Author Topic: "Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.  (Read 8765 times)

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Offline Jesuis

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"Theists know God, Atheist don't" is a fact.
« on: February 16, 2014, 09:05:29 PM »
In common parlance both atheists and theists are believers.

What's worst, - the logic of two believers fighting each other is stupid inhumane plan. Yet it happens repeatedly in human history.

Ref: Muslims fighting Christians. Christians fighting Jews,  Muslims fighting Hindus. Hinds fighting Buddhists and eventually Atheists soon to be fighting Theists.

The words need to be redefined before negative thinking becomes so great that wars start. I call these happening amongst believers a form of Cognitive Dissonance.

I suspect now both sides hates me but it is visionary.

Can you accept this as a statement of truth so we can build a form of unity an a progression?

« Last Edit: February 18, 2014, 02:40:08 PM by screwtape »
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2014, 09:30:16 PM »
I don't agree that atheists and theists are both believers (assuming you mean religious believers, it really is hard to tell what you mean sometimes).

However, I can agree that it's stupid to fight because of religious beliefs.  I think there have been more deaths due to fighting over religious beliefs than anything save only disease, and I'm not entirely sure about that.

Offline Nam

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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2014, 12:55:58 AM »
In common parlance both atheists and theists are believers.

What's worst, - the logic of two believers fighting each other is stupid inhumane plan. Yet it happens repeatedly in human history.

Ref: Muslims fighting Christians. Christians fighting Jews,  Muslims fighting Hindus. Hinds fighting Buddhists and eventually Atheists soon to be fighting Theists.

The words need to be redefined before negative thinking becomes so great that wars start. I call these happening amongst believers a form of Cognitive Dissonance.

I suspect now both sides hates me but it is visionary.

Can you accept this as a statement of truth so we can build a form of unity an a progression?



I don't believe in trolls. Can't hate something I don't believe in.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2014, 01:36:20 AM »
I have no problem with religious believers, as long as they aren't shooting at me because of our differences.

I have no problem with religious believers, and am very willing to accept them, as long as they are not trying to convert or condemner control me for not agreeing with them.

And as long as they aren't killing their own children with their myths. I have to draw that line too.

When people use their own beliefs to dissect their own humanity, and use their own beliefs to justify horror at any level, then lines must be drawn.

If we could all disagree that flying planes into buildings because we disagree is patently ridiculous, and that all lesser but similarly motivated crimes against humanity are also ridiculous, tomorrow would be a lot better than today.
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Offline Jesuis

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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2014, 01:47:50 AM »
I don't agree that atheists and theists are both believers (assuming you mean religious believers, it really is hard to tell what you mean sometimes).

However, I can agree that it's stupid to fight because of religious beliefs.  I think there have been more deaths due to fighting over religious beliefs than anything save only disease, and I'm not entirely sure about that.

The Believer is a mental problem or a dictionary cock up.  If we say an atheist believes there is no God we have him down as a believer of sorts.
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2014, 01:53:32 AM »
^I usually call that sort of thing a worldview, actually.  Whether atheism qualifies as an actual belief or not, it is a worldview, and people do act based on the way they see the world.  Religious believers see it differently from atheists, and I will grant that it's possible for them to fight with atheists over differences in a worldview, humans being humans.

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2014, 02:08:24 AM »
I don't agree that atheists and theists are both believers (assuming you mean religious believers, it really is hard to tell what you mean sometimes).

However, I can agree that it's stupid to fight because of religious beliefs.  I think there have been more deaths due to fighting over religious beliefs than anything save only disease, and I'm not entirely sure about that.

The Believer is a mental problem or a dictionary cock up.  If we say an atheist believes there is no God we have him down as a believer of sorts.

We atheists are not making positive claims (My god is the right god, and the rest of you are wrong), so our stance does not seem to involve believing something unseeable, or whatever. We assume that type of something isn't. But this is all semantics. Except for the part where it irks us atheists to tell us that we believe something in this regard. There is no similarity between the process of being a religious person and the process for not being one.

It is best to not insist that atheists believe something too. It will immediately derail the thread.
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Offline bertatberts

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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2014, 04:11:44 AM »
If we say an atheist believes there is no God we have him down as a believer of sorts.
You are entitled to assume that, but you would be wrong.
An atheist lacks belief in the claims of a god existence, however an atheist does not believe no god exists as he god never know if no god existed.
Unless you or the atheist could look under every nook and granny throughout the entire universe, you and he could never know. So the atheist errs on the side of caution, and only disputes your claims that a god exists, the onus is and will always remain yours, you believe a god exists therefore you have the burden to prove it does.

