Author Topic: Religion belief is not a natural human state  (Read 1632 times)

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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Religion belief is not a natural human state
« Reply #58 on: February 03, 2014, 10:25:10 AM »
Guys,

The main problem is that you are not offering any reasons why the religion is wrong. OK fine you don't believe it, but if you don't have any reasons to think it's wrong other than, "I just don't believe it," then you can't expect people to just drop the belief.

You guys having a feeling that it's wrong is the same as us having a feeling that it's right, expect we try to back it up. You guys just seem to have no reasons why a person should think it's wrong.

You live in a world where entities of significant power - gods and demons - continuously engage in cognitive power plays for the hearts and minds of human beings (and potentially other sentient entities).  Where people believe false religious constructs as a result of demonic trickery.  Where people believe true religious constructs as a result of divine revelation.  Where differentiation of 'revelation of demon' vs. 'revelation of god' is determined strictly through your interpretation of a really old book that has suffered through the longest game of 'telephone' in existence (through a multitude of different languages and political climates I might add).  Where a large portion of humanity is dedicating itself towards falsifying information and spreading lies in a concerted effort to suppress knowledge of this god entity's existence, and is able to succeed in that goal.

It may very well be impossible to prove you wrong regarding the existence of this god of yours.  But the question of the existence of an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving god entity?

The god you propose - pitifully weak.  Humanity can hide his existence from itself with mere words.  Demons can frustrate god's plans with practically no effort.  This god seems unable - seems to lack the power - to do anything about these demons.  This god's wants, needs, desires, plans...so easily frustrated.

The god you propose - incompetently stupid.  It counts on a glorified game of telephone with a poetic book that is intended to serve as the instruction manual to life and existence.  It takes no time to update it; to directly clarify what it is he means about anything; to provide additional tools for humanity to discern between the divine and the demonic.  It takes no measures to prevent demons from running around tricking the people it purports to love so much.

The god you propose - devoid of any emotion close to 'love'.  It routinely hangs out and allows atrocities to befall mankind, or prescribes atrocities in response to some ill-defined presence of 'sin', which, funnily enough, the prescribed atrocity and punishment needs to be properly decoded (by people who may or may not be misled by a demon) before anyone understands how we are to respond to the event in order to placate god.  It apparently needed to test the devotion of at least one of it's followers by asking him to murder his child.

This god of yours, skeptic54768, is one sad, pathetic, childish deity.  This god of yours, skeptic54768, doesn't need your praise and worship.  It needs your pity and sympathy.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
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Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Religion belief is not a natural human state
« Reply #59 on: February 03, 2014, 06:47:21 PM »
I can only notice that he dodged the previous question without further argument, or concession.

So Skeptic, is religion a natural state?
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Re: Religion belief is not a natural human state
« Reply #60 on: February 03, 2014, 08:12:25 PM »
I just thought of something else. Belief in a god or gods might be the product of natural cognitive processes. So are hysterical pregnancy, schizophrenia, autism and Tourette's syndrome.

Even if religious belief is a natural human state, that does not in any way mean that a particular religion is true. It just shows that human brains can come up with weird sh!t sometimes.  Before we figured out what went on in the brain to cause dreams, people thought they were communications from the great beyond. Nightmares and dreams are products of a natural human state, but are not true reflections of reality.

Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Religion belief is not a natural human state
« Reply #61 on: February 03, 2014, 08:23:00 PM »
Guys,

The main problem is that you are not offering any reasons why the religion is wrong. OK fine you don't believe it, but if you don't have any reasons to think it's wrong other than, "I just don't believe it," then you can't expect people to just drop the belief.

You guys having a feeling that it's wrong is the same as us having a feeling that it's right, expect we try to back it up. You guys just seem to have no reasons why a person should think it's wrong.

Says trolly the trolly troll, who never reads any posts.

