Author Topic: Cianobacteria, our little hero  (Read 982 times)

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Offline Godexists

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Cianobacteria, our little hero
« on: January 30, 2014, 11:48:56 PM »
The short argument :

Without cyanobacteria - no fixed nitrogen is available.

Without fixed nitrogen, no DNA, no amino-acids, no protein can be synthesised.

Without DNA, no amino-acids,protein, or cyanobacteria are possible.

Thats called a interdependent system. It cannot have evolved in small steps. All must exist at once.

The long argument :

Could the oxygen and nitrogen cicle be explained by naturalistic means ? The reason for the abundance of oxygen in the atmosphere is the presence of a very large number of organisms which produce oxygen as a byproduct of their metabolism. Cyanobacteria or blue-green algae became the first microbes to produce oxygen by photosynthesis. They are one of the oldest bacteria that live on earth, said to exist perhaps as long  as 3.5 billion years. And their capabilities are nothing more than astounding.  No cianobacteria, no oxygen, no higher life forms. These cianobacterias have incredibly sophisticated enzyme proteins and metabolic pathways, like the electron transport chains, ATP synthase motors, circadian clock, the photosynthetic light reactions, carbon concentration mechanism, and transcriptional regulation , they produce binded nitrogen through nitrogenase, a highly sophisticated mechanism to bind nitrogen, used as a nutrient for plant and animal growth. The Nitrogen cycle is a lot more complex than the carbon cycle. Nitrogen is a very important element. It makes up almost 80% of our atmosphere, and it is an important component of proteins and DNA, both of which are the building blocks of animals and plants. Therefore without nitrogen we would lose one of the most important elements on this planet, along with oxygen, hydrogen and carbon. There are a number of stages to the nitrogen cycle, which involve breaking down and building up nitrogen and it’s various compounds.There is no real starting point for the nitrogen cycle. It is an endless cycle. Potential gaps in the system cannot be reasonably bypassed by inorganic nature alone. It must have a degree of specificity that in all probability could not have been produced by chance. A given function or step in the system may be found in several different unrelated organisms. The removal of any one of the individual biological steps will resort in the loss of function of the system. The data suggest that the nitrogen cycle may be irreducibly interdependent based on the above criteria. No proposed neo-Darwinian mechanisms can explain the origin of such a system.The ultimate source of nitrogen for the biosynthesis of amino acids is atmospheric nitrogen (N2), a nearly inert gas. Its needed by all living things to build proteins and nucleic acids. This is one of the hardest chemical bonds of all to break. So, how can nitrogen be brought out of its tremendous reserves in the atmosphere and into a state where it can be used by living things? To be metabolically useful, atmospheric nitrogen must be reduced. It must be converted to a useful form. Without "fixed" nitrogen, plants, and therefore animals, could not exist as we know them. This process, known as nitrogen fixation, occurs through lightening, but most  in certain types of bacteria, namely cianobacteria. Even though nitrogen is one of the most prominent chemical elements in living systems, N2 is almost unreactive (and very stable) because of its triple bond (N?N). This bond is extremely difficult to break because the three chemical bonds need to be separated and bonded to different compounds. Nitrogenase is the only family of enzymes capable of breaking this bond (i.e., it carries out nitrogen fixation). Nitrogenase is a very complex enzyme system. Nitrogenase genes are distributed throughout the prokaryotic kingdom, including representatives of the Archaea as well as the Eubacteria and Cyanobacteria.With assistance from an energy source (ATP) and a powerful and specific complementary reducing agent (ferredoxin), nitrogen molecules are bound and cleaved with surgical precision. In this way, a ‘molecular sledgehammer’ is applied to the NN bond, and a single nitrogen molecule yields two molecules of ammonia. The ammonia then ascends the ‘food chain’, and is used as amino groups in protein synthesis for plants and animals. This is a very tiny mechanism, but multiplied on a large scale it is of critical importance in allowing plant growth and food production on our planet to continue. ‘Nature is really good at it (nitrogen-splitting), so good in fact that we've had difficulty in copying chemically the essence of what bacteria do so well.’ If one merely substitutes the name of God for the word 'nature', the real picture emerges.These proteins use a collection of metal ions as the electron carriers that are responsible for the reduction of N2 to NH3. All organisms can then use this reduced nitrogen (NH3) to make amino acids. In humans, reduced nitrogen enters the physiological system in dietary sources containing amino acids. One thing is certain—that matter obeying existing laws of chemistry could not have created, on its own, such a masterpiece of chemical engineering.Without cyanobacteria - no fixed nitrogen is available.Without fixed nitrogen, no DNA, no amino-acids, no protein can be synthesised. Without DNA, no amino-acids,protein, or cyanobacteria are possible. So thats a interdependent system.

