Author Topic: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.  (Read 9075 times)

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Offline Add Homonym

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Re: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« Reply #290 on: February 27, 2014, 09:28:48 PM »
The push back is based on nonsense.

It's a rather emphatic statement considering you are taking the word of others that they have experienced God. You should at least concede that the pushback MAY or may not be nonsense. And that you are presuming there is a path to God, because some people have said so.

PART 1

Some people take the "entheogen" DMT, and claim that they have met God, through having their minds blown apart by this substance which is common in acacias. Now, even if I accept that the experiences that they have are REAL, then most of them come back with stories about how they met alien DEMONs. It's normal to meet demons and spirits, when taking DMT. The pshychonauts also recognize that these demons MAY be coming from inside themselves, and just be expressions of fears and needs.

We have a number of permutations to work through already.
demons = human psyche/brain
demons = may be real or unreal depending on trip depth
demons = are mostly real aliens who wait and prey on psychonauts

1) Consider the case where the demons are real. If demons can SHOW you all these altered alien worlds, then demons can also show you God, or an imitation God, depending on what humour they are in. So, even if we take the statements of psychonauts as being true, we still don't know if what they experience is EVER real in any way, because there is too much malevolence in what they appear to encounter. Some DMT trips contain experiences which may be completely bogus, but seem more real than this reality. One guy saw the second coming of Christ, and went through this saga, and faced judgement, and could actually feel hell coming.

2) The next problem is that psychonauts also seem to encounter alien worlds that indicate they are experiencing combinations of their imagination AND alternate universes. If you are experiencing alternate universes, then how is what they meet relevant to this one at all?

3) Do they come back sane? If the human mind can create the experience of sugar, then it must have something in it, that can make us believe ANYTHING. No matter how compelling the experiences are, there is no guarantee that any of it was really experienced. This in part explains why psychonauts who claim they have been away for 1000 years, and have experienced alien worlds and technology have very little so say about it, besides hand-waving. They can no more explain what they experienced, than they can explain the taste of sugar, but they believe they experienced it, with the same certainty that they know the fictitious taste of sugar. I would like to see one psychonaut come back with a solution to some physics problem. One guy said that while on his trip, he experienced the whole of mathematics. Surely he could have come back with Fermat's Last Theorem?

I have had dreams, where I understood quite insane things. They all seemed plausible while I was asleep, but I saw the stupidity of it when I woke up.

PART 2

People who indulge in chanting and mental techniques to meet things on the other side, are no more above people who take DMT, which is considered to be a short-cut, by some. If you psyche yourself up, then at what point, are you just encountering your own imagination? People who are purported to have experienced things on the other side, never seem to be able to substantiate any of it. This is said to be some divine plan, but it makes it no different from it being in their imagination.

Humans are VERY resistant to the idea that they can hallucinate readily. If you tell someone that they hallucinated, you will get emphatic responses, like "Are you saying I'm insane?" and "don't be ridiculous, I know what I saw". They have a strange notion that if they hallucinated something, then they are totally off their rocker. They can't seem to understand that many humans occupy a state where they blend reality with dreams, and are not insane. Stage hypnotists readily prove that many people can enter these delusional states with a bit of a chat. Most people can't, but some people can.

Humans seem unable to understand that their imagination is always willing to play tricks on them. Even if you didn't believe that hypnosis or these spontaneous hallucinations were real, you have to face the fact that we all admit that we do it 8 times a night. We spend half the night being batshit insane. It's proof that the human mind has the capability to do it. Some people walk around and raid the fridge, while asleep, and believe that they are managing a restaurant as they do it.

PART 3

The people whom you cite as experiencing God, may have imagined it, or may be fictitious characters. Harold Klemp is regarded, by people who have escaped the Eck delusion, as corrupt and a charlatan, and he is one of the better Eck masters.
http://webspace.webring.com/people/de/eckcult/chapters/tmsm10.html

Your scholarship is not rigorous.

Furthermore, you don't engage with the topic as if you can understand areas where you may be wrong, and offer solutions to the problem.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2014, 09:35:40 PM by Add Homonym »
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Offline Jesuis

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Re: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« Reply #291 on: February 27, 2014, 11:25:42 PM »
As for Sugar how do we know it is sweet - we know because we have experienced it via our senses.
How do we know water is wet, or Sunshine is warn, or beauty is in a sunset.
We may read these things but we do not know of it. When we experience it than we know it.

I'll share some points with you to consider.
These were raised in my mind while reading web pages on the topic of epistemology.

1. Everything that is known external to the body is known ultimately in the mind. 
2. Our minds experience the world through our five senses. Nothing external is really experienced unless it is experienced by mind.
3. Our minds projects these observed objects via frequency of light and sound, converts signals of sight, hearing, taste, touch, into bio chemical electrical neuron signals which culminate in the brain from the external into the body mechanism and is projected into a space time mind medium, containing everything we have observed externally and we call this our experience.
4. To talk of an object being outside the body is to talk about it being outside a thought, ie outside a mental thing, outside the mind - which is impossible.
5.  Everything we observe is mind. And therefore in common parlance say we know these things that are in mind.

That brings us to states of mind
1. Altering our sense perception alters our observable reality in mind. Some call this illusion or hallucination or insane even mysterious derangement's of mystics are of mind.
2. Drugs and Alcohol damage the physical structure of the true nature of consciousness and of our awareness making the mind less and less aware of the source of its true nature and more and more lost in the illusion of matter.
3. At birth it is said by doctors that we are more conscious than we are at old age. Our mind keeps our attention within a degrading frequency limitation for some reason of its own nature.   
4. The process whereby we become conscious of an illusion cannot be different than the way we become conscious of any ordinary object in time space.
5. The act of awareness - of the illusion and the reality are indeed the same, even though one is false and the other accurate.

What then is the truth of experience.
1. Recently discovered - children in classrooms were sending and receiving texts at a sound frequency tone on their mobiles that their teachers were unable to hear. Thus created a bit of a stir for the teachers.
2. The most innocent amongst are the new born who have a frequency receptive ability of light and sound above that of grown ups and their learning skills capability is far greater than any of us. They can see and hear things we cant.
3. What they know and are aware of in their mind consciousness we are not - thus we do not help them with their awareness but we delude them into the world around us.
4. We mistakenly call that growing up, and force that nature on the innocent out of them.
5. It is this innocent nature of someone who did not lose its capability to their environment that remained uncorrupted with time and age thus leading them to speak of the spiritual regions within.  God and angels, are in the mind and are as real as the external world.

