Author Topic: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.  (Read 5810 times)

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Offline Astreja

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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #29 on: February 18, 2014, 02:40:21 AM »
Theism and atheism are generally considered to be matters of belief.  As soon as the word "know" gets tossed into the mix, we've entered the gnostic/agnostic realm.

I don't think any of us would put up much objection if the thread was entitled "Gnostic theists claim to know God."  Whether or not a believer actually knows a genuine god is debatable, though.  How does one go about verifying the claim of knowledge and whether or not the source is actually divine?  I can't see a way to do it, and that problem is the primary reason I self-identified as strong agnostic even when I still had theistic beliefs.

Using "theist" as a shortcut for "gnostic theist" is just confusing everyone, and making discussion very difficult.

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Offline Jesuis

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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #30 on: February 18, 2014, 07:48:57 AM »


Because it's nonsensical. A theist creates thhttp://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/Themes/default/images/bbc/hr.gife religion around the god they also create. It's irrelevant whether (hypothetically) that god existed before their religion, they recreated it to suit their religion. Which is why I inserted "deists" whose whole "religion" is "god".

You're saying that theists have no beliefs (the same as atheists) because they don't know god. I am saying, by definition, they do have beliefs based on the fact they know their god that they worship around their religion.

Definition of theist/m[1]: "belief in the existence of a god or gods, esp. belief in one god as creator of the universe, intervening in it and sustaining a personal relation to his creatures."

Atheist/m is defined as[2]: "disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods."

They are different. You're saying they're the same because in YOUR OPINION theists can't know what is defined as God[3]: "the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being." based on the fact it's a higher being; they can't know something they are beneath, or not at the same level. But theists create the religion, create the god, therefore they do know their god.

And atheists believe they are fictional. So, you can't equate the two (a/theism) as being the same. Theists aren't atheists just because atheists don't believe in the god/s. Atheists aren't theists because theism is dictated by canon and a godhead.

Quote
We can build a path for humanity out of belief. Isn't that what you want?

Again: nonsensical.

-Nam
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As I said this is not factual. Nor scientific.

Science requires us to first name the scientists putting forward the hypothesis. Then what his method is and finally what his conclusions are. Then it is peer reviews or verified. So why won't you endorse the factual statement. Theists know God atheists don't? Theists have a name, have put to his followers the hypothesis and a method to know. And those that do the experiment verify the method and his truth. There is no belief here!
« Last Edit: February 18, 2014, 07:51:20 AM by Jesuis »
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #31 on: February 18, 2014, 08:00:09 AM »
Jesuis,

I'm not a scientist, and clearly neither are you. I'm using actuality, and you're using delusional fantasy dictated by your rules and guidelines. You've skipped the hypothesis and went straight to the conclusion.

You lost from the beginning. That's a fact, Jack.

-Nam
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Offline Jesuis

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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #32 on: February 18, 2014, 08:11:48 AM »
Theism and atheism are generally considered to be matters of belief.  As soon as the word "know" gets tossed into the mix, we've entered the gnostic/agnostic realm.

I don't think any of us would put up much objection if the thread was entitled "Gnostic theists claim to know God."  Whether or not a believer actually knows a genuine god is debatable, though.  How does one go about verifying the claim of knowledge and whether or not the source is actually divine?  I can't see a way to do it, and that problem is the primary reason I self-identified as strong agnostic even when I still had theistic beliefs.

Using "theist" as a shortcut for "gnostic theist" is just confusing everyone, and making discussion very difficult.
Because this does not help the debate in a scientific way.
 
Believers are not an authority on anything.

We need to identify the authority the method and the conclusion for science. 

We need two honest groups of people those "who know" are truthful about what they know are not afraid to say what they know.
Only these two sets of people can be trusted with this science of knowing.

Theists know and atheists don't  - this is the basis of correcting this belief problem and establishing the science of the theists once and for all.
That is why anyone with a scientific brain would want to endorse this statement of fact.
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline Jesuis

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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #33 on: February 18, 2014, 08:15:48 AM »
Jesuis,

I'm not a scientist, and clearly neither are you. I'm using actuality, and you're using delusional fantasy dictated by your rules and guidelines. You've skipped the hypothesis and went straight to the conclusion.