The Bible is wall-to-wall wrong. If I wanted to carpet my house in wrong, I would use the Bible.
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Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Religion belief is not a natural human state
« Reply #62 on: February 03, 2014, 08:31:23 PM »
schizophrenia,

Schizophrenia and dementia are probably the origin of religion. About .7% of the modern population suffers from it. Even if you didn't believe in anything (prior), after seeing a schizophrenic, you would come to believe that there were invisible entities all around you, usually with malicious intent. It's without a doubt where we get demons from. People witnessing a "paranoid" schizophrenic would either see somebody off their rocker, for no apparent reason, or be convinced that something was controlling them. Even schizophrenics who are in a disassociated state say that any act they do, seems like they were just witnessing it, and they weren't in control.

After seeing wind and lightning, you might think that there was some spooky invisible thing in control of objects. I think it would actually take some courage to stand up against your perceptions, and realise that there is no entity behind it.
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Religion belief is not a natural human state
« Reply #63 on: February 04, 2014, 03:02:44 AM »
Guys,

The main problem is that you are not offering any reasons why the religion is wrong. OK fine you don't believe it, but if you don't have any reasons to think it's wrong other than, "I just don't believe it," then you can't expect people to just drop the belief.

You guys having a feeling that it's wrong is the same as us having a feeling that it's right, expect we try to back it up. You guys just seem to have no reasons why a person should think it's wrong.

You live in a world where entities of significant power - gods and demons - continuously engage in cognitive power plays for the hearts and minds of human beings (and potentially other sentient entities).  Where people believe false religious constructs as a result of demonic trickery.  Where people believe true religious constructs as a result of divine revelation.  Where differentiation of 'revelation of demon' vs. 'revelation of god' is determined strictly through your interpretation of a really old book that has suffered through the longest game of 'telephone' in existence (through a multitude of different languages and political climates I might add).  Where a large portion of humanity is dedicating itself towards falsifying information and spreading lies in a concerted effort to suppress knowledge of this god entity's existence, and is able to succeed in that goal.

It may very well be impossible to prove you wrong regarding the existence of this god of yours.  But the question of the existence of an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving god entity?

The god you propose - pitifully weak.  Humanity can hide his existence from itself with mere words.  Demons can frustrate god's plans with practically no effort.  This god seems unable - seems to lack the power - to do anything about these demons.  This god's wants, needs, desires, plans...so easily frustrated.

The god you propose - incompetently stupid.  It counts on a glorified game of telephone with a poetic book that is intended to serve as the instruction manual to life and existence.  It takes no time to update it; to directly clarify what it is he means about anything; to provide additional tools for humanity to discern between the divine and the demonic.  It takes no measures to prevent demons from running around tricking the people it purports to love so much.

The god you propose - devoid of any emotion close to 'love'.  It routinely hangs out and allows atrocities to befall mankind, or prescribes atrocities in response to some ill-defined presence of 'sin', which, funnily enough, the prescribed atrocity and punishment needs to be properly decoded (by people who may or may not be misled by a demon) before anyone understands how we are to respond to the event in order to placate god.  It apparently needed to test the devotion of at least one of it's followers by asking him to murder his child.

This god of yours, skeptic54768, is one sad, pathetic, childish deity.  This god of yours, skeptic54768, doesn't need your praise and worship.  It needs your pity and sympathy.

Who says that God gets frustrated?
God is the one sitting pretty until the end times. He's got nothing to worry about and no frustrations.

Imagine Muhammad Ali in his prime being challenged to a fight by a 5 year old kid. All Ali's gonna do is laugh and pat the kid on the head no matter how much the kid is screaming to fight Ali.
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Offline Ataraxia

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Re: Religion belief is not a natural human state
« Reply #64 on: February 04, 2014, 03:10:57 AM »
Who says that God gets frustrated?
God is the one sitting pretty until the end times. He's got nothing to worry about and no frustrations.

Imagine Muhammad Ali in his prime being challenged to a fight by a 5 year old kid. All Ali's gonna do is laugh and pat the kid on the head no matter how much the kid is screaming to fight Ali.