"Blessed are the pure at heart for they shall see God. "

So where does the error really occur?
1. Our minds have become engrossed in matter and sense perception. It has lost all its frequencies of spiritual awareness with time.
2. Conscious awareness of the physical world with no way to reconnect with the conscious spiritual world and no teacher we have degraded our awareness with time through negative (in that respect of knowing the spirit) indulgences.
3. If an illusion is a false sensory impression it is still an impression made on mind.
4. It cannot be in the object it can only be in the mind for its there where the mistake of interpretation occurs.
5. The Genius is the one who can use the state of mind and its intellectual capabilities to solve complex problems.

According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline Jesuis

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Re: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« Reply #292 on: February 27, 2014, 11:32:40 PM »

Those who have keep saying it exists. To know it exists requires a method of the self.
Would you care to explain that? Are you suggesting that you should sit and "think of something"?

If so, I will tell you that I am afraid that it is impossible to sit in a darkened room with no real information on a subject and yet come to a sound conclusion. All superstition is based upon an imagined, yet undetectable, force that emanates from an unseen being at an indeterminate distance from the observer and whose actions end up having a completely natural explanation.
It is a long process. I am working on it.
I have decided to start where I think everyone can get to grips with topic of the self.
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline Jesuis

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Re: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« Reply #293 on: February 28, 2014, 01:46:48 AM »
PART 3

The people whom you cite as experiencing God, may have imagined it, or may be fictitious characters. Harold Klemp is regarded, by people who have escaped the Eck delusion, as corrupt and a charlatan, and he is one of the better Eck masters.

Your scholarship is not rigorous.

Furthermore, you don't engage with the topic as if you can understand areas where you may be wrong, and offer solutions to the problem.

Thanks!

And your claim to my rigorousness is unfounded. I am flexible not rigid. Not that humility it is worth much on here. According to Julian Johnson drugs cannot be taken in the pursuit of true spiritual knowledge. The pursuit of a pure life is a prerequisite for true enlightenment where Spiritual Consciousness is practiced and observed in real life.

The ancient Greeks coined the phrase "Man know Thyself for a reason". Atheism was not that reason.

Your video on Paul Twitchell and the false Eck masters was exposed but it was by the disciples of theists -- not atheists. ( at least give me some credit for being an observant atheist).

Suggesting Drugs that distort the mind, tells me you have not researched the method of the Masters yet.

I am surprise Ching hai has outwitted your keen search thus far. Nothing on her?

When you're doing your research and you come across a crooked disciple you do not ignore his character - A liar is a liar after all. I applaud that.

Out of 12 there is only 1 and he might not go back to the village he might go somewhere else.

The book The Tigers Fang is a testament to his experience and some of it is plagiarized from another disciple.
But lets face facts -- no one has claimed that the contents was all wrong.

As for the effort on the DMT molecule. Quite interesting drug. Lets hope people are not duped into more and more states of unconsciousness, by politics and corruption. We already know people consume so much alcohol it is impossible for them to know anything of the true spirit world but much about hallucinations.
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« Reply #294 on: February 28, 2014, 02:15:52 AM »
As for Sugar how do we know it is sweet - we know because we have experienced it via our senses.
How do we know water is wet, or Sunshine is warn, or beauty is in a sunset.
We may read these things but we do not know of it. When we experience it than we know it.

I'll share some points with you to consider.
These were raised in my mind while reading web pages on the topic of epistemology.

1. Everything that is known external to the body is known ultimately in the mind. 
2. Our minds experience the world through our five senses. Nothing external is really experienced unless it is experienced by mind.
3. Our minds projects these observed objects via frequency of light and sound, converts signals of sight, hearing, taste, touch, into bio chemical electrical neuron signals which culminate in the brain from the external into the body mechanism and is projected into a space time mind medium, containing everything we have observed externally and we call this our experience.
4. To talk of an object being outside the body is to talk about it being outside a thought, ie outside a mental thing, outside the mind - which is impossible.
5.  Everything we observe is mind. And therefore in common parlance say we know these things that are in mind.

That brings us to states of mind
1. Altering our sense perception alters our observable reality in mind. Some call this illusion or hallucination or insane even mysterious derangement's of mystics are of mind.
2. Drugs and Alcohol damage the physical structure of the true nature of consciousness and of our awareness making the mind less and less aware of the source of its true nature and more and more lost in the illusion of matter.
3. At birth it is said by doctors that we are more conscious than we are at old age. Our mind keeps our attention within a degrading frequency limitation for some reason of its own nature.   
4. The process whereby we become conscious of an illusion cannot be different than the way we become conscious of any ordinary object in time space.
5. The act of awareness - of the illusion and the reality are indeed the same, even though one is false and the other accurate.

What then is the truth of experience.
1. Recently discovered - children in classrooms were sending and receiving texts at a sound frequency tone on their mobiles that their teachers were unable to hear. Thus created a bit of a stir for the teachers.
2. The most innocent amongst are the new born who have a frequency receptive ability of light and sound above that of grown ups and their learning skills capability is far greater than any of us. They can see and hear things we cant.
3. What they know and are aware of in their mind consciousness we are not - thus we do not help them with their awareness but we delude them into the world around us.
4. We mistakenly call that growing up, and force that nature on the innocent out of them.
5. It is this innocent nature of someone who did not lose its capability to their environment that remained uncorrupted with time and age thus leading them to speak of the spiritual regions within.  God and angels, are in the mind and are as real as the external world.

"Blessed are the pure at heart for they shall see God. "

So where does the error really occur?
1. Our minds have become engrossed in matter and sense perception. It has lost all its frequencies of spiritual awareness with time.
2. Conscious awareness of the physical world with no way to reconnect with the conscious spiritual world and no teacher we have degraded our awareness with time through negative (in that respect of knowing the spirit) indulgences.
3. If an illusion is a false sensory impression it is still an impression made on mind.
4. It cannot be in the object it can only be in the mind for its there where the mistake of interpretation occurs.
5. The Genius is the one who can use the state of mind and its intellectual capabilities to solve complex problems.

We are all hoping that someday you will be able to swim out of the shallow end of the pool, Jesuis. In the meantime, we have to put up with stuff like this.