You lost from the beginning. That's a fact, Jack.

-Nam
Obviously you are missing the logic of the proposal. 
Theists know for a long time now and atheists have never known. That has always been the case.
Once these two people are honest about what they know we can move forward scientifically.
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #34 on: February 18, 2014, 08:35:12 AM »
Obviously you are missing the logic of the proposal. 
Theists know for a long time now and atheists have never known. That has always been the case.
Once these two people are honest about what they know we can move forward scientifically.

I think that using your definition of theist, there is no such thing as a theist. (If there is no God).

However, there are plenty of people who think they know God, but really don't.

There is also a possibility for an atheist to think he doesn't know God, when he actually does (if there is a God), which would make that atheist a theist, by your definition.

I strive for clarity, but aim for confusion.

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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #35 on: February 18, 2014, 08:43:01 AM »
Jesuis,

I'm not a scientist, and clearly neither are you. I'm using actuality, and you're using delusional fantasy dictated by your rules and guidelines. You've skipped the hypothesis and went straight to the conclusion.

You lost from the beginning. That's a fact, Jack.

-Nam
Obviously you are missing the logic of the proposal. 
Theists know for a long time now and atheists have never known. That has always been the case.
Once these two people are honest about what they know we can move forward scientifically.

How about the atheists who used to be theists?

-Nam
This is my signature "Nam", don't I have nice typing skills?

Offline Jesuis

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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #36 on: February 18, 2014, 10:09:00 AM »
Obviously you are missing the logic of the proposal. 
Theists know for a long time now and atheists have never known. That has always been the case.
Once these two people are honest about what they know we can move forward scientifically.

I think that using your definition of theist, there is no such thing as a theist. (If there is no God).

However, there are plenty of people who think they know God, but really don't.

There is also a possibility for an atheist to think he doesn't know God, when he actually does (if there is a God), which would make that atheist a theist, by your definition.
But Moses, Jesus, Nanak, Buddha, Mahavira and many more and their real followers who practiced the method taught - would disagree with you.

My definition would require the atheist scientist to take up the challenge if he was scientifically minded and prove them either right or wrong.

There is no hidden agenda in this statement of truth - they either know because they do the practice or they are lying.
Since they also practice truth and the establishing of truths we have nothing too loose - we do not lie about what we know do we?

According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline Jesuis

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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #37 on: February 18, 2014, 10:12:43 AM »
Jesuis,

I'm not a scientist, and clearly neither are you. I'm using actuality, and you're using delusional fantasy dictated by your rules and guidelines. You've skipped the hypothesis and went straight to the conclusion.

You lost from the beginning. That's a fact, Jack.

-Nam
Obviously you are missing the logic of the proposal. 
Theists know for a long time now and atheists have never known. That has always been the case.
Once these two people are honest about what they know we can move forward scientifically.

How about the atheists who used to be theists?

-Nam
There is no Theist who used to be a theist.
One either knows or they don't. 
Any other is not a theist.  There is no wriggle room in knowing and not knowing.
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #38 on: February 18, 2014, 10:19:46 AM »
Obviously you are missing the logic of the proposal. 
Theists know for a long time now and atheists have never known. That has always been the case.
Once these two people are honest about what they know we can move forward scientifically.

I think that using your definition of theist, there is no such thing as a theist. (If there is no God).

However, there are plenty of people who think they know God, but really don't.

There is also a possibility for an atheist to think he doesn't know God, when he actually does (if there is a God), which would make that atheist a theist, by your definition.
But Moses, Jesus, Nanak, Buddha, Mahavira and many more and their real followers who practiced the method taught - would disagree with you.

My definition would require the atheist scientist to take up the challenge if he was scientifically minded and prove them either right or wrong.

There is no hidden agenda in this statement of truth - they either know because they do the practice or they are lying.
Since they also practice truth and the establishing of truths we have nothing too loose - we do not lie about what we know do we?

You are talking twaddle, Jesuis! Sorry and that, but it's true.

Look, Add Homonym corrected the definition of the theist to people who think they know god. You can hardly argue with that given that there is no evidence available of the existence of god. The people you quote did, truly, believe there was a god but even true belief and devotion doesn't magic a god into existence if there isn't one there.

