Author Topic: Omnipotent, Malevolent, Confusing, or Non-existent  (Read 3341 times)

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Offline Andy S.

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Omnipotent, Malevolent, Confusing, or Non-existent
« on: February 08, 2014, 09:32:46 AM »
When I was a Christian I was always told (I mean brainwashed to believe) that the message of salvation was clear and simple.  After I started digging into the bible I realized the doctrine of salvation was unclear and contradictory.  I lost my faith shortly after I discovered the doctrine of salvation is unclear in the bible.  The Christian god doesn't say exactly what a person needs to do or believe in order to inherit eternal life in heaven.  This was problematic for me as a Christian especially when heaven and hell were in the balances.  If the Christian god can't even lay out the exact requirements needed for salvation in his "inspired" bible then why call him god?  To play off of Epicurus' quote a bit:   

“Is God willing to give humans a book with exact requirements on how one can get to heaven, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then why do we have an "inspired" book by him that fails to lay out the exact requirements on how one can get to heaven?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
"The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries, that have afflicted the human race, have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion."
~Thomas Paine (The Age of Reason)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Omnipotent, Malevolent, Confusing, or Non-existent
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2014, 12:55:25 PM »
When I was a Christian I was always told (I mean brainwashed to believe) that the message of salvation was clear and simple.  After I started digging into the bible I realized the doctrine of salvation was unclear and contradictory.  I lost my faith shortly after I discovered the doctrine of salvation is unclear in the bible.  The Christian god doesn't say exactly what a person needs to do or believe in order to inherit eternal life in heaven.  This was problematic for me as a Christian especially when heaven and hell were in the balances.  If the Christian god can't even lay out the exact requirements needed for salvation in his "inspired" bible then why call him god?  To play off of Epicurus' quote a bit:   

“Is God willing to give humans a book with exact requirements on how one can get to heaven, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then why do we have an "inspired" book by him that fails to lay out the exact requirements on how one can get to heaven?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

You must have missed John 3:16. It explains it right there as plain as the sun in your face.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Andy S.

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Re: Omnipotent, Malevolent, Confusing, or Non-existent
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2014, 04:48:37 PM »


You must have missed John 3:16. It explains it right there as plain as the sun in your face.

I just looked out my window and I was going to see what you meant by something being "plain as the sun in your face".  There is a cloud covering the sun right now just like the doctrine of salvation is "cloudy" in the bible.  That verse says what I have to believe but not what I have to do to get to heaven.  And John 3:16 is even too vague on what I have to believe.  Skeptic54768, does one have to only believe Jesus is the son OF god like it says in John 3:16 or does a person also have to believe that Jesus IS god?  There is a verse that contradicts John 3:16 don't ya know?
"The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries, that have afflicted the human race, have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion."
~Thomas Paine (The Age of Reason)

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Omnipotent, Malevolent, Confusing, or Non-existent
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2014, 05:19:23 PM »
If all god wanted to do was give us the one verse, why didn't he just do that and be done with it? You have to wade through how may pages of begats and strange rules and mythical stories to get to the one most important thing? Why is the one verse, if that is all we need, buried in, at minimum, 1000 pages of useless stuff?

BTW, I just looked to find out how many pages, chapters and verses are in the bible.

Guess what? Nobody knows, because "the bible" has so many different versions and translations. The length of your bible will range from 66 to 81 chapters, depending on what religious group was most popular in the place where you live.

The longest bible is used by the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, which also happens to be the oldest form of Christianity there is. Wonder how many members of the largest groups of Christians-- Catholics and Evangelical Protestants-- realize they are using bibles with lots of the original stuff edited out.....[1]

But back to only needing to know one verse. What the eff is the rest of the bible for anyway? To make people confused so they can create all these contradictory religions and have wars over them?

Very funny, god.  &)
 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Andy S.

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Re: Omnipotent, Malevolent, Confusing, or Non-existent
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2014, 12:16:13 PM »
If all god wanted to do was give us the one verse, why didn't he just do that and be done with it? You have to wade through how may pages of begats and strange rules and mythical stories to get to the one most important thing? Why is the one verse, if that is all we need, buried in, at minimum, 1000 pages of useless stuff?

