Author Topic: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.  (Read 7282 times)

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Offline Jesuis

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Re: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« Reply #58 on: February 18, 2014, 06:14:48 PM »

He claims he's an atheist since he doesn't "know" his god.

-Nam
Someone is paying attention but not fully making sense. "Atheist" "His God" in the same sentence. Impressive  :(
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline Jesuis

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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #59 on: February 18, 2014, 06:19:35 PM »
Are you on drugs?

-Nam
Come on Nam you are better than that.
   
    You haven't really been paying attention  have you?
I did not comprehend why someone would ask that.  I should start a thread on what this statement implies.
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline Nam

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Re: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« Reply #60 on: February 18, 2014, 07:23:29 PM »

He claims he's an atheist since he doesn't "know" his god.

-Nam
Someone is paying attention but not fully making sense. "Atheist" "His God" in the same sentence. Impressive  :(

You're not difficult to figure out. I just think like a mentally handicapped five year old, and you start making sense.

I apologize to mentally handicapped five year olds for the insult; it needed to be said.

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline ButterFlavoredPam

Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #61 on: February 18, 2014, 07:32:20 PM »
I am not talking about religion or belief. 
I am talking about the science of the theists.

I think it is at this point that you need to look very closely at the "science" of the theists.

Only a few hundred years ago theists "knew" with no doubt in their minds that the Earth was the center of the universe.  To "know" something in your heart is to "believe".  Belief does not equal knowledge. 

edit - corrected a few words and the order.   :-[
« Last Edit: February 18, 2014, 07:33:55 PM by ButterFlavoredPam »
“In dark ages people are best guided by religion, as in a pitch-black night a blind man is the best guide; he knows the roads and paths better than a man who can see. When daylight comes, however, it is foolish to use blind, old men as guides.”
 Heinrich Heine

Online mrbiscoop

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Re: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« Reply #62 on: February 18, 2014, 07:54:57 PM »
« Last Edit: February 18, 2014, 08:09:15 PM by mrbiscoop »
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me.
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Offline Jesuis

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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #63 on: February 18, 2014, 08:03:07 PM »
I am not talking about religion or belief. 
I am talking about the science of the theists.

I think it is at this point that you need to look very closely at the "science" of the theists.

Only a few hundred years ago theists "knew" with no doubt in their minds that the Earth was the center of the universe.  To "know" something in your heart is to "believe".  Belief does not equal knowledge. 

edit - corrected a few words and the order.   :-[
Theist have little time for this agenda that the earth is the center of the universe. That is the work of critical thinking men trying their best to focus accurately on what is the center of the universe.

Theists have enough difficulty with the human mental condition of their followers that are stuck in beliefs and are working tirelessly to get their disciples out of beliefs and know God. .. I totally agreed that belief is not equal to knowing.  That is why I am asking for this threads name to be given a thumbs up for fact.
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline stuffin

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Re: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« Reply #64 on: February 18, 2014, 08:37:45 PM »
The Believer is a mental problem or a dictionary cock up.  If we say an atheist believes there is no God we have him down as a believer of sorts.
If theists could demonstrate their god(s), then it would be a moot point.

Exactly correct, this whole thread took place cause Mr Jesuis can'y prove his God is real.

He claims he's an atheist since he doesn't "know" his god.

-Nam

Does that make him a theist waiting to happen?
I'd cut him if he stands, and I'd shoot him if he'd run
 Yes I'd kill him with my Bible and my razor and my gun

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Offline Nam

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Re: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« Reply #65 on: February 18, 2014, 08:42:48 PM »
Makes him an idiot in my eyes.

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline ButterFlavoredPam

Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #66 on: February 18, 2014, 08:44:46 PM »
Theists have enough difficulty with the human mental condition of their followers that are stuck in beliefs and are working tirelessly to get their disciples out of beliefs and know God. .. I totally agreed that belief is not equal to knowing.  That is why I am asking for this threads name to be given a thumbs up for fact.

