Author Topic: Sunday School Lessons  (Read 3400 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline junebug72

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2032
  • Darwins +72/-83
  • Gender: Female
  • "Question Everything"
Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #116 on: February 28, 2014, 01:39:59 PM »
I don't see how any of this assures your gay student that God does love him.  For anybody that believes in God this is very important to their self esteem.  To me the only way to go is non-religion or maybe focus on Jesus's commandment to Love one another as I have loved you which was and is unconditional.  Jesus stood up to religion and if your going to call yourself Christ "like" you should do the same.  Religions are man made mistakes; even Christianity. 

As far as telling both sides you did a great job!

JB
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine.html#XXwlhVIMq06zWg2d.99

Offline OldChurchGuy

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1489
  • Darwins +98/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • One of those theists who enjoys exchanging ideas
Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #117 on: February 28, 2014, 01:53:03 PM »
I don't see how any of this assures your gay student that God does love him.  For anybody that believes in God this is very important to their self esteem.  To me the only way to go is non-religion or maybe focus on Jesus's commandment to Love one another as I have loved you which was and is unconditional.  Jesus stood up to religion and if your going to call yourself Christ "like" you should do the same.  Religions are man made mistakes; even Christianity. 

As far as telling both sides you did a great job!

JB

I appreciate your kind words very much.

The lessons were not intended so much for assurance as to get them to thinking about their faith especially with a current topic they were interested in. 

Interestingly, the Bible verse that upset the females the most was the Genesis passage about Sodom and Gomorrah where Lot offers his two virgin daughters.  They were familiar with the story but that part had been left out of their lessons growing up. 

We finished this topic this past Sunday and will next look at what the Bible says about birth control followed by what the Bible says about abortion.  They like the two-view approach so I will continue with that.  Seems to be a fearless group of kids and their parents are OK with exploring these topics and whatever else the kids want to discuss related to the Bible. 

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle - Philo of Alexandria

Whether one believes in a religion or not, and whether one believes in rebirth or not, there isn't anyone who doesn't appreciate kindness and compassion - Dalai Lama

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 12130
  • Darwins +646/-27
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #118 on: February 28, 2014, 04:00:31 PM »
Interestingly, the Bible verse that upset the females the most was the Genesis passage about Sodom and Gomorrah where Lot offers his two virgin daughters.  They were familiar with the story but that part had been left out of their lessons growing up. 

I'll bet they feel much better when they read in the ensuing chapters how those same young women get Lot drunk and make themselves pregnant by him.

Links:
Rules
Guides & Tutorials

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline penfold

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 678
  • Darwins +63/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • ...buzz buzz buzz...
Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #119 on: February 28, 2014, 04:05:42 PM »
Interestingly, the Bible verse that upset the females the most was the Genesis passage about Sodom and Gomorrah where Lot offers his two virgin daughters.  They were familiar with the story but that part had been left out of their lessons growing up. 

I'll bet they feel much better when they read in the ensuing chapters how those same young women get Lot drunk and make themselves pregnant by him.

Or really any of the OT! Genuinely in all my reading, I have never come across a view of women bleaker than that in the OT. I had a wonderful tutor at university who used to be a Christian until she wrote her dphil thesis. She tried to 'remove' from the OT everything which depicted women in a negative light thus create a 'genuine theology for women'. In her own words: "I was left with a not very interesting pamphlet."
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away." - P.K.D.

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 12130
  • Darwins +646/-27
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #120 on: February 28, 2014, 04:14:10 PM »
^ Tamar was pretty badass.  As was Judith.  But of course, even though they were heroines, they still played the part of whores. 

I often argue Eve was the real protagonist in Eden.  yhwh was the villain and Adam was his stooge.


edit heroins --> heroines
« Last Edit: March 06, 2014, 03:47:07 PM by screwtape »
Links:
Rules
Guides & Tutorials

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline OldChurchGuy

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1489
  • Darwins +98/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • One of those theists who enjoys exchanging ideas
Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #121 on: February 28, 2014, 06:13:28 PM »
Interestingly, the Bible verse that upset the females the most was the Genesis passage about Sodom and Gomorrah where Lot offers his two virgin daughters.  They were familiar with the story but that part had been left out of their lessons growing up. 