Not only that but only believing John 3:16 to be the key to salvation comes with baggage.  A skeptic like me would have to believe that the account of Jesus is a historical truth but the supposed eye-witnesses can't even get the facts straight.  As an individual in the 21st century, all I'm given is a contradictory "word of God" about Jesus' life and death which, if I don't believe in it, I will burn in hell. I am given a contradictory genealogy of Jesus (compare Matt. 1 and Luke 3). I am given a contradictory time of death from these supposed eyewitnesses (compare Mark 15:25 with John 19:14). I am given a contradictory day of death from these supposed eye witnesses among many other contradictions. Did Jesus die on the afternoon on the day before the Passover meal (Jn. 18:28, 19;24) or the mid-morning on the day after the Passover meal (Mk. 14:12, 15:25)?  And I'm supposed to believe that these people were eye-witnesses???

Skeptics such as myself have to have incredible faith to believe that God sent his son to earth to die for the sins of mankind based on the contradictory accounts on Jesus' life and death.  If the Christian god exists, skeptics like myself are going to be damned for our skepticism.  If there is some kind of "god" then I can only hope that he/she/it rewards people for not being so gullible in the afterlife.

Christians tell me all the time, "You just have to have faith".  They quote me Jesus' words in John 20:29, "Blessed are they who do not see and yet believe".  However, as a skeptic, I don't think the doubting Thomas story is even reliable in John 20.  Luke says that Thomas was present at Jesus' first post resurrection appearance (Luke 24:33).


The longest bible is used by the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, which also happens to be the oldest form of Christianity there is. Wonder how many members of the largest groups of Christians-- Catholics and Evangelical Protestants-- realize they are using bibles with lots of the original stuff edited out.....[1]
 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible

My GUESS would be 1 to 5%.  I just had a discussion with my parents about this who have been Baptists almost their entier lives.  I told them there are more books included in the Catholic bibles than there are the Protestant bibles.  They couldn't believe it!  I googled it for them and said, "Because you have seen, you have believed.  Blessed are those who do not see, but still believe me".   :D 

I almost wanted to continue googling to show them all the textual variants, add-ons, omissions that can be found in the Greek manuscripts of the NT but I don't want to do anything to hinder their faith.  They are great Christian parents and their faith means a lot to them.  Reading all of Bart Ehrman's books really damaged my faith as my belief in Christ was predicated on the bible being inerrant .  If god went through the trouble of "inspiring" the bible, why wouldn't he go through the trouble of preserving the bible?  If he is not willing or able to preserve his word then why call him god?  Especially when he can't even preserve the exact requirements needed for salvation!!! 

I first discovered all the "editing" when I was a Christian and was studying the "sons of god" in Gen. 6:1-4.  You know, when the angels "came (pardon the pun) in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them" (Gen. 6:4).  My former pastor couldn't believe this story could be true so he interpreted "sons of god" to mean the descendants of Cain.  I researched this and discovered that the term "sons of god" does, indeed, mean angels.  I read the book of Enoch which explains in detail that the fallen angels "came in to the daughters of men" and they bore children.  Then I was interested to find out that the book of Enoch is actually treated as canonical by the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church and Eritrean Orthodox Tewahedo Church.  So if my former pastor preached at any of these churches he would have to say that "sons of god" were angels because the book of Enoch is canonical in their churches.

But back to only needing to know one verse. What the eff is the rest of the bible for anyway? To make people confused so they can create all these contradictory religions and have wars over them?

This is a good point.  What the eff is the rest of the bible for anyway?  Why doesn't god just speak John 3:16 from the sky every day, month, or year so everyone can hear this clear and simple requirement for salvation?  Instead, I keep reading in John to find a very odd verse that I don't only have to believe that Jesus is the Son OF God, but I might possibly have to believe that Jesus is the "I AM" of the Old Testament (Ex. 3:14).  John 8:24 says, "...unless you believe that "I AM" you will die in your sins'.  So is John 3:16 enough?  Possibly not!  Who knows?  Nobody because the bible is too ambiguous when it comes to the exact requirements needed for salvation!!!       
"The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries, that have afflicted the human race, have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion."
~Thomas Paine (The Age of Reason)

Offline Ron Jeremy

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Re: Omnipotent, Malevolent, Confusing, or Non-existent
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2014, 01:50:38 PM »
When I was a Christian I was always told (I mean brainwashed to believe) that the message of salvation was clear and simple.  After I started digging into the bible I realized the doctrine of salvation was unclear and contradictory.  I lost my faith shortly after I discovered the doctrine of salvation is unclear in the bible.  The Christian god doesn't say exactly what a person needs to do or believe in order to inherit eternal life in heaven.  This was problematic for me as a Christian especially when heaven and hell were in the balances.  If the Christian god can't even lay out the exact requirements needed for salvation in his "inspired" bible then why call him god?  To play off of Epicurus' quote a bit:   

“Is God willing to give humans a book with exact requirements on how one can get to heaven, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then why do we have an "inspired" book by him that fails to lay out the exact requirements on how one can get to heaven?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

You must have missed John 3:16. It explains it right there as plain as the sun in your face.