I think this is English but I'm not sure.  They are English words but they seem to be strung together at random . . . disjointed.   
“In dark ages people are best guided by religion, as in a pitch-black night a blind man is the best guide; he knows the roads and paths better than a man who can see. When daylight comes, however, it is foolish to use blind, old men as guides.”
 Heinrich Heine

Offline stuffin

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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #67 on: February 18, 2014, 08:47:59 PM »
I totally agreed that belief is not equal to knowing.  That is why I am asking for this threads name to be given a thumbs up for fact.

OK Theists know God (probably needs defining though). But to say Atheists don't know God is not a fact. We know God well enough to know he is not.
I'd cut him if he stands, and I'd shoot him if he'd run
 Yes I'd kill him with my Bible and my razor and my gun

Poverty is the parent of revolution and crime.
Aristotle

Offline Jesuis

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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #68 on: February 18, 2014, 08:49:38 PM »
I am not talking about religion or belief. 
I am talking about the science of the theists.

I think it is at this point that you need to look very closely at the "science" of the theists.

Only a few hundred years ago theists "knew" with no doubt in their minds that the Earth was the center of the universe.  To "know" something in your heart is to "believe".  Belief does not equal knowledge. 

edit - corrected a few words and the order.   :-[
Wrong. Theists know God and the process to know God.
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline Jesuis

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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #69 on: February 18, 2014, 08:51:01 PM »
I totally agreed that belief is not equal to knowing.  That is why I am asking for this threads name to be given a thumbs up for fact.

OK Theists know God (probably needs defining though). But to say Atheists don't know God is not a fact. We know God well enough to know he is not.
Atheist do not know God.
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline stuffin

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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #70 on: February 18, 2014, 08:58:57 PM »
I totally agreed that belief is not equal to knowing.  That is why I am asking for this threads name to be given a thumbs up for fact.

OK Theists know God (probably needs defining though). But to say Atheists don't know God is not a fact. We know God well enough to know he is not.
Atheist do not know God.

Could you please explain to me, how I don't know God.

I'd cut him if he stands, and I'd shoot him if he'd run
 Yes I'd kill him with my Bible and my razor and my gun

Poverty is the parent of revolution and crime.
Aristotle

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #71 on: February 18, 2014, 09:00:51 PM »
You have not addressed the statement.
As you did not address your use of language, I think we are quits.
Quote
  "Theists know God and atheist do not".
Simply put, it is not possible to "know" any gods. Your idea of what a god is, is quote different from that of all other religious people. There are not two people on the planet who would agree on the "interpretation" of the entire Bible, nor on what any god wants from them. Hence your concept of a god belongs to you and you alone. You "know" the god you created but nobody else does.

By contrast, few of us disagree about the "interpretation" of Pythagoras's Theorem. This gives you the idea (or should do) that gods are imaginary. figments of the mind, a comforting delusion.

I have no such gods. I understand the concept of a god.

Quote
This statement has no words of belief in it. Why not?
Which statement? Mine? It does, read it again.

Yours contains this
Quote
the logic of two believers fighting each other is stupid inhumane plan.
There then follows a list of "believers."
« Last Edit: February 18, 2014, 09:02:56 PM by Graybeard »
RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

Offline Quesi

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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #72 on: February 18, 2014, 09:01:36 PM »
Theists know God and atheists don't is a statement of fact and we can build our humanity and humane interaction on it.

I don't understand this thread at all.

I know lots of gods.  And I like most of them. 

Gods represent the values and culture and belief systems of the people who created them.   Most people infuse their gods with moral teachings, and guidance on how to interact within their communities.  And it is often pretty good stuff.