Now what are you talking about attaching 'atheist' and 'scientist' together? Religious belief and science are opposite poles when it comes to knowledge. Science require a hypothesis, testing and then being ripped apart by other scientists until the hypothesis actually matches the facts. That is years of work in many cases - look at the Higgs bosun; predicted by Peter Higgs in 1964 and only discovered in 2013!

Religion works the other way round. One of a few leaders juts tell people what to believe and they have to go away and do it. No working the facts - no checking data - just follow the orders of the leader.The antithesis of good science really.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #39 on: February 18, 2014, 10:24:24 AM »
Jesuis,

I'm not a scientist, and clearly neither are you. I'm using actuality, and you're using delusional fantasy dictated by your rules and guidelines. You've skipped the hypothesis and went straight to the conclusion.

You lost from the beginning. That's a fact, Jack.

-Nam
Obviously you are missing the logic of the proposal. 
Theists know for a long time now and atheists have never known. That has always been the case.
Once these two people are honest about what they know we can move forward scientifically.

How about the atheists who used to be theists?

-Nam
There is no Theist who used to be a theist.
One either knows or they don't. 
Any other is not a theist.  There is no wriggle room in knowing and not knowing.

So that we understand you properly, please define 'know' in this context.

Let me elaborate. I could say I know you, having posted comments and read your posts but you don't seem to mean that. I knew my parents - maybe that sort of know is what you mean? The thing with persons is, though, thta one never really know everything about them - there's always some parts one cannot get to.

The other sort of knowing I could mention is, perhaps, physics. I know the speed of light. I can look it up. It's been tested and tested with better clocks and better experiments. I know this fact and I am certain of it - because of all the testing. We could mention lots of other things but you get the drift. I hope this isn't the sort of knowing you mean.

So, anyway, define the 'know' from you last post.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #40 on: February 18, 2014, 10:30:49 AM »
Why won't you support the statement "Theists know God and atheists don't" Both have no beliefs. Is there a belief problem?

Your close, I've adjusted your statement.

Atheists know God does not exist, and Theists do not know God does not exist.

Can you accept my statement as true?
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Offline Boots

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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #41 on: February 18, 2014, 10:42:54 AM »
Jesuis,

I'm not a scientist, and clearly neither are you. I'm using actuality, and you're using delusional fantasy dictated by your rules and guidelines. You've skipped the hypothesis and went straight to the conclusion.

You lost from the beginning. That's a fact, Jack.

-Nam
Obviously you are missing the logic of the proposal. 
Theists know for a long time now and atheists have never known. That has always been the case.
Once these two people are honest about what they know we can move forward scientifically.

How about the atheists who used to be theists?

-Nam
There is no Theist who used to be a theist.
One either knows or they don't. 
Any other is not a theist.  There is no wriggle room in knowing and not knowing.

I've read through this thread.

I don't know what the eff you're trying to say.
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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #42 on: February 18, 2014, 11:13:54 AM »
Believers are not an authority on anything.

Neither are people who claim to "know God."  They could be truthful about believing that they know a god, but wrong about whether it is a god that they know.

And none of your assertions are facts in our eyes unless they can produce consistent results.  Please suggest an experiment that we can do.
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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #43 on: February 18, 2014, 11:29:04 AM »
So just about every user on the forum is a theist, since they know Me. What's that? I'm not a god? How do you know, if you don't know what you call the "real" god?
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #44 on: February 18, 2014, 11:37:19 AM »
I've read through this thread.

I don't know what the eff you're trying to say.

Basically, Jesuis is saying that colorless green ideas do, in fact, sleep furiously.  And he knows this because of the mome raths.
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Offline Xero-Kill

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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #45 on: February 18, 2014, 11:44:17 AM »
The only real problem is Jesuis taking words that already have very clear definitions and then trying to redefine them.

the·ism  [thee-iz-uhm][1]

noun
1.the belief in one God as the creator and ruler of the universe, without rejection of revelation (distinguished from deism ).
2.belief in the existence of a god or gods (opposed to atheism ).

Theism, by its definition, involves belief.

be·lief  [bih-leef][2]

noun
1.something believed; an opinion or conviction: a belief that the earth is flat.
2.confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof: a statement unworthy of belief.
3.confidence; faith; trust: a child's belief in his parents.
4.a religious tenet or tenets; religious creed or faith: the Christian belief.