I'll bet they feel much better when they read in the ensuing chapters how those same young women get Lot drunk and make themselves pregnant by him.

I didn't even try to go down that path because I wanted to stay focused on the topic at hand.  No doubt they would have been equally mortified over such behavior. 

Maybe we should study Genesis next after these two lessons.  Who knows?

As always,

OldChurchGuy
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle - Philo of Alexandria

Whether one believes in a religion or not, and whether one believes in rebirth or not, there isn't anyone who doesn't appreciate kindness and compassion - Dalai Lama

Offline Eddie Schultz

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 199
  • Darwins +5/-0
Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #122 on: February 28, 2014, 11:35:36 PM »
Is it just me, or do others wonder why OCG holds on to his belief? I have read many of his replies to questions and such, and it baffles me that a man of his seemingly intelligence decides to stick with his "faith" in a god.

OCG, do you really think that there is enough evidence for what you believe, to keep believing? If so, please do tell. If not, please do tell.

Is being in the gray just good enough for you?

Thanks,
Eddie

Offline junebug72

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2032
  • Darwins +72/-83
  • Gender: Female
  • "Question Everything"
Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #123 on: March 01, 2014, 06:09:12 AM »
I don't see how any of this assures your gay student that God does love him.  For anybody that believes in God this is very important to their self esteem.  To me the only way to go is non-religion or maybe focus on Jesus's commandment to Love one another as I have loved you which was and is unconditional.  Jesus stood up to religion and if your going to call yourself Christ "like" you should do the same.  Religions are man made mistakes; even Christianity. 

As far as telling both sides you did a great job!

JB

I appreciate your kind words very much.

The lessons were not intended so much for assurance as to get them to thinking about their faith especially with a current topic they were interested in. 

Interestingly, the Bible verse that upset the females the most was the Genesis passage about Sodom and Gomorrah where Lot offers his two virgin daughters.  They were familiar with the story but that part had been left out of their lessons growing up. 

We finished this topic this past Sunday and will next look at what the Bible says about birth control followed by what the Bible says about abortion.  They like the two-view approach so I will continue with that.  Seems to be a fearless group of kids and their parents are OK with exploring these topics and whatever else the kids want to discuss related to the Bible. 

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

OCG,

Sorry it took so long to reply. 

Yes I imagine they were disturbed.  Sadly women are still treated this way in the Middle East. 

Who cares what that damn bible says.  I will never believe God had anything to do with the words in that book.  Never, ever, ever!!! 

You say you see the bible as man's experience with God but I see it as man's experience with evil and cruelty.  I see Christianity as a disgrace to it's namesake.  Nobody should profit monetarily from teaching about God.  The bible was founded on greed and ego. 
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine.html#XXwlhVIMq06zWg2d.99

Offline OldChurchGuy

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1489
  • Darwins +98/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • One of those theists who enjoys exchanging ideas
Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #124 on: March 01, 2014, 07:04:11 AM »
Is it just me, or do others wonder why OCG holds on to his belief? I have read many of his replies to questions and such, and it baffles me that a man of his seemingly intelligence decides to stick with his "faith" in a god.

OCG, do you really think that there is enough evidence for what you believe, to keep believing? If so, please do tell. If not, please do tell.

Is being in the gray just good enough for you?

Thanks,
Eddie

First, thank you for the kind words.

Regarding my faith, for me there is enough evidence.  This is based on various personal experiences in my life which I interpret to be evidence of God.  I accept that I am choosing to interpret the experiences this way and I will not rule out the alternate explanation that my reactions / interpretations are psychological.   I don't believe so, but I cannot prove I am correct. 

There was a time when I was a black / white Christian theist (believe it or not) then I began teaching a high school Sunday School class.  They decided for their first lessons to study Revelation and that they wanted alternate interpretations.  I figured the alternate interpretations would be minor since I had not read Revelation.  The church had a very good library with a variety of commentaries and Bible dictionaries and I happily checked them out.  I discovered there were huge differences in the ways various authors interpreted Revelation and I did experience a crossroads of faith. 

I felt the choices were to abandon all faith since there were such contradictory interpretations or to engage on a lifelong journey of discovery in sorting through all the interpretations.  I chose the latter knowing I would go from a black / white theology to much more grey.  For me, it has been very rewarding and I have no regrets. 