Offline Graybeard

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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #73 on: February 18, 2014, 09:06:40 PM »
Gods represent the values and culture and belief systems of the people who created them.   Most people infuse their gods with moral teachings, and guidance on how to interact within their communities.  And it is often pretty good stuff.
Time for some culture:

Heaven by Rupert Brooke

Fish (fly-replete, in depth of June,
Dawdling away their wat'ry noon)
Ponder deep wisdom, dark or clear,
Each secret fishy hope or fear.
Fish say, they have their Stream and Pond;
But is there anything Beyond?
This life cannot be All, they swear,
For how unpleasant, if it were!
One may not doubt that, somehow, Good
Shall come of Water and of Mud;
And, sure, the reverent eye must see
A Purpose in Liquidity.
We darkly know, by Faith we cry,
The future is not Wholly Dry.
Mud unto mud! -- Death eddies near --
Not here the appointed End, not here!
But somewhere, beyond Space and Time.
Is wetter water, slimier slime!
And there (they trust) there swimmeth One
Who swam ere rivers were begun,
Immense, of fishy form and mind,
Squamous, omnipotent, and kind;
And under that Almighty Fin,
The littlest fish may enter in.
Oh! never fly conceals a hook,
Fish say, in the Eternal Brook,
But more than mundane weeds are there,
And mud, celestially fair;
Fat caterpillars drift around,
And Paradisal grubs are found;
Unfading moths, immortal flies,
And the worm that never dies.
And in that Heaven of all their wish,
There shall be no more land, say fish.
RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

Online ParkingPlaces

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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #74 on: February 18, 2014, 09:26:36 PM »
Atheist do not know God.

You just don't get it. Of course we don't know god. He doesn't exist. That makes it hard. Unless you're willing to make stuff up. In which case it is you thinking you know god because you made up the part where you do. And believed yourself. Which is cute and all, but we atheists find such exercises patently useless.

I know you think otherwise, but you don't know. Just like you don't know god. You just tell yourself you do. And you're pretty convincing, because you obviously believe yourself. Again, cute, except for the part where it makes you very very wrong.

So again, it isn't god you know, it is your imagination, on fire with infinite possibilities and minor hopes. That part of you knows the god you made up.

Not the best way to spend your day, IMHO.

EDIT: Fixed quoting because jdawg70 is so particular  ;D
« Last Edit: February 18, 2014, 10:46:29 PM by ParkingPlaces »
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline Jesuis

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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #75 on: February 19, 2014, 01:22:10 AM »
Atheist do not know God.

You just don't get it. Of course we don't know god. He doesn't exist. That makes it hard. Unless you're willing to make stuff up. In which case it is you thinking you know god because you made up the part where you do. And believed yourself. Which is cute and all, but we atheists find such exercises patently useless.

I know you think otherwise, but you don't know. Just like you don't know god. You just tell yourself you do. And you're pretty convincing, because you obviously believe yourself. Again, cute, except for the part where it makes you very very wrong.

So again, it isn't god you know, it is your imagination, on fire with infinite possibilities and minor hopes. That part of you knows the god you made up.

Not the best way to spend your day, IMHO.

EDIT: Fixed quoting because jdawg70 is so particular  ;D
Ditto.
Jesus Mahavira Buddha Nanak Zoroaster to name a few would disagree with you.
They know God.
They have said it and their followers have authenticated it by te method taught.
You are not understanding the science of knowing.  The true master and the true disciple.
We Atheists do not know because we do not have a teacher. That much is clear.
It really is a simple statement of truth.  Theists know God and atheists don't.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2014, 01:45:39 AM by Jesuis »
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline Jesuis

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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #76 on: February 19, 2014, 01:50:51 AM »
Theists know God and atheists don't is a statement of fact and we can build our humanity and humane interaction on it.

I don't understand this thread at all.

I know lots of gods.
  And I like most of them. 

Gods represent the values and culture and belief systems of the people who created them.   Most people infuse their gods with moral teachings, and guidance on how to interact within their communities.  And it is often pretty good stuff.
There is a process to knowing. One taught from master to disciple.
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline Jesuis

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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #77 on: February 19, 2014, 01:53:01 AM »
I totally agreed that belief is not equal to knowing.  That is why I am asking for this threads name to be given a thumbs up for fact.

OK Theists know God (probably needs defining though). But to say Atheists don't know God is not a fact. We know God well enough to know he is not.
Atheist do not know God.

