Author Topic: ID Proponents - why do you think the bible is true?  (Read 2585 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Azdgari

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 12293
  • Darwins +275/-31
  • Gender: Male
Re: ID Proponents - why do you think the bible is true?
« Reply #58 on: February 06, 2014, 11:53:43 AM »
That is an exercise in semantics, then.  It's like saying "there's only one universe!" and then when someone asks about the possibility of multiverses, clarifying that "well, 'universe' means 'all there is' so the multiverses are part of the same universe!"

Sorry I really don't follow.  :-\

In the example I gave, the person saying "only one universe" is defining "universe" in such a way as to prevent the other person (who is talking about multiverses) from getting their meaning across, while not offering any relevant meaning of their own by doing so.  If "universe" was taken beforehand to mean our own space-time, then this is a switch of definitions made in order to prevent the conversation from moving forward when it otherwise would have.

I very much doubt you did this intentionally.  But it seemed to me to be what happened when you switched from talking about mathematical truths, to mathematics "in the largest sense".

I use the word 'real' rather than 'exists objectively' because I am not implying they exist as an object in some manner akin to physical objects a la Platonic Forms

I know this was a side-note, but I would like to point out that it's not necessary.  Objective reality doesn't have anything inherently to do with actual objects.  We both understand this, I think.

Okay some examples of abstract entities that I would say are real:

(i) Relationships of identity: x = x (eg. A given hydrogen atom is that hydrogen atom)

Totally not real.  This is a tool of human understanding.  Labels are human-invented and human-applied.  "Hydrogen" is a predictive tool, not some platonic form, and you said you weren't talking about such forms in the first place.

(ii) Relationships of priority: x is prior to y iff (if ¬x then ¬y) (eg. 1 causation // eg. 2 atoms are prior to molecules)

While it may make you feel superior to those of us of lesser intellects, using jargon like this isn't really helpful.  I have an idea of what you mean, and it's probably accurate, but without you articulating yourself in common English, I can't be sure, and my response might be to something you didn't mean.

Try again, in English?  I have a response to what I think you meant, similar to my response to (i), but I want to know for sure if it applies before I post it.

(iii) Relationships of location: geometric relationships (eg. locations in spacetime)

What is abstract about physical quantities?

This list is far from exhaustive. Among other things it fails completely to cover abstract entities peculiar to human phenomenology such as love.

So you're saying that the human mind is supernatural?
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Online wheels5894

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2520
  • Darwins +110/-1
  • Gender: Male
Re: ID Proponents - why do you think the bible is true?
« Reply #59 on: February 06, 2014, 12:20:06 PM »
Actually I think math was invented by humans. Neanderthals probably did not do algebra.[1] Algebra was thought up by Muslims in the Middle Ages. Whether that make math material or not, I don't know. :-\
 1. What do bible literalists think of Neanderthals, anyway? They have different bone structure and different DNA from modern humans. When did god make them? Before or after Adam and Eve?

I agree about the maths. So far as it seems to me, the whole set of concepts that is modern mathematics is abstract human reasoning based on the real world so that what it can do is to model the world. Some things will always be existent by definition = 1+1=2 and the ratio of the diameter to the circumference of a circle will always be Pi but the rest is abstract thought done by humans. If we disappeared any other race that arrived at our world will have had to find its own mathematical system to enable it to make the journey but that doesn't give maths an external existence other than in our heads.


Now Adam and Eve and Neanderthals. Why do you need to ask? Obviously A and E were Neanderthals and the flood swept them away and god made sure that Noah and Co were humans. What more do we need?
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Foxy Freedom

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1442
  • Darwins +97/-12
  • Why is it so difficult to say you don't know?
    • Foxy Freedom on Doctor Who
Re: ID Proponents - why do you think the bible is true?
« Reply #60 on: February 06, 2014, 01:38:29 PM »
1+1=10 in binary. In vector arithmetic the answer can be anywhere from 0 to 2.

Don't let Shep trick you into thinking that any abstractions have reality: they are just ways of understanding the universe.

Mathematics is entirely defined by humans. In the oral exams for a mathematics degree the student has to be able to define mathematical structures in different ways. There are several assumptions behind the use of a + and there is a society in South America which cannot use numbers.