Really, pat the 5 year old on the head? I thought it wasn't unlike god to get one of his oppos to run a sword through such youngsters?
"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." - Voltaire

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Religion belief is not a natural human state
« Reply #65 on: February 04, 2014, 03:53:19 AM »
Who says that God gets frustrated?
God is the one sitting pretty until the end times. He's got nothing to worry about and no frustrations.

Try the second definition of frustrated. https://www.google.com.au/#q=define+frustrated
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Religion belief is not a natural human state
« Reply #66 on: February 04, 2014, 08:18:03 AM »

Imagine Muhammad Ali in his prime being challenged to a fight by a 5 year old kid. All Ali's gonna do is laugh and pat the kid on the head no matter how much the kid is screaming to fight Ali.

Unless, of course, the kid has an iron chariot.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Religion belief is not a natural human state
« Reply #67 on: February 04, 2014, 08:38:10 AM »
Imagine Muhammad Ali in his prime being challenged to a fight by a 5 year old kid. All Ali's gonna do is laugh and pat the kid on the head no matter how much the kid is screaming to fight Ali.

The five year old then repeatedly punches Muhammad Ali in the groin.

Being a mere (although well trained and fit) human, Muhammad Ali falls to the ground in pain.

Your point is?
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Offline Quesi

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Re: Religion belief is not a natural human state
« Reply #68 on: February 04, 2014, 10:10:28 AM »
Guys,

The main problem is that you are not offering any reasons why the religion is wrong. OK fine you don't believe it, but if you don't have any reasons to think it's wrong other than, "I just don't believe it," then you can't expect people to just drop the belief.

You guys having a feeling that it's wrong is the same as us having a feeling that it's right, expect we try to back it up. You guys just seem to have no reasons why a person should think it's wrong.

Sometimes it is just hard to know where to start. 

But let's start at the beginning. 


Offline jdawg70

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Re: Religion belief is not a natural human state
« Reply #69 on: February 04, 2014, 10:31:07 AM »
Who says that God gets frustrated?
God is the one sitting pretty until the end times. He's got nothing to worry about and no frustrations.
As per Add Homonym, try the other definition of the word 'frustrated'.

Quote
Imagine Muhammad Ali in his prime being challenged to a fight by a 5 year old kid. All Ali's gonna do is laugh and pat the kid on the head no matter how much the kid is screaming to fight Ali.
You know, I have a different analogy in mind.

Imagine a person that an audience member is claiming to be Muhammad Ali in his prime.  This audience member points - at a crippled old white man in a wheelchair under heavy sedation, handcuffed, blindfolded, and wearing heavy duty ear muffs.  A 5 year old kid comes up and challenges this person to a fight.

The audience member keeps waxing and waning about how Muhammad Ali is just going to laugh and pat the kid on the head.
"Look at how strong Muhammad Ali is!"
"What is that kid thinking?  Muhammad Ali is going to wreck him!"
"That Muhammad Ali is a really nice guy!  I remember the story where he saved that entire bus full of nuns with his bare hands!  He leaped over a tall building just to get to the burning bus in time!"
"I mean...just so powerful.  What an amazing boxing champion Muhammad Ali is!  Look at how he just floats like a butterfly!  How he stings like a bee!"

I look at the kid, the old man in the wheelchair, and wonder what the hell the audience member is even talking about at this point.  Then, suddenly, the kid asks the old white man in the wheelchair - "Are you Muhammad Ali?"  At which point, the audience member jumps up and down, screaming at the kid that "of course it's Muhammad Ali!  Look at how strong and powerful he is!"

The kid and I share a look, briefly glance at the audience member, and back away very slowly...
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Religion belief is not a natural human state
« Reply #70 on: February 04, 2014, 11:46:20 AM »
Guys,

The main problem is that you are not offering any reasons why the religion is wrong. OK fine you don't believe it, but if you don't have any reasons to think it's wrong other than, "I just don't believe it," then you can't expect people to just drop the belief.

You guys having a feeling that it's wrong is the same as us having a feeling that it's right, expect we try to back it up. You guys just seem to have no reasons why a person should think it's wrong.

Sometimes it is just hard to know where to start. 

But let's start at the beginning. 



