Author Topic: A question for our fundamentalist buddies: Why genes?  (Read 374 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online ParkingPlaces

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6367
  • Darwins +750/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Hide and Seek World Champion since 1958!
A question for our fundamentalist buddies: Why genes?
« on: February 14, 2014, 05:12:07 PM »
The recent "debate" between Ham and Nye got me to thinking. Everyone concedes that we have genes and that they carry information from generation to generation. And most understand that flaws and/or changes in genes cause mutations that lead to birth defects and other health problems. So my question is this.

If a perfect god created a perfect world (pre Evie and the tree incident), why did said god include genetic variation in the formula for life? If he was already doing a perfect job making cheetahs and mosquitos and rats and sloths and dandelions, why did he build in to each a structure that can lead to change? Why do some people in Portugal (and a few other places) have six fingers instead of five? Why have some single celled organisms been able to adapt to living in jet fuel tanks? Why were Tibetans and others who live at high altitudes able to adjust, genetically, to such extremes? Sickle cell anemia is a genetic mutation that allows people to live in areas infested with sleeping sickness without getting it. It is a genetic variation. It has great disadvantages in a world where people live to be over 30, but up until then, if one lives in equatorial Africa, it is a great advantage. Why?

If this god guy was involved, how is such variation possible. The dude picks up a hand full of dirt, whips out a guy in his likeness, and then says "Let there be variability"? Brown eyes, blue eyes, brown skin, white skin, tall, short, big noses, small noses, blonde hair, red hair. Why?

Here we have a mechanism which, if god induced, makes it look like things evolved, and he doesn't bother mentioning either that he did it or why, and now we have people willing to kill each other over disagreements on the issue. Even before Eve does the dirty deed, he builds in the mechanisms necessary for punishing us for being sinners. Why? (I say this because I've been told by some that babies born with birth defects happen to punish their sinning parents)

Being prescient and being an idiot need not be synonymous. If the guy is real, he's screwing with us, and if he isn't, everyone who thinks otherwise is screwing with us. Either way, we're screwed. But in the meantime, hey believers, why did your god put the mechanism of genetic variation into living things when he presumably made everything perfect in the first place?

Can't your lord do anything right?
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 12209
  • Darwins +658/-28
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
Re: A question for our fundamentalist buddies: Why genes?
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2014, 10:50:39 PM »

If a perfect god created a perfect world (pre Evie and the tree incident), why did said god include genetic variation in the formula for life?

He didn't.  That was a result of degraded DNA which happened because of sin.  Sheesh!  What are you, an idjit, or something?



Links:
Rules
Guides & Tutorials

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Online ParkingPlaces

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6367
  • Darwins +750/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Hide and Seek World Champion since 1958!
Re: A question for our fundamentalist buddies: Why genes?
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2014, 11:36:17 PM »

If a perfect god created a perfect world (pre Evie and the tree incident), why did said god include genetic variation in the formula for life?

He didn't.  That was a result of degraded DNA which happened because of sin.  Sheesh!  What are you, an idjit, or something?

My bold. Yes, I am an idjit. That part is a given. But how did he know to make DNA that was degradable by sin? And if sin degrades DNA, shouldn't it all be gone by now?

A really really really good god would have made DNA that was immutable, and written a book that was irrefutable, and made all my girl friends beautiful. And he wouldn't have a coded for republicans or Miley Cyrus.

So this one, if real, is also an idjit.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 12209
  • Darwins +658/-28
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
Re: A question for our fundamentalist buddies: Why genes?
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2014, 12:58:37 PM »
how did he know to make DNA that was degradable by sin?

It's as if you've never talked to a xian.  God knows everything.  That's why he has a perfect plan. 


And if sin degrades DNA, shouldn't it all be gone by now?

No.  It does not decompose.  It just deviates from the original perfection.  Adam and Eve were perfect.  Sin altered them and the entire universe.  As a result their kids did not have beautiful, flowing blond hair, blue eyes, and fair skin, like A&E did.  Their children were swarthy and grotesque, like Greeks or Eye-talians.[1]

A really really really good god would have made DNA that was immutable,

It was, but the wages of sin is death.  And sin is highly corrosive.  So when their DNA was dipped in sin, it got all mangled up.

and written a book that was irrefutable,

He did - it's called the bible.  Duh.


and made all my girl friends beautiful.

Yeah right.  Next you'll say he should heal amputees.

And he wouldn't have a coded for republicans or Miley Cyrus.

Both explained by sin.