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Cianobacteria, our little hero
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2014, 11:59:44 PM »
^^ Remember to provide a source for work that isn't yours ( if it isn't), even if originates on another forum.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=9805358#post9805358




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Offline Godexists

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Re: Cianobacteria, our little hero
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2014, 12:03:56 AM »
^^ Remember to provide a source for work that isn't yours ( if it isn't), even if originates on another forum.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=9805358#post9805358

thats my post over there......

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Cianobacteria, our little hero
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2014, 12:08:47 AM »
Fair enough. Probably best to state that up front, as the post was obviously a paste.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Cianobacteria, our little hero
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2014, 12:09:56 AM »
PS, looks like someone disagreed fairly decisively to a key part of the argument on the other forum. Are they correct?

Edit to correct 'agreed' to 'disagreed'
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 12:41:12 AM by magicmiles »
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Cianobacteria, our little hero
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2014, 12:32:04 AM »
And the evidence that cyanobacteria are the only way to fix nitrogen into DNA is...?
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Online jaimehlers

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Re: Cianobacteria, our little hero
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2014, 12:42:16 AM »
Godexists, while I applaud your willingness to learn about biology, you really shouldn't go into it with the assumption that anything that you don't have an explanation for could not have happened by naturalistic means.

It's certainly true that without cyanobacteria, there probably wouldn't be any complex life on Earth.  But that isn't sufficient reason to conclude that the current cycle of nitrogen fixation was necessary before life could exist.  Indeed, lightning is a known way by which molecular nitrogen can be naturally fixed[1], forming various nitrous oxides and thus making nitrogen available before life itself existed.  Indeed, you admitted as much in your post, which leaves me curious why you came to the conclusion that it would have been impossible for early organisms to obtain fixed nitrogen without already having a built-in nitrogen fixation cycle.

In other words, your assertion that the nitrogen fixation cycle could not have formed out of small steps is shown to be false by the fact that fixed nitrogen would have been available through atmospheric lightning and other electrical discharges, making it possible for DNA to come into being without life forms being around to produce fixed nitrogen.
 1. http://www.howstuffworks.com/nitrogen-fixation-info.htm

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Cianobacteria, our little hero
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2014, 01:05:07 AM »
First of all, are you David Demick? (Note: Fixed spelling of last name about five minutes after posting)

Did you write most of this article in "Creation" magazine back in 2002, or did you rip him off? Around here, we immoral atheists prefer that people be up front about their sources.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/cm/v24/n2/hammer

Two: There wasn't a nitrogen cycle until life showed up and some of that life found ways to use nitrogen, and one of the byproducts of said nitrogen cycle was oxygen. It didn't have to happen that way. But we wouldn't be here if it didn't. 

The nitrogen cycle only exists because life created it. Not because life required it.

Ask David how I'm wrong.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 01:09:10 AM by ParkingPlaces »
Not everyone is entitled to their opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline Nam

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Re: Cianobacteria, our little hero
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2014, 02:54:16 AM »
^^ Remember to provide a source for work that isn't yours ( if it isn't), even if originates on another forum.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=9805358#post9805358

thats my post over there......