I know that you think that since you used words like "parlance" and stuff, that you went pretty darned deep into the subject you were making up, but the only talent you exerted is your ability to over-generalize and simplify. The latter is of course understandable, because otherwise you wouldn't, you know, understand it.

What part of the mind are you talking about. How much of your mind involves thoughts and shit? And how much is too busy doing other things to care? Here you are presenting a silly set of over-simpifications, spiced with omissions and errors and imagined relevance. You are big on "known" and "mind", "experience" and observation". Yet you barely know the words, yet alone their relevance to the "thoughts" you've presented here.

In your first numbered point,you said:

Quote
1. Everything that is known external to the body is known ultimately in the mind.

When you say that, you seem to be assigning accuracy to the term "known". You seem to be assuming precision and to be assigning sensory data and interpretation a 1:1 ratio. You are ignoring errors in perception, misinterpretations, missed cues, the fact that the brain fills in most of what we "see" in our peripheral vision, all the other things our brain is doing in the meantime, and all the stuff our body does without needing the brain. You are ignoring the second brain we have in our stomach that is responsible for our feeling hungry and "butterflies". You seem unaware that most of what we do is unconscious, and of our limited perception of reality. Which further distorts what we think we are observing/experiencing because we don't know how much we are ignoring.

And you are speaking in specifics as you over-generalize. Which is actually impressive. But the limits of which you speak are not universal. Yes, kids in a classroom did communicate at a frequency their teach couldn't hear. But I can detect frequencies far beyond those known to the kids. I've got an oscilloscope. Which means that my "ignorance", which stems from growing older and less able to hear, is offset by even better sensory sources. So I can detect far more than those kids. If their superpower and youth is impressive, why isn't my extended sensory apparatus, combined with a higher degree of education, far more impressive than the talents of a bunch of second graders?

Which means that my mind, whose experiences are limited by what I can sense, can recognize its limits and extend the natural with mind-concocted tools, Which must mean that the mind is smarter than it looks, otherwise it would just be too busy attending to those five senses that it wouldn't have time to come up with other stuff. And you are over simplifying our senses as well. The five-senses thingy (sight, hearing, touch, smell and taste) are incomplete. Do you know about your proprioception; your brains ability to know where your arms and legs are. Exactly where they are? The sense that deteriorates (like sight) as one ages, and which explains why old people fall down a lot. Their bodies lose track of where their legs are.

Native peoples, unencumbered by civilization, have a natural sense of direction, and always know which way is which. And most people have an uncanny sense of time. One that is far more accurate than researchers would have predicted.

We may have over 20 senses. Itching, for instance, uses a completely different set of nerves than any other touch-based sensory system. Is that yet another sense, or not?

So there is all this stuff going on in our heads and our bodies, and you want to simplify it all and then assign excess value to "spiritual awareness". Which is, for the most part, just a way for an inadequately aware brain to fill in the blanks to its own satisfaction.

I don't know if you are old enough to drive, but if you are, you probably have had the experience of driving in an unfamiliar area and being surprised that you actually stopped your car at a stop sign that you didn't consciously know was there. That is the part of our brain that is doing most of the work, and we don't know diddly about it. Science can't get to it (though they can measure it and stuff), meditators can't directly access it, yet it does most of the work. Our conscious selves are minimally important. About all that part of us does is assign a sense of self importance and give that distortion top priority. (A subject worthy of discussion, but above your grade level.)

The brain in incredibly complex. When combined with our bodies, it gets a couple billion times more complex. When further combined with the things happening on the cellular level, we get a few trillion times more complex. Then toss in our external environment and all the stuff we have to put up with there, and poof, we are too complex to exist. The only reason we survive is that our simple heads refuse to delve in to things too deeply. Which makes the whole thing tolerable.

I could go through the rest of your post in equal detail, but I'm pretty sure I've bored the pants off of everyone (except Nam, who probably doesn't wear his while at the computer  ;D). So I'll stop.

There are too many unknowns in our minds/brains to allow for a meaningful conversation among anonymous strangers on the Internet. Expecially when at least one participant has an exceedingly naïve view of the subject matter. And is too impressed with the imaginary field of spirituality.

You should change the subject.

« Last Edit: February 28, 2014, 02:17:36 AM by ParkingPlaces »
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Offline bertatberts

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Re: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« Reply #295 on: February 28, 2014, 04:19:31 AM »
Or the thread should be closed, it's going nowhere.
We theists have no evidence for our beliefs. So no amount of rational evidence will dissuade us from those beliefs. - JCisall

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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« Reply #296 on: February 28, 2014, 06:36:09 AM »
But can you understand that an AWFUL lot of the resistance to what you are saying - and the refusal to accept your claim that you are an atheist - lies exactly there?  Your "factual statement" that "theists KNOW god" (through experience) seems to be entirely accepting of the notion that there is, in fact, a god to know (same as there is, in fact, sugar to taste).

You claim to be atheist, but make a statement that you claim is fact, that there is a god that can be experienced.

Take a step back and honestly answer: can you understand why you are getting so much pushback on this subject?
The push back is based on nonsense.

That wasn't what I asked.  I asked if you could recognise that your choice of language might be as issue.  You don't even seem to be prepared to conuntenance the prospect.  For someone with aspirations to being a teacher, you don't seem to be showing much aptitude.

You cannot reject sugar exists because you have not tasted it. People are saying it exists. Your logic is not sound.
Following your logic you will never accept sugar exists - it cannot exists because you have never seen it or tasted.
Those who have keep saying it exists. To know it exists requires a method of the self.

Then to follow YOUR logic through......

We cannot say fairies do not exist.  Some people have experienced them, so we cannot say they do not.
We cannot say alien abductions do not happen, for the same reason.
We cannot say that demons do not exist, ditto.
We cannot say that scientologists are wrong.
Nor anyone who claims to have seen a ghost, or a vampire.

We weren't there, we didn't experience it, so we cannot deny it, is the thrust of your argument.  And - to a point - I agree.

But the point at which I STOP agreeing is the point where I say to the person who experiences god, or who has sugar: "okay, where is this sugar so I can taste for myself?"  And it turns out that all they proffer me is an empty spoon.  Same thing happens when I say "okay - how do I experience this god of which you speak?"  I am repeatedly given excuses as to why I cannot experience him, often mere moments after being told how this god deeply desires someone come to him and have a relationship with him.