God like other abstractions is just a way of explaining the universe. The Christian god certainly has the story wrong so he can be dismissed as a reality.
Neither Foxy Freedom nor any associates can be reached via WWGHA. Their official antitheist website is http://the6antitheist6guide6.blogspot.co.uk

The 2nd edition of the free ebook Devil or Delusion ? The danger of Christianity to Democracy Freedom and Science.       http://t.co/2d1KcJ9V

Offline Foxy Freedom

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1442
  • Darwins +97/-12
  • Why is it so difficult to say you don't know?
    • Foxy Freedom on Doctor Who
Re: ID Proponents - why do you think the bible is true?
« Reply #61 on: February 06, 2014, 02:29:00 PM »
God is immaterial. Immaterial things are not created. Things such as math, thought, & logic are immaterial things.

God doesn't have organs or bones like we do. Material things need to be created.

Besides, you didn't even give an explanation as to how those things could have evolved on their own. If you can't explain it, then it means God is a possibility because you don't know. If you don't know, then you can't rule out God.

Wrong Shep,

science progresses by eliminating false explanations so even if the correct answer is not known, false explanations can certainly be ruled out. Try to remember this, Shep, it is an important principle of clear thinking.
Neither Foxy Freedom nor any associates can be reached via WWGHA. Their official antitheist website is http://the6antitheist6guide6.blogspot.co.uk

The 2nd edition of the free ebook Devil or Delusion ? The danger of Christianity to Democracy Freedom and Science.       http://t.co/2d1KcJ9V

Offline nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6688
  • Darwins +892/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: ID Proponents - why do you think the bible is true?
« Reply #62 on: February 06, 2014, 04:47:46 PM »
That's right, Foxy. One of the best skills kids learn in math class is how to estimate, that is how to eliminate impossible answers and narrow down the possible choices. So, even if the kid does not know the exact answer to:

Solve for a in  2a+2 =12,

they do know that the answer cannot possibly be "3,794" or "the rings of Saturn" or "the Beatles"!

If not knowing the correct answer means that you have to entertain just anything, including all supernatural entities and magical powers, we wouldn't be able to do science at all.

In 1985 nobody knew what caused AIDS. So, according to skeptic, it was therefore equally likely that AIDS was caused by a germ or virus, or by unicorn dandruff, or by my Aunt Sally's Psychic Witch Potion, or by demons from Chinese mythology, or by invisible aliens from across the 8th dimension or by magical poison apples from Snow White. How much research funding would you put towards each of these, skeptic? All are equally likely and none can be ruled out, right?

Throwing millions of bucks towards protecting people from witches and stopping Chinese demons, instead of investigating a virus or germ, would have meant AIDS would still be an automatic death sentence for babies in poor countries today. Because of real science, millions of kids will be able to grow to adulthood, in spite of having the AIDS virus. Thank you, real science. Hopefully, scientists will keep ignoring people like skeptic, even when they are famous, well-funded or popular tv stars.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline skeptic54768

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2647
  • Darwins +52/-435
  • Gender: Male
  • Christianity is the most beautiful religion.
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: ID Proponents - why do you think the bible is true?
« Reply #63 on: February 06, 2014, 07:31:12 PM »
Actually I think math was invented by humans. Neanderthals probably did not do algebra.[1] Algebra was thought up by Muslims in the Middle Ages. Whether that make math material or not, I don't know. :-\
 1. What do bible literalists think of Neanderthals, anyway? They have different bone structure and different DNA from modern humans. When did god make them? Before or after Adam and Eve?

There is still an ongoing debate whether or not math actually exists. Do a google search. Tons of papers written about it. You certainly can't empirically prove that math exists using the human senses. So anyone who is a staunch dogmatic empiricist has a problem when it comes to explaining how they know empirically that math exists.

If math was invented, then it means nothing. All of the scientific findings based on math could be wrong because it's just based on an invention. I have heard that Einstein literally made up a mathematical equation to prove the Earth is rotating. But if people make up equations, how we know they are right? We never can. It's nothing more than a belief, just like we theists.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline One Above All

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 11041
  • Darwins +285/-37
  • Supreme ruler of the multiverse; All In One
Re: ID Proponents - why do you think the bible is true?
« Reply #64 on: February 06, 2014, 07:35:32 PM »
I have heard that Einstein literally made up a mathematical equation to prove the Earth is rotating.