I assume you can't force yourself to believe that Santa Claus exists even if your life depended on it. I'm the same with Jesus. Would it be ok if I pretended to believe in him? Would that get me into heaven? How can I believe in something when I see no evidence for it's being real?
Can you give me an example Skep of how you could force yourself to believe in something that you don't think is real?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - An example of a clearly demonstrably false biblical 'prophesy'.

The biblical myth of a 6000 year old Earth is proven false by the Gaia satellite directly measuring star age.

Offline lotanddaughters

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Re: Omnipotent, Malevolent, Confusing, or Non-existent
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2014, 02:39:36 PM »
When I was a Christian I was always told (I mean brainwashed to believe) that the message of salvation was clear and simple.  After I started digging into the bible I realized the doctrine of salvation was unclear and contradictory.  I lost my faith shortly after I discovered the doctrine of salvation is unclear in the bible.  The Christian god doesn't say exactly what a person needs to do or believe in order to inherit eternal life in heaven.  This was problematic for me as a Christian especially when heaven and hell were in the balances.  If the Christian god can't even lay out the exact requirements needed for salvation in his "inspired" bible then why call him god?  To play off of Epicurus' quote a bit:   

“Is God willing to give humans a book with exact requirements on how one can get to heaven, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then why do we have an "inspired" book by him that fails to lay out the exact requirements on how one can get to heaven?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

You must have missed John 3:16. It explains it right there as plain as the sun in your face.


If all god wanted to do was give us the one verse, why didn't he just do that and be done with it? You have to wade through how may pages of begats and strange rules and mythical stories to get to the one most important thing? Why is the one verse, if that is all we need, buried in, at minimum, 1000 pages of useless stuff?

BTW, I just looked to find out how many pages, chapters and verses are in the bible.

Guess what? Nobody knows, because "the bible" has so many different versions and translations. The length of your bible will range from 66 to 81 chapters, depending on what religious group was most popular in the place where you live.

The longest bible is used by the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, which also happens to be the oldest form of Christianity there is. Wonder how many members of the largest groups of Christians-- Catholics and Evangelical Protestants-- realize they are using bibles with lots of the original stuff edited out.....[1]

But back to only needing to know one verse. What the eff is the rest of the bible for anyway? To make people confused so they can create all these contradictory religions and have wars over them?

Very funny, god.  &)
 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible

Yeah. That one verse should have immediately been presented to the Native Americans. Hell, the "only begotten son" should have been there along with the verse to accompany him immediately after The Fall, if not sooner. When Muslim parents try to teach their babies that the Quran is the "One True Message", there should immediately be an angel or two sent down to slap the parents' faces. We shouldn't be expected to trust the ol' "We will be rewarded or punished when we leave this earth" canard, all the while being born into a world with bullshitters lurking around every corner, each one with his own invisible gift.

Period.
Enough with your bullshit.
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Offline lotanddaughters

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Re: Omnipotent, Malevolent, Confusing, or Non-existent
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2014, 03:03:54 PM »
When I was a Christian I was always told (I mean brainwashed to believe) that the message of salvation was clear and simple.  After I started digging into the bible I realized the doctrine of salvation was unclear and contradictory.  I lost my faith shortly after I discovered the doctrine of salvation is unclear in the bible.  The Christian god doesn't say exactly what a person needs to do or believe in order to inherit eternal life in heaven.  This was problematic for me as a Christian especially when heaven and hell were in the balances.  If the Christian god can't even lay out the exact requirements needed for salvation in his "inspired" bible then why call him god?  To play off of Epicurus' quote a bit:   

“Is God willing to give humans a book with exact requirements on how one can get to heaven, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then why do we have an "inspired" book by him that fails to lay out the exact requirements on how one can get to heaven?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

You must have missed John 3:16. It explains it right there as plain as the sun in your face.

