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Offline bertatberts

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When I became a christian
« on: January 29, 2014, 09:17:56 AM »
Today I came across two different individuals on the internet, from different parts of the world. Who stated the exact same thing namely "When I became a christian".
So I asked them what they were before, expecting to hear atheist, wiccan, etc. But what I got was they weren't christian though they were brought up in christian households. They became christian later. At no time did they say they were born again christians as I asked that. Can anyone enlighten me to what the heck they are talking about. As they couldn't all they did was say they weren't christian. Which made no sense whatsoever.
We theists have no evidence for our beliefs. So no amount of rational evidence will dissuade us from those beliefs. - JCisall

It would be pretty piss poor brainwashing, if the victims knew they were brainwashed, wouldn't it? - Screwtape. 04/12/12

Offline Graybeard

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Re: When I became a christian
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2014, 09:33:04 AM »
I think they are talking about the difference between a fluffy-bunny, cafeteria, nominal Christian and the evangelical type who attribute absolutely everything to the bounteous joy and love of Jesus (except the garage that they built themselves) and can't stop talking about it.

I think there are probably a few critical neurons that, in some people, link up and join the "wild imagination", "disregard for the obvious" and "compulsion to speak" sections of the brain.
RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: When I became a christian
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2014, 09:47:28 AM »
They probably mean something like confirmation.  Children aren't considered full members of the church until they go through it, and I imagine most sects of Christianity have something like it.  So before then, they might not have been 'actual' Christians.

Online Fiji

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Re: When I became a christian
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2014, 10:13:32 AM »
I recently came across a video where ... what's his name ... Hovind the younger ... explains it as, first he was a christian because everyone around him was evading ta a christian, not thinking about things too much. And only later did he, as Graybeard said, become the 'correct' flavor of christian and start fleecing the dum preaching ... still not thinking, well, at all, really.
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Online Ron Jeremy

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Re: When I became a christian
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2014, 11:39:46 AM »
During our numerous debates, my father-in-law tells me how "....he used to be an atheist like me". So I kept asking; At what point and why did you stop accepting the scientific estimate of Earth age and start believing the Christian view that it is 6000 years old? At what point did you refute evolution (and why) then start believing in the Garden of Eden? What other religions did you examine for truths and reject before accepting the one your mum and dad told you was real? You claim you were never indoctrinated into Christianity; did your school never take you to church? Sing hymns? Say prayers in the morning?
I posit that you were never 'an atheist like me' because you never questioned the Christian religion like I do. I further posit that you were always a Christian as you have always accepted a Christian young earth and literal Genesis, you just didn't pray as much as you do now.
He doesn't use that line any more.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - An example of a clearly demonstrably false biblical 'prophesy'.

The biblical myth of a 6000 year old Earth is proven false by the Gaia satellite directly measuring star age.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: When I became a christian
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2014, 04:00:29 PM »
Today I came across two different individuals on the internet, from different parts of the world. Who stated the exact same thing namely "When I became a christian".
So I asked them what they were before, expecting to hear atheist, wiccan, etc. But what I got was they weren't christian though they were brought up in christian households. They became christian later. At no time did they say they were born again christians as I asked that. Can anyone enlighten me to what the heck they are talking about. As they couldn't all they did was say they weren't christian. Which made no sense whatsoever.

Just look at the bolded. It never makes sense
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: When I became a christian
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2014, 07:00:51 AM »
Today I came across two different individuals on the internet, from different parts of the world. Who stated the exact same thing namely "When I became a christian".
So I asked them what they were before, expecting to hear atheist, wiccan, etc. But what I got was they weren't christian though they were brought up in christian households. They became christian later. At no time did they say they were born again christians as I asked that. Can anyone enlighten me to what the heck they are talking about. As they couldn't all they did was say they weren't christian. Which made no sense whatsoever.