And what does this prove? I heard he made a simple (IMO) logic test that he claimed only 2% of the world's population could solve. He didn't actually create said test, but I heard he did. A story is just a story. I'll let the rest of the forum approach the topic of "Math".
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline jaimehlers

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 4935
  • Darwins +563/-17
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: ID Proponents - why do you think the bible is true?
« Reply #65 on: February 06, 2014, 07:47:37 PM »
There is still an ongoing debate whether or not math actually exists. Do a google search. Tons of papers written about it. You certainly can't empirically prove that math exists using the human senses. So anyone who is a staunch dogmatic empiricist has a problem when it comes to explaining how they know empirically that math exists.
Whether or not math has an independent existence (which is all that the "does math exist" question boils down to) is pretty much irrelevant.  What matters is whether it works - that is to say, whether it's useful.

Quote from: skeptic54768
If math was invented, then it means nothing. All of the scientific findings based on math could be wrong because it's just based on an invention. I have heard that Einstein literally made up a mathematical equation to prove the Earth is rotating. But if people make up equations, how we know they are right? We never can. It's nothing more than a belief, just like we theists.
Yet it works.  Just like science.  And that's what really matters here.  Even if it were just a belief (which I expressly do not concede), it's one that clearly works, unlike theistic beliefs.

Contrast that with your god.

Offline Foxy Freedom

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1442
  • Darwins +97/-12
  • Why is it so difficult to say you don't know?
    • Foxy Freedom on Doctor Who
Re: ID Proponents - why do you think the bible is true?
« Reply #66 on: February 06, 2014, 08:16:30 PM »

There is still an ongoing debate whether or not math actually exists. Do a google search. Tons of papers written about it. You certainly can't empirically prove that math exists using the human senses. So anyone who is a staunch dogmatic empiricist has a problem when it comes to explaining how they know empirically that math exists.

If math was invented, then it means nothing. All of the scientific findings based on math could be wrong because it's just based on an invention. I have heard that Einstein literally made up a mathematical equation to prove the Earth is rotating. But if people make up equations, how we know they are right? We never can. It's nothing more than a belief, just like we theists.

Mathematics was invented for a purpose. First for accounting type things and later used for science.
Call it a cosmic screwdriver if you like.

Mathematics is like a game of chess. You make the rules and you play the game. If you follow the rules the maths is "right". It is possible to make up mathematical rules which are contradictory to reality and don't have applications.
Neither Foxy Freedom nor any associates can be reached via WWGHA. Their official antitheist website is http://the6antitheist6guide6.blogspot.co.uk

The 2nd edition of the free ebook Devil or Delusion ? The danger of Christianity to Democracy Freedom and Science.       http://t.co/2d1KcJ9V

Offline Add Homonym

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2725
  • Darwins +221/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • I can haz jeezusburger™
Re: ID Proponents - why do you think the bible is true?
« Reply #67 on: February 06, 2014, 11:46:02 PM »
I'm not sure where I expressed modality, or where I said that Gods were metaphysical.

Possible worlds / multiple universes = modality.

God as metaphysical was a clear assumption of the discussion I was having; I assumed that you were commenting on that. Apologies if I was mistaken.  :)

A multiverse presumably has all possible worlds, which shouldn't be a modality; except for a person's POV in a universe with no way to sense any other.

Quote
God as metaphysical was a clear assumption of the discussion I was having; I assumed that you were commenting on that. Apologies if I was mistaken.  :)

I'm not sure what metaphysical means. If we have a VR like a first person shooter, then the occupants of the VR would say that the Gods who created it were metaphysical, but the Gods who created it can manifest virtual structures and persons within the VR, then the external world is obviously part of the VR. Further, if we presume (consider the case) that consciousness is some magical property of the external world, then it also intrudes into the VR.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline skeptic54768

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2647
  • Darwins +52/-435
  • Gender: Male
  • Christianity is the most beautiful religion.
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: ID Proponents - why do you think the bible is true?
« Reply #68 on: February 07, 2014, 01:42:44 AM »
Mathematics was invented for a purpose. First for accounting type things and later used for science.
Call it a cosmic screwdriver if you like.