If that makes me delusional, so be it.  I don't worry about it since I do not feel any compulsion to convert others to my way of thinking / believing.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle - Philo of Alexandria

Whether one believes in a religion or not, and whether one believes in rebirth or not, there isn't anyone who doesn't appreciate kindness and compassion - Dalai Lama

Offline OldChurchGuy

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1489
  • Darwins +98/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • One of those theists who enjoys exchanging ideas
Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #125 on: March 01, 2014, 07:33:59 AM »
I don't see how any of this assures your gay student that God does love him.  For anybody that believes in God this is very important to their self esteem.  To me the only way to go is non-religion or maybe focus on Jesus's commandment to Love one another as I have loved you which was and is unconditional.  Jesus stood up to religion and if your going to call yourself Christ "like" you should do the same.  Religions are man made mistakes; even Christianity. 

As far as telling both sides you did a great job!

JB

I appreciate your kind words very much.

The lessons were not intended so much for assurance as to get them to thinking about their faith especially with a current topic they were interested in. 

Interestingly, the Bible verse that upset the females the most was the Genesis passage about Sodom and Gomorrah where Lot offers his two virgin daughters.  They were familiar with the story but that part had been left out of their lessons growing up. 

We finished this topic this past Sunday and will next look at what the Bible says about birth control followed by what the Bible says about abortion.  They like the two-view approach so I will continue with that.  Seems to be a fearless group of kids and their parents are OK with exploring these topics and whatever else the kids want to discuss related to the Bible. 

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

Your point is well made.  Yet, there are a few stories (granted, not many) of women who made changes.  There is Deborah in book of Judges; Huldah in II Kings and II Chronicles who was asked about a book found when Solomon's temple was being renovated.  And there is the story in Numbers about the daughters of Zelophehad who made a compelling argument about property and inheritance. 

These stories by no means offset the other stories of greed and cruelty.  Just wanted to let you know there are a few stories of women doing amazing things. 

Enough lecturing.

As always,

OldChurchGuy

OCG,

Sorry it took so long to reply. 

Yes I imagine they were disturbed.  Sadly women are still treated this way in the Middle East. 

Who cares what that damn bible says.  I will never believe God had anything to do with the words in that book.  Never, ever, ever!!! 

You say you see the bible as man's experience with God but I see it as man's experience with evil and cruelty.  I see Christianity as a disgrace to it's namesake.  Nobody should profit monetarily from teaching about God.  The bible was founded on greed and ego.
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle - Philo of Alexandria

Whether one believes in a religion or not, and whether one believes in rebirth or not, there isn't anyone who doesn't appreciate kindness and compassion - Dalai Lama

Offline junebug72

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2032
  • Darwins +72/-83
  • Gender: Female
  • "Question Everything"
Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #126 on: March 01, 2014, 08:18:31 AM »
Please do not derail this thread by continuing your feud with Nam.  Move on, please.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2014, 08:52:16 AM by Anfauglir »
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine.html#XXwlhVIMq06zWg2d.99

Offline junebug72

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2032
  • Darwins +72/-83
  • Gender: Female
  • "Question Everything"
Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #127 on: March 01, 2014, 09:18:10 AM »
Is it just me, or do others wonder why OCG holds on to his belief? I have read many of his replies to questions and such, and it baffles me that a man of his seemingly intelligence decides to stick with his "faith" in a god.

OCG, do you really think that there is enough evidence for what you believe, to keep believing? If so, please do tell. If not, please do tell.

Is being in the gray just good enough for you?

Thanks,
Eddie

First, thank you for the kind words.

Regarding my faith, for me there is enough evidence.  This is based on various personal experiences in my life which I interpret to be evidence of God.  I accept that I am choosing to interpret the experiences this way and I will not rule out the alternate explanation that my reactions / interpretations are psychological.   I don't believe so, but I cannot prove I am correct. 

There was a time when I was a black / white Christian theist (believe it or not) then I began teaching a high school Sunday School class.  They decided for their first lessons to study Revelation and that they wanted alternate interpretations.  I figured the alternate interpretations would be minor since I had not read Revelation.  The church had a very good library with a variety of commentaries and Bible dictionaries and I happily checked them out.  I discovered there were huge differences in the ways various authors interpreted Revelation and I did experience a crossroads of faith. 