Could you please explain to me, how I don't know God.
Its a Master disciple relationship.
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline Jesuis

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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #78 on: February 19, 2014, 01:56:57 AM »
You have not addressed the statement.
As you did not address your use of language, I think we are quits.
Quote
  "Theists know God and atheist do not".
Simply put, it is not possible to "know" any gods. Your idea of what a god is, is quote different from that of all other religious people. There are not two people on the planet who would agree on the "interpretation" of the entire Bible, nor on what any god wants from them. Hence your concept of a god belongs to you and you alone. You "know" the god you created but nobody else does.

By contrast, few of us disagree about the "interpretation" of Pythagoras's Theorem. This gives you the idea (or should do) that gods are imaginary. figments of the mind, a comforting delusion.

I have no such gods. I understand the concept of a god.

Quote
This statement has no words of belief in it. Why not?
Which statement? Mine? It does, read it again.

Yours contains this
Quote
the logic of two believers fighting each other is stupid inhumane plan.
There then follows a list of "believers."
That is not what the people who practice the method say.
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #79 on: February 19, 2014, 04:35:59 AM »

I am not talking about religion or belief. 
I am talking about the science of the theists.
Theist proposes a Hypothesis - there is a God. They are not forcing you to believe in them. If you want to undertake the path to truth.
They prescribe a Method:- Blessed are the pure at heart for they shall see God.
Conclusion : Once the mind of the faithful is purified from negativity and belief they will know God. And they have discovered the same self evident truths.

I don't think you quite understand how science works. You can't hijack the word for your own new meaning, If you propose a hypothesis that god exists then you need to -

1. carry out some experiment that shows this to be the case and publish the results.

2. Sit back while lots of other people follow your method and hope that they get the same result.

However, to be good science, the experiment is not going to be what you propose. It is going to have to be something the scientist can observe or measure. Can you manage that?


Quote
Only an atheist can undertake this truth finding process of the self. Both Atheists and Theists do not have beliefs. We have the perfect group for establishing the truth once and for all in a scientific way. "To thine own self be true". They want us to be without belief they have a method and they have the science. It has always been so with the theists. Without the theist it is all blind faith or belief. You need the theist and the perfect student for the seekers of truth.

Nice waffle but get down to the experiment above - come up with an experiment that can be done by anyone and which gives the same result and does not involve the person carrying out the experiment.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline bertatberts

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Re: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« Reply #80 on: February 19, 2014, 05:03:33 AM »
Ditto.
Jesus Mahavira Buddha Nanak Zoroaster to name a few would disagree with you.
They know God.
No they only think they know, they have imagined a god/gods and have convinced themselves they're right. They cannot know, that which does not exist. All they know is what they subjectively think they know. They have no evidence for their claims of knowledge.
Quote from: Jesuis
They have said it and their followers have authenticated it by te method taught.
No they have passed on their imagined gods and there followers have believed them. That in no way makes their gods real or known.
Quote from: Jesuis
You are not understanding the science of knowing.
Utter BS. And you are talking out of your arse. 
Quote from: Jesuis
The true master and the true disciple.
No! The schizophrenic nut job and his believers. 
Quote from: Jesuis
We Atheists do not know because we do not have a teacher.
Why would we need a teacher when it is as clear as the nose on your face.
Do we need a teacher to teach us to know that leprechauns exist. When it is clear they don't, born out by the lack of evidence. The theist or if you like the schizophrenic nut job, has the burden to show how he could know what he claims to know, because as it stands he can simply make up what he wants and claim it to be true. And by your criteria, and your meaning for "know", you have no way to judge. 
Quote from: Jesuis
There is a process to knowing. One taught from master to disciple.
How do you know what is being taught is true. Are you saying we should simply take their word for it. 
Quote from: Jesuis
Its a Master disciple relationship.
But who is the master? The person who exists or the imagined god.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2014, 06:20:57 AM by bertatberts »
We theists have no evidence for our beliefs. So no amount of rational evidence will dissuade us from those beliefs. - JCisall

It would be pretty piss poor brainwashing, if the victims knew they were brainwashed, wouldn't it? - Screwtape. 04/12/12

Offline Graybeard

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Re: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« Reply #81 on: February 19, 2014, 05:46:57 AM »
I complain bitterly about your loose use of language. This is no exception:
Jesus Mahavira Buddha Nanak Zoroaster to name a few would disagree with you.
They know God.
They have said it and their followers have authenticated it by the method taught.
All you have said is,

“The above have told a story and people have believed them.”

