Great Article that Some Parents May Relate To

[bosey926]

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/14/daughter-of-atheist-wants-to-be-catholic

     Was just browsing through the main stories of today on The Guardian when I noticed this article's title.  Fabulous, quick read that perhaps some parents on here could have a personal correlation with.  I found it quite humorous as well.

[Hatter23]

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/14/daughter-of-atheist-wants-to-be-catholic

     Was just browsing through the main stories of today on The Guardian when I noticed this article's title.  Fabulous, quick read that perhaps some parents on here could have a personal correlation with.  I found it quite humorous as well.

"If you want to believe a lot of nonsense, that's your peragative. However, don't expect me to stop thinking it is a lot of nonsense, or stop loving you;" would be my take.

[screwtape]

how the flip did their daughter come to believe in god? 

We enrolled our little girl at a local Catholic school,

wft?  I have to assume they have been totally negligent parents.  Morons. 

[Mrjason]

wft?  I have to assume they have been totally negligent parents.  Morons.

not necessarily, if its a good school its a good school regardless of the religious overtone. both of my sisters went to catholic school because it was the best in the area that still had places open. Looks like they still are one of the best too if you can't afford to pay for education[1]

from the article;

We enrolled our little girl at a local Catholic school, selected purely on the recommendation of a colleague for the quality of its education. And frankly, the school had a place when we needed it.

If the choice is no school or catholic school were the parents really negligent to enrol their kid?

1.	http://www.education.gov.uk/cgi-bin/schools/performance/group.pl?qtype=LA&superview=p16&view=aat&set=1&tab=151&no=856&sort=ks5_12.tallpps_aleva&ord=desc]

[screwtape]

If you are an atheist, avoid sending your kid to a religious school.
If that is not possible, and you don't want your kid forfeiting his or her brain, you must spend time counteracting their magical thinking.  The dope came right out and said they pretty much did as little as possible:

in spite of our gentle antipathy to god and creation

Gentle antipathy isn't enough.  So it should not have been a shock that she became indoctrinated.  And now the fool is even talking about going to mass.  Makes me sick.  I have a very hard time with people who think of religion as "mostly harmless". 

[LoriPinkAngel]

I raised my kid as a Christian because I was a Christian.  Now I'm not.  He goes to a Christian school because the public school sucks.  Am I supposed to demand he change his beliefs because I did?  Fortunately this state (NY)  requires they teach proper science.  He is smart.  He will figure it out.

[Hatter23]

If you are an atheist, avoid sending your kid to a religious school.

I'd say religious school is better than public in Baltimore City, as the public schools are listed as one of the bottom five districts in the nation. However Harford County, only about a thirty mile trip, is listed in the top five.

[screwtape]

I raised my kid as a Christian because I was a Christian.  Now I'm not.  He goes to a Christian school because the public school sucks.  Am I supposed to demand he change his beliefs because I did?

I'd say that's apples and oranges with the dope in the article.  But to answer your question, no.  I don't think anyone can demand anyone else change their beliefs.  Well, they can, I guess, but I don't see that as doing any good.  They best you can do for your kids - or anyone - is teach them how to think and give them tools for rational thinking.  If they still come to the wrong conclusions, you can always cut them out of your will.

My problem with Mr Harrington is he seems to have let the RCC have it's way with his daughter, so to speak, while he stood by and did nothing.  He should have been teaching her to be critical an think about the malarkey they were telling her.  It does not seem from his article that he did.  Which makes me question just how "vehement" an atheist his wife is. 

Fortunately this state (NY)  requires they teach proper science.  He is smart.  He will figure it out.

we can hope.


And I just read the comments.  Holy crap, the stupid. 

[screwtape]

I'd say religious school is better than public in Baltimore City,

If you are an atheist, avoid sending your kid to a religious school.
If that is not possible,...

bold mine

[LoriPinkAngel]

My problem with Mr Harrington is he seems to have let the RCC have it's way with his daughter, so to speak, while he stood by and did nothing.  He should have been teaching her to be critical an think about the malarkey they were telling her.  It does not seem from his article that he did.  Which makes me question just how "vehement" an atheist his wife is. 