You still have to cite it. Ex: John Fogerty was sued for plagiarising his own work, and he lost. Now, while it's a forum post "we" do not know 100% that it's your work/comment (even if under the same name), so, you should cite it.

Plagiarism is a huge deal, not just here. Cite it. Period.

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Offline Godexists

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Re: Cianobacteria, our little hero
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2014, 06:19:49 AM »
And the evidence that cyanobacteria are the only way to fix nitrogen into DNA is...?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogen_fixation

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Cianobacteria, our little hero
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2014, 07:02:28 AM »
How do you counter the argument a few posts down by Lukraak_Sisse in http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=9805358#post9805358:

Lukraak_Sisse
Quote
Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
Quote
The short argument :

Without cyanobacteria - no fixed nitrogen is available.
Quote
Wrong, as already pointed out

Quote
Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
Without fixed nitrogen, no DNA, no amino-acids, no protein can be synthesised.
But since the first statement is wrong, so is this. In fact, the nitrogen is often found as cyanide or azide which in a reducing atmosphere readily form DNA like molecules

Quote
Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
Without DNA, no amino-acids,protein, or cyanobacteria are possible.
Amino acids can form perfectly well without DNA, and peptides at least are possible in a reducing atmosphere.

Quote
Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
Thats called a interdependent system. It cannot have evolved in small steps. All must exist at once.
Except all the premises are wrong, so therefore the conclusion is also untenable.

Added, the cyanobacterial (the y in the name is the correct spelling by the way) photosystem is clearly evolved from a duplication of the much older purple bacterial photosystem which also gives energy to a cell without producing oxygen.

None of these statements even need acceptance of abiogenesis or evolution to be known to be wrong by the way. It's simple and well known chemistry which has been shown so often that it's become high school textbook stuff.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Cianobacteria, our little hero
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2014, 08:22:34 AM »
Godexists,

1. You have been trying to baffle people in numerous posts with technical jargon you do not seem to understand. 

Cut it out.

2. You got your ass handed to you in that discussion over at randi.  You should have learned.  Instead, you attempted a do-over, probably in the hopes that no one here was technically expert enough to rebut you.  So you know, that does not make your argument any less wrong.

Cut it out.


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Offline Dante

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Re: Cianobacteria, our little hero
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2014, 08:31:03 AM »
Obviously, Godexists, you're a true believer. And that's fine, in and of itself. But does it ever strike you as strange that the vast majority of scientists on the planet vehemently disagree with the hypotheses you keep plagiarizing putting forward? Don't you find it a little weird that only creationists, and no mainstream, unbiased scientists agree with these premises?

Sure, great discoveries have been made, in the past, going against popular belief of the time. That's a given. And it'll probably happen again in the future. Because that's how science works. Constantly updating our knowledge, and our worldviews. And that's a good thing.

I am curious though; why is it that you attempt to get us skeptics to buy what you're selling? To get us into heaven with you? Is that it? Or is it merely an attempt to strengthen your own belief system? I mean, it's fairly obvious you're not really here, or at JREF, to learn anything about how the 'verse really works, so I'm a bit confused as to why you so diligently engage us.

Look man, if you want to believe that your god created the cosmos 6000 years ago, well, that's your prerogative. But please don't try to pass on your beliefs as true, when they obviously aren't. The earth is much older than 6000 years, evolution works, and while we don't yet know how life started on this planet, the odds of it being a natural explanation are overwhelming, given all the rest of the 'verse can so far be explained naturalistically.

And, if your beliefs turn out to be true, well good for you. But don't hold your breath. Unless, of course, you're in a hurry to meet your maker.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Cianobacteria, our little hero
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2014, 08:51:20 AM »
And the evidence that cyanobacteria are the only way to fix nitrogen into DNA is...?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogen_fixation

I just read that article.  So far as I can see, it says no such thing.  It says that can do it - which is not disputed.  It does not say they are the ONLY things that can do it.  By all means quote the lines that say they are.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Godexists

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Re: Cianobacteria, our little hero
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2014, 09:06:38 AM »
since my contribution is being labelled by the " moderators " as trolling, i won't post here anymore.