In short, the "knowledge" that these people have - of god, of sugar - has meaning only if it can be shared.

You like sugar, I know.  Imagine you have tasted it, and I have not.  And then, suddenly and forever, all sugar vanishes from the world so there is never again a chance for me to experience it.  Is your "knowledge" of sugar useful?  Does it have any meaning?

Final question, with regard to your alleged atheism.  I listed a whole string of things up there that we likewise cannot (apparently) discount without experiencing.  Do you refuse to challenge any or all of those on the same basis that you refuse to challenge god?  If not - then again I ask you, what is the difference?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« Reply #297 on: February 28, 2014, 08:04:40 AM »
According to Julian Johnson drugs cannot be taken in the pursuit of true spiritual knowledge. The pursuit of a pure life is a prerequisite for true enlightenment where Spiritual Consciousness is practiced and observed in real life.

Julian may have only known about LSD. The Indian he got his knowledge from, didn't know about the South American Ayahuasca culture. They use the smaller amounts of DMT in "The Vine" + MAO inhibitors to get into that state for healing as well as seeing through the eyes of "spirits". There is a recent doco on Australian ABC about how Christian theologians were given the stuff and rated it "highly significant". (or something like that)

Here is the page
http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/encounter/mind-at-large/4570186

Quote
The ancient Greeks coined the phrase "Man know Thyself for a reason". Atheism was not that reason.

The ancient Greeks came up with Hades, and the River Styx, and a whole lot of other crap, that mired science for millennia.

Quote
Suggesting Drugs that distort the mind, tells me you have not researched the method of the Masters yet.

You may have missed the point of my last post. There may or not be equivalence between drugs and techniques. The techniques of masters may achieve nothing.

Quote
I am surprise Ching hai has outwitted your keen search thus far. Nothing on her?

What are you suggesting? That I should or should not? I'm not sure if you respect her or not. She seems like a Kim Kardashian. Wikipedia has a few examples of frauds, manipulation, environmental damage, grandiose behaviour. She's an easy target. Master of self promotion.

Supposing she WAS a "master". What is it a master of? Can she levitate, heal, pick lotto numbers, or just create a feel-good light in the imaginative?

Quote
When you're doing your research and you come across a crooked disciple you do not ignore his character - A liar is a liar after all. I applaud that.

Yes, but you should be doing the research, not I.

Quote
The book The Tigers Fang is a testament to his experience and some of it is plagiarized from another disciple.
But lets face facts -- no one has claimed that the contents was all wrong.

The bible has accuracies in it, too. Twitchell's wife said he was a fraud. He studied with L Ron H. How would anybody know if what is in the book is true or false? You can't verify any technique, as to whether it's your imagination or not. If you want to remote view this bit of paper I've just stuck on my wall and read it, go for it  :)

Quote
it is impossible for them to know anything of the true spirit world but much about hallucinations.

How do we tell the difference? If I psyche myself up during an Eck meditation, and I hear some music, I would righteously claim I just entered the Eck consciousness, or I may have just dreamed it. I wonder if there is much in Julian's book about how to distinguish an imagined experience from  a real one.

I know that you can put meditation masters into PET and mag resonance devices, and find they are doing real things. But there is a small group of people who have learned from one woman, how to psyche themselves into whole body orgasms, and the Mag Res seems to confirm it's really happening. (Unless the sex doco was lying to me. [Strange Sex s01e02] Mind you there is this whole series by Stan Lee, called Superhumans, which is terribly interesting, even if 30% of it is true.


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Re: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« Reply #298 on: February 28, 2014, 08:45:48 AM »
As for Sugar how do we know it is sweet - we know because we have experienced it via our senses.
How do we know water is wet, or Sunshine is warn, or beauty is in a sunset.
We may read these things but we do not know of it. When we experience it than we know it.
I knew it! Earlier in this thread, I predicted that you would come up with the utter garbage of "How do we know anything?" Everything might be an illusion: it's all in the mind.

Quote
I'll share some points with you to consider.
I advise members to stop reading at this point. Failure to do so will deprive you of well over 5 minutes of your life that you will never get back.

Quote
3. Our minds projects these observed objects via frequency of light and sound, converts signals of sight, hearing, taste, touch, into bio chemical electrical neuron signals which culminate in the brain from the external into the body mechanism and is projected into a space time mind medium, containing everything we have observed externally and we call this our experience.
4. To talk of an object being outside the body is to talk about it being outside a thought, ie outside a mental thing, outside the mind - which is impossible.
5.  Everything we observe is mind. And therefore in common parlance say we know these things that are in mind.
It may be "common parlance" where you live - it isn't where I live.

Look, all you need to know is that what we experience is, to us, reality. That is how it is defined. What we make of that reality is our perception of reality but, we all perceive much the same thing: it works for us and works for everyone else and all sensible creatures. And that is how it is and has always been.


Quote
What then is the truth of experience.
[various examples of children hearing higher frequencies deleted as this has been known for a long time and is irrelevant.]
5. It is this innocent nature of someone who did not lose its capability to their environment that remained uncorrupted with time and age thus leading them to speak of the spiritual regions within.  God and angels, are in the mind and are as real as the external world.
This is wrong because the conclusion is a non-sequitur. It would only be valid if "spiritual things spoke in very high frequencies - which they don't.

Quote
So where does the error really occur?
There is no "error."

Jesuis,
You have been deceived by your own irrational conclusions. This comes via not thinking critically. You have decided to believe in a discredited theory and then fit all the circumstances to that theory, instead of questioning it.

The alternative is that you have stated the blindingly obvious but disguised it by misuse of words.

You need to abandon your ideas. I know you have invested a lot in them. I know that they seem to make sense to you just at the moment, but seriously, you need to break any connection between the senses and mystic, invisible deities because all that you are saying is:

"I don't understand what "thought" is, therefore I'm going to pull a theory out of my arse and say that is the answer."
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline SevenPatch

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Re: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« Reply #299 on: February 28, 2014, 10:21:34 AM »
As for Sugar how do we know it is sweet - we know because we have experienced it via our senses.
How do we know water is wet, or Sunshine is warn, or beauty is in a sunset.
We may read these things but we do not know of it. When we experience it than we know it.
I knew it! Earlier in this thread, I predicted that you would come up with the utter garbage of "How do we know anything?" Everything might be an illusion: it's all in the mind.