 1. please don't kill me.  This is parody, for chrissakes!
« Last Edit: February 15, 2014, 09:06:23 PM by screwtape »
Links:
Rules
Guides & Tutorials

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Online Graybeard

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6619
  • Darwins +523/-19
  • Gender: Male
  • Is this going somewhere?
Re: A question for our fundamentalist buddies: Why genes?
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2014, 03:13:19 PM »

If a perfect god created a perfect world (pre Evie and the tree incident), why did said god include genetic variation in the formula for life?
Male and female. Also He creates people with different purposes in mind (Romans 9)

Quote
why did he build in to each a structure that can lead to change?
He knew how each rat and cockroach would impinge upon Man’s journey to Salvation. Mankind’s response determines his spirituality.
Quote
Why do some people in Portugal (and a few other places) have six fingers instead of five?
To mark them out as the Minions of Satan
Quote
Why have some single celled organisms been able to adapt to living in jet fuel tanks?
Why not? What’s not to like?
Quote
Why were Tibetans and others who live at high altitudes able to adjust, genetically, to such extremes?
They didn’t, that is how God made them.
Quote
Sickle cell anemia is a genetic mutation that allows people to live in areas infested with sleeping sickness without getting it. It is a genetic variation. It has great disadvantages in a world where people live to be over 30, but up until then, if one lives in equatorial Africa, it is a great advantage. Why?
So that they may be fruitful without having to burden us in old age and also see “The curse of Ham.”

Quote
If this god guy was involved, how is such variation possible.
With the Lord, all is possible.
Quote
The dude picks up a hand full of dirt, whips out a guy in his likeness, and then says "Let there be variability"? Brown eyes, blue eyes, brown skin, white skin, tall, short, big noses, small noses, blonde hair, red hair. Why?
If everyone looked like you… well… let’s not go down that road. Just let us say that people who look stranger, often are strange and you know who to avoid. If we were all the same, women might “lie with the wrong man!”

Quote
Here we have a mechanism which, if god induced, makes it look like things evolved, and he doesn't bother mentioning either that he did it or why,
Do you really think that God needs to explain ANYTHING!!!!
Quote
and now we have people willing to kill each other over disagreements on the issue.
And we also have lesbians! This is mankind’s fault for not following The Word of The Lord.
Quote
Even before Eve does the dirty deed, he builds in the mechanisms necessary for punishing us for being sinners. Why?
One word “Forethought”
Quote
(I say this because I've been told by some that babies born with birth defects happen to punish their sinning parents)
At last! Some Biblical science! Thank you. Please use the attached form to tithe.

Quote
Being prescient and being an idiot need not be synonymous. If the guy is real, he's screwing with us, and if he isn't, everyone who thinks otherwise is screwing with us.
Ha! There you go “Oooo I don’t understand so I’ll make something up!"
Quote
Either way, we're screwed.
Not with Jesus. Jesus Saves!

Quote
But in the meantime, hey believers, why did your god put the mechanism of genetic variation into living things when he presumably made everything perfect in the first place?
So, you do not believe that putting in genetic variation was right.

OK PP, what would you have done?

And whilst you're answering please stand clear of other people to give God a clear shot with a thunderbolt.


« Last Edit: February 15, 2014, 03:16:39 PM by Graybeard »
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Online ParkingPlaces

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6367
  • Darwins +750/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Hide and Seek World Champion since 1958!
Re: A question for our fundamentalist buddies: Why genes?
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2014, 03:24:10 PM »
Okay, I ge tit now. I just needed wise counsel and time to put everything in proper perspective.

I was thinking, obviously erroneously, that a smart god would use some method of biological reproduction that always batted a thousand, and hence, by implication, was unchangeable. So as to prevent variation, which seemed, to me, as a naïve waif, somewhat unacceptable in a perfect world. And I was guessing that, since he did indeed use a method that not only allows for variation, but requires it, that perhaps he was not involved and instead some natural process, sans a**holes on high, created the methods we currently employ. Silly me.

I guess he knew all along that a)he wasn't very good at this world-building crap, b)that we would screw up and that he could then go all postal on our butts, and c)he wasn't omnipotent but that he couldn't let us know that.

You know, if I'd had even one pretty amputee girlfriend, I'd probably never have asked this question. Funny how little things can make such a huge difference

But I'm standing at attention and saluting your insights, screwtape. From now on I promise never again to questions either god or you.

