Author Topic: Why an eternal afterlife sucks summed up in one sentence  (Read 2501 times)

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Offline One Above All

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Why an eternal afterlife sucks summed up in one sentence
« on: February 13, 2014, 05:09:31 PM »
Quote from: Phil Connors (Groundhog Day)
What would you do if every day was the same, and nothing you did mattered?

In case the sentence wasn't good enough, here's an explanation.

Heaven is supposed to be "perfect". Now, perfection cannot change, or it becomes imperfect. In other words, Heaven is exactly the same every single day. For eternity. In addition, whatever you do on Earth has already been predetermined (the omniscience problem), which means that nothing you do will change that, since it's what you were meant to do anyway.

Would any theists like to address this simple argument? I'm betting either nobody will, or that their arguments will be full of holes, as theist arguments are.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why an eternal afterlife sucks summed up in one sentence
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2014, 05:14:37 PM »
I loved that movie--it showed that eternal life was not necessarily a paradise, and that you had to find your own meaning and purpose no matter what. The guy who made it--Harold Ramis-- is a Buddhist, IIRC.  :angel:
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Why an eternal afterlife sucks summed up in one sentence
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2014, 04:40:07 AM »
"What would you do if every day was the same, and nothing you did mattered?"

I see you work for a Government Department too!   ;D
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline One Above All

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Re: Why an eternal afterlife sucks summed up in one sentence
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2014, 05:30:53 AM »
I see you work for a Government Department too!   ;D

I sure hope I don't ever have to. I have bigger things in mind for myself.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline DrPancake

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Re: Why an eternal afterlife sucks summed up in one sentence
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2014, 09:20:33 AM »
Quote
What would you do if every day was the same, and nothing you did mattered?

I would become very bitter and angry, which is what most of my public school life was like.

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Why an eternal afterlife sucks summed up in one sentence
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2014, 09:31:46 AM »
The guy who made it--Harold Ramis-- is a Buddhist, IIRC.  :angel:
He's also a Ghostbuster.
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Offline neopagan

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Re: Why an eternal afterlife sucks summed up in one sentence
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2014, 10:07:51 AM »
SSDD[1]

Not a true sentence, but you get the point.   :laugh:
 1. Same sh1t different day
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why an eternal afterlife sucks summed up in one sentence
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2014, 11:37:15 AM »
So many jobs--teaching and social work spring to mind for some reason ;)-- can be like that unless you change your attitude.....and sometimes even that doesn't help! :P
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline rev45

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Re: Why an eternal afterlife sucks summed up in one sentence
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2014, 12:52:20 PM »
SSDD[1]

Not a true sentence, but you get the point.   :laugh:
 1. Same-sex sh1t different day
One of my shirts I wear at the gym says "same shirt different day."  Is gets some laughs becaus it's sometimes true.
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Why an eternal afterlife sucks summed up in one sentence
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2014, 01:32:42 PM »
One above all,you see the problem with your hypothesis?

 Heaven,like God is different for every believer....SPAH if you will,Self Projection as Heaven. For every individual believer has his very own version of what heaven is,regardless of what the scripture tells them. Scripture tells them what heaven will be,they ignore it and substitute what their fantasy is.

 Can anyone here give the actual scriptural version of heaven?.....and of course any contradictory scripture where heaven can be your own personal fantasy?
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline One Above All

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Re: Why an eternal afterlife sucks summed up in one sentence
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2014, 01:36:38 PM »
One above all,you see the problem with your hypothesis?

 Heaven,like God is different for every believer....SPAH if you will,Self Projection as Heaven. For every individual believer has his very own version of what heaven is,regardless of what the scripture tells them.

Irrelevant. How many times can you watch your favorite movie before you get bored? How many times can you listen your favorite song before you hate it? The number might be large, but nowhere near infinity.

Scripture tells them what heaven will be,they ignore it and substitute what their fantasy is.


 Can anyone here give the actual scriptural version of heaven?.....and of course any contradictory scripture where heaven can be your own personal fantasy?

Look, if we're going by what the Bible says, we're gonna end up in contradiction land.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline cwschizzy

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Re: Why an eternal afterlife sucks summed up in one sentence
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2014, 02:44:32 PM »

Look, if we're going by what the Bible says, we're gonna end up in contradiction land.