And to your thread title you could not possibly know god, as said you have the burden of prove and you have yet to show that you have done that. So you are as much a don't as an atheist, you just use wishful think rather than critical thinking in you everyday life.
We theists have no evidence for our beliefs. So no amount of rational evidence will dissuade us from those beliefs. - JCisall

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Offline wheels5894

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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2014, 06:25:48 AM »
I still can't get over how people have atheists marked down as 'believers'. We are not. We just don't believe. Christians are atheists when it comes to all but one of the gods ever invented by humans. So are Muslims and so on. Atheists believe in one less god. Why is that hard to grasp?

As to world-views - well atheism doesn't have a world-view any more than a non-stamp collector has a world-view. Atheists just don't see evidence for a god and thus do not believe or follow any god's supposed instruction book. That's it.

How does that seem to you, Jesuis?
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Offline Boots

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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2014, 09:21:35 AM »
I don't agree that atheists and theists are both believers (assuming you mean religious believers, it really is hard to tell what you mean sometimes).

However, I can agree that it's stupid to fight because of religious beliefs.  I think there have been more deaths due to fighting over religious beliefs than anything save only disease, and I'm not entirely sure about that.

The Believer is a mental problem or a dictionary cock up.  If we say an atheist believes there is no God we have him down as a believer of sorts.

Logical fallacy: equivocation.  Equating "lack of belief" to "belief" is incorrect.
It's one of the reasons I'm an atheist today.  I decided to take my religion seriously, and that's when it started to fall apart for me.
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2014, 10:49:51 AM »
The Believer is a mental problem or a dictionary cock up.  If we say an atheist believes there is no God we have him down as a believer of sorts.

The Believer is a semi-monthly publication by McSweeney's.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2014, 11:18:20 AM »
In common parlance both atheists and theists are believers.
I think this is your problem. As jaimehlers suggests, your use of English is either careless or deceptive.

You have stated that atheists are believers but you have not stated in what they believe and, at the same time you seem to have used the word "believer" in two definitions

1. "Believer" - a religious person who has a belief that some form of the supernatural exists as in "I am a believer so I go to the mosque five times a day."
2. "Believer" - as in "I am a believer in [the concept of] free-speech."

The first does not "believe in a concept", they believe in existence.

Psychologically, it is amazing what language can do. I am sure that you did not see the difference because you have never considered it as, for you "Belief" and the existence of a deity are self-evidently obvious and concern the same thing.

The language of religion is designed to bind the faithful together - it is similar with all autocratic regimes.

I hope this has helped.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2014, 11:20:15 AM by Graybeard »
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Jesuis

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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2014, 06:43:22 PM »
Theists do not believe there is a God either - they know there is a God. They lack belief just like we do.

The logical statement of respect would be "Theists know God Atheists don't. Where both know the truth they speak of.

This statement has everything in it where there is truth for both sides remember the same truths both theist and atheist lack belief.

To understand this wisdom
Religious folk were always converted out of the beliefs of their religion for the purpose of knowing God and that is what the theists were teaching everytime a new religion comes into existence.
No Christians before Jesus,
No Buddhists before Buddha
No Sikhs before Nanak. etc.
The theists were taking their followers out of the existing "belief" for the higher humane agenda. Especially to know God.

Theists know God and atheists don't is a statement of fact and we can build our humanity and humane interaction on it.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2014, 06:52:13 PM by Jesuis »
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline Jesuis

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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2014, 09:59:11 PM »
In common parlance both atheists and theists are believers.
I think this is your problem. As jaimehlers suggests, your use of English is either careless or deceptive.

You have stated that atheists are believers but you have not stated in what they believe and, at the same time you seem to have used the word "believer" in two definitions

1. "Believer" - a religious person who has a belief that some form of the supernatural exists as in "I am a believer so I go to the mosque five times a day."
2. "Believer" - as in "I am a believer in [the concept of] free-speech."

The first does not "believe in a concept", they believe in existence.

Psychologically, it is amazing what language can do. I am sure that you did not see the difference because you have never considered it as, for you "Belief" and the existence of a deity are self-evidently obvious and concern the same thing.

The language of religion is designed to bind the faithful together - it is similar with all autocratic regimes.

I hope this has helped.

 
You have not addressed the statement. "Theists know God and atheist do not".
 This statement has no words of belief in it. Why not?
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline Nam

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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2014, 10:15:11 PM »
Wouldn't your stupid saying be, "A deist knows god." since the focus of a theist has more to do with the religion wrapped around the god than the god itself?