In my short time on these forums, reading various arguments from some theists, this seems to be the last refuge for anyone who believes in something that behaves exactly as if it doesn't exist.

I wonder if there is some nihilistic tendency behind this line of thinking, basically a person using this argument either consciously or subconsciously would rather reality not exist than there to be no god watching over them.

« Last Edit: February 28, 2014, 10:28:28 AM by SevenPatch »
"Shut him up! We have a lot invested in this ride - SHUT HIM UP! Look at my furrows of worry! Look at my big bank account, and my family! This just HAS to be real!" - Bill Hicks

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« Reply #300 on: February 28, 2014, 11:09:45 AM »
As for Sugar how do we know it is sweet - we know because we have experienced it via our senses.
How do we know water is wet, or Sunshine is warn, or beauty is in a sunset.
We may read these things but we do not know of it. When we experience it than we know it.
I knew it! Earlier in this thread, I predicted that you would come up with the utter garbage of "How do we know anything?" Everything might be an illusion: it's all in the mind.

In my short time on these forums, reading various arguments from some theists, this seems to be the last refuge for anyone who believes in something that behaves exactly as if it doesn't exist.

I wonder if there is some nihilistic tendency behind this line of thinking, basically a person using this argument either consciously or subconsciously would rather reality not exist than there to be no god watching over them.

You may be right. And it would be a public service under some circumstances, but some of these folks seem to want to take others with them as they go down in flames. While they're still stupid, they want us to become the same. It is easy to avoid, but is, at times, maddening.

I just re-read my post from last night and I see that my mind was wandering through so many of Jesuis' wrongs that I was unable to concoct any coherence in response. I should have just gone to bed.
Jesus, the cracker flavored treat!

Offline SevenPatch

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Re: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« Reply #301 on: February 28, 2014, 04:17:38 PM »
In my short time on these forums, reading various arguments from some theists, this seems to be the last refuge for anyone who believes in something that behaves exactly as if it doesn't exist.

I wonder if there is some nihilistic tendency behind this line of thinking, basically a person using this argument either consciously or subconsciously would rather reality not exist than there to be no god watching over them.

You may be right. And it would be a public service under some circumstances, but some of these folks seem to want to take others with them as they go down in flames. While they're still stupid, they want us to become the same. It is easy to avoid, but is, at times, maddening.

I just re-read my post from last night and I see that my mind was wandering through so many of Jesuis' wrongs that I was unable to concoct any coherence in response. I should have just gone to bed.

I was thinking about the sugar analogy that Jesuis used, and it says a lot about him actually.  I think he is trying to make sense of the fact that so many people on the planet believe in a god currently and throughout history.

For him, so many people believing in a god is the equivalent of everyone on earth experiencing sugar.

I was looking at the wikipedia page for sugar and apparently in 2011, the world produced 168 million tons of sugar.  So that is 168 million tons of evidence that sugar exists.  Can you imagine if we had 168 million tons of evidence that a god exists?  Hehe  :)
"Shut him up! We have a lot invested in this ride - SHUT HIM UP! Look at my furrows of worry! Look at my big bank account, and my family! This just HAS to be real!" - Bill Hicks

Offline Jesuis

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Re: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« Reply #302 on: March 01, 2014, 03:53:24 AM »
That wasn't what I asked.  I asked if you could recognise that your choice of language might be as issue.  You don't even seem to be prepared to conuntenance the prospect.  For someone with aspirations to being a teacher, you don't seem to be showing much aptitude.
My choice of words are perfect for progression. Historically accurate. and only requires research by those who want to do the research.
No aspirations for teaching - just seeking the truth rather than being bogged down and stagnant.

You cannot reject sugar exists because you have not tasted it. People are saying it exists. Your logic is not sound.
Following your logic you will never accept sugar exists - it cannot exists because you have never seen it or tasted.
Those who have keep saying it exists. To know it exists requires a method of the self.

Quote
Then to follow YOUR logic through......

We cannot say fairies do not exist.  Some people have experienced them, so we cannot say they do not.
We cannot say alien abductions do not happen, for the same reason.
We cannot say that demons do not exist, ditto.
We cannot say that scientologists are wrong.
Nor anyone who claims to have seen a ghost, or a vampire.
Where is the Teacher?? Teaching you to know God? You are missing the point.

Quote
We weren't there, we didn't experience it, so we cannot deny it, is the thrust of your argument.  And - to a point - I agree.

But the point at which I STOP agreeing is the point where I say to the person who experiences god, or who has sugar: "okay, where is this sugar so I can taste for myself?"  And it turns out that all they proffer me is an empty spoon.  Same thing happens when I say "okay - how do I experience this god of which you speak?"  I am repeatedly given excuses as to why I cannot experience him, often mere moments after being told how this god deeply desires someone come to him and have a relationship with him.
It is the disciple that desires the knowledge from the master not the other way round. And the excuses should be self evident. In other words you have a method. You need to be aware of that method in a scientific way. You need to understand what is required and what you need to do to ensure your progress. It is your awareness that you are progressing on a daily basis is what enures the experiment concludes its mission.


Quote
In short, the "knowledge" that these people have - of god, of sugar - has meaning only if it can be shared.
That's right. God is in no hurry, some disciples are. He's waiting on all who wants to know and wants to follow the method. If you keep shouting sugar sugar sugar your mouth does not suddenly become sweet.


Quote
You like sugar, I know.  Imagine you have tasted it, and I have not.  And then, suddenly and forever, all sugar vanishes from the world so there is never again a chance for me to experience it.  Is your "knowledge" of sugar useful?  Does it have any meaning?
That would be a problem - but it is not the case - today Sugar and Theists still exist. Not wanting to taste it or fooling yourself that it does not exist makes no sense to the rational intelligent human being.

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Final question, with regard to your alleged atheism.  I listed a whole string of things up there that we likewise cannot (apparently) discount without experiencing.  Do you refuse to challenge any or all of those on the same basis that you refuse to challenge god?  If not - then again I ask you, what is the difference?
A teacher shares his knowledge with his student. I was reading the life of Plotinus a Greek Philosopher and his determination to find the right teacher. He had a determination of Genius before finding Ammonius Saccas.

