Author Topic: Why did God make me an atheist?  (Read 1888 times)

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Offline Jesuis

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Re: Why did God make me an atheist?
« Reply #29 on: February 12, 2014, 09:20:19 PM »
God did not make you an atheist - you came to that conclusion all on your own through your thinking.  Thinking has made you into an atheist.

god didn't make you a theist. You were programmed from a young age to believe in a god. Having a brain that is susceptible to taking in all information, irrespective of its validity, and being born into a culture where religion is pervasive has made you into a theist.
To some extent true. That is why there are rules to humanity for the sake of the innocent and pure. For instance it is birth that cuddles me and nourishes me. And it is this love and compassion that responds to the hierarchy established before my birth. It is for my Mother to tell me this is my father and to reinforce that truth. If she is lying and so is the father I have been deceived by the corrupt inhumane parentage.  Rules have a purpose and without it the liars corrupt everyone.  Theist know God others who do not know should say they do not know. There is a method to knowing anything.
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why did God make me an atheist?
« Reply #30 on: February 12, 2014, 11:10:35 PM »

It is the highest human condition to try and find the truth rather than stagnate and do nothing.

From a man who believes in the words of a 2000 1700 year old book over those who used logic and inquiry????

Are you really trying to be that ironic?
« Last Edit: February 12, 2014, 11:17:44 PM by Hatter23 »
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Why did God make me an atheist?
« Reply #31 on: February 12, 2014, 11:43:57 PM »
A theist does not create a religion nor does he make one.
Wrong.  All theists create their own religious beliefs, and no two are the same.  That's because of the way the human mind works.

Quote from: Jesuis
His goal historically is to remind man of the path to knowing and becoming a more highly evolved humane human being
Sounds like you're describing Buddhistm here, since that's how a Bodhisattva works.  But the vast majority of theists (especially Christians and Muslims) are not in it to become a "more highly evolved humane human being".  They're in it for the free immortality plus benefits after they die.

Quote from: Jesuis
through awareness of the effects of his own thoughts words and deeds on others as they all have consequences either raising or lowering the child humanity.
What you're describing here is morality, which is not dependent on theism.  Morality is simply a codified system of behaviors that allow us to get along with other people.

Quote from: Jesuis
Man makes religion on the teachings of a theist and on the belief they have in him. A theist is one who knows God whereby the rest of us are atheists with beliefs.
So how do you tell which are the actual theists and which are the "atheists with beliefs"?  You see, EVERY theist holds this opinion about everyone who doesn't hold to their own beliefs (and usually to a specific creed as well), and the vast majority of them hold that opinion honestly.  Ironically, the ones who are least blinkered are the ones who actually declare themselves atheists. 

Offline Jesuis

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Re: Why did God make me an atheist?
« Reply #32 on: February 13, 2014, 12:51:03 AM »

It is the highest human condition to try and find the truth rather than stagnate and do nothing.

From a man who believes in the words of a 2000 1700 year old book over those who used logic and inquiry????

Are you really trying to be that ironic?
Where did you get this idea from?
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why did God make me an atheist?
« Reply #33 on: February 13, 2014, 01:35:12 AM »

It is the highest human condition to try and find the truth rather than stagnate and do nothing.

From a man who believes in the words of a 2000 1700 year old book over those who used logic and inquiry????

Are you really trying to be that ironic?
Where did you get this idea from?

Gee
Quote
"In the beginning was the WORD and the WORD was with God and the WORD was God." and the Word became Flesh.
What is the WORD?

I wonder?
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Jesuis

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Re: Why did God make me an atheist?
« Reply #34 on: February 13, 2014, 02:14:11 AM »

It is the highest human condition to try and find the truth rather than stagnate and do nothing.

From a man who believes in the words of a 2000 1700 year old book over those who used logic and inquiry????

Are you really trying to be that ironic?
Where did you get this idea from?

Gee
Quote
"In the beginning was the WORD and the WORD was with God and the WORD was God." and the Word became Flesh.
What is the WORD?

I wonder?
Does not mean I believe in the book. Does it? I may see truth of a sentence. For instance "Thou shall not lie" if quoted does not mean I believe in the book of Moses either - I may believe in the truth that there are consequences if one lies etc.
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline Ataraxia

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Re: Why did God make me an atheist?
« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2014, 02:40:44 AM »
God did not make you an atheist - you came to that conclusion all on your own through your thinking.  Thinking has made you into an atheist.

I didn't think about being an atheist, I just stuck to the position I was born with.
Thinking is not associated with birth. Experience is.