That makes more sense, if there's any sense at all, and with you: there never is.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline Jesuis

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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2014, 11:04:50 PM »
I still can't get over how people have atheists marked down as 'believers'. We are not. We just don't believe.
Lets say these are all labels on humans. All humans have a belief of one thing or the other.

The words atheist and theist have come to mean things that is not true. Both these individuals have a knowledge relative to God. The atheists know there is no God correct? The theist also know there is a God. I have suggested with all due respect for each what they know truthfully to themselves - I am acknowledging this truth in the sentence "Theists know God and atheists don't".

Quote
Christians are atheists when it comes to all but one of the gods ever invented by humans. So are Muslims and so on. Atheists believe in one less god. Why is that hard to grasp?
That is a new meaning to atheism - not sure who supports it.
IMO it is correct because all humans do not know God except for the Theist.
Christians want to follow the teachings of Jesus - "Love thy neighbour as thyself"
Muslims want to follow the teachings of Muhammad "Peace be unto you"
Jews want to follow Moses "Thou shall not kill"
Same for Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs.
The teachings of the theists have a humane agenda.
Both the atheists and the theists want to free mankind from negative beliefs. Right?

Quote
As to world-views - well atheism doesn't have a world-view any more than a non-stamp collector has a world-view. Atheists just don't see evidence for a god and thus do not believe or follow any god's supposed instruction book. That's it.
The same goes for Theists. They are the way to the truth and the light. Not a book. Jesus only took 12 disciples. The rest is about belief.
That is why I proposed  a more humane way forward. Why wont you support the statement "Theists know God and atheists do not"?

Quote
How does that seem to you, Jesuis?
Well I need a reason as to why you think the statement is wrong.
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline Jesuis

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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2014, 11:10:28 PM »
Wouldn't your stupid saying be, "A deist knows god." since the focus of a theist has more to do with the religion wrapped around the god than the god itself?

That makes more sense, if there's any sense at all, and with you: there never is.

-Nam
In a world of duality we need to address the truths of the opposites to bring peace where there is chaos.
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline Emily

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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2014, 11:12:49 PM »
Why wont you support the statement "Theists know God and atheists do not"?

Quote
How does that seem to you, Jesuis?
Well I need a reason as to why you think the statement is wrong.

Probably because supporting such a statement an atheist would be admitting that there is a god, but chooses not to follow that god, when that's not at all the meaning of atheism.
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Offline Jesuis

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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2014, 11:25:39 PM »
Why wont you support the statement "Theists know God and atheists do not"?

Quote
How does that seem to you, Jesuis?
Well I need a reason as to why you think the statement is wrong.

Probably because supporting such a statement an atheist would be admitting that there is a god, but chooses not to follow that god, when that's not at all the meaning of atheism.
You see theists are the same as atheist. Both do not have beliefs. This could be a problem for believers. But it is a statement of fact and truth for both.
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline Nam

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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #19 on: February 17, 2014, 11:30:25 PM »
Wouldn't your stupid saying be, "A deist knows god." since the focus of a theist has more to do with the religion wrapped around the god than the god itself?

That makes more sense, if there's any sense at all, and with you: there never is.

-Nam
In a world of duality we need to address the truths of the opposites to bring peace where there is chaos.

Are you on drugs?

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline Nam

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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #20 on: February 17, 2014, 11:31:19 PM »
Why wont you support the statement "Theists know God and atheists do not"?

Quote
How does that seem to you, Jesuis?
Well I need a reason as to why you think the statement is wrong.

Probably because supporting such a statement an atheist would be admitting that there is a god, but chooses not to follow that god, when that's not at all the meaning of atheism.
You see theists are the same as atheist. Both do not have beliefs. This could be a problem for believers. But it is a statement of fact and truth for both.

Because you say so.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline Jesuis

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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #21 on: February 17, 2014, 11:40:30 PM »
Because you say so.
-Nam
You can do better than that.
Why won't you support the statement "Theists know God and atheists don't" Both have no beliefs. Is there a belief problem?
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline Jesuis

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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #22 on: February 17, 2014, 11:42:16 PM »
Are you on drugs?

-Nam
Come on Nam you are better than that.
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline Nam

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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #23 on: February 17, 2014, 11:55:14 PM »
Because you say so.
-Nam
You can do better than that.
Why won't you support the statement "Theists know God and atheists don't" Both have no beliefs. Is there a belief problem?

This is the basic meaning of Belief[1]: "acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists."

So, you're saying that theists don't accept that the statement made by the Bible/Quran/ Tanakh/Torah etc., is true, or that any of it exists? If you say, "yes" to that then it is how YOU define/see things not how the majority do, based on the definition which can be found in variants in other dictionaries that support the definition.