Mathematics is like a game of chess. You make the rules and you play the game. If you follow the rules the maths is "right". It is possible to make up mathematical rules which are contradictory to reality and don't have applications.

if it was made up, then it can not be used as proof for anything. Doing long division by hand or multiplication by hand will prove to you that math was designed by a Creator. The process is too perfect to have been formed on its own.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2647
  • Darwins +52/-435
  • Gender: Male
  • Christianity is the most beautiful religion.
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: ID Proponents - why do you think the bible is true?
« Reply #69 on: February 07, 2014, 01:46:18 AM »
A multiverse presumably has all possible worlds, which shouldn't be a modality; except for a person's POV in a universe with no way to sense any other.

Glad you brought that up about the multiverse. If the universe is indeed infinite like some atheists believe, then it logically follows that God is real, considering in an infinite universe then every possible thing will exist.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2647
  • Darwins +52/-435
  • Gender: Male
  • Christianity is the most beautiful religion.
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: ID Proponents - why do you think the bible is true?
« Reply #70 on: February 07, 2014, 01:49:40 AM »
That's right, Foxy. One of the best skills kids learn in math class is how to estimate, that is how to eliminate impossible answers and narrow down the possible choices. So, even if the kid does not know the exact answer to:

Solve for a in  2a+2 =12,

they do know that the answer cannot possibly be "3,794" or "the rings of Saturn" or "the Beatles"!

If not knowing the correct answer means that you have to entertain just anything, including all supernatural entities and magical powers, we wouldn't be able to do science at all.

In 1985 nobody knew what caused AIDS. So, according to skeptic, it was therefore equally likely that AIDS was caused by a germ or virus, or by unicorn dandruff, or by my Aunt Sally's Psychic Witch Potion, or by demons from Chinese mythology, or by invisible aliens from across the 8th dimension or by magical poison apples from Snow White. How much research funding would you put towards each of these, skeptic? All are equally likely and none can be ruled out, right?

Throwing millions of bucks towards protecting people from witches and stopping Chinese demons, instead of investigating a virus or germ, would have meant AIDS would still be an automatic death sentence for babies in poor countries today. Because of real science, millions of kids will be able to grow to adulthood, in spite of having the AIDS virus. Thank you, real science. Hopefully, scientists will keep ignoring people like skeptic, even when they are famous, well-funded or popular tv stars.

Plenty of people believe that these diseases are created by the companies so that they can make big money on selling the cures. No one is above corruption.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Azdgari

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 12293
  • Darwins +275/-31
  • Gender: Male
Re: ID Proponents - why do you think the bible is true?
« Reply #71 on: February 07, 2014, 01:50:16 AM »
if it was made up, then it can not be used as proof for anything.

It was made up, designed, to be able to prove things.  That's part of what humans created it to do.

Doing long division by hand or multiplication by hand will prove to you that math was designed by a Creator. The process is too perfect to have been formed on its own.

When did God teach the process of long division to humans?
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Online Nam

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 12488
  • Darwins +324/-84
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm on the road less traveled...
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: ID Proponents - why do you think the bible is true?
« Reply #72 on: February 07, 2014, 01:50:33 AM »
A multiverse presumably has all possible worlds, which shouldn't be a modality; except for a person's POV in a universe with no way to sense any other.

Glad you brought that up about the multiverse. If the universe is indeed infinite like some atheists believe, then it logically follows that God is real, considering in an infinite universe then every possible thing will exist.

Wouldn't that mean, by your logic, that an infinite multitude of gods (not just yours) exist?

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline Azdgari

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 12293
  • Darwins +275/-31
  • Gender: Male
Re: ID Proponents - why do you think the bible is true?
« Reply #73 on: February 07, 2014, 01:51:28 AM »
No one is above corruption.

Perhaps not, but repeating the mantra makes it seem like you're using it as an excuse for something...
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline skeptic54768

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2647
  • Darwins +52/-435
  • Gender: Male
  • Christianity is the most beautiful religion.
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: ID Proponents - why do you think the bible is true?
« Reply #74 on: February 07, 2014, 01:54:38 AM »
A multiverse presumably has all possible worlds, which shouldn't be a modality; except for a person's POV in a universe with no way to sense any other.

Glad you brought that up about the multiverse. If the universe is indeed infinite like some atheists believe, then it logically follows that God is real, considering in an infinite universe then every possible thing will exist.

Wouldn't that mean, by your logic, that an infinite multitude of gods (not just yours) exist?