Thanks for highlighting my point.
"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." - Voltaire

Offline Mrjason

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Re: Why did God make me an atheist?
« Reply #36 on: February 13, 2014, 06:28:50 AM »
God did not make you an atheist - you came to that conclusion all on your own through your thinking.  Thinking has made you into an atheist.

god didn't make you a theist. You were programmed from a young age to believe in a god. Having a brain that is susceptible to taking in all information, irrespective of its validity, and being born into a culture where religion is pervasive has made you into a theist.
To some extent true. That is why there are rules to humanity for the sake of the innocent and pure. For instance it is birth that cuddles me and nourishes me. And it is this love and compassion that responds to the hierarchy established before my birth. It is for my Mother to tell me this is my father and to reinforce that truth. If she is lying and so is the father I have been deceived by the corrupt inhumane parentage.  Rules have a purpose and without it the liars corrupt everyone.  Theist know God others who do not know should say they do not know. There is a method to knowing anything.

I don't really understand the relevance of most of your post so I'll respond to the bit that is bolded.

There is a method to knowing things. It is unbiased critical thinking. Experience on its own does not lead to knowledge.

Offline Tonus

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Re: Why did God make me an atheist?
« Reply #37 on: February 13, 2014, 12:55:58 PM »
God did not make you an atheist - you came to that conclusion all on your own through your thinking.  Thinking has made you into an atheist.
Thinking was an important part of it, yes.  Doing so with an open mind and a willingness to test the things that I believed was also very important.  The latter allowed me to recognize which beliefs I could verify, and which were baseless.  And that allowed me to free myself from ancient superstitious ideas that continue to hold far too many people captive today.

Offline Jesuis

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Re: Why did God make me an atheist?
« Reply #38 on: February 13, 2014, 04:19:44 PM »
God did not make you an atheist - you came to that conclusion all on your own through your thinking.  Thinking has made you into an atheist.

I didn't think about being an atheist, I just stuck to the position I was born with.
Thinking is not associated with birth. Experience is.

Thanks for highlighting my point.
Such experiences cannot be put into words - it is divine and pure,  unfortunately this state of being conscious without thought is quickly robbed from us as we begin to become more and more sense aware of the physical body and learn to use it by connecting to the environment via the senses that pull our attention to that level of experience.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 04:22:55 PM by Jesuis »
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline Ataraxia

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Re: Why did God make me an atheist?
« Reply #39 on: February 13, 2014, 04:21:40 PM »
God did not make you an atheist - you came to that conclusion all on your own through your thinking.  Thinking has made you into an atheist.

I didn't think about being an atheist, I just stuck to the position I was born with.
Thinking is not associated with birth. Experience is.

Thanks for highlighting my point.
Such experiences cannot be put into words it is divine and pure but that is quickly robbed from us as we begin to become more and more sense aware as we connect more and more with the senses that pull our attention to that level of experience.

Can I have some meat with that word salad?
"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." - Voltaire

Offline Jesuis

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Re: Why did God make me an atheist?
« Reply #40 on: February 13, 2014, 04:26:11 PM »
God did not make you an atheist - you came to that conclusion all on your own through your thinking.  Thinking has made you into an atheist.

I didn't think about being an atheist, I just stuck to the position I was born with.
Thinking is not associated with birth. Experience is.

Thanks for highlighting my point.
Such experiences cannot be put into words it is divine and pure but that is quickly robbed from us as we begin to become more and more sense aware as we connect more and more with the senses that pull our attention to that level of experience.

Can I have some meat with that word salad?
Sorry.
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why did God make me an atheist?
« Reply #41 on: February 13, 2014, 05:00:10 PM »
Did we establish that Jesuis is not a native English speaker? These posts read as if they went through google translate.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Jesuis

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Re: Why did God make me an atheist?
« Reply #42 on: February 13, 2014, 07:09:13 PM »
God did not make you an atheist - you came to that conclusion all on your own through your thinking.  Thinking has made you into an atheist.

god didn't make you a theist. You were programmed from a young age to believe in a god. Having a brain that is susceptible to taking in all information, irrespective of its validity, and being born into a culture where religion is pervasive has made you into a theist.
To some extent true. That is why there are rules to humanity for the sake of the innocent and pure. For instance it is birth that cuddles me and nourishes me. And it is this love and compassion that responds to the hierarchy established before my birth. It is for my Mother to tell me this is my father and to reinforce that truth. If she is lying and so is the father I have been deceived by the corrupt inhumane parentage.  Rules have a purpose and without it the liars corrupt everyone.  Theist know God others who do not know should say they do not know. There is a method to knowing anything.