I will speculate they are referring to a specific "born again" experience as Jesus the Christ is quoted as saying.  Similar to Paul's experience on the road to Emmaus when he was struck blind.  There are denominations that claim you are not a true Christian unless you have this "born again" experience.  Put another way, a "born again" experience is a specific date and time when one can say they accepted Jesus the Christ as their personal Lord and Savior.

My two cents,

OldChurchGuy
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Offline bertatberts

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Re: When I became a christian
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2014, 09:15:58 AM »
Today I came across two different individuals on the internet, from different parts of the world. Who stated the exact same thing namely "When I became a christian".
So I asked them what they were before, expecting to hear atheist, wiccan, etc. But what I got was they weren't christian though they were brought up in christian households. They became christian later. At no time did they say they were born again christians as I asked that. Can anyone enlighten me to what the heck they are talking about. As they couldn't all they did was say they weren't christian. Which made no sense whatsoever.

I will speculate they are referring to a specific "born again" experience as Jesus the Christ is quoted as saying.  Similar to Paul's experience on the road to Emmaus when he was struck blind.  There are denominations that claim you are not a true Christian unless you have this "born again" experience.  Put another way, a "born again" experience is a specific date and time when one can say they accepted Jesus the Christ as their personal Lord and Savior.

My two cents,

OldChurchGuy
Thank you for that. However I did ask them if that was what they meant. Also Paul, if he existed at all, which I very much doubt was a lunatic. If I told you I had a vision of Jesus, you'ld tell me to go see a shrink. Yet it is accepted that Paul saw what he claimed, go figure.
We theists have no evidence for our beliefs. So no amount of rational evidence will dissuade us from those beliefs. - JCisall

It would be pretty piss poor brainwashing, if the victims knew they were brainwashed, wouldn't it? - Screwtape. 04/12/12

Offline stuffin

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Re: When I became a christian
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2014, 11:11:13 AM »
They were semi  Christians and made a conscious decision to become full time Christians. Maybe an event, peer pressure or some other catalyst may of had an influence on their decision. My perception of the OP.
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Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: When I became a christian
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2014, 01:29:22 PM »
Today I came across two different individuals on the internet, from different parts of the world. Who stated the exact same thing namely "When I became a christian".
So I asked them what they were before, expecting to hear atheist, wiccan, etc. But what I got was they weren't christian though they were brought up in christian households. They became christian later. At no time did they say they were born again christians as I asked that. Can anyone enlighten me to what the heck they are talking about. As they couldn't all they did was say they weren't christian. Which made no sense whatsoever.

I will speculate they are referring to a specific "born again" experience as Jesus the Christ is quoted as saying.  Similar to Paul's experience on the road to Emmaus when he was struck blind.  There are denominations that claim you are not a true Christian unless you have this "born again" experience.  Put another way, a "born again" experience is a specific date and time when one can say they accepted Jesus the Christ as their personal Lord and Savior.

My two cents,

OldChurchGuy
Thank you for that. However I did ask them if that was what they meant. Also Paul, if he existed at all, which I very much doubt was a lunatic. If I told you I had a vision of Jesus, you'ld tell me to go see a shrink. Yet it is accepted that Paul saw what he claimed, go figure.

My apologies.  I didn't read the original post well enough. 

Very strange (to me anyway) if they weren't referencing a "born again" experience. 

To be honest, I don't know if I would tell you see to a shrink or not.  I suppose it depends on what message Jesus gave you.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle - Philo of Alexandria

Whether one believes in a religion or not, and whether one believes in rebirth or not, there isn't anyone who doesn't appreciate kindness and compassion - Dalai Lama

Offline jdawg70

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Re: When I became a christian
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2014, 01:41:59 PM »
To be honest, I don't know if I would tell you see to a shrink or not.  I suppose it depends on what message Jesus gave you.

Would that apply if we replaced 'Jesus' with 'Napoleon'?