So we cannot in a rational world deny the evidence and determination of others. We cannot reject that the evidence of Higgs Bozon because we did not experience it. We accept these things at a knowledge level.
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

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Re: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« Reply #303 on: March 01, 2014, 04:03:26 AM »
Where is the Teacher?? Teaching you to know God? You are missing the point.

The Teacher is here. I am He. Astreja is She. We have taught you of Our godness. You're the one who ignored Us in a futile attempt to cling to your false belief that you're an atheist.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline bertatberts

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Re: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« Reply #304 on: March 01, 2014, 05:32:06 AM »
Quote
Then to follow YOUR logic through......

We cannot say fairies do not exist.  Some people have experienced them, so we cannot say they do not.
We cannot say alien abductions do not happen, for the same reason.
We cannot say that demons do not exist, ditto.
We cannot say that scientologists are wrong.
Nor anyone who claims to have seen a ghost, or a vampire.
Where is the Teacher?? Teaching you to know God? You are missing the point.
Here. https://www.facebook.com/TheTeacherFairyTeachingResources
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Only-White-People-Abducted-Aliens/dp/1626361134
http://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/teaching-demons/
http://www.xenu.net/archive/infopack/6.htm
http://www.mibba.com/Poems/Read/12002/The-Ghost-Teacher/
http://vampireacademy.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Teachers
 
We theists have no evidence for our beliefs. So no amount of rational evidence will dissuade us from those beliefs. - JCisall

It would be pretty piss poor brainwashing, if the victims knew they were brainwashed, wouldn't it? - Screwtape. 04/12/12

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Re: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« Reply #305 on: March 01, 2014, 08:47:42 AM »
In short, the "knowledge" that these people have - of god, of sugar - has meaning only if it can be shared.
That's right. God is in no hurry, some disciples are. He's waiting on all who wants to know and wants to follow the method.

Before I deal with the rest of your post, please explain again - with reference to your sentence above - how you are an atheist and not a theist?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Hatter23

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Re: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« Reply #306 on: March 01, 2014, 08:53:01 AM »

I knew it! Earlier in this thread, I predicted that you would come up with the utter garbage of "How do we know anything?" Everything might be an illusion: it's all in the mind.


It is like the Godwin's law of theist positions:

As any conversation between an atheist and a theist goes on long enough, the probability of the theist using some form of "How do we know anything" approaches 100%.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Jesuis

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Re: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« Reply #307 on: March 01, 2014, 08:58:22 PM »
According to Julian Johnson drugs cannot be taken in the pursuit of true spiritual knowledge. The pursuit of a pure life is a prerequisite for true enlightenment where Spiritual Consciousness is practiced and observed in real life.

Julian may have only known about LSD. The Indian he got his knowledge from, didn't know about the South American Ayahuasca culture. They use the smaller amounts of DMT in "The Vine" + MAO inhibitors to get into that state for healing as well as seeing through the eyes of "spirits". There is a recent doco on Australian ABC about how Christian theologians were given the stuff and rated it "highly significant". (or something like that)

Here is the page
http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/encounter/mind-at-large/4570186
How do you know the Indian did not know --- was it due to your immense powers of ESP and time travel capabilities? Have you taken the drug?  :D
 
According to the books I m reading Theists want their disciples to be more and more consciously aware and constructively active in the world --- not less and less through drugs and unconsciousness - they ask students to be more capable of using the power of the present moment through their minds awareness rather than in its indulgences of time travel. Their minds must be very very focused in the present and not drugged thus drifting through time and space. It must know the nature of imagination as mind activity which is distinctly separate from awareness activity - which is evolving moment by moment remaining in the present second by second.

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The ancient Greeks came up with Hades, and the River Styx, and a whole lot of other crap, that mired science for millennia.
We  do not know the reasoning behind this -- but if I was to guess it was always about entertainment, crowd control coming from the people charged with that ability they have over others to keep the flock safe and entertained.

Quote
You may have missed the point of my last post. There may or not be equivalence between drugs and techniques. The techniques of masters may achieve nothing.
Well that is true. The student is either ready or not - he will not achieve anything if he is not ready; spirituality is not a forced process, it is a awareness process. There is conscious awareness through spirituality and then their is the mental wranglings through drugs, egotism and thinking. And just in case you missed it "the path of the masters" according to Julian Johnson is one without the use of drugs, or force or miracles - The book was also written at a time when drugs was a western way of life and for these people seeking enlightenment in India it was made clear that abstinence was the first stage . Being told not to take drugs was a prerequisite for being accepted into discipleship.

Quote
What are you suggesting? That I should or should not? I'm not sure if you respect her or not. She seems like a Kim Kardashian. Wikipedia has a few examples of frauds, manipulation, environmental damage, grandiose behaviour. She's an easy target. Master of self promotion.
I am saying she is a modern day Theist like Paul Twitchell.
1. She knows God.
2. She must have had a teacher 
3. She also teaches how to know God.
4. Some of her followers verify her method.

So my title "Theists know and atheist don't still stands true. Even if she is a fraud the title does not take away what she knows, what she teaches and what others experience.

If you want to say the title is wrong - you have to prove why. I am giving you all the evidence you need to support my truth and you are proposing things that come out of your mind through ESP.

Quote
Supposing she WAS a "master". What is it a master of? Can she levitate, heal, pick lotto numbers, or just create a feel-good light in the imaginative?
From the books I have proposed for reading.  A master Theist knows God. They are there to teach those who want to know God. End of story. They are not concerned about what you do as a human but if you say you want to know then they say there is a process. If you really want to know God they have a method and it is as timeless as humanity itself. Self Awareness, Compassion, Truthfulness etc.

Quote
Yes, but you should be doing the research, not I.
You are disagreeing with my proposed title. I am presenting the reasoning based on the evidence. You have to say why you disagree with the evidence I bring. You cannot use your powers of ESP to disagree. We need facts.

You did well with Paul Twitchell, so I thought she was going to get the same treatment.

What you do and I disagree with relative to the topic is reject the title based on your beliefs - which are 
1. that they do not exist
2. that they do not teach a method and
3. what they teach is not verifiable

Quote
The bible has accuracies in it, too. Twitchell's wife said he was a fraud. He studied with L Ron H. How would anybody know if what is in the book is true or false? You can't verify any technique, as to whether it's your imagination or not. If you want to remote view this bit of paper I've just stuck on my wall and read it, go for it  :)
Really ? As atheists we have heard the debates on the bible many times. We cannot talk to the bible to verify anything as true. We need the human authority figure to make the statements in a book possible. If the bible says unicorns -- we have no human authority showing us.  If the bible says To thine own self be true we have an authority. You can verify when you are not being.