I don't really understand the relevance of most of your post so I'll respond to the bit that is bolded.

There is a method to knowing things. It is unbiased critical thinking. Experience on its own does not lead to knowledge.
Every theist teaches a method to his followers.
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Why did God make me an atheist?
« Reply #43 on: February 13, 2014, 07:13:14 PM »
So, do you have an answer to my post last night, Jesuis?

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why did God make me an atheist?
« Reply #44 on: February 13, 2014, 08:50:30 PM »

Every theist teaches a method to his followers.

Including the followers of Ugabuga a volcano god that demands sacrifice.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Jesuis

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Re: Why did God make me an atheist?
« Reply #45 on: February 14, 2014, 03:01:46 PM »
A theist does not create a religion nor does he make one.
Wrong.  All theists create their own religious beliefs, and no two are the same.  That's because of the way the human mind works.
The theists are in control of their mind and they do not create their own religious beliefs. It is their followers minds that are filled with rites and rituals that enable them to focus on what the teacher has taught. These cultural traditions are mind creations that have to do with community, culture, language etc.

Quote from: Jesuis
His goal historically is to remind man of the path to knowing and becoming a more highly evolved humane human being
Sounds like you're describing Buddhistm here, since that's how a Bodhisattva works.  But the vast majority of theists (especially Christians and Muslims) are not in it to become a "more highly evolved humane human being".  They're in it for the free immortality plus benefits after they die.
What you call Christians and Muslims are not the same as theists. The theists who know God have a single aim for humanity which has always been to raise the mindset of his faithful followers. The same thread of enlightenment coming from the Holy Spirit The Word made flesh that descends upon the chosen one who has perfected and purified his mind that the two become one and the same - The prophets, the messiahs, the gurus, the Boddhisatvas are all in tune with this same power above and the aim is the same - to advance the mind set of the flock or faithful. Only the faithful is being advanced but the society at large benefits from their presence. What is at the heart of their teachings is "Blessed are the pure at heart for they shall see God". "If you love me follow my commandments" Love all equally in a manner of speaking. Whatever the theist is saying to his faithful he saying it with the intent of raising their awareness - is also using a method to try to get them unstuck from some mental distractions - the final goal at hand is God.

Quote from: Jesuis
through awareness of the effects of his own thoughts words and deeds on others as they all have consequences either raising or lowering the child humanity.
What you're describing here is morality, which is not dependent on theism.  Morality is simply a codified system of behaviors that allow us to get along with other people.
According to the theists "Love is at the heart of life - it is the pure conscious state of the spirit or soul". This state of knowing is beyond thinking. When thinking has stopped this state remains aware and filled with divine love. This is the state the theists have been trying to get their followers to become aware off. Morality is what helps them achieve this goal and immorality is what hinders that process.

Quote from: Jesuis
Man makes religion on the teachings of a theist and on the belief they have in him. A theist is one who knows God whereby the rest of us are atheists with beliefs.
So how do you tell which are the actual theists and which are the "atheists with beliefs"?  You see, EVERY theist holds this opinion about everyone who doesn't hold to their own beliefs (and usually to a specific creed as well), and the vast majority of them hold that opinion honestly.  Ironically, the ones who are least blinkered are the ones who actually declare themselves atheists.

We cannot tell or know them for who they are - we simply follow our minds dictates with its mindset of beliefs.
We can analyse what they say or do.
We can believe what we want.
We do what our mind desires and on occasion we try to better ourselves -- some times we are failing at every step - we make one step forward and two steps backward. It is the theists who choose their disciples to follow them.
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why did God make me an atheist?
« Reply #46 on: February 14, 2014, 04:44:33 PM »
You use the word theist as if you mean prophet or mystic or guru. I don't think that means what you think you mean.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Jesuis

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Re: Why did God make me an atheist?
« Reply #47 on: February 14, 2014, 04:57:19 PM »
God did not make you an atheist - you came to that conclusion all on your own through your thinking.  Thinking has made you into an atheist.

I didn't think about being an atheist, I just stuck to the position I was born with.
Thinking is not associated with birth. Experience is.

Thanks for highlighting my point.
Such experiences cannot be put into words it is divine and pure but that is quickly robbed from us as we begin to become more and more sense aware as we connect more and more with the senses that pull our attention to that level of experience.