I have to admit that my son's school is way more fundy than I ever was & I always made sure I countered the "fundyism" as much as I could.  The girl in the article sounds pretty young...  I would think they would have prepared her somehow to understand that they did not embrace the church's teachings.

[Betelnut]

If you are an atheist, avoid sending your kid to a religious school.

I'd say religious school is better than public in Baltimore City, as the public schools are listed as one of the bottom five districts in the nation. However Harford County, only about a thirty mile trip, is listed in the top five.

I live in Charles County MD which has fairly good schools but even I have considered sending my kid to the only decent private school nearby (Catholic).  There is only one secular private school even somewhat close to where I live but it is fairly far away and more expensive.  I'm thinking about it simply because I'm not sure if the public school is a good fit for my daughter.

That said, I don't think I can do it.  I looked at their website.  Daily mass, stations of the cross, etc.  <Shudder> 

[Fiji]

My two eurocents ...
I'm Atheist
The wife is generic Christian

We sent both our kids to a catholic primary school. Son never much cared for gods and such. But Daughter did buy into it. And she's always trying to come at me with biblical gotchas ... well until she figured out my reply was always the same "does this seem sensible to you". And usually, she'd figure out on her own that the bible is a pile of otter's nipples. So, along comes 6th grade[1] and up pops the question of confirmation. Ok, so we tell the daughter, do it or don't do it, you get a party[2] either way.
And she chooses to sign up, partly because her best friend will as well[3]. But, nonpurturbed, the daughter goes ahead with the cathechism anyway. And ... a lackluster gotcha or two later, she increasingly focusses on the secular aspect of things ... the arts and crafts, the games, the songs. At the end of cathechism, she's closer to Atheism then ever.
She hasn't abondoned the concept of god entirely, but she'll occasionally start to say something about god and suddenly stop. You can actually see her doing a mental doublecheck and then change to subject. And we're ok with her talking godstuff. It's not like we go "Ain't no god talk in this house!!!"

Inquisitive minds will, when left to their own devices figure it out ... usually.

Incidentally, this 6th december, The Son admitted that he no longer believes in Saint-Nicholas, and that he hasn't for over a year[4]. Recently, he told me that there's a lot of simularity between god and Saint-Nicholas[5]. Also, the subject of his confirmation has come up, under the same conditions, do or do not but there will be a party and a new outfit[6] either way. His reaction ... 'meh, don't wanna'.

1.	11 to 12 years old
2.	and a dress
3.	except the best friend didn't and when queried, said, "I'm atheist, of course I don't believe that stuff."
4.	cheeky!
5.	You can't actually see either and the good stuff they bring, that's really the parents in disguise.
6.	No! Not a dress! Jeeeeesus! ... oh oh, no, I mean Muhaaaaammed! ... No, it's not that either ... Liiiiiiiiiister! (lead us to Fuchal!) yeah, that's the ticket

[screwtape]

okay.  Looks like I'm the odd man out here.  I am forced to admit I must be a lot more sensitive to the idea than other people.  Maybe my kid being a theist would not be the worst thing in the world, even though it feels like it.

I still feel like Herrington is a moron, but I have to admit (beacuse, reality) he might not be.

[Mrjason]

okay.  Looks like I'm the odd man out here.  I am forced to admit I must be a lot more sensitive to the idea than other people.  Maybe my kid being a theist would not be the worst thing in the world, even though it feels like it.

I still feel like Herrington is a moron, but I have to admit (beacuse, reality) he might not be.

it might be something to do with your geographical location?
Faith schools in Europe aren't really fundie, at least the government funded ones (which is most of them). The catholic school where my sisters went weren't just for catholics there were kids from just about every religion going attending that school. Yeah there were a couple of nuns dotted around but kids love seeing penguins.

Also (in UK schools at least) Science is Science and RE is RE and never the twain shall meet in class[1].

Would your view be different if you knew that the faith school was just a regular school but with optional praying? 

1.	Thanks, in part, to the BHA https://humanism.org.uk/2012/01/10/news-961/

[screwtape]

it might be something to do with your geographical location?

I don't think it is.  I think it is more about me and my view of religion.  I'm pretty hard line about it.

I think I would have a really hard time if my kid got religion.  Just like when you see people flipping out because their kid married outside their race or religion.  Only I do not think it is as arbitrary as tradition or social identity.  To me it is about teaching them to think rationally and giving them tools to overcome the biases inherent in our brains.  I would interpret a religious kid as a complete failure by the parent.  And not just for me, but for any atheist.