This is parody too (except for my lifelong indebtedness to screwtape, as per forum rules), but I'm too lazy to use footnotes.  ;D

P.S. Now that Graybeard has also responded, I now know what it feels like to get piled on by other forum members. This would be fun but I've no ability to respond without using at least three sentences, let alone without a point to make. I'll have to work on that.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Online ParkingPlaces

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6367
  • Darwins +750/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Hide and Seek World Champion since 1958!
Re: A question for our fundamentalist buddies: Why genes?
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2014, 03:27:52 PM »

If a perfect god created a perfect world (pre Evie and the tree incident), why did said god include genetic variation in the formula for life?
Male and female. Also He creates people with different purposes in mind (Romans 9)

Quote
why did he build in to each a structure that can lead to change?
He knew how each rat and cockroach would impinge upon Man’s journey to Salvation. Mankind’s response determines his spirituality.
Quote
Why do some people in Portugal (and a few other places) have six fingers instead of five?
To mark them out as the Minions of Satan
Quote
Why have some single celled organisms been able to adapt to living in jet fuel tanks?
Why not? What’s not to like?
Quote
Why were Tibetans and others who live at high altitudes able to adjust, genetically, to such extremes?
They didn’t, that is how God made them.
Quote
Sickle cell anemia is a genetic mutation that allows people to live in areas infested with sleeping sickness without getting it. It is a genetic variation. It has great disadvantages in a world where people live to be over 30, but up until then, if one lives in equatorial Africa, it is a great advantage. Why?
So that they may be fruitful without having to burden us in old age and also see “The curse of Ham.”

Quote
If this god guy was involved, how is such variation possible.
With the Lord, all is possible.
Quote
The dude picks up a hand full of dirt, whips out a guy in his likeness, and then says "Let there be variability"? Brown eyes, blue eyes, brown skin, white skin, tall, short, big noses, small noses, blonde hair, red hair. Why?
If everyone looked like you… well… let’s not go down that road. Just let us say that people who look stranger, often are strange and you know who to avoid. If we were all the same, women might “lie with the wrong man!”

Quote
Here we have a mechanism which, if god induced, makes it look like things evolved, and he doesn't bother mentioning either that he did it or why,
Do you really think that God needs to explain ANYTHING!!!!
Quote
and now we have people willing to kill each other over disagreements on the issue.
And we also have lesbians! This is mankind’s fault for not following The Word of The Lord.
Quote
Even before Eve does the dirty deed, he builds in the mechanisms necessary for punishing us for being sinners. Why?
One word “Forethought”
Quote
(I say this because I've been told by some that babies born with birth defects happen to punish their sinning parents)
At last! Some Biblical science! Thank you. Please use the attached form to tithe.

Quote
Being prescient and being an idiot need not be synonymous. If the guy is real, he's screwing with us, and if he isn't, everyone who thinks otherwise is screwing with us.
Ha! There you go “Oooo I don’t understand so I’ll make something up!"
Quote
Either way, we're screwed.
Not with Jesus. Jesus Saves!

Quote
But in the meantime, hey believers, why did your god put the mechanism of genetic variation into living things when he presumably made everything perfect in the first place?
So, you do not believe that putting in genetic variation was right.

OK PP, what would you have done?

And whilst you're answering please stand clear of other people to give God a clear shot with a thunderbolt.

This is my first attempt at responding to a long and thoughtful post without actually reading the damn thing. Tell me if I'm doing it right.

Yea, Graybeard, but what about all the human footprints found near outdoor gun shows? They can't be over 6,000 years old. How do you explain them? Huh?

Added: Oops. forgot which side I was on. So suddenly I'm out of dumb questions. Disregard, GB. Give me more time to make stuff up.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2014, 03:31:04 PM by ParkingPlaces »
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Online ParkingPlaces

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6367
  • Darwins +750/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Hide and Seek World Champion since 1958!
Re: A question for our fundamentalist buddies: Why genes?
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2014, 03:33:34 PM »
Okay, a new try on the Graybeard thingy,

Yea, but, sputter, sputter, god can't be real because I still get junk mail, and a god who loved me wouldn't let that happen. So there!
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Online Graybeard

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6619
  • Darwins +523/-19
  • Gender: Male
  • Is this going somewhere?
Re: A question for our fundamentalist buddies: Why genes?
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2014, 03:59:24 PM »
Okay, a new try on the Graybeard thingy,

Yea, but, sputter, sputter, god can't be real because I still get junk mail, and a god who loved me wouldn't let that happen. So there!
Normally, you would be blind or lame, but, fortunately, your parents only committed minor sins after they accepted Jesus. For this, God has directed a minor demon to send you junk mail.
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Online ParkingPlaces

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6367
  • Darwins +750/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Hide and Seek World Champion since 1958!
Re: A question for our fundamentalist buddies: Why genes?
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2014, 04:23:44 PM »
Okay, a new try on the Graybeard thingy,

Yea, but, sputter, sputter, god can't be real because I still get junk mail, and a god who loved me wouldn't let that happen. So there!
Normally, you would be blind or lame, but, fortunately, your parents only committed minor sins after they accepted Jesus. For this, God has directed a minor demon to send you junk mail.