Would the thought that someone would need to see a shrink if Napoleon was talking to them depend on the message Napoleon gave him/her?
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Offline jrtaylor

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Re: When I became a christian
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2014, 02:10:08 PM »
Today I came across two different individuals on the internet, from different parts of the world. Who stated the exact same thing namely "When I became a christian".
So I asked them what they were before, expecting to hear atheist, wiccan, etc. But what I got was they weren't christian though they were brought up in christian households. They became christian later. At no time did they say they were born again christians as I asked that. Can anyone enlighten me to what the heck they are talking about. As they couldn't all they did was say they weren't christian. Which made no sense whatsoever.

Directness is painful but is perhaps the winnowing harp.

Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: When I became a christian
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2014, 02:52:51 PM »
To be honest, I don't know if I would tell you see to a shrink or not.  I suppose it depends on what message Jesus gave you.

Would that apply if we replaced 'Jesus' with 'Napoleon'?

Would the thought that someone would need to see a shrink if Napoleon was talking to them depend on the message Napoleon gave him/her?

Excellent question.

Yes, if Jesus were replaced with Napoleon I would be immediately inclined to think the person is in need of psychiatric help.  That is due primarily because I don't see Napoleon telling someone to love one another and / or to turn the other cheek. 

Because I am a theist who believes that Jesus of Nazareth was God incarnate, I have no problem with the idea God / Jesus may have spoken to the person.  The key, for me, would be the message.  If the message was one of love, acceptance of others, tolerance, etc. then I would be inclined to consider it a message from God / Jesus.  On the other hand, if the message was one of killing all those who do not accept Jesus the Christ as their personal Lord and Savior, or some similar message of violence, then I would be much more inclined to conclude the person needed a psychiatrist.

Yes, I freely admit I am mirroring my theology with the person's message however inconsistent, illogical and/or delusional it sounds.  But I don't know what else to base my conclusions on. 

As always,

OldChurchGuy
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Offline screwtape

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Re: When I became a christian
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2014, 03:10:06 PM »
Directness is painful but is perhaps the winnowing harp.

Hi. 

What's a winnowing harp?  I've never heard of that before.



re: jesus vs napoleon

“The president of the United States has claimed, on more than one occasion, to be in dialogue with God. If he said that he was talking to God through his hairdryer, this would precipitate a national emergency. I fail to see how the addition of a hairdryer makes the claim more ridiculous or offensive.”
? Sam Harris, Letter to a Christian Nation
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: When I became a christian
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2014, 03:17:07 PM »
Directness is painful but is perhaps the winnowing harp.

Hi. 

What's a winnowing harp?  I've never heard of that before.


IIRC It is a half basket intended for seperating chaff from the grain. A rather primitive, yet effective, agricultural instrument. Though calling it by that exact name is rather Welch.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2014, 03:19:01 PM by Hatter23 »
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline screwtape

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Re: When I became a christian
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2014, 03:21:26 PM »
^ Thanks.  I googled it and it did not come to the first page (I know, kinda lazy).  Or, if it did, I missed it.  What I did see was a winnowing fork.  Which is what you describe.

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Offline Hatter23

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Re: When I became a christian
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2014, 03:25:31 PM »
don't take it as gospel, the data is from 15 year old memories from some folklore I was perusing looking for D&D ideas.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline SevenPatch

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Re: When I became a christian
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2014, 05:46:53 PM »
EDIT: useless post.  I have a headache today, sigh.
"Shut him up! We have a lot invested in this ride - SHUT HIM UP! Look at my furrows of worry! Look at my big bank account, and my family! This just HAS to be real!" - Bill Hicks

Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: When I became a christian
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2014, 05:48:30 PM »

Excellent question.

Yes, if Jesus were replaced with Napoleon I would be immediately inclined to think the person is in need of psychiatric help.  That is due primarily because I don't see Napoleon telling someone to love one another and / or to turn the other cheek. 