Contradiction Land could be a successful theme park if set up right in the middle of fundamentalist USA. Smart idea for entrepreneurs.
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Why an eternal afterlife sucks summed up in one sentence
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2014, 02:47:39 PM »
Contradiction Land could be a successful theme park if set up right in the middle of fundamentalist USA. Smart idea for entrepreneurs.

There are no contradictions in the Bible according to fundies. Every single verse is perfect and unchanging. You should know that.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline cwschizzy

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Re: Why an eternal afterlife sucks summed up in one sentence
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2014, 02:55:16 PM »
I know. I figured they wouldn't get the irony.
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Offline DrPancake

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Re: Why an eternal afterlife sucks summed up in one sentence
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2014, 03:30:38 PM »

Look, if we're going by what the Bible says, we're gonna end up in contradiction land.


Contradiction Land could be a successful theme park if set up right in the middle of fundamentalist USA. Smart idea for entrepreneurs.

Ken Ham would be all over this!

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Why an eternal afterlife sucks summed up in one sentence
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2014, 07:29:12 PM »
One above all,you see the problem with your hypothesis?

 Heaven,like God is different for every believer....SPAH if you will,Self Projection as Heaven. For every individual believer has his very own version of what heaven is,regardless of what the scripture tells them.

Irrelevant. How many times can you watch your favorite movie before you get bored? How many times can you listen your favorite song before you hate it? The number might be large, but nowhere near infinity.

Scripture tells them what heaven will be,they ignore it and substitute what their fantasy is.


 Can anyone here give the actual scriptural version of heaven?.....and of course any contradictory scripture where heaven can be your own personal fantasy?

Look, if we're going by what the Bible says, we're gonna end up in contradiction land.
I realize what you say here,but the point was God's idea of heaven,everybody praising him 24/7 and the believers idea of SPAH are quite different. Then there is the Jesus returns to earth version,it differs from both God and the believers version of "paradise". We first have to define what the afterlife is,without a true definition we are trapped in the circular reasoning that is Christianity.

 Then there is the original followers of God,the Jews version,,,,,, NON EXISTANT.
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Why an eternal afterlife sucks summed up in one sentence
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2014, 01:46:24 AM »
Quote from: Phil Connors (Groundhog Day)
What would you do if every day was the same, and nothing you did mattered?

In case the sentence wasn't good enough, here's an explanation.

Heaven is supposed to be "perfect". Now, perfection cannot change, or it becomes imperfect. In other words, Heaven is exactly the same every single day. For eternity. In addition, whatever you do on Earth has already been predetermined (the omniscience problem), which means that nothing you do will change that, since it's what you were meant to do anyway.

Would any theists like to address this simple argument? I'm betting either nobody will, or that their arguments will be full of holes, as theist arguments are.

Absolutely wrong. Heaven is you doing what you want to do. You will not be doing the same exact thing every single day. Phil Connors mastered many arts in that movie. You can do something different every single day in Heaven. You will never get bored with infinite options. The only thing is that you wouldn't be able to sin. All the people who still choose to sin will be in Hell so they don't mess it up for the rest of us.

Notice in the beginning of the movie when he realized there was no consequences, he became a thief, liar, murderer, and sexual deviant.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2014, 01:50:53 AM by skeptic54768 »
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline natlegend

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Re: Why an eternal afterlife sucks summed up in one sentence
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2014, 02:01:50 AM »
And you know this Skeptic because...?
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Offline natlegend

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Re: Why an eternal afterlife sucks summed up in one sentence
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2014, 02:04:37 AM »
It's Groundhog day!



"Don't drive angry! Don't drive angry!!
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Why an eternal afterlife sucks summed up in one sentence
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2014, 02:07:22 AM »
And you know this Skeptic because...?

How would the OP know that Heaven is the same thing every single day?