I felt the choices were to abandon all faith since there were such contradictory interpretations or to engage on a lifelong journey of discovery in sorting through all the interpretations.  I chose the latter knowing I would go from a black / white theology to much more grey.  For me, it has been very rewarding and I have no regrets. 

If that makes me delusional, so be it.  I don't worry about it since I do not feel any compulsion to convert others to my way of thinking / believing.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

Why call yourself delusional?  Why would you say that?  Do we need to call a doctor for you?  -1 for God after that comment.

Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine.html#XXwlhVIMq06zWg2d.99

Offline junebug72

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2032
  • Darwins +72/-83
  • Gender: Female
  • "Question Everything"
Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #128 on: March 01, 2014, 09:22:57 AM »
We might not have tangible evidence here but proving belief rational is my objective, you derailed that attempt all to pieces here.  It's embarrassing to me as a fellow theist but understandable because you're religious not spiritual.  Religion has stunted your growth. IMO

Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine.html#XXwlhVIMq06zWg2d.99

Online SevenPatch

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 698
  • Darwins +108/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • A source will help me understand.
Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #129 on: March 01, 2014, 10:12:20 AM »

If that makes me delusional, so be it.  I don't worry about it since I do not feel any compulsion to convert others to my way of thinking / believing.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

Why call yourself delusional?  Why would you say that?  Do we need to call a doctor for you?  -1 for God after that comment.

I can't speak for OCG but from my perspective I would say humility is the answer to your first to questions.

I find humility to be an admirable trait as it leaves a person more open to learning something new even if it contradicts what they already think they know.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2014, 10:14:13 AM by SevenPatch »
"Shut him up! We have a lot invested in this ride - SHUT HIM UP! Look at my furrows of worry! Look at my big bank account, and my family! This just HAS to be real!" - Bill Hicks

Offline junebug72

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2032
  • Darwins +72/-83
  • Gender: Female
  • "Question Everything"
Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #130 on: March 01, 2014, 11:02:29 AM »
So are you delusional SevenPatch?  If it's such a good thing why do atheist make it sound so bad?  He might as well say I believe in unicorns and if that makes me delusional so be it. 

I know you will have a hard time understanding why this upset me, understandably.  You can only see things from my perspective when you open your own mind up to it.

This to me sounds like you have hope that OCG will change his way of thinking over to atheism, I don't think that's going to happen.

Calling yourself delusional has nothing to do with humility man.  That's just utterly ridiculous. 

Being aware that you might be wrong makes you humble, not insulting yourself and every other theist around.

If humility is such a good thing there would be more of it round here. 
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine.html#XXwlhVIMq06zWg2d.99

Offline Anfauglir

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6198
  • Darwins +408/-5
  • Gender: Male
Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #131 on: March 01, 2014, 12:52:40 PM »
Calling yourself delusional has nothing to do with humility man.  That's just utterly ridiculous. 

Being aware that you might be wrong makes you humble, not insulting yourself and every other theist around.

Have to say, I didn't read it as an insult, to himself or anyone else.  I took it as him saying that he felt entirely secure in his faith, and that that faith gives him comfort and happiness - and because of that, he wasn't especially worried if he's incorrect in his faith.  I don't personally agree with that point of view, but I understand it and don't necessarily feel it is an insulting one to have.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline junebug72

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2032
  • Darwins +72/-83
  • Gender: Female
  • "Question Everything"
Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #132 on: March 01, 2014, 03:02:58 PM »
Faith and delusion are closely related but they are not the same things. 

Using your own logic here you can not say I have delusions in God.  You can say I have faith in God.  So why replace the words.  Delusion is delusion and faith is faith. 

Basically what he's saying here to me is that he don't give a rat's butt what you all think of him he's going to believe in God regardless.

I do care if the atheist considers me delusional. 

Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine.html#XXwlhVIMq06zWg2d.99

Offline Jag

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1708
  • Darwins +181/-7
  • Gender: Female
  • Official WWGHA Harpy, Ex-rosary squad
Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #133 on: March 01, 2014, 05:10:40 PM »

If that makes me delusional, so be it.