Offline Azdgari

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Re: Cianobacteria, our little hero
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2014, 09:26:52 AM »
And the evidence that cyanobacteria are the only way to fix nitrogen into DNA is...?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogen_fixation

From the Wiki page you linked:
Quote
Nitrogen fixation occurs naturally in the air by means of lightning.

So, your own source refutes your claim.  Will you have the integrity to admit you were wrong?  Well, honesty is a sin in your religion, so I'm not holding my breath...
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Cianobacteria, our little hero
« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2014, 09:27:49 AM »
since my contribution is being labelled by the " moderators " as trolling, i won't post here anymore.

What convenient timing.
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Offline Mrjason

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Re: Cianobacteria, our little hero
« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2014, 09:37:29 AM »
And the evidence that cyanobacteria are the only way to fix nitrogen into DNA is...?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogen_fixation

From the Wiki page you linked:
Quote
Nitrogen fixation occurs naturally in the air by means of lightning.

So, your own source refutes your claim.  Will you have the integrity to admit you were wrong?  Well, honesty is a sin in your religion, so I'm not holding my breath...

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Online jaimehlers

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Re: Cianobacteria, our little hero
« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2014, 09:46:14 AM »
Interestingly enough, there's been research that backs up the idea of life coming about underground[1] rather than in surface oceans and lakes.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/life-on-earth-may-have-developed-below-rather-than-above-ground-reveal-scientists-8991601.html

It's especially interesting once you consider that under high temperatures, nitrogen reacts with hydrogen to form ammonia and with oxygen to form nitrous oxides.  Trapped underground, those gases would have been ideal for the formation of DNA-like molecules, and eventually life itself as DNA and RNA reacted with its environment, protected from the hostile conditions at the surface by a thick layer of earth.
 1. Even more interesting, I wasn't aware of it until it occurred to me to wonder about how DNA-like molecules would break down in the absence of life.

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Cianobacteria, our little hero
« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2014, 11:09:17 AM »
Interestingly enough, there's been research that backs up the idea of life coming about underground[1] rather than in surface oceans and lakes.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/life-on-earth-may-have-developed-below-rather-than-above-ground-reveal-scientists-8991601.html

It's especially interesting once you consider that under high temperatures, nitrogen reacts with hydrogen to form ammonia and with oxygen to form nitrous oxides.  Trapped underground, those gases would have been ideal for the formation of DNA-like molecules, and eventually life itself as DNA and RNA reacted with its environment, protected from the hostile conditions at the surface by a thick layer of earth.
 1. Even more interesting, I wasn't aware of it until it occurred to me to wonder about how DNA-like molecules would break down in the absence of life.
The most interesting part about such research is that we may have similar environments to study in our own solar system.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jupiter_Icy_Moon_Explorer
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Offline SevenPatch

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Re: Cianobacteria, our little hero
« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2014, 12:37:35 PM »
Interestingly enough, there's been research that backs up the idea of life coming about underground[1] rather than in surface oceans and lakes.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/life-on-earth-may-have-developed-below-rather-than-above-ground-reveal-scientists-8991601.html

It's especially interesting once you consider that under high temperatures, nitrogen reacts with hydrogen to form ammonia and with oxygen to form nitrous oxides.  Trapped underground, those gases would have been ideal for the formation of DNA-like molecules, and eventually life itself as DNA and RNA reacted with its environment, protected from the hostile conditions at the surface by a thick layer of earth.
 1. Even more interesting, I wasn't aware of it until it occurred to me to wonder about how DNA-like molecules would break down in the absence of life.
The most interesting part about such research is that we may have similar environments to study in our own solar system.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jupiter_Icy_Moon_Explorer

It is quite a shame that the human race is so preoccupied with keeping the status quo rather than focusing on the progression of knowledge.
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Cianobacteria, our little hero
« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2014, 09:54:42 AM »
The short argument :

Without cyanobacteria - no fixed nitrogen is available.
Did anyone note how the OP could not have read what he had written as he has misspelled cynaobacteria in the title, whereas the word appears six times in the text.