I like how this dude chose "skeptic" as part of his username.

How can such a ridiculous, far-fetched tall tale from the Ancient World pass through such a skeptical analysis of one's surroundings?

Well, maybe the fairy tale infiltrated and set up camp long before the dude decided to become "skeptical".
Enough with your bullshit.
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Online wheels5894

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Re: Omnipotent, Malevolent, Confusing, or Non-existent
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2014, 03:57:16 PM »


You must have missed John 3:16. It explains it right there as plain as the sun in your face.
[/quote]

It's funny, but whilst this verse demands belief in exchange for salvation, other verse demand faith AND good works. So we now have the Catholic Church which demands good works and the protestant churches, from Luther, who claim the salvation is juts by faith. Now what sort of  a document is the bible is the author doesn't really quite know (or maybe hasn't decided) just what is needed for salvation? I'd reply to that by saying the the obvious answer is that multiple human authors just came up with their own ideas and the redactors didn't take much trouble to get the same story but how would you reply, Skeptic?
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Omnipotent, Malevolent, Confusing, or Non-existent
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2014, 05:16:31 PM »
skeptic, why are there so many different versions of god's one and only holy word? :?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Andy S.

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Re: Omnipotent, Malevolent, Confusing, or Non-existent
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2014, 10:35:00 PM »
skeptic, why are there so many different versions of god's one and only holy word? :?

Skeptic, I understand that your answer to nogodsforme's question might be "I don't know".  However, I would like to know why you call this god your god when he can't even preserve his one and only holy word?  If he isn't able or willing to preserve his one and only holy word then why call him god?

A SHOUT OUT TO ALL THE TRUE SKEPTICS - Is it just me or is the argument for Christianity looking like the Broncos in the Super Bowl?  Christian apologists have no offense, a lousy defense, and a really crappy play book. 

   
"The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries, that have afflicted the human race, have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion."
~Thomas Paine (The Age of Reason)

Offline kcrady

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Re: Omnipotent, Malevolent, Confusing, or Non-existent
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2014, 12:03:28 AM »
In my opinion, the Christian concept of "salvation" and its centrality is one of the more disgusting aspects of Christianity.  Not just the threats of eternal torment, the iconography of torture as a wonderful thing, the whole symbolic Bathory-style vampire-cult trappings of "washing in the blood" of Jesus while feasting on his blood and flesh.  Nah, that's just the gruesome combo platter.  The core of it is the concept itself: that "The Point Of It All" is...*drumroll*...to get one's own ass "saved."

Compare to the Buddhist concept of the Bodhisattva, a person who refuses to enter Paradise as long as other beings are suffering, but chooses instead to return to "this life" to help them reach enlightenment and find the way to Paradise.  Christians heap praise on Jesus for his great self-sacrificial act of "dying for their sins," yet, almost as soon as his bad weekend was over, he scoots straight off to Heaven to collect every comic book supervillain's wet dream as his prize: ABSOLUTE DOMINATION OF THE UNIVERRRRRRRSE FOR ALL OF ETERNITY!  Can I get a loud maniacal laugh, brothers and sisters?  All the while, he is perfectly content to listen to the agonized screams of the vast majority of the human species - FOREVER.  And the great, lofty, spiritual ambition of his Christian followers is just a more sycophantic version of the same thing: "Save" their own asses so they can spend eternity kissing his, while...listening to the tormented cries of the people who got the wrong answers on the Celestial Quiz.  A heartless eternity, devoid of compassion.

"The question of whether atheists are, you know, right, typically gets sidestepped in favor of what is apparently the much more compelling question of whether atheists are jerks."

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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Omnipotent, Malevolent, Confusing, or Non-existent
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2014, 01:24:51 AM »
Guys,

I think you are all missing the main point. You are focusing too much on inconsequential details instead of the main emphasis of salvation. It's like getting a million dollars and complaining that the bills are a little too wrinkled.

Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Omnipotent, Malevolent, Confusing, or Non-existent
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2014, 01:29:30 AM »
In my opinion, the Christian concept of "salvation" and its centrality is one of the more disgusting aspects of Christianity.  Not just the threats of eternal torment, the iconography of torture as a wonderful thing, the whole symbolic Bathory-style vampire-cult trappings of "washing in the blood" of Jesus while feasting on his blood and flesh.  Nah, that's just the gruesome combo platter.  The core of it is the concept itself: that "The Point Of It All" is...*drumroll*...to get one's own ass "saved."