It has been clearly stated that theism and its counterpoint, atheism, are systems regarding BELIEF, by definition. You don't get to redefine words to suit your own ego. If you get to redefine terms then so do we, and then there is no capacity for understanding because who knows what anyone is talking about at that point. You said the word "fish" but you were describing a four-legged animal with fur, and loud bark. Even in my example, I can only make it BECAUSE you understand the words that form the thought. We have to agree on what "describing" means, "four" means, "animal" means... every single word in that sentence must be understood and agreed upon before ANYTHING else can be accomplished.

What you are prattling on about is gnosticism (small g), which is defined as:

gnos·tic  [nos-tik][3]

adjective Also, gnos·ti·cal.
1.pertaining to knowledge.
2.possessing knowledge, especially esoteric knowledge of spiritual matters.
3.( initial capital letter ) pertaining to or characteristic of the Gnostics.

noun
4.( initial capital letter ) a member of any of certain sects among the early Christians who claimed to have superior knowledge of spiritual matters, and explained the world as created by powers or agencies arising as emanations from the Godhead.

This is why no one will just blindly accept your bumbling and cliched attempt at profundity. It is flat out, full stop, and in every conceivable way... wrong, not true, in error, and mistaken. A VERY common and childish tactic of the believer is to try redefining terms, as you have tried here, and it never works because most of us passed 2nd grade English. It is also the tactic of believers to attempt these sort of pseudo-clever one-liners that, on the surface of things, sound brilliant, but with even the smallest shred of incredulity it all breaks down into nothing but feel-good platitudes that are often more insulting than inspiring.
 1. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/theism?s=t
 2. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/belief?s=t
 3. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/gnostic?s=t
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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #46 on: February 18, 2014, 11:46:45 AM »
The only real problem is Jesuis taking words that already have very clear definitions and then trying to redefine them.

Ah, see, but the dictionary is flawed because definitions change, which is why you atheists put your faith into it... or something.
The truth is Jesuis knows he can't win an argument, so he redefines words in a bad attempt to win at something.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #47 on: February 18, 2014, 11:52:13 AM »
The Believer is a mental problem or a dictionary cock up.  If we say an atheist believes there is no God we have him down as a believer of sorts.
If theists could demonstrate their god(s), then it would be a moot point.

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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #48 on: February 18, 2014, 12:07:35 PM »
Quote from: Jesuis
There is no hidden agenda in this statement of truth - they either know because they do the practice or they are lying.
Since they also practice truth and the establishing of truths we have nothing too loose - we do not lie about what we know do we?
Man can only seek truth were there is truth to seek. It cannot be found in the subjective. Therefore if we are using that as our basis, then what we think we know is incorrect, and as such not known at all.
You first have to establish that the truth you claim is in fact a truth, and not merely your opinion.
You have yet to do that, so the burden is yours. (Remember it is nonsensical to ask for proof of non-existence.)
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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #49 on: February 18, 2014, 01:34:45 PM »
There is no Theist who used to be a theist.
One either knows or they don't. 
Any other is not a theist.  There is no wriggle room in knowing and not knowing.

Evidence? Your opinion means nothing unless you can back it up with evidence. Saying it doesn't make it true. No matter what you say.

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Re: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« Reply #50 on: February 18, 2014, 02:46:11 PM »
I have to admit, I am totally lost in this thread and have been from the first post.  It is not that I think Jesuis is wrong (though on some of the finer points, I think he might be).  It is that I have no idea what he is trying to say.


Jesuis, what is your native language?  I'm going to guess Hindi, possibly Gujarati, because when I read your posts I feel confused in the same way as when I talk to Indian people. 

Hindi or Martian.  That is my guess. 
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Re: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« Reply #51 on: February 18, 2014, 02:51:44 PM »
<snip>
when I read your posts I feel confused in the same way as when I talk to Indian people. 

Try having to listen to them in real-time while having your grade depend on how well you understand them. Not kidding. Why can't they get people who speak clearly?
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

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Re: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« Reply #52 on: February 18, 2014, 03:29:34 PM »
I have to admit, I am totally lost in this thread and have been from the first post.  It is not that I think Jesuis is wrong (though on some of the finer points, I think he might be).  It is that I have no idea what he is trying to say.