Where exactly did he say he's delusional? Certainly not in the quoted passage above. The passage above is just a modified if/then statement: IF that makes me delusional, THEN so be it.

That's not even remotely the same thing as saying, "I believe, so I'm delusional." He even goes on to explain why he isn't spending any time worrying about what anyone else thinks of that specific belief of his - he has no investment in getting anyone else to agree with his position.
My tolerance for BS is limited, and I use up most of it IRL.

Offline OldChurchGuy

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1489
  • Darwins +98/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • One of those theists who enjoys exchanging ideas
Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #134 on: March 01, 2014, 06:29:15 PM »
WOW!  I had no idea a single sentence would create such spirited discussion.

The sentence "If that makes me delusional, so be it" is based on comments by various people on this website over the years who concluded I am delusional by continuing to be a theist. 

I cannot prove such conclusions are wrong.  I don't believe that is the case, but have no way of proving it.  So, the sentence was an attempt to be pro-active with a possible response based on a few past experiences. 

Thank you all for your concern and I am truly gratified a group of atheists would be so genuinely concerned over a theist.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle - Philo of Alexandria

Whether one believes in a religion or not, and whether one believes in rebirth or not, there isn't anyone who doesn't appreciate kindness and compassion - Dalai Lama

Offline junebug72

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2032
  • Darwins +72/-83
  • Gender: Female
  • "Question Everything"
Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #135 on: March 01, 2014, 06:44:08 PM »

If that makes me delusional, so be it.

Where exactly did he say he's delusional? Certainly not in the quoted passage above. The passage above is just a modified if/then statement: IF that makes me delusional, THEN so be it.

That's not even remotely the same thing as saying, "I believe, so I'm delusional." He even goes on to explain why he isn't spending any time worrying about what anyone else thinks of that specific belief of his - he has no investment in getting anyone else to agree with his position.

Y'all are the ones that say belief is delusional. 

Sorry.  I've been in a bad mood for a week.  I shouldn't take it out here on such fine outstanding humans.  I check myself here.  Nothing but sweetness from me.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2014, 07:31:15 PM by junebug72 »
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine.html#XXwlhVIMq06zWg2d.99

Offline junebug72

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2032
  • Darwins +72/-83
  • Gender: Female
  • "Question Everything"
Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #136 on: March 01, 2014, 07:27:11 PM »
WOW!  I had no idea a single sentence would create such spirited discussion.

The sentence "If that makes me delusional, so be it" is based on comments by various people on this website over the years who concluded I am delusional by continuing to be a theist. 

I cannot prove such conclusions are wrong.  I don't believe that is the case, but have no way of proving it.  So, the sentence was an attempt to be pro-active with a possible response based on a few past experiences. 

Thank you all for your concern and I am truly gratified a group of atheists would be so genuinely concerned over a theist.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

It's always spirited when I'm involved O. 8)

None of us can provide the evidence needed here to prove God exists but we can prove that we're not all delusional.  Not to change minds but to gain respect for our belief in a higher power so that atheist don't feel the need to take over the world.

I was doing alright until I shot my mouth off in defense of DrTesla.  I wish I could put those words back where they came from but I can't.  I was not impeccable with my word.  I failed myself and my values by saying what I did.  I can get scrappy it's the southern girl in me. 

Yes atheist defending a theist is very cool.  Maybe there is hope yet we can all get along.  I'm always willing.  My arms are open wide and so is my heart.

It is very comforting to forgive. :angel:

JB
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine.html#XXwlhVIMq06zWg2d.99

Online SevenPatch

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 698
  • Darwins +108/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • A source will help me understand.
Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #137 on: March 01, 2014, 09:31:25 PM »
So are you delusional SevenPatch?

Sure, I might be delusional, and it might even be likely that I am delusional.  I don't have any desire to be delusional but that alone won't prevent me from being delusional.  The word "delusion" is generally defined as a strongly held belief which goes against the evidence.  I don't know if I hold any beliefs strongly but I might, and I certainly don't have all the evidence so I need to keep searching for evidence.

If it's such a good thing why do atheist make it sound so bad?