Compare to the Buddhist concept of the Bodhisattva, a person who refuses to enter Paradise as long as other beings are suffering, but chooses instead to return to "this life" to help them reach enlightenment and find the way to Paradise.  Christians heap praise on Jesus for his great self-sacrificial act of "dying for their sins," yet, almost as soon as his bad weekend was over, he scoots straight off to Heaven to collect every comic book supervillain's wet dream as his prize: ABSOLUTE DOMINATION OF THE UNIVERRRRRRRSE FOR ALL OF ETERNITY!  Can I get a loud maniacal laugh, brothers and sisters?  All the while, he is perfectly content to listen to the agonized screams of the vast majority of the human species - FOREVER.  And the great, lofty, spiritual ambition of his Christian followers is just a more sycophantic version of the same thing: "Save" their own asses so they can spend eternity kissing his, while...listening to the tormented cries of the people who got the wrong answers on the Celestial Quiz.  A heartless eternity, devoid of compassion.

It is certainly not disgusting. Christianity is the most beautiful religion in the world. It's nothing but pure love and joy. How can you say such a thing? These are the kinds of things that make us think you guys have a deep seeded hatred of Christianity. I never see this much hatred for Islam or Hinduism.

Hell is for people who choose it. When a criminal goes to jail, we say that it was his choice to commit those crimes. We don't blame the builders of the prison or the person who ordered the prison to be built in the first place.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Omnipotent, Malevolent, Confusing, or Non-existent
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2014, 01:31:57 AM »
skeptic, why are there so many different versions of god's one and only holy word? :?

As you guys should know by now, I believe Satan and his demons corrupt people into writing false religions. Jesus warned us of the false prophets in the Gospels though. So, it's simple to spot them.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Omnipotent, Malevolent, Confusing, or Non-existent
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2014, 01:35:09 AM »
This is a good point.  What the eff is the rest of the bible for anyway? 

That's like asking, "Since the purpose of football is to score more points than the other team, what's the rest of the rulebook for?"

Cmon, you guys are much smarter than this.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Online wheels5894

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Re: Omnipotent, Malevolent, Confusing, or Non-existent
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2014, 03:35:15 AM »
skeptic, why are there so many different versions of god's one and only holy word? :?

As you guys should know by now, I believe Satan and his demons corrupt people into writing false religions. Jesus warned us of the false prophets in the Gospels though. So, it's simple to spot them.

Nice one! not only do you believe in an undetectable god but also in an undetectable Satan whom your god cannot control! You can't beat good logic on a Monday morning!

Seriously, you want us to think of your religion as beautiful when it defines new born babies as in need of forgiveness for sins it hasn't had time to commit? It's beautiful - unless you notice that the god is undetectable and allows one as powerful as himself to temp people into permanent torture. All this, and the only evidence he leaves about is a 2,000 year old collection of stories in which none of the rules of what to do are at all clear. If everything was clear cut we would have just one church - not 4,000 denominations / sects?

Come on - it isn't that great!
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Nam

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Re: Omnipotent, Malevolent, Confusing, or Non-existent
« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2014, 05:55:34 AM »
It is certainly not disgusting. Christianity is the most beautiful religion in the world. It's nothing but pure love and joy. How can you say such a thing? These are the kinds of things that make us think you guys have a deep seeded hatred of Christianity. I never see this much hatred for Islam or Hinduism.

Hell is for people who choose it. When a criminal goes to jail, we say that it was his choice to commit those crimes. We don't blame the builders of the prison or the person who ordered the prison to be built in the first place.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA(cough)HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!







Oh, man. Thanks for the laugh.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline stuffin

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Re: Omnipotent, Malevolent, Confusing, or Non-existent
« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2014, 08:04:18 AM »
skeptic, why are there so many different versions of god's one and only holy word? :?

As you guys should know by now, I believe Satan and his demons corrupt people into writing false religions. Jesus warned us of the false prophets in the Gospels though. So, it's simple to spot them.

Well Skep, could you please turn on your Demon Spotting Power (DSP) and point out which posters here have demons currupting them. It's a personal thing, I would like to avoid those folks.

Thanks,
stuffin
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Offline Andy S.