We are starting to go in circles again. The same arguments back and forth.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline jynnan tonnix

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Re: Why an eternal afterlife sucks summed up in one sentence
« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2014, 08:32:58 AM »
I wonder, exactly, how many different "things" it is possible to do before a sin slips in? This question has been asked before, but is there free will in heaven? If so, and if there are, as you say, "infinite options of things we will be able to do in heaven, how would it be possible, being the same "fallen-but-forgiven" soul we were on earth, not to, at some point during infinity, opt for something which might not be completely pleasing to god? Or would we be entirely different, unable-to-sin automatons; demonstrably not the same people we were on earth?

Go ahead, list a number of things you enjoy doing which cannot possibly contain a hint of sin. It doesn't have to be an infinite number. Just enough to fill up a few years, maybe.

In effect, most things which we enjoy doing are, by definition, at least partly selfish. And even that sense of personal gratification is probably sinful. In effect, spending your whole infinity worshiping god is probably the only thing which could truly keep you completely unblemished.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2014, 08:37:26 AM by jynnan tonnix »

Offline One Above All

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Re: Why an eternal afterlife sucks summed up in one sentence
« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2014, 08:44:33 AM »
In effect, most things which we enjoy doing are, by definition, at least partly selfish.

I have thought about selfishness extensively and concluded that any action can be construed as selfish. Helping others? You only help because you feel good about it. Hurting others? Either[1] you're sadistic (in which case it's selfish), or you want to prove you can do unselfish things (which is still selfish).
 1. I'm going with extremes here; there are other possibilities in between (that are still selfish, nonetheless).
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Why an eternal afterlife sucks summed up in one sentence
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2014, 12:43:05 PM »
And you know this Skeptic because...?

How would the OP know that Heaven is the same thing every single day?

We are starting to go in circles again. The same arguments back and forth.
Well, he doesn't know it.  But then again, he doesn't believe such a place exists, so we know that he's engaging in a hypothetical.

You do believe such a place exists, so natlegend's question is valid and one would expect that you'd be able to provide an answer.
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Offline wheels5894

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Re: Why an eternal afterlife sucks summed up in one sentence
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2014, 12:45:26 PM »
Absolutely wrong. Heaven is you doing what you want to do. You will not be doing the same exact thing every single day. Phil Connors mastered many arts in that movie. You can do something different every single day in Heaven. You will never get bored with infinite options. The only thing is that you wouldn't be able to sin. All the people who still choose to sin will be in Hell so they don't mess it up for the rest of us.

Notice in the beginning of the movie when he realized there was no consequences, he became a thief, liar, murderer, and sexual deviant.

Heaven is supposed to be eternal. Eternal doesn't mean a long time it means outwith time. Now we are all familiar with the problems of time and of running out of it at important moments so it is hard, but not impossible to realise what heaven might be like.

When you arrive there will be no clocks, no watches - no time at all. This means there will be no days and nights - indeed the bible reckons god will be the light and, if he remains in heaven that would imply no darkness. The added complication is whether you could move anywhere given that, at least on earth, movement is measured by time and distance, Absence of time might mean movement is not possible. Of course, you will be the in ideal place when you arrive so there's no need to move because it would imply your position/ location was not perfect.

So spirits just staying where they are doing nothing with no measure of time passing.... probably can't drum fingers in boredom. I'd choose permanent death I think.
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Offline G-Roll

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Re: Why an eternal afterlife sucks summed up in one sentence
« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2014, 01:35:41 PM »
I thought heaven was a place with no hangovers, STDs, or unplanned accidental pregnancies. Because that would make for a paradise to me. But I guess the guy who can change water into wine is somehow not a party guy. So I would expect that there is no "sex, drugs, and rock n roll" in heaven.
Are there any "more than friends" relationships in heaven? If you never marry in this life are you just single and alone to never have a relationship with someone in heaven? Is it like staying in a big fancy resort and being sober the whole time? Go down to the beach and not see any chicks (or dudes if that’s what you are into) in bikinis. Basically are people in heaven no longer human and no longer enjoy or need that which makes us human? I don’t enjoy working but I get restless after a few days of being at home and sometimes actually look forward to going back to the grind. So would I constantly feel anxious in heaven?
Seeming other than the book of Enoch (which isn’t a part of the gospel) doesn’t really cover heaven other than Enoch was told it isn’t for him (haha) I don’t think anyone can claim anything about it. So if you try and explain it to me you are full of shit.
Unless you are Islamic. Then you get 100 virgins or something. I would say that perhaps they are on to something with debauchery with no consequence but these are 100 some virgins... That’s 100 or so I am not ready yet. 100 do you love me or do you just want to sex me up? 100 ouch that hurts! Not doing that again! I am not knocking virgins at all because there is absolutely nothing wrong with that lifestyle or the silly examples I listed. However if you are promising an afterlife of debauchery after an actual life of holy no having fun then give me 5 female versions of Charlie Sheen and I might sign up.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Why an eternal afterlife sucks summed up in one sentence
« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2014, 02:24:59 AM »
Heaven is you doing what you want to do. You will not be doing the same exact thing every single day.