Can I have some meat with that word salad?
A dumb man was asked to explain what he experienced when he ate the chocolate.
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline Jesuis

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Re: Why did God make me an atheist?
« Reply #48 on: February 14, 2014, 05:08:41 PM »
You use the word theist as if you mean prophet or mystic or guru. I don't think that means what you think you mean.
Words are very confusing things aren't they.
We humans used to called "atheists" non believers back in the old days. But the word "non believer" back then meant not in the God you call God. Not that they did not believe in God altogether. Today the meaning has changed with time to "there is no God". It was not always that way.
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline Jesuis

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Re: Why did God make me an atheist?
« Reply #49 on: February 14, 2014, 05:11:09 PM »

Every theist teaches a method to his followers.

Including the followers of Ugabuga a volcano god that demands sacrifice.
The thinking process of man creates many things. Theists are trying to get us to rise above the imaginary illusive creations of the mind.
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why did God make me an atheist?
« Reply #50 on: February 14, 2014, 05:19:26 PM »

Words are very confusing things aren't they.


When you make up meanings for "frequency" that do not match anyone else's yes they are. When people play equivocation games, yes they are. When people use sloppy language to hide their assumption's in, like some Catholics do, yes. When a person strives for clarity, such as most atheists do, not so much.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why did God make me an atheist?
« Reply #51 on: February 14, 2014, 05:21:32 PM »

Every theist teaches a method to his followers.

Including the followers of Ugabuga a volcano god that demands sacrifice.
The thinking process of man creates many things. Theists are trying to get us to rise above the imaginary illusive creations of the mind.

Then define God. Show how the evidence of said God is separable from a fictional one.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Why did God make me an atheist?
« Reply #52 on: February 14, 2014, 06:17:11 PM »
The thinking process of man creates many things. Theists are trying to get us to rise above the imaginary illusive creations of the mind.
And the first thing they must do - but invariably never do - is show that their own beliefs are not "imaginary illusive creations of the mind".

Whatever else you say about science, it does a far better job of ruling out bias and imaginary stuff than any religious belief has ever come close to managing.

The theists are in control of their mind and they do not create their own religious beliefs.
Given the subjective nature of a person's mind, how do you know this?  I don't think you do; indeed, I don't think you can.

Quote from: Jesuis
It is their followers minds that are filled with rites and rituals that enable them to focus on what the teacher has taught. These cultural traditions are mind creations that have to do with community, culture, language etc.
And what makes you think that the teacher doesn't have rites and rituals in their own mind that enable them to focus on what they learned?  Or did that even occur to you to wonder about?

Quote from: Jesuis
What you call Christians and Muslims are not the same as theists.
When you arbitrarily redefine a word like that, you just sow confusion.  The word theist means, "one who believes in the existence of a god or gods".  Therefore, Christians and Muslims are theists by definition.  Instead of trying to redefine an existing word, coin your own word to refer to what you specifically mean, like I did when I coined the word 'apatheist'[1].

Quote from: Jesuis
The theists who know God have a single aim for humanity which has always been to raise the mindset of his faithful followers.
All you have to go on is ancient stories which have dramatically changed over time.  For example, if there was an actual, historical Jesus, he was very little like how the gospels painted him as - given that they were all written decades after his supposed death and almost certainly not by the ones they were named for.  Furthermore, even what you put here gives the lie to your intentions.  It isn't about trying to uplift humanity as a whole, it's about rewarding the faithful, like every religion ever.

Quote from: Jesuis
The same thread of enlightenment coming from the Holy Spirit The Word made flesh that descends upon the chosen one who has perfected and purified his mind that the two become one and the same - The prophets, the messiahs, the gurus, the Boddhisatvas are all in tune with this same power above and the aim is the same - to advance the mind set of the flock or faithful.
I don't think that people who were really in tune with some higher power would be focused on belief the way you seem to think.  Look at the people Jesus regularly preached to - people who didn't have belief in YHWH in the first place.  Even if you were right, and prophets, messiahs, gurus, and so on were actually in tune with a higher power, they wouldn't be aiming to advance the mindset of the faithful.  They'd be aiming at people who weren't faithful to begin with, and at breaking the stratified chains of belief that people inevitably surround themselves with.

Quote from: Jesuis
Only the faithful is being advanced but the society at large benefits from their presence. What is at the heart of their teachings is "Blessed are the pure at heart for they shall see God". "If you love me follow my commandments" Love all equally in a manner of speaking. Whatever the theist is saying to his faithful he saying it with the intent of raising their awareness - is also using a method to try to get them unstuck from some mental distractions - the final goal at hand is God.
While I commend the idea of getting people free of their mental blocks, why should the final goal be a god?  Why not focus on the journey instead of a goal?  Seems to me that it's far more important to focus on the road you travel than on whatever your ultimate goal might be.