Excellent! Let's expand on that picture.

According to cosmologists, the universe is about 14 billion years old. Yet, our sun wasn't formed until about 5 billion years ago. How do they know how much time had passed before the sun was formed?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Quesi

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Re: Religion belief is not a natural human state
« Reply #71 on: February 04, 2014, 12:51:44 PM »

Excellent! Let's expand on that picture.

According to cosmologists, the universe is about 14 billion years old. Yet, our sun wasn't formed until about 5 billion years ago. How do they know how much time had passed before the sun was formed?

Oh my.  Sometimes your questions are difficult to respond to.

First of all, I’m not sure you even understood the joke from my silly little facebook link.  Let me spell it out.  According to Genesis:

And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.
14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.


So you see, back then, when this story was written, no one knew that the earth was a globe that rotated around the sun.  Or that evening and morning were a result of that rotation.  Or that in the absence of the sun, there would be no evening or morning.

I’m sure someone has come up with a good work-around to try and explain this, because there are a lot of folks who are so invested in protecting the scriptures, even the parts of the scriptures which have been disproven by science, that they stand on their heads to come up with bizarre explanations. 

But back to your question.  You want to know how the age of the universe is calculated?  I’m not an astrophysicist, so I’m probably not the best person to try to explain it. 

Could you remind me again what parts of science your religious beliefs allow you to accept?  Do you believe that our sun is a star in a galaxy which houses billions of stars?  Do you believe that there are billions of galaxies in the observable universe?   Do you accept the idea that the amount of time it takes light to travel one year is a light year?   Do you believe in the observable universe?

Here are a few wikipedia links that might help you.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_the_universe  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observable_universe  I would also highly recommend a trip to the Hayden Planetarium, if you ever find yourself in NYC. 

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Re: Religion belief is not a natural human state
« Reply #72 on: February 04, 2014, 01:28:41 PM »
How do they know how much time had passed before the sun was formed?

if you were genuinely curious, you'd have looked it up yourself, expanded your knowledge and been the better for it.  No need to ask us to do that work for you.  Do why don't you do that, and then come back here and give us a report?
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Religion belief is not a natural human state
« Reply #73 on: February 04, 2014, 01:49:24 PM »
Excellent! Let's expand on that picture.

According to cosmologists, the universe is about 14 billion years old. Yet, our sun wasn't formed until about 5 billion years ago. How do they know how much time had passed before the sun was formed?
They pulled the information from a really, really old book written in cryptic poetic language.

Not satisfying for some reason?
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Online jaimehlers

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Re: Religion belief is not a natural human state
« Reply #74 on: February 04, 2014, 02:52:58 PM »
Excellent! Let's expand on that picture.

According to cosmologists, the universe is about 14 billion years old. Yet, our sun wasn't formed until about 5 billion years ago. How do they know how much time had passed before the sun was formed?
http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=45

It's based on the Hubble constant, the proportion between the distance to a galaxy and its recessional velocity (velocity away from us).  Since the proportion seems to be constant (things further away from us appear to be moving faster), that's where the Hubble constant comes from, and thus the age of the universe is (roughly) the reciprocal of the Hubble constant.

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Re: Religion belief is not a natural human state
« Reply #75 on: February 04, 2014, 04:39:04 PM »
^^^^See?  Science. Anyone can do it, from any religion, or no religion.

You don't have to just have faith and believe something that seems to be nonsense, and make lots of excuses as to why it doesn't reflect reality. Science is not frozen in time or beholden to any authority. If someone from Bangalore comes along and can show that the Hubble constant is not related to the age of the universe, we can test their idea. If it is true, science changes accordingly and someone from Bangalore gets a Nobel Prize.

With religious faith, new information cannot be incorporated if it contradicts the belief. Even if the new idea is shown to be true, religion resists change at all costs and Giordano Bruno gets burned at the stake.

That is the difference.

ps Since it is easy to believe obvious nonsense and hard to go against it, I would argue that science is unnatural to the human state. Again, that in no way makes science wrong. Just harder to do.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.