I find ithe indoctrination of children into any kind of god believing system tantamount to child abuse.  Let them learn it once they are old enough to be able to understand the facts and have the tools to make adult decisions.  At age 8 they just don't have the ability to know. 

I truly believe the future of our species depends on rational thinking and weeding out magical thinking. 

Would your view be different if you knew that the faith school was just a regular school but with optional praying?

I don't think so.  The whole point of religious schools is insidious - immersing the kids in an environment of faith, belief and magical thinking so that they turn out with these traits.  It uses culture and peer pressure to get kids to go along.  From there, actions guide beliefs.

Yeah, yeah, there are plenty of anecdotes of kids who resisted.  But they are exceptions.  They would not continue to have religious schools if they actually produced more atheists than xians.  So whether praying is optional or not, the kids are marinating in religion. Which, in my opinion, is a terrible thing.

[Mrjason]

I don't think so.  The whole point of religious schools is insidious - immersing the kids in an environment of faith, belief and magical thinking so that they turn out with these traits.  It uses culture and peer pressure to get kids to go along.  From there, actions guide beliefs.

Hmm I'm not sure I agree. A schools primary function is to educate not to proselytize. If a school acts as a recruiting ground then this is clearly wrong and contrary to its purpose.
If a faith school is the leader in its area for national curriculum science, maths etc then I would view it as ironically self defeating as it would seem to be the best for teaching critical thinking.

Yeah, yeah, there are plenty of anecdotes of kids who resisted.  But they are exceptions.  They would not continue to have religious schools if they actually produced more atheists than xians.  So whether praying is optional or not, the kids are marinating in religion. Which, in my opinion, is a terrible thing.

Yes I agree with this to some extent. However it depends on the student population. If the kids of the given faith of the school, in this case catholic, are in the minority then are all of the kids be they musilm, hindu, CoE marinating in the catholic faith?

I found this when googling faith schools; it's not all bad in England.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-24399813

I read the title as "More than half of England's schools are placing the correct weight on religious education"

It adds that six in 10 schools are not "realising the subject's full potential"

Oh yes they do...

[screwtape]

Hmm I'm not sure I agree. A schools primary function is to educate not to proselytize. If a school acts as a recruiting ground then this is clearly wrong and contrary to its purpose.

Not if the school is run by the Roman Catholic Church or Beth Israel temple.  They have ulterior motives.  It is to educate kids and make sure they end up with the right religion before they have any chance to wise up.  Bluntly, it is brainwashing.

Yes I agree with this to some extent. However it depends on the student population. If the kids of the given faith of the school, in this case catholic, are in the minority...

I didn't go to catholic school, but my some of my friends did.  It may be different in other places, but at the local catholic school, you had to be catholic to attend.  Not just that, but you also had to be in good standing, have your buns at mass regularly, and help out at bingo a minimum number of times a year.

[Dante]

In Texas, apparently one doesn't even need to go to an overtly religious school to get brainwashed.

Texas Charter Schools

[jdawg70]

I didn't go to catholic school, but my some of my friends did.  It may be different in other places, but at the local catholic school, you had to be catholic to attend.  Not just that, but you also had to be in good standing, have your buns at mass regularly, and help out at bingo a minimum number of times a year.

I went to a Catholic high school.  They had this 'opt-out' thing, where theology classes and mass attendance was required unless your parents wanted you to opt out.  The vast majority of my peers were Catholic, but there were a very small handful of Episcopalians and non-religious people who went that did not have to take theology classes and were not required to attend the various masses/services.

I have no idea how representative that is of how Catholic schools in the US operate or are expected to operate.

[screwtape]

I have no idea how representative that is of how Catholic schools in the US operate or are expected to operate.

I think their take on it here is "why have a catholic school if the students can opt out of the catholic parts?" 

[LoriPinkAngel]

I have no idea how representative that is of how Catholic schools in the US operate or are expected to operate.

I think their take on it here is "why have a catholic school if the students can opt out of the catholic parts?"

$$$$$$$$$

[Hatter23]

I have no idea how representative that is of how Catholic schools in the US operate or are expected to operate.