-Nam

No, because God would have to create those gods. There's a reason they are gods and not God. They can not be a god unless they are created by the God.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2647
  • Darwins +52/-435
  • Gender: Male
  • Christianity is the most beautiful religion.
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: ID Proponents - why do you think the bible is true?
« Reply #75 on: February 07, 2014, 01:57:13 AM »
It was made up, designed, to be able to prove things.  That's part of what humans created it to do.

Let's see if you honestly believe that. I will make up a formula and claim it proves something.

This formula proves that I have superpowers and can run through walls:
3(x) +3 = 3
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Azdgari

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 12293
  • Darwins +275/-31
  • Gender: Male
Re: ID Proponents - why do you think the bible is true?
« Reply #76 on: February 07, 2014, 02:10:04 AM »
That has nothing to do with what I said, Skep.  Or even with what you had said, for that matter.

By the way, I'm curious to learn this:

Doing long division by hand or multiplication by hand will prove to you that math was designed by a Creator. The process is too perfect to have been formed on its own.

When did God teach the process of long division to humans?

You said that it happened.  Any details?
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline Azdgari

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 12293
  • Darwins +275/-31
  • Gender: Male
Re: ID Proponents - why do you think the bible is true?
« Reply #77 on: February 07, 2014, 02:12:34 AM »
No, because God would have to create those gods. There's a reason they are gods and not God. They can not be a god unless they are created by the God.

Maybe yours is one of the created ones.  It's not like you can check, after all.
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline ParkingPlaces

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6465
  • Darwins +769/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Hide and Seek World Champion since 1958!
Re: ID Proponents - why do you think the bible is true?
« Reply #78 on: February 07, 2014, 02:23:40 AM »
A multiverse presumably has all possible worlds, which shouldn't be a modality; except for a person's POV in a universe with no way to sense any other.

Glad you brought that up about the multiverse. If the universe is indeed infinite like some atheists believe, then it logically follows that God is real, considering in an infinite universe then every possible thing will exist.

Every possible thing is not the same as every thing that you can imagine. Reality has enough form to avoid being ridiculous.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline Azdgari

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 12293
  • Darwins +275/-31
  • Gender: Male
Re: ID Proponents - why do you think the bible is true?
« Reply #79 on: February 07, 2014, 02:26:06 AM »
No, Skep's right about that one.  If there are infinite permutations of reality in infinite universes, then one of them probably contains a god like the one he imagines.

Appealing to that, though, is a tacit admission that his god only exists in those few other universes.
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline Add Homonym

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2725
  • Darwins +221/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • I can haz jeezusburger™
Re: ID Proponents - why do you think the bible is true?
« Reply #80 on: February 07, 2014, 03:02:41 AM »
A multiverse presumably has all possible worlds, which shouldn't be a modality; except for a person's POV in a universe with no way to sense any other.

Glad you brought that up about the multiverse. If the universe is indeed infinite like some atheists believe, then it logically follows that God is real, considering in an infinite universe then every possible thing will exist.

If God was real in this universe, then we would find clues that the world was 7000 years old, and that we descended from a non-animal ancestor. We would not expect to find 4 billion years of fossils, and see Christians on the losing side of all arguments.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline Ataraxia

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 523
  • Darwins +79/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • "I am large, I contain multitudes."
Re: ID Proponents - why do you think the bible is true?
« Reply #81 on: February 07, 2014, 03:12:47 AM »
A multiverse presumably has all possible worlds, which shouldn't be a modality; except for a person's POV in a universe with no way to sense any other.

Glad you brought that up about the multiverse. If the universe is indeed infinite like some atheists believe, then it logically follows that God is real, considering in an infinite universe then every possible thing will exist.

But you believe your god to have created the universe and therefore be outside of it, so you yourself have put god outside of all things that are possible to exist in an infinite universe. Plus, a universe that is infinite would have always existed and therefore wouldn't require creating.
"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." - Voltaire

Offline penfold

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 681
  • Darwins +63/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • ...buzz buzz buzz...
Re: ID Proponents - why do you think the bible is true?
« Reply #82 on: February 07, 2014, 03:16:19 AM »
Quote
(i) Relationships of identity: x = x (eg. A given hydrogen atom is that hydrogen atom)

Totally not real.  This is a tool of human understanding.  Labels are human-invented and human-applied.  "Hydrogen" is a predictive tool, not some platonic form, and you said you weren't talking about such forms in the first place.