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Re: Omnipotent, Malevolent, Confusing, or Non-existent
« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2014, 08:53:01 AM »
Guys,

I think you are all missing the main point. You are focusing too much on inconsequential details instead of the main emphasis of salvation. It's like getting a million dollars and complaining that the bills are a little too wrinkled.

In my experience as a "Christian", salvation was like getting a million dollars and then finding out all the bills were fake. 

About four years ago I would have wrote the exact same thing as you.  I was taught, errrrr - brainwashed, to think that John 3:16 was "the gospel" in a nutshell.  This verse was taught more than any other verse in my church.  I believed this to be the case for about three years as a "Christian" but then one Sunday morning my pastor was preaching on John 8:24 and he said that people were going to "die in their sins" if they didn't believe Jesus was Yahweh - the "I AM" of Exodus 3:14.  WHAT????!!!!!

This changes John 3:16.  Now I had to believe that God the father so loved the world that he sent his son who is also himself, and whosoever believes that he sent his son who is also himself will not perish but have eternal life.

In addition to the requirement of BELIEF not being clear in the bible, the requirement of what people have to DO is not clearly laid out in the bible.  What are all the sins that one has to repent of?  Is there a list?  Why did the holy spirit convict my Christian dad to quit smoking but not my Christian mom?  Why did the holy spirit convict my Christian mom to quit cussing but not my Christian dad?

We are focusing too much on inconsequential details???  It looks like if we don't get these details right then there are going to be serious consequences - like "perishing", or "dying in our sins", or being "eternally punished" in hell.  Look at that - your god can't even lay out the exact consequences for not meeting the requirements needed for salvation.  I really have no idea why you, or any Christian, call this guy (or guys) your god. 

The doctrine of salvation is unclear in the bible.  The fact that your god doesn't lay out the exact requirements needed for salvation makes your god either omnipotent, malevolent, confusing, or Non-existent.   

 
"The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries, that have afflicted the human race, have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion."
~Thomas Paine (The Age of Reason)

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Omnipotent, Malevolent, Confusing, or Non-existent
« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2014, 09:00:07 AM »
That's like asking, "Since the purpose of football is to score more points than the other team, what's the rest of the rulebook for?"
And if I didn't know any of the rules for football, or were confused about the rules of football, what are the chances that I'd actually be able to get any points on the board?

Besides...football isn't really all that important[1], but what we're talking about here is the eternal state of every soul of humanity.  Maybe looking at the details isn't all that bad for something like that?

Quote
Cmon, you guys are much smarter than this.
You seriously need to do more thinking yourself before you start throwing sh*t like this out there.
 1. depending on who you ask
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Offline G-Roll

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Re: Omnipotent, Malevolent, Confusing, or Non-existent
« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2014, 09:12:28 AM »
Well Skep, could you please turn on your Demon Spotting Power (DSP) and point out which posters here have demons currupting them. It's a personal thing, I would like to avoid those folks.

Thanks,
stuffin

Unfortunately 99% if not 100% of the people in this forum are either tricked by demons or could possibly be demons themselves.
We all actually have Skeps DSP. Anyone who doesn’t agree with Skep has a demon influencing him/her.

So enjoy your demon Stuffin! I am sure they are not that mean if you offer them a glass of cold sweet tea. Or maybe they prefer beer...

Online wheels5894

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Re: Omnipotent, Malevolent, Confusing, or Non-existent
« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2014, 09:16:33 AM »
Good point, Dawg! If we were to put the bible on one side of a table and rules of football on the other side and then try and work out how both were to work we would find that every details of how to play football would be there. (If it were the rules of golf it would be in even finer details of what one can on can't move from the line of play for example.)

Now, take the bible and work out the rules for getting to heaven - rules, skip rules, this is all stories. Why stories when we need rules? Bits of the OT are fine with the rules for worship and uncleanliness etc. So why, the most important of the bible the New Testament, is the text so storyish and vague and unclear? The rules are not there because there are none other than those made up by the writers and hell is there because that was made up by the writers to scare people into belief. I mean the guy who invented original sin was Paul who never met Jesus. Jews never have understood that.

