humane nature though through your dogmatic determination - and even if you be tortured nailed beaten and whipped it carries no weight unless others can back you up that what you say is true. What authority would you use to make your case? Atheism has no authority there is no love taught in it, no humanity. No teacher.

Atheism isn't a philosophy. It is a lack of one. Each of us atheists finds something else besides religion to guide our actions and standards. As with believers, we have mixed results. But atheism, which is simply a lack of belief, contains no information to guide anyone to do anything. Other than make worshipping a god seem kind of worthless.

Buddhists are usually atheists. Yet they delve deep into the self, etc. and they value such endeavors. I see their accomplishments as one of many that a human, unencumbered by the lies of religion, can accomplish. After choosing to ignore unprovable and useless falsehoods about various gods, atheists can then pursue whatever level of truth they want.

I've tried to keep it casual. I've got better things to do than get all introspective on myself. I prefer doing things with and for others over imagining that the stuff my brain is more valuable than the stuff outside of it. Life is too short to make up stuff about how important it is.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Online jaimehlers

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Re: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« Reply #405 on: March 03, 2014, 11:41:04 PM »
The problem with that is -- which God? who's authority. It has no purpose no human agenda no advancement.
Frankly, I don't think atheists care, cause they don't think any gods exist.  And why would a god have a human agenda, anyway?  It's like ants presuming that humans have an ant agenda.

Quote from: jaimehlers
That means that your attempts to say that theists are those who know a god or gods are doomed from the start, because you're effectively insisting that other people must accept that your terminology is the only valid terminology, and it isn't working.
Quote from: Jesuis
Theists have an agenda.
Doesn't matter.  If your agenda requires that people accept your terminology, it's not going to fly unless people do accept it, and you aren't going to find many takers here.

Quote from: Jesuis
I am offering you a way forward. The more humane more consciously aware path up for debate and with an agenda for more consciousness and awareness in everyone.
And just what makes you think that we need your "way forward"?  While I'm up for people being more humane, I don't see any reason anyone should have to accept your "theists know god" argument to become more humane.

Quote from: Jesuis
There is a problem with moving forward in your believe system that you have taken -- you cannot prove a negative. This problem does not allow you the opportunity to consider a God much more to advance you humane conscious awareness any further. You are locked in. Me being an atheist through nt knowing is not locked in. My mind is open.
Oh, for crying out loud.  This again?  Look, the point of atheism is not to disprove the existence of gods, it's to show that you don't need to have belief in gods that may or may not exist.  And to be blunt, your mind is not nearly as open as you think it is - you keep insisting that theists know 'god', but you say this not actually being one (by your own definition), so you're speaking from ignorance.  You're simply assuming that these 'theists' of yours actually know god.  Worse than that, you're playing the "true theist" card, namely, that only true theists know 'god' and everyone else is an 'atheist'.  That's just a fancy kind of special pleading, frankly, and it's half, if not more, of the reason your argument keeps failing.  Plus, it's really tiresome to keep hearing the same bad argument over and over again.