I think their take on it here is "why have a catholic school if the students can opt out of the catholic parts?"

Because most of the PARENTS are Catholic and want their children to remain so.

[screwtape]

$$$$$$$$$

That may be the case in some parishes, but in mine, the school was always on the verge of closing for lack of funds.  Every penny the old ladies spent on bingo (yes, I used to work the bingo hall, along with my grand parents), was dumped into the school. 

And then it closed, for lack of funds.

[Chronos]

I'd say religious school is better than public in Baltimore City, as the public schools are listed as one of the bottom five districts in the nation. However Harford County, only about a thirty mile trip, is listed in the top five.

Which speaks more as a function of race and socioeconomic status. The more positive the attitude for education is at home, the more positive the student will perform. Maryland public schools have repeatedly ranked first in the nation, but Baltimore City public schools are a tremendous drag on state rankings. The mental, social and financial wherewithal of Baltimore City is quite low. Montgomery, Frederick and Howard County school systems contrast positively to the extreme and offer excellent schools -- those counties also have among the highest number of college educated parents, and Howard County has the highest average household incomes in the country. I am very happy with the education my daughter receives, and the student bodies of the schools she has attended are quite diverse with one exception: income. We are also white, college-educated, have a great attitude towards education and live in what is considered the suburbs. I couldn't imagine sending my daughter to a Baltimore City public school, but I also cannot see myself living in Baltimore City for parallel reasons.

I deal with a lot of parents who live in Baltimore City and send their kids to school there because they can't afford private schools nor can they afford to move out of the city. Frequently dealing with people who are highly educated and highly compensated and just 5 miles away there are plenty of people who didn't go to college and are perhaps moderately compensated, the outcomes between the two groups is quite opposite and quite obvious.

[Chronos]

If you are an atheist, avoid sending your kid to a religious school.

The mother (ex-wife) wanted the kid to go to a private school, and probably 95% of all private schools are sectarian. I never, ever intended for my child to attend a private school, and when I agreed to visit these private schools and pretend to consider them, we found schools that were often underperforming in various ways. A lack of assets, instructional aids and extreme partisan social engineering. On the way to the mother reluctantly agreeing that these schools were not appropriate was a defining episode at an Adventist school. As we were standing outside the school in the parking lot that converts to a basketball court, we asked what social activities the school offers and the principal said "Well, the boys play basketball and the girls are the cheerleaders." I turned to the mother just to feel the heat of her glare. I was not disappointed. That school was axed at that very moment. Also, the daughter intentionally botched her interview at the all-girls Catholic boarding school by insisting to the nuns during her interview that she didn't know how to read at all (in fact she was already reading at the 4th grade level at age 5). Apparently she didn't want to go to a school where she had to wear uniforms.

Later when her friends encouraged her to attend Methodist confirmation classes I encouraged her to attend. During those classes she learned my views on religion because the church required the parents to complete questionnaires. She got in trouble with some of her ... pointed ... answers during the Q&A times.

[Mrjason]

Not if the school is run by the Roman Catholic Church or Beth Israel temple.  They have ulterior motives.  It is to educate kids and make sure they end up with the right religion before they have any chance to wise up.  Bluntly, it is brainwashing.

I see why we don't agree on this now, see below:

Yes I agree with this to some extent. However it depends on the student population. If the kids of the given faith of the school, in this case catholic, are in the minority...

I didn't go to catholic school, but my some of my friends did.  It may be different in other places, but at the local catholic school, you had to be catholic to attend.  Not just that, but you also had to be in good standing, have your buns at mass regularly, and help out at bingo a minimum number of times a year.

In my county you just have to be in the catchment area to attend a school. The catholic schools can give preference to catholics but that only makes a difference if the school is undersubscribed. They can't turn kids from other faiths away if they've got places for them.
The majority of kids in my city aren't raised by catholics, the 2011 census revealed that only 32.4% of adults in my city counted themselves as Christian, let alone catholic, I'll bet the majority of the christians were CoE.
If that trend follows in the schools then (IMO) there is no way that catholicism  will be the pervading culture...

however my view;

might be something to do with my geographical location?

[screwtape]

however my view;

might be something to do with my geographical location?

I didn't get the connection before, but that could be it.