So, come on Skeptic, what's up with the NT?
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Omnipotent, Malevolent, Confusing, or Non-existent
« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2014, 10:26:44 AM »
I think you are all missing the main point. You are focusing too much on inconsequential details instead of the main emphasis of salvation. It's like getting a million dollars and complaining that the bills are a little too wrinkled.
I think it's you that's missing the main point, actually.  Which is, namely, we haven't actually received the "million dollars" yet.  Indeed, not only have we not received it, but the best we've ever managed to receive is a promise.  Not only that, but it's a promise that's passed onto us by other humans who have heard it from other humans, who have heard it from other humans and so on, and the ultimate source of the 'promise' is a religious book, one which has been edited and shaped and changed by those same humans for the better part of two thousand years.

I think under the circumstances, a little skepticism is more than warranted.  Especially given that people have actually envisioned plausible scenarios where someone offering promises and gifts was actually doing it for their own nefarious purposes, such as the Twilight Zone episode, "To Serve Man" and Christopher Anvil's short story, "The Kindly Invasion", where the people who believed those 'promises' and accepted those 'gifts' ended up suffering dire consequences for it.

Of course, that's assuming that the whole thing is real in the first place.  It's not that difficult to envision the whole business as being wishful thinking that's been treated as real because people so desperately want to be able to cheat death.

It is certainly not disgusting. Christianity is the most beautiful religion in the world. It's nothing but pure love and joy. How can you say such a thing? These are the kinds of things that make us think you guys have a deep seeded hatred of Christianity. I never see this much hatred for Islam or Hinduism.
Tell that to the countless victims of Christian greed and intolerance.  I don't hate Christianity for that - there would have been far more than enough of that to go around, even if Christianity had never come to be - but to pretend that all those horrible things didn't happen, or worse, didn't matter, is sickening.  Humanity has paid an awful, awful price to get where we are.  It's worth it, at least from a 20th century perspective, but I won't pretend that the result didn't require a huge amount of blood, sweat, and tears from people who never would have lived to see it in any case, and all too often were just slaughtered by other humans in some god's name.  Especially since the name spoken by many of them was "Jesus Christ".

I also won't demean the cost all those countless millions of people paid (and are still paying!) by claiming, without the slightest shred of evidence, that they received de facto immortality from a god merely for happening to pick the right belief, and worse, that most of them suffer some kind of eternal punishment for having picked the wrong belief.  That you see no problem in doing so is despicable.

Quote from: skeptic54768
Hell is for people who choose it. When a criminal goes to jail, we say that it was his choice to commit those crimes. We don't blame the builders of the prison or the person who ordered the prison to be built in the first place.
No crime is worth eternal punishment.  I don't care if someone was the most evil, vicious, and wicked person in existence, who ate babies for breakfast and considered torture to be light entertainment.  They still wouldn't deserve eternal punishment.  What you're suggesting by saying that people deserve hell (ala, eternal punishment) is the moral equivalent of saying that it's okay to torture someone while making sure they're constantly being healed so they don't accidentally die from it, and then doing it for countless lifetimes.  It's hard to overstate just how sadistic that really is.

Online ParkingPlaces

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Re: Omnipotent, Malevolent, Confusing, or Non-existent
« Reply #24 on: February 10, 2014, 11:03:58 AM »
Quote from: skeptic54768
Hell is for people who choose it. When a criminal goes to jail, we say that it was his choice to commit those crimes. We don't blame the builders of the prison or the person who ordered the prison to be built in the first place.
No crime is worth eternal punishment.  I don't care if someone was the most evil, vicious, and wicked person in existence, who ate babies for breakfast and considered torture to be light entertainment.  They still wouldn't deserve eternal punishment.  What you're suggesting by saying that people deserve hell (ala, eternal punishment) is the moral equivalent of saying that it's okay to torture someone while making sure they're constantly being healed so they don't accidentally die from it, and then doing it for countless lifetimes.  It's hard to overstate just how sadistic that really is.

Great post, jaimehlers. I karmalized it for you. And Skep your prison thing? Private companies who run prisons in the US also have lobbyists trying to pass laws so that there will be more people going to prison so that they will make more money. The California "Three strikes and you're out" law is an example of that. So humans love getting others in trouble, be they christians lying about hell or christians running prison companies.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline Andy S.

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Re: Omnipotent, Malevolent, Confusing, or Non-existent
« Reply #25 on: February 10, 2014, 12:31:41 PM »

I believe Satan and his demons corrupt people into writing false religions. Jesus warned us of the false prophets in the Gospels though. So, it's simple to spot them.