Ah, that god of yours has answers for everything. If I start jaywalking, will that let my computer get infected by bots? I want something cool to happen to me. Enough with the junk mail.

P.S. I have a Mac. Should I go to the dark side and buy a Windows machine? Will that improve my chances?

And is the fact that I rent 19 boxes at the post office part of my problem?

Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Online Graybeard

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6619
  • Darwins +523/-19
  • Gender: Male
  • Is this going somewhere?
Re: A question for our fundamentalist buddies: Why genes?
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2014, 07:03:06 PM »
Ah, that god of yours has answers for everything.
Indeed, He is all-knowing, all present and all-powerful: you are seeing how easy it is to believe.
Quote
If I start jaywalking, will that let my computer get infected by bots?
No, but if you condone your parents' jaywalking, then this is a real possibility.
Quote
P.S. I have a Mac.
Macs are strongly associated with gaydom. You know, men who are "good with colours." I fear it may be too late for you. Do you find that there are no parking places left when you go out? Do you sometimes forget something when you go to the supermarket? Has something unfortunate happened to you or someone you know within the past year?

These things are the work of minor demons. God is not punishing you: He is allowing you to feel His Absence[1]

Quote
Should I go to the dark side and buy a Windows machine? Will that improve my chances?
Yes and Yes. Windows strengthens the character by correcting you with incomprehensible error messages so that you will cry out "God help me!" This is the first step to accepting The Warm Blood of The Lamb of God.

And sprinkle that Mac with Holy Water and send it to me. I will exorcise it for a reasonable "love donation[2]".

Quote
And is the fact that I rent 19 boxes at the post office part of my problem?
All boxes are Godly:

2Ki:9:3: Then take the box of oil, and pour it on his head, and say, Thus saith the LORD, I have anointed thee king over Israel.  Then open the door, and flee, and tarry not[3]

But try buying instead of renting. I have some boxes in which is the very earth from which God made Adam, the sand upon which Jesus walked, and one with the breath of St Paul. (They are for sale, make me an offer.)
 1. You know what to do, tithe and pray, pray and tithe.
 2. And don't get any funny ideas about that: if you do it will confirm what I said about Macs.
 3. This is another piece of remarkably good advice: after you tip oil over a king's head, "not tarrying" is the best thing you can do. Isn't God wise?
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Online ParkingPlaces

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6367
  • Darwins +750/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Hide and Seek World Champion since 1958!
Re: A question for our fundamentalist buddies: Why genes?
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2014, 08:12:28 PM »
Just my luck. I'm over 60 and just now found out that I'm gay. Which would bother me much less if I was a woman, because I am attracted to women. Of course, they never returned the favor, but maybe that's because I was only attracted to lesbians and they wanted god to change me. Is it too late?

I'd still be ugly as a girl, huh?

Oh well, maybe I'll find out I'm rich too. That would solve a problem or two, and I'd be less concerned about my newfound sexual identity.

What are you doing tomorrow night, GB? My minor demons wanna know.

Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 12209
  • Darwins +658/-28
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
Re: A question for our fundamentalist buddies: Why genes?
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2014, 09:31:56 PM »
I was thinking, obviously erroneously, that a smart god would use some method of biological reproduction that always batted a thousand, and hence, by implication, was unchangeable.

Someone, possibly KCrady, said once that excellent evidence of a god would be if we shouldn't work.  If we were not biological organisms like every single other life form on earth.  Say, if we were solid bronze, with not discernible reason to be animate.

But I'm standing at attention and saluting your insights, screwtape.  From now on I promise never again to questions either god or you.

A distinction without a difference.  But thank you anyway.  You are obviously a wise, glib and handsome man with an above average shlong.

Links:
Rules
Guides & Tutorials

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 12209
  • Darwins +658/-28
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
Re: A question for our fundamentalist buddies: Why genes?
« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2014, 09:35:35 PM »
I'd still be ugly as a girl, huh?

I wish our old friend, infidel Mohammed , were around to reply to this.  I cannot do it justice, so I shan't embarrass myself in the effort.
Links:
Rules
Guides & Tutorials

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline jtk73

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 153
  • Darwins +13/-1
  • Gender: Male
Re: A question for our fundamentalist buddies: Why genes?
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2014, 03:48:30 PM »
So when their DNA was dipped in sin,....

I know I like to dip my DNA in sin, if ya know whatta mean!

*Sorry, I had to go there.