You're attempting (and failing) for us to agree with your definitions so your validation of being right (which you already believe) is supported by us.

Ain't gonna happen.

-Nam
 1. according to Google
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline Nam

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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #24 on: February 17, 2014, 11:56:46 PM »
Are you on drugs?

-Nam
Come on Nam you are better than that.

It's an honest question. Why no emoticon. Are you on drugs?

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline Jesuis

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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #25 on: February 18, 2014, 01:02:09 AM »
Because you say so.
-Nam
You can do better than that.
Why won't you support the statement "Theists know God and atheists don't" Both have no beliefs. Is there a belief problem?

This is the basic meaning of Belief[1]: "acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists."

So, you're saying that theists don't accept that the statement made by the Bible/Quran/ Tanakh/Torah etc., is true, or that any of it exists? If you say, "yes" to that then it is how YOU define/see things not how the majority do, based on the definition which can be found in variants in other dictionaries that support the definition.

You're attempting (and failing) for us to agree with your definitions so your validation of being right (which you already believe) is supported by us.

Ain't gonna happen.

-Nam
 1. according to Google
That's called putting words in my mouth that I have not said.
I said "Theists know God and Atheists don't"

Why wont you support this?  Is what I am asking.

I am not talking about "belief" it does not recognize anyone's desire to put or use the words belief in it.

1. IMO This statement says exactly what you say -- there is no God - you know that. The statement acknowledges your truth.
2. The statement also says exactly what Theists say -- there is a God. They know that and is also their truth.

It has mutual respect for everyone who has no beliefs.
So what is the problem that causes you so much turmoil. We love and respect each other in this statement something you have strive for for so long. This is your opportunity.

The statement contains no beliefs and requires your acceptance because you are an honest truthful man to yourself and respects others who know what they know. Why create belief where none exists? Both atheists and theists want the truth for all. Why wont you accept such a humane agenda? We can build a path for humanity out of belief. Isn't that what you want?
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline Jesuis

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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #26 on: February 18, 2014, 01:03:26 AM »
Are you on drugs?

-Nam
Come on Nam you are better than that.

It's an honest question. Why no emoticon. Are you on drugs?

-Nam
No
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline Nam

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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #27 on: February 18, 2014, 02:27:50 AM »
Jesuis,

Wrong. I never put words in your mouth. Your lack of understanding of that cliché rests on you, not me. I posed a query based on what you state. If my query is incorrect then it is up to you to show how it is not throw a rock and play victim. You're not a victim but of your own unintelligent mind attempting to think you're right because you say you are.

Quote
Why wont you support this?  Is what I am asking.

Because it's nonsensical. A theist creates the religion around the god they also create. It's irrelevant whether (hypothetically) that god existed before their religion, they recreated it to suit their religion. Which is why I inserted "deists" whose whole "religion" is "god".

You're saying that theists have no beliefs (the same as atheists) because they don't know god. I am saying, by definition, they do have beliefs based on the fact they know their god that they worship around their religion.

Definition of theist/m[1]: "belief in the existence of a god or gods, esp. belief in one god as creator of the universe, intervening in it and sustaining a personal relation to his creatures."

Atheist/m is defined as[2]: "disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods."

They are different. You're saying they're the same because in YOUR OPINION theists can't know what is defined as God[3]: "the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being." based on the fact it's a higher being; they can't know something they are beneath, or not at the same level. But theists create the religion, create the god, therefore they do know their god.

And atheists believe they are fictional. So, you can't equate the two (a/theism) as being the same. Theists aren't atheists just because atheists don't believe in the god/s. Atheists aren't theists because theism is dictated by canon and a godhead.

Quote
We can build a path for humanity out of belief. Isn't that what you want?

Again: nonsensical.

-Nam
 1. Google
 2. Google
 3. Google
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline Bereft_of_Faith

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Re: Theists know God Atheist don't is a fact.
« Reply #28 on: February 18, 2014, 02:36:08 AM »
Jesuis:  This is a pile of crap.  You're playing word games.

You said:  "I said "Theists know God and Atheists don't"".  Your statement is intentionally ambiguous, and by now, you are fully aware of that.

Either you're saying...
a) Theists know all ABOUT god, who he is, what he wants etc 
                                     OR
b) Theists know that there IS a god; that he exists.

My response to example a) would be:  No they don't know about god.  They think they do.  Proof?  They disagree with each other about what they think they know, sometimes to the point of bloodshed. 

My response to example b) would be:  No, god doesn't exist.  You can't expect atheists to agree with your statement when they have made the determination that god does not exist.

Please stop this nonsense.  It's tiresome and NO ONE HERE is going to give you what you want.