Because I am a theist who believes that Jesus of Nazareth was God incarnate, I have no problem with the idea God / Jesus may have spoken to the person.  The key, for me, would be the message.  If the message was one of love, acceptance of others, tolerance, etc. then I would be inclined to consider it a message from God / Jesus.  On the other hand, if the message was one of killing all those who do not accept Jesus the Christ as their personal Lord and Savior, or some similar message of violence, then I would be much more inclined to conclude the person needed a psychiatrist.

Yes, I freely admit I am mirroring my theology with the person's message however inconsistent, illogical and/or delusional it sounds.  But I don't know what else to base my conclusions on. 

As always,

OldChurchGuy

I think the problem is, even if it is a good message, what guarantee do we have that a bad message isn't given at a later time.

I don't. 

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy
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Offline SevenPatch

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Re: When I became a christian
« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2014, 05:50:37 PM »

Excellent question.

Yes, if Jesus were replaced with Napoleon I would be immediately inclined to think the person is in need of psychiatric help.  That is due primarily because I don't see Napoleon telling someone to love one another and / or to turn the other cheek. 

Because I am a theist who believes that Jesus of Nazareth was God incarnate, I have no problem with the idea God / Jesus may have spoken to the person.  The key, for me, would be the message.  If the message was one of love, acceptance of others, tolerance, etc. then I would be inclined to consider it a message from God / Jesus.  On the other hand, if the message was one of killing all those who do not accept Jesus the Christ as their personal Lord and Savior, or some similar message of violence, then I would be much more inclined to conclude the person needed a psychiatrist.

Yes, I freely admit I am mirroring my theology with the person's message however inconsistent, illogical and/or delusional it sounds.  But I don't know what else to base my conclusions on. 

As always,

OldChurchGuy

I think the problem is, even if it is a good message, what guarantee do we have that a bad message isn't given at a later time.

I don't. 

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

Yeah. sorry OCG, I seen that you mentioned that after I posted which made my post kind of useless for the discussion.  I'm going to blame my headache.
"Shut him up! We have a lot invested in this ride - SHUT HIM UP! Look at my furrows of worry! Look at my big bank account, and my family! This just HAS to be real!" - Bill Hicks

Offline Quesi

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Re: When I became a christian
« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2014, 07:18:22 PM »
Hey OCG-

May I ask you a few related questions?  I value your candor, and I'd be really interested in hearing your response. 

Do you think that God (the pre-Jesus God) really visited Abraham and told him to sacrifice his son?  Or is it just a made up story meant to illustrate the importance of not questioning God's will? 

And if it is just a made up story about not questioning God, isn't it kind of dangerous to have such an ambiguous line of communication with God, that can be so easily misunderstood, and potentially so harmful? 

If you believe that it is a true story, do you think that the post-Jesus God could potentially test the faith of his followers in a similar manner?

Do you think that anyone who hears instructions from God that relate to sacrificing or harming another human being is really just crazy?  Or is it possible that God might make that sort of request now?

I imagine that there will probably be a difference of opinion among the various monotheists here.  Although I am directing the question to OCG, I welcome answers from any other believers. 

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: When I became a christian
« Reply #21 on: January 30, 2014, 07:50:18 PM »
When you have attained wealth or some other aspect that you feel comfy with life it is easy to attribute all you have to a loving God. it is also easy to ignore the negative things that God does NOTHING about.

 I have never met a Christian in an uncomfortable position in life,sure some may be battling the demons of the past like alcohol,but nonetheless are comfy.

 Ever see a homeless Christian? more important ever see a Christian open their home to a homeless person?
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: When I became a christian
« Reply #22 on: January 30, 2014, 08:00:27 PM »
^^ All this suggests is that your own life is comfortably middle class and you don't have a clue about much of the world beyond injustices to native Americans.

One of the stupidest posts I've ever seen.



The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: When I became a christian
« Reply #23 on: January 30, 2014, 08:06:30 PM »
prove me wrong MM,then tell me what God does to help those Christians in dire need of food,shelter,clothing in impoverished parts of the world. Generally in the western world are Christians comfy or are they suffering?
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Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: When I became a christian
« Reply #24 on: January 30, 2014, 08:16:55 PM »
Quote
Hey OCG-

May I ask you a few related questions?  I value your candor, and I'd be really interested in hearing your response. 