In spirituality if you do not have any spiritual experiences with a spiritual teacher chances are it is the method or the teacher or both. If they were both not practicing the method and both lying to each other we have corruption. It is not for everybody I agree but progress is a process of truths on both sides. The teacher and his disciples have a method of an ungoing progression.

Quote
How do we tell the difference? If I psyche myself up during an Eck meditation, and I hear some music, I would righteously claim I just entered the Eck consciousness, or I may have just dreamed it. I wonder if there is much in Julian's book about how to distinguish an imagined experience from  a real one.
You cannot psyche yourself up to know God. Like you cannot psyche yourself up to know physics. It a process of knowing. It does not happen over night. It is in the nature of wanting to know that determines the path you take. If you hear something you hear it, if you do not hear then you do not. Being true to yourself  is the beginning of such a quest of self realization. You may have not found the teacher but the search exists within you to know that is still there. If you heard that there is something called the atom and wanted to know there is a process but if you left the process and decided that you no longer wanted to know you should know that is your problem and not someone else's.

Quote
I know that you can put meditation masters into PET and mag resonance devices, and find they are doing real things. But there is a small group of people who have learned from one woman, how to psyche themselves into whole body orgasms, and the Mag Res seems to confirm it's really happening. (Unless the sex doco was lying to me. [Strange Sex s01e02] Mind you there is this whole series by Stan Lee, called Superhumans, which is terribly interesting, even if 30% of it is true.
True again - why believe anything - there is a science behind the idea that we are all interconnected. What one man can do so can another.
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

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Re: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« Reply #308 on: March 01, 2014, 09:08:13 PM »
That's right. God is in no hurry, some disciples are. He's waiting on all who wants to know and wants to follow the method.

Before I deal with the rest of your post, please explain again - with reference to your sentence above - how you are an atheist and not a theist?
Human nature - a mistake of your making by definition - relative to my definition of course.  I do not know God so by my definition I am an atheist. My mistake is not to keep saying according to this guy or that guy. I apologize for that. According to the Masters God is not in a hurry he has all of time to bring home every single individual that is a conscious part of itself.
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline Jesuis

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Re: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« Reply #309 on: March 01, 2014, 09:13:43 PM »
Quote
Then to follow YOUR logic through......

We cannot say fairies do not exist.  Some people have experienced them, so we cannot say they do not.
We cannot say alien abductions do not happen, for the same reason.
We cannot say that demons do not exist, ditto.
We cannot say that scientologists are wrong.
Nor anyone who claims to have seen a ghost, or a vampire.
Where is the Teacher?? Teaching you to know God? You are missing the point.
Here. https://www.facebook.com/TheTeacherFairyTeachingResources
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Only-White-People-Abducted-Aliens/dp/1626361134
http://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/teaching-demons/
http://www.xenu.net/archive/infopack/6.htm
http://www.mibba.com/Poems/Read/12002/The-Ghost-Teacher/
http://vampireacademy.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Teachers
That is funny -- well it is a free world. Every body wants to be a teacher. You know what they say about a little knowledge - it can go to your head.
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

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Re: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« Reply #310 on: March 01, 2014, 09:18:04 PM »
Where is the Teacher?? Teaching you to know God? You are missing the point.

The Teacher is here. I am He. Astreja is She. We have taught you of Our godness. You're the one who ignored Us in a futile attempt to cling to your false belief that you're an atheist.
I thought it was you that rejected the logic of the Title. Still being debated on here. What is your logic that their is no theists, no method being taught and no experiences being had? Where is your verifiable evidence that you are right?
Theists are very active, they are still alive and still teaching how to know God and they still claim to know. I cannot deny the evidence but you reject it. You need to clarify why you reject it to prove me wrong.
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

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Re: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« Reply #311 on: March 01, 2014, 09:22:13 PM »

I was thinking about the sugar analogy that Jesuis used, and it says a lot about him actually.  I think he is trying to make sense of the fact that so many people on the planet believe in a god currently and throughout history.

For him, so many people believing in a god is the equivalent of everyone on earth experiencing sugar.

I was looking at the wikipedia page for sugar and apparently in 2011, the world produced 168 million tons of sugar.  So that is 168 million tons of evidence that sugar exists.  Can you imagine if we had 168 million tons of evidence that a god exists?  Hehe  :)
Well we do have what theists call life. Wherever you find it. The billions of it comes from God. Doubt you can weigh up life but the evidence is everywhere if you care to look. But what you will find best is to look at the one piece of evidence you can work with --- your life. According to theists the answer to God is already is in you while you have the human life form.  :D
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline Jesuis

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Re: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« Reply #312 on: March 01, 2014, 09:29:57 PM »
Or the thread should be closed, it's going nowhere.
Why is that -- have you proved the the Title is wrong. Why is it I do not follow your logic? It should be simple really.
Theists do not exist.
Theists do not teach about God
Theists have no verifiable evidence
Theists have no repeatable verifiable method.

I would at this stage add Julian Johnson's Master - Kirpal Singh and his Master Sawan Singh before this got to the west.
Please prove that they do not exist, that their method is not repeatable and that they do not know God.
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« Reply #313 on: March 01, 2014, 09:54:04 PM »
Theists do not exist.
Theists do not believe that they teach about God
Theists have no verifiable evidence
Theists have no repeatable verifiable method.

Fixed.
Rule 1: No pooftas. Rule 2: No maltreating the theists, IF, anyone is watching. Rule 3: No pooftas. Rule 4: I do not want to see anyone NOT drinking after light out. Rule 5: No pooftas. Rule 6: There is NO...rule 6.

Offline SevenPatch

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Re: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« Reply #314 on: March 01, 2014, 10:08:02 PM »
Well we do have what theists call life. Wherever you find it. The billions of it comes from God. Doubt you can weigh up life but the evidence is everywhere if you care to look. But what you will find best is to look at the one piece of evidence you can work with --- your life. According to theists the answer to God is already is in you while you have the human life form.  :D

Are you trying to say life is the evidence for "God"?

What leads you to this conclusion?