Quote from: Jesuis
According to the theists "Love is at the heart of life - it is the pure conscious state of the spirit or soul". This state of knowing is beyond thinking. When thinking has stopped this state remains aware and filled with divine love. This is the state the theists have been trying to get their followers to become aware off. Morality is what helps them achieve this goal and immorality is what hinders that process.
It sounds like you actually mean "knowing without knowing".  This is indeed a good state to be in - to where your knowledge is so internalized that you don't even have to think about it, the way we internalize language.  However, what makes you think that it's even slightly necessary to conflate it with religious belief?  Not only that, but what you're suggesting is actually fairly inane.  It frankly isn't what I'd consider to be wise or profound.  The purpose of internalizing knowledge to where you no longer have to think about it is so that your mind can be focus on other things instead; not to move someone to a point at which they never have to actually think.

Quote from: Jesuis
We cannot tell or know them for who they are - we simply follow our minds dictates with its mindset of beliefs.
If you don't know, then just say that.  Don't say things with the intent of trying to be wise or profound, because it rings false.

Quote from: Jesuis
We can analyse what they say or do.
We can believe what we want.
Which doesn't help matters any.

Quote from: Jesuis
We do what our mind desires and on occasion we try to better ourselves -- some times we are failing at every step - we make one step forward and two steps backward. It is the theists who choose their disciples to follow them.
The second sentence has nothing to do with the first.
 1. one who doesn't care about the existence of gods
« Last Edit: February 14, 2014, 06:19:16 PM by jaimehlers »

Offline Jesuis

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Re: Why did God make me an atheist?
« Reply #53 on: February 14, 2014, 06:32:08 PM »

Words are very confusing things aren't they.


When you make up meanings for "frequency" that do not match anyone else's yes they are. When people play equivocation games, yes they are. When people use sloppy language to hide their assumption's in, like some Catholics do, yes. When a person strives for clarity, such as most atheists do, not so much.
Since we are all atheists I agree. Clarity is what we need to move forward but any word that keeps changing cannot be used to reason truth.
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline Jesuis

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Re: Why did God make me an atheist?
« Reply #54 on: February 14, 2014, 07:35:21 PM »

Every theist teaches a method to his followers.

Including the followers of Ugabuga a volcano god that demands sacrifice.
The thinking process of man creates many things. Theists are trying to get us to rise above the imaginary illusive creations of the mind.

Then define God. Show how the evidence of said God is separable from a fictional one.
Its not about the definition of something that cannot be defined. Its about us.
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Why did God make me an atheist?
« Reply #55 on: February 14, 2014, 07:55:26 PM »
Since we are all atheists I agree. Clarity is what we need to move forward but any word that keeps changing cannot be used to reason truth.

It would be reasonable to not use any word you don't understand the definition of. I don't think there is any reason to use the word "atheist" at all. On this forum, half the participants are knowingly agnostic about what or whether there could be a god or maker. When a Christian uses the word atheist on this forum, it's usually followed by something idiotic, because he's speaking to a non-existent, or stereotyped audience.



Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Why did God make me an atheist?
« Reply #56 on: February 14, 2014, 07:57:45 PM »
Its not about the definition of something that cannot be defined. Its about us.

Look - I know that being all wootastically vague and ethereal makes you feel all mystically wise and sh*t, but honestly, to the rest of the known and unknown universe, it makes you sound like an evasive twit who is uninterested in any meaningful communication.  If that's the case, do the world a favor and shut the f*ck up.  Otherwise, make some f*cking effort at conveying something meaningful.

Jesus-b-f*cking-h-tap-dancing-christ-on-a-segway.  Woo for the sake of woo is irritating.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Offline Jesuis

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Re: Why did God make me an atheist?
« Reply #57 on: February 14, 2014, 08:16:17 PM »
Since we are all atheists I agree. Clarity is what we need to move forward but any word that keeps changing cannot be used to reason truth.

It would be reasonable to not use any word you don't understand the definition of. I don't think there is any reason to use the word "atheist" at all. On this forum, half the participants are knowingly agnostic about what or whether there could be a god or maker. When a Christian uses the word atheist on this forum, it's usually followed by something idiotic, because he's speaking to a non-existent, or stereotyped audience.
I understand that free will allows everyone to think and say anything they want.
The truth is always a little bit harder to say.
A Christian dropout should not call himself an atheist or agnostic because it confuses everyone and makes it impossible to locate the problem or reasoning for their lack of belief that should have led to a strengthening of their faith.
According to Theists: Theists know God, Atheists don't.