I think Wheels makes a great point.  He says, "not only do you believe in an undetectable god but also in an undetectable Satan whom your god cannot control!"  A major reason Christians are losing the argument is because they have belief in "undetectable" entities.  The Deist Thomas Paine explains what Christian theology really is all about in "The Age of Reason":


       "The study of theology as it stands in Christian churches, is the study of nothing; it is founded on nothing; it rests on no principles; it proceeds by no authorities; it has no data; it can demonstrate nothing; and admits of no conclusion.  Not any thing can be studied as a science without our being in possession of the principles upon which it is founded; and as this is not the case with Christian theology, it is therefore the study of nothing."


Notice how you say, "Satan and his demons corrupt people into writing false religions".  See, you not only believe in "undetected" things but now you are making things up that are not even in this "undetectable" god's holy book.  The claim that satan and his demons corrupt people into writing false religions in unbiblical.  You are making this up.  This claim is "founded on nothing", it proceeds by only your authority, it has no data, you can't demonstrate this, which means you have to be agnostic on this which "admits of no conclusion".  This is a great example of Thomas Paine's assessment of Christian theology. 

Skeptic, Christian theology is the study of NOTHING.  In turn, what you are giving us as a defense for the hope that lies within you is -- NOTHING!

Lastly, how can I be so sure that YOU can spot these false books written by people who are corrupted by satan and his demons.  I just witnessed that you believe something to be true which cannot even be found in the bible.  For all I know, you are corrupted by satan and his demons.     

   

 
« Last Edit: February 10, 2014, 12:36:35 PM by Andy S. »
"The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries, that have afflicted the human race, have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion."
~Thomas Paine (The Age of Reason)

Offline periboob

Re: Omnipotent, Malevolent, Confusing, or Non-existent
« Reply #26 on: February 10, 2014, 12:34:55 PM »
...
“Is God willing to give humans a book with exact requirements on how one can get to heaven, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then why do we have an "inspired" book by him that fails to lay out the exact requirements on how one can get to heaven?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
Maybe there is no God, and the inspired book is just tribal elders writing to keep the rest in-line. or
Maybe maybe it is a violation of the rules of the "Universe Creation" lab, to fiddle with things after the big bang.
'Everything has been said, but nobody listens and we have to keep going over it again.' André Gide

'No one listen, and if you try it for a while you'll see why.' Mignon McLaughlin

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Offline Andy S.

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Re: Omnipotent, Malevolent, Confusing, or Non-existent
« Reply #27 on: February 10, 2014, 12:54:50 PM »
  Indeed, not only have we not received it, but the best we've ever managed to receive is a promise.  Not only that, but it's a promise that's passed onto us by other humans who have heard it from other humans, who have heard it from other humans and so on, and the ultimate source of the 'promise' is a religious book, one which has been edited and shaped and changed by those same humans for the better part of two thousand years.

It's not very often I have the time or opportunity to quote my favorite Christian counter-apologist two times in one day.  I better take advantage of this opportunity.  Great post Jaimehlers!  To piggy-back on what you said, the deist Thomas Paine wrote in "The Age of Reason":


     "Of all the systems of religion that ever were invented, there is none more derogatory to the Almighty, more unedifying to man, more repugnant to reason, and more contradictory in itself, than this thing called Christianity.  Too absurd for belief, too impossible to convince, and too inconsistent for practice, it renders the heart torpid, or produces only atheists and fanatics."

Hey, maybe deism is the true belief and Thomas Paine was given some predictive powers from his Almighty?  I once swam in the pool of Christianity which was like swimming in a pool with a massive turd in it.  Then I came out of the "faith" and am now a "fanatic atheist".   
"The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries, that have afflicted the human race, have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion."
~Thomas Paine (The Age of Reason)

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Omnipotent, Malevolent, Confusing, or Non-existent
« Reply #28 on: February 10, 2014, 04:18:31 PM »
All religions are illogical, but  "atheists and fanatics" line fits especially well with my experience of being a JW. You are asked to believe such incredibly absurd stuff--dinosaurs never existed and fossils are fakes, people should die instead of getting blood transfusions, no holidays allowed not even birthdays for kids, the world will be destroyed on x date--and only the JW's will make it into paradise, so get out there and win converts for Jehovah!

Yeah!

Wha-? Wait a minute.

Any person with a questioning, skeptical turn of mind would have to turn off their brain completely and become kinda insane in order to stay in the religion.  :(
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.