Do you think that God (the pre-Jesus God) really visited Abraham and told him to sacrifice his son?  Or is it just a made up story meant to illustrate the importance of not questioning God's will?
 

I honestly don't know.  I lean more toward the idea it is a symbolic story designed to explain what true faith and trust in God is like. 


Quote
And if it is just a made up story about not questioning God, isn't it kind of dangerous to have such an ambiguous line of communication with God, that can be so easily misunderstood, and potentially so harmful?

I'm not sure I understand the question.  If this is not a literal story, how is there dangerous ambiguous communication with God?

Quote
If you believe that it is a true story, do you think that the post-Jesus God could potentially test the faith of his followers in a similar manner?

 I have met and talked with people who felt post-Jesus God was testing them.  But not to the extent of killing a loved one.  So, yes, people may be tested but, no, not to the point of killing a loved one. 

Quote
Do you think that anyone who hears instructions from God that relate to sacrificing or harming another human being is really just crazy?  Or is it possible that God might make that sort of request now?

Yes, I think anyone who hears instructions from God relating to sacrifice or harming another person is suffering some kind of cerebral dysfunction (a nice generic term which can cover a multitude of ailments).

Quote
I imagine that there will probably be a difference of opinion among the various monotheists here.  Although I am directing the question to OCG, I welcome answers from any other believers.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: When I became a christian
« Reply #25 on: January 30, 2014, 08:17:08 PM »
prove me wrong MM,then tell me what God does to help those Christians in dire need of food,shelter,clothing in impoverished parts of the world.

That isn't what you posted. That's a completely different question.


Generally in the western world are Christians comfy or are they suffering?

In the western world Christians are comfy compared to those in the third world, like everyone else. Some are very wealthy, some are reasonably wealthy, some are poor (comparatively)

You made a ridiculous suggestion that Christians are all comfortable, and even more ridiculously you suggested that Christians don't do anything to help those suffering.

I could post literally 1000 different sources that demonstrate just how stupid your suggestion is. I don't feel the need to actually do so as I know you will be in a massive minority with your suggestion.
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: When I became a christian
« Reply #26 on: January 30, 2014, 08:23:07 PM »
^^ All this suggests is that your own life is comfortably middle class and you don't have a clue about much of the world beyond injustices to native Americans.

One of the stupidest posts I've ever seen.
See you are a comfy middle class family man,am I correct in assuming this?

 You can attribute all that is good to God and all that is bad to the evils of free-will used in a negative or evil way. How can God possibly lose or fail you or even to test your faith?
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: When I became a christian
« Reply #27 on: January 30, 2014, 08:28:51 PM »
Where did I state Christians do nothing....the quote you have there asks what God does for the less fortunate Christians....not what other Christians do. I still stand by and say its easy even for the working poor in the western world to attribute anything to God,while they dismiss that he does nothing to help the poor in other nations.

 Drought is a fine example of God either doing NOTHING,,,,,or is he punishing those poor starving Christians,or is he motivating you a comfy Christian to DO MORE?
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline magicmiles

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Re: When I became a christian
« Reply #28 on: January 30, 2014, 08:29:33 PM »
^^ All this suggests is that your own life is comfortably middle class and you don't have a clue about much of the world beyond injustices to native Americans.

One of the stupidest posts I've ever seen.
See you are a comfy middle class family man,am I correct in assuming this?

 You can attribute all that is good to God and all that is bad to the evils of free-will used in a negative or evil way. How can God possibly lose or fail you or even to test your faith?

I don't give a shit about this part of your original post. Think what you bloody want.

There are millions of people throughout the world with faith in God who live very hard lives, and countless Christians throughout the world who sacrificially provide for and serve those less fortunate.
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.