It appears that the entire piece is a jigsaw of cut and paste.

The phrase, "blindly trotting out propaganda" springs to mind.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2014, 09:57:06 AM by Graybeard »
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Offline Nam

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Re: Cianobacteria, our little hero
« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2014, 02:31:47 PM »
The short argument :

Without cyanobacteria - no fixed nitrogen is available.
Did anyone note how the OP could not have read what he had written as he has misspelled cynaobacteria in the title, whereas the word appears six times in the text.

It appears that the entire piece is a jigsaw of cut and paste.

The phrase, "blindly trotting out propaganda" springs to mind.

I noticed that a long time ago. I mean who plagiarizes a two line reply to someone?

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Offline wheels5894

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Re: Cianobacteria, our little hero
« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2014, 03:02:26 PM »
Well guys, I hardly think you will be surprised to find this same post as the OP appears here under the username GIBOR. A check of the link will show that the poster was told off for it too! It was also posted here by the user Admin.

This could be the original too

This guy is not original - he has copied but failed the spelling test for the subject as pointed out above.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2014, 03:05:21 PM by wheels5894 »
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Cianobacteria, our little hero
« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2014, 03:21:17 PM »
The short argument :

Without cyanobacteria - no fixed nitrogen is available.
Did anyone note how the OP could not have read what he had written as he has misspelled cynaobacteria in the title, whereas the word appears six times in the text.

It appears that the entire piece is a jigsaw of cut and paste.

The phrase, "blindly trotting out propaganda" springs to mind.

I noticed that a long time ago. I mean who plagiarizes a two line reply to someone?

-Nam

I'm uncertain if it matters, but I think that 'cianobacteria' is not necessarily a misspelling, but rather the Spanish form of 'cyanobacteria'.

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanobacteria
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Offline wheels5894

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Re: Cianobacteria, our little hero
« Reply #25 on: February 05, 2014, 03:27:06 PM »
bang on Dawg! Our OP says he is from Brazil.
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Offline Nam

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Re: Cianobacteria, our little hero
« Reply #26 on: February 05, 2014, 03:38:45 PM »
Well guys, I hardly think you will be surprised to find this same post as the OP appears here under the username GIBOR. A check of the link will show that the poster was told off for it too! It was also posted here by the user Admin.

This could be the original too

This guy is not original - he has copied but failed the spelling test for the subject as pointed out above.

So, he knows he's plagiarizing yet denying he is, from the first link:

Quote
Be careful not to cut and paste in violation of Rule 4. Identify quoted material and do not mix it in with original material in a manner that confuses people as to the original author.

He should be banned from this website based on the fact he knowingly plagiarized and then denied it (angrily, I might add) afterward.

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Offline Nam

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Re: Cianobacteria, our little hero
« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2014, 03:40:08 PM »
The short argument :

Without cyanobacteria - no fixed nitrogen is available.
Did anyone note how the OP could not have read what he had written as he has misspelled cynaobacteria in the title, whereas the word appears six times in the text.

It appears that the entire piece is a jigsaw of cut and paste.

The phrase, "blindly trotting out propaganda" springs to mind.

I noticed that a long time ago. I mean who plagiarizes a two line reply to someone?

-Nam

I'm uncertain if it matters, but I think that 'cianobacteria' is not necessarily a misspelling, but rather the Spanish form of 'cyanobacteria'.

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanobacteria

Why are you replying to me about that?

-Nam
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Cianobacteria, our little hero
« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2014, 03:46:22 PM »
Why are you replying to me about that?

-Nam
My stupidity is probably the best answer to that.  I was reading your reply to Graybeard when I thought of it, and replied to you instead of him.

Sorry 'bout that.
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