Question, skeptic, since you know what goes on in heaven.  Here's the scenario....

I want to talk to Einstein.

Einstein does not want to talk to me.

Whose "doing what you want to do" succeeds?  Which one of us - in heaven - gets disappointed?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why an eternal afterlife sucks summed up in one sentence
« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2014, 02:02:04 PM »
Heaven is like, the best! It is just the most perfect place possible. You will be so happy you will just burst with joy. You will not want to do anything bad, because nothing bad will exist in heaven. Okay with that so far?

But "you" will, somehow, still be "you". Even though the "you" on earth right now is actually a loathsome sinner full of the desire to do bad.....and the rules for how to get into heaven are ambiguous to say the least--follow all of the ten or 20 or 500 commandments in the bible, or just love god, love other people, and maybe accept Jesus as lord and savior, possibly pray for your sins to be forgiven, and maybe try to do good works.

What those good works might be is not clear either. Give all your stuff to the poor, maybe, or just work hard at your job and pay all your bills on time, maybe, or raise decent kids, or maybe don't have any kids at all and never have sex in your life, maybe, or be a missionary and bring your version of god to heathens, or maybe just sacrifice yourself for someone else and get a free trip to heaven, or who knows? Eat pork, or not. Cut your hair, or not. Don't blaspheme, whatever that means. Drink poison. But do not test god!

Clearly, the whole how to get to heaven thing is not well thought out.

All the people who would do bad things are in hell-- meaning all the people who did not get the above rules right, plus, murderers and rapist and bank robbers, but also all your friends and relatives and anyone else who a) was a devout believer but practiced the wrong religion, b)sometimes imagined doing something bad to someone but never actually did it, c)did not commit any crimes or intentionally harm anyone but was an atheist. I predict heaven will be empty of everyone but those few incapable of any wrong doing: unborn fetuses, stillborn babies and people with mental disabilities...sounds like paradise to me.

Speaking of paradise, the Muslim heaven is an oasis, a palace with every need met, where you will live better than the wealthiest sultan. It is all about water, pools of it, fountains of it, lush gardens full of flowers and fruit. Funny how a desert culture would envision heaven as being the opposite of the harsh, dry dangerous environment that they faced everyday....

Bottom line on heaven is you are not supposed to ask questions! Just obey something. :P
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline jynnan tonnix

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Re: Why an eternal afterlife sucks summed up in one sentence
« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2014, 02:26:33 PM »
Skeptic, can you at least admit that all these questions, and all the speculation as to the nature of heaven done from an atheist's point of view bring up a lot of valid points which your knee-jerk assumptions that it will simply be an eternity of bliss fail to address?

And if you don't agree with these hypotheticals, can you explain why it is, exactly, that they do not make sense?

Offline screwtape

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Re: Why an eternal afterlife sucks summed up in one sentence
« Reply #28 on: February 18, 2014, 10:55:32 AM »
Question, skeptic, since you know what goes on in heaven.  Here's the scenario....

I want to talk to Einstein.

Einstein does not want to talk to me.

Whose "doing what you want to do" succeeds?  Which one of us - in heaven - gets disappointed?

If heaven were like a personal reality simulator that is tailored and caters to each individual, then you could talk to a version of Einstein that would be an exact model of him, though one who is interested in gabbing with you, while the real Big Al would never even have to know about you. 

Heaven as The Matrix.  And because it would be god-powered, you don't need any cables plugged into your head.  It would all be done by magic. 
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