Does J.K. Rowling “know” Harry Potter?

Quote
You are not understanding the science of knowing.
I think he is.

It is you who will not define “know” and use the verb in a way unique to you (and perhaps other believers.)
Quote
[The true master and the true disciple.
What do you mean by “true” and how do you know.

Quote
We Atheists do not know because we do not have a teacher. That much is clear.
We atheists?

Well, first, we do not have teachers to tell us about why we should believe that unicorns and leprechauns are real.

You can’t get a Masters in Teletubby anatomy, but you can get a Master’s in theology.
 
Quote
It really is a simple statement of truth.  Theists know God and atheists don't.
Your statement is “simple” in the sense of “naïve”; “innocent of all critical thought.” “childlike acceptance,” etc.
RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #82 on: February 19, 2014, 08:23:34 AM »
Atheist do not know God.

I know god/gods just fine. Take the sum of man's ignorance, wishes for importance, and fears...give it a personality, that is god . This is the nature of every deity mankind have ever worshipped.



An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #83 on: February 19, 2014, 10:10:25 AM »
I am not talking about religion or belief. 
I am talking about the science of the theists.

I think it is at this point that you need to look very closely at the "science" of the theists.

Only a few hundred years ago theists "knew" with no doubt in their minds that the Earth was the center of the universe.  To "know" something in your heart is to "believe".  Belief does not equal knowledge. 

edit - corrected a few words and the order.   :-[
Wrong. Theists know God and the process to know God.
Then why the words belief and faith thrown around so much?
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #84 on: February 19, 2014, 11:28:31 AM »
Why won't you support the statement "Theists know God and atheists don't"?

I suspect what you actually mean is something more akin to "Trekkies know Spock and non-Trekkies don't" - that there can be a fictional thing that knowledge can be had concerning.

Because the way it is written - capitalising god, for starters - it appears to grant the existence of that "God" as an existent thing that can be known.

Surely if god is an existent thing that can be known, it would be extremely easy for a theist to impart that knowledge to the atheist?



Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Tonus

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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #85 on: February 19, 2014, 11:37:41 AM »
Theist proposes a Hypothesis - there is a God. They are not forcing you to believe in them. If you want to undertake the path to truth.
They prescribe a Method:- Blessed are the pure at heart for they shall see God.
This approach cannot be verified or falsified and is therefore useless for determining the truth of a matter, in this case whether or not there is a god.  Simply put: the believer must be of pure heart, because he claims to see god.  The person who desires to see god and works to purify his heart but does not see god did not purify his heart in the proper manner or is "very close, but needs more effort."  I am guessing that the steps needed to become "pure of heart" are ambiguous enough that anyone who doesn't see god can be accused of not following them correctly or with sufficient effort.

I've seen many Christians do this in regards to prayer.  They believe that god answers prayers.  So if they pray and get the result they desired, it means god answered the prayer.  If they pray and get a different result, it means god answered the prayer and gave you what you needed, not what you wanted.  If they pray and get no result, it means god answered the prayer by not answering it, or you simply need to be patient and he will answer it.  It's not that god answers your prayers, it's that YOU answer them and credit god.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #86 on: February 19, 2014, 11:39:24 AM »
.... Mahavira Buddha Nanak Zoroaster to name a few would disagree with you.
They know God.
They have said it and their followers have authenticated it by te method taught.

There's a chap here, called Skeptic, who would say that the above persons only know a demon, who has been luring them away from God, with sophisticated delusions.

Are you still a theist, if you are actually worshiping a demon? Does theism extend to anybody who worships a cryptic spiritual entity?
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.