You're using circular logic if theists are your only source for concluding that life is the evidence for a god.
"Shut him up! We have a lot invested in this ride - SHUT HIM UP! Look at my furrows of worry! Look at my big bank account, and my family! This just HAS to be real!" - Bill Hicks

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« Reply #315 on: March 01, 2014, 10:20:29 PM »
Human nature - a mistake of your making by definition - relative to my definition of course.  I do not know God so by my definition I am an atheist. My mistake is not to keep saying according to this guy or that guy. I apologize for that. According to the Masters God is not in a hurry he has all of time to bring home every single individual that is a conscious part of itself.

If t here is a god, he has infinity. We have but, at best, eight or nine decades. And many have less. If we're on his schedule, most of us are going to miss the boat.

I suggest that you stay out of the new age section at Amazon or the bookstore or wherever, and head over to the zombie books. They are written by a better class of people.
Jesus, the cracker flavored treat!

Offline Jesuis

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Re: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« Reply #316 on: March 01, 2014, 10:48:26 PM »
As for Sugar how do we know it is sweet - we know because we have experienced it via our senses.
How do we know water is wet, or Sunshine is warn, or beauty is in a sunset.
We may read these things but we do not know of it. When we experience it than we know it.

I knew it! Earlier in this thread, I predicted that you would come up with the utter garbage of "How do we know anything?" Everything might be an illusion: it's all in the mind.
You suggested we use the term "Perceive" - I rejected that because of this very same problem. Now that I have explained how the mind works you seem to want to take credit for some sort of ESP power of predictions. I was rejecting its proposal based on "knowing" which nothing to do with mind.

Quote
I advise members to stop reading at this point. Failure to do so will deprive you of well over 5 minutes of your life that you will never get back.
But why would you do that? You have not understood my point. "Consciousness"

Quote
It may be "common parlance" where you live - it isn't where I live.
Depends on what you call observed -- For me a tree is observed - common parlance --
A unicorn is unobserved -- it's imaginary - requires us to mentally engage the minds creation. Critical thinking.

God according to you is observed and has form -- in your mind like unicorns -- common parlance to you but not to me or to the theists who disagree.
 
They say God has no form it is everywhere, they say you have to merge in God not talk to God. Your concept differs from that of theists.  Your common parlance is corrupted when it comes to God or Consciousness. Where is the critical thinking?

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Look, all you need to know is that what we experience is, to us, reality.
Scientists say it is an illusion. Theists say it is an illusion.
So is your observation "the creation from your mind"?
According to both theists and scientists the mind creates illusions then it responds to illusions and fixates on illusions, the mind makes it real.. Your reality is nothing according to them but lights sounds strings trapped in clockwork.

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That is how it is defined. What we make of that reality is our perception of reality but, we all perceive much the same thing: it works for us and works for everyone else and all sensible creatures. And that is how it is and has always been.
Sounds like a preacher at work. Common parlance yes but scientists and theists disagree. If we are to solve complex problems of Life, consciousness, mind and body we need to know what we are dealing with. At the physical level of the senses of the body is enlivened by an energy source that is conscious. When consciousness leaves it is dead. This is the teachings of the Theists and it method of knowing is a scientific approach based on observation of mind..

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This is wrong because the conclusion is a non-sequitur. It would only be valid if "spiritual things spoke in very high frequencies - which they don't.
What instrument did you use to conclude that? The only instrument that can measure spiritual frequencies is one made of spirit. Therefore only the spiritually enlightened people can talk of those frequency/frequencies.

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There is no "error."
Proof would be better. I do not like dictatorship. As you may have recognized by now.

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Jesuis,
You have been deceived by your own irrational conclusions. This comes via not thinking critically. You have decided to believe in a discredited theory and then fit all the circumstances to that theory, instead of questioning it.
I just said that about you.
Care to reevaluate your position based on logic, rational thinking, critical thinking with the evidence. I can shift my position if you are logical and critical. But don't throw me dogma.

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The alternative is that you have stated the blindingly obvious but disguised it by misuse of words.
Your kidding me right?

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You need to abandon your ideas.
Throw me a logical carrot man. Some rational, critical thinking. Don't ask me to follow you blindly.

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I know you have invested a lot in them.
Your ESP is showing. You know what you know but this is not one of them. Be specific.

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I know that they seem to make sense to you just at the moment, but seriously, you need to break any connection between the senses and mystic, invisible deities because all that you are saying is:

"I don't understand what "thought" is, therefore I'm going to pull a theory out of my arse and say that is the answer."
TBH you are telling me - not educating me -
I see you do not understand consciousness as we have been debating.
A dog is conscious.
The concept of thought like what we do it is incapable of.
I am specific that God is all conscious Theists say so.
We humans are capable of being conscious and aware especially of the thoughts emanating from our minds not others.
Theists are saying we can have an awareness beyond the creation of mind. What is your response to their observations? They have a method to observe the mind.
But do not take me for a fool - I do not do "belief" very well nor do I like lack the ability to see uncritical thinking claiming it to be critical thinking.
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline Jesuis

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Re: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« Reply #317 on: March 01, 2014, 10:51:20 PM »
Human nature - a mistake of your making by definition - relative to my definition of course.  I do not know God so by my definition I am an atheist. My mistake is not to keep saying according to this guy or that guy. I apologize for that. According to the Masters God is not in a hurry he has all of time to bring home every single individual that is a conscious part of itself.

If t here is a god, he has infinity. We have but, at best, eight or nine decades. And many have less. If we're on his schedule, most of us are going to miss the boat.

I suggest that you stay out of the new age section at Amazon or the bookstore or wherever, and head over to the zombie books. They are written by a better class of people.
I have picked up another one thanks to the video on Paul Twitchell.
And this makes everything clearer. "The teachings of Kirpal Singh"
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline Jesuis

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Re: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« Reply #318 on: March 01, 2014, 10:57:19 PM »
Are you trying to say life is the evidence for "God"?
What leads you to this conclusion?
You're using circular logic if theists are your only source for concluding that life is the evidence for a god.
Its consciousness is.
Life is conscious of its environment.
Human life have a high conscious capability.
Only the most conscious know God. That is where the teachings of God originate - not from a mind of illusion but from one that is controlled by consciousness. It is the untrained and unschooled mind that creates all these imaginary beliefs for its own selfish reasons in ego.

According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.