Of course this relationship is real; that something is identical with itself is needed else we fall into Parmenides' problem. If there is no real relationship of identity then there is no real relationship of non-identity (x NOT= y). If there is no real relationship of non-identity then "everything is one" & there is no possibility of change (as change requires interaction between things that are different) and the universe would be static not dynamic.

(ii) Relationships of priority: x is prior to y iff (if ¬x then ¬y) (eg. 1 causation // eg. 2 atoms are prior to molecules)

Sorry, my bad, really wasn't trying to be smug, just bad habit born of posting on philosophy forums  :-[:

Relationships of priority: x is prior to y if and only if it is true that: if not x then not y.

That some things are prior to others can be found throughout nature; both temporarily (causation) and structurally (parts prior to whole etc...). Again I would content that these relationships are real. I think that effect follows cause is not just a human 'way of working' it is as real as any empirical fact. Similarly I think that the priority of parts over the whole (the atomic hypothesis) is also real and not just a human 'way of working'


Quote
So you're saying that the human mind is supernatural?

No I am suggesting that there are abstract entities which we cannot reduce to physical explanation - ie that there is a valid 'way of talking' which cannot be linked to physical processes (eg love) - again I do not plead that these things exist in a manner akin to physical objects. Nonetheless I would claim that they are real. However I do concede that to a strict empiricist it might appear as though I am stretching the word real to breaking point.

ps Sorry for the delay in replying; had to cook my wife dinner  :)
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away." - P.K.D.

Offline Azdgari

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 12293
  • Darwins +275/-31
  • Gender: Male
Re: ID Proponents - why do you think the bible is true?
« Reply #83 on: February 07, 2014, 03:35:10 AM »
It's late and I'm tired.  So I'm only going to respond to this part and address the rest later:

No I am suggesting that there are abstract entities which we cannot reduce to physical explanation - ie that there is a valid 'way of talking' which cannot be linked to physical processes (eg love) - again I do not plead that these things exist in a manner akin to physical objects. Nonetheless I would claim that they are real. However I do concede that to a strict empiricist it might appear as though I am stretching the word real to breaking point.

I believe they are real as well, but to say that "love" is non-physical is to say that human thoughts are non-physical, ie. not generated by the brain.  That is supernaturalism, typically under the label of a "soul".  You're in plenty of company if you hold to this view, but please do own it.
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline penfold

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 681
  • Darwins +63/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • ...buzz buzz buzz...
Re: ID Proponents - why do you think the bible is true?
« Reply #84 on: February 07, 2014, 04:23:14 AM »
I believe they are real as well, but to say that "love" is non-physical is to say that human thoughts are non-physical, ie. not generated by the brain.  That is supernaturalism, typically under the label of a "soul".  You're in plenty of company if you hold to this view, but please do own it.

I only 'own' the view I have outlined; no more no less, with all the caveats.

The language of body/soul and the physical/metaphysical debate is archaic, blunt and loaded with historical baggage. The word soul is a bastard child of Aristotelian thought and Hebrew mysticism; it lacks the resolution needed to really discuss the complexity of what makes up a person.
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away." - P.K.D.

Offline OldChurchGuy

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1529
  • Darwins +101/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • One of those theists who enjoys exchanging ideas
Re: ID Proponents - why do you think the bible is true?
« Reply #85 on: February 07, 2014, 06:31:40 AM »
It was made up, designed, to be able to prove things.  That's part of what humans created it to do.

Let's see if you honestly believe that. I will make up a formula and claim it proves something.

This formula proves that I have superpowers and can run through walls:
3(x) +3 = 3

X = 0

Does this mean I also have superpowers and can run through walls since I solved for X?

Ever curious,

OldChurchGuy
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle - Philo of Alexandria

Whether one believes in a religion or not, and whether one believes in rebirth or not, there isn't anyone who doesn't appreciate kindness and compassion - Dalai Lama

Offline penfold

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 681
  • Darwins +63/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • ...buzz buzz buzz...
Re: ID Proponents - why do you think the bible is true?
« Reply #86 on: February 07, 2014, 06:42:26 AM »
X = 0

Does this mean I also have superpowers and can run through walls since I solved for X?

Will try.

Am going to take the wall and divide it by X.

wait a sec...

Bollocks...

...that seems to have made matters worse...

Oh God ... so many damn walls...
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away." - P.K.D.