Jesuis, what is your native language?  I'm going to guess Hindi, possibly Gujarati, because when I read your posts I feel confused in the same way as when I talk to Indian people. 

Hindi or Martian.  That is my guess. 

His main problems are is that he states things as facts and not opinions and since most of us are atheists he expects us to agree with him. He also states everyone is an atheist which is true to a point and not true to other points but since we're atheists we all must only take the science approach to everything when one has nothing to do with the other. But he thinks the two are mutually conclusive therefore when we don't agree with his "hypothesis" then we are not holding true to our atheism.

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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #53 on: February 18, 2014, 03:44:21 PM »
The Believer is a mental problem or a dictionary cock up.  If we say an atheist believes there is no God we have him down as a believer of sorts.
If theists could demonstrate their god(s), then it would be a moot point.

Exactly correct, this whole thread took place cause Mr Jesuis can't prove his God is real.
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Offline Nam

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Re: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« Reply #54 on: February 18, 2014, 03:45:59 PM »
The Believer is a mental problem or a dictionary cock up.  If we say an atheist believes there is no God we have him down as a believer of sorts.
If theists could demonstrate their god(s), then it would be a moot point.

Exactly correct, this whole thread took place cause Mr Jesuis can'y prove his God is real.

He claims he's an atheist since he doesn't "know" his god.

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Re: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« Reply #55 on: February 18, 2014, 03:48:23 PM »
He claims he's an atheist since he doesn't "know" his god.

Yet somehow knows enough to know it's real and what it wants. If he's not a theist by belief, he's one by contradictory speech.

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Offline mrbiscoop

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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #56 on: February 18, 2014, 04:13:09 PM »
Are you on drugs?

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Offline Jesuis

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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #57 on: February 18, 2014, 06:10:00 PM »
Obviously you are missing the logic of the proposal. 
Theists know for a long time now and atheists have never known. That has always been the case.
Once these two people are honest about what they know we can move forward scientifically.

I think that using your definition of theist, there is no such thing as a theist. (If there is no God).

However, there are plenty of people who think they know God, but really don't.

There is also a possibility for an atheist to think he doesn't know God, when he actually does (if there is a God), which would make that atheist a theist, by your definition.
But Moses, Jesus, Nanak, Buddha, Mahavira and many more and their real followers who practiced the method taught - would disagree with you.

My definition would require the atheist scientist to take up the challenge if he was scientifically minded and prove them either right or wrong.

There is no hidden agenda in this statement of truth - they either know because they do the practice or they are lying.
Since they also practice truth and the establishing of truths we have nothing too loose - we do not lie about what we know do we?

You are talking twaddle, Jesuis! Sorry and that, but it's true.

Look, Add Homonym corrected the definition of the theist to people who think they know god. You can hardly argue with that given that there is no evidence available of the existence of god. The people you quote did, truly, believe there was a god but even true belief and devotion doesn't magic a god into existence if there isn't one there.

Now what are you talking about attaching 'atheist' and 'scientist' together? Religious belief and science are opposite poles when it comes to knowledge. Science require a hypothesis, testing and then being ripped apart by other scientists until the hypothesis actually matches the facts. That is years of work in many cases - look at the Higgs bosun; predicted by Peter Higgs in 1964 and only discovered in 2013!

Religion works the other way round. One of a few leaders juts tell people what to believe and they have to go away and do it. No working the facts - no checking data - just follow the orders of the leader.The antithesis of good science really.
I am not talking about religion or belief. 
I am talking about the science of the theists.
Theist proposes a Hypothesis - there is a God. They are not forcing you to believe in them. If you want to undertake the path to truth.
They prescribe a Method:- Blessed are the pure at heart for they shall see God.
Conclusion : Once the mind of the faithful is purified from negativity and belief they will know God. And they have discovered the same self evident truths.
Only an atheist can undertake this truth finding process of the self. Both Atheists and Theists do not have beliefs. We have the perfect group for establishing the truth once and for all in a scientific way. "To thine own self be true". They want us to be without belief they have a method and they have the science. It has always been so with the theists. Without the theist it is all blind faith or belief. You need the theist and the perfect student for the seekers of truth.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2014, 06:17:37 PM by Jesuis »
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.