Being delusional is a bad thing because it can (and usually does) lead to poor decisions, especially if we fail to recognize we might be wrong and truly or honestly consider the evidence that contradicts our beliefs.  What is good is recognizing that we might be delusional which is a modest opinion of ones own importance as opposed to someone who asserts they are not delusional and is by definition: humility.


He might as well say I believe in unicorns and if that makes me delusional so be it. 

Why might he as well say that?  Are you afraid that if he as a theist might be delusional that you would have to also be delusional?  I personally would not say you are delusional as I can't possibly know that with certainty.


I know you will have a hard time understanding why this upset me, understandably.  You can only see things from my perspective when you open your own mind up to it.

You know?  How do you know?  You are correct, I need to have an open mind to understand your perspective.  If I were to guess, it seems like you view the word "delusional" as an insult and I can certainly understand why insulting words are upsetting.  I don't view the word "delusional" as an insult.


This to me sounds like you have hope that OCG will change his way of thinking over to atheism, I don't think that's going to happen.

Nope, I only hope that OCG gains understanding and wisdom.  I have no horse in the race so to speak in regards to the position his understanding and wisdom leads him to whether it is atheism, Christianity or something else.

Calling yourself delusional has nothing to do with humility man.  That's just utterly ridiculous. 

Being aware that you might be wrong makes you humble, not insulting yourself and every other theist around.

I don't think he said he was in fact delusional, from my perspective he meant that he might be delusional.

I'm curious, how do you define the word "delusional"?

To me, someone saying they might be delusional is like saying they might be wrong.

If humility is such a good thing there would be more of it round here.

Humility isn't a common trait anywhere really, I see it here on these forums sometimes.  Sometimes though, people get competitive and are more interested in winning an argument than showing humility.
"Shut him up! We have a lot invested in this ride - SHUT HIM UP! Look at my furrows of worry! Look at my big bank account, and my family! This just HAS to be real!" - Bill Hicks

Offline Anfauglir

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6198
  • Darwins +408/-5
  • Gender: Male
Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #138 on: March 03, 2014, 01:59:46 PM »
None of us can provide the evidence needed here to prove God exists but we can prove that we're not all delusional. 

Can we?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline junebug72

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2032
  • Darwins +72/-83
  • Gender: Female
  • "Question Everything"
Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #139 on: March 05, 2014, 12:14:10 PM »
None of us can provide the evidence needed here to prove God exists but we can prove that we're not all delusional. 

Can we?

I have many times.  It's not my fault you only know how to debate Christian beliefs.

For you to prove me delusional you must prove God does not exist or that my reasons for that belief do not exist.

Joy,

JB
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine.html#XXwlhVIMq06zWg2d.99

Offline Anfauglir

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6198
  • Darwins +408/-5
  • Gender: Male
Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #140 on: March 06, 2014, 03:30:14 AM »
None of us can provide the evidence needed here to prove God exists but we can prove that we're not all delusional. 

Can we?

I have many times.  It's not my fault you only know how to debate Christian beliefs.

For you to prove me delusional you must prove God does not exist or that my reasons for that belief do not exist.

How do you prove to someone else that you are not delusional?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline junebug72

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2032
  • Darwins +72/-83
  • Gender: Female
  • "Question Everything"
Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #141 on: March 06, 2014, 12:16:42 PM »
I did not posit the claim so I do not have to prove it.  That is the responsibility of the accuser.  I have not been proven to be delusional.

Good Day,

JB

PS...I'm certainly not going to plead guilty as OCG has done.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine.html#XXwlhVIMq06zWg2d.99

Online SevenPatch

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 698
  • Darwins +108/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • A source will help me understand.
Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #142 on: March 06, 2014, 12:45:13 PM »
Can delusion be proven to be a certainty one way or the other?

Is it possible to be 100% certain that a person is not delusional?  If yes, what is the method for being 100% certain?

Is it possible to be 100% certain that a person is delusional? If yes, what is the method for being 100% certain?

100% certainty one way or the other is a "black and white" absolute. 

I personally answer no to 100% certainties because I don't think it is possible to know everything.  Knowing everything is IMO the only way to be 100% certain.  I live in a gray area where it is possible that I (and even everyone else) might be delusional while at the same time I (and even everyone else) might not be delusional.

If someone can't prove that I am delusional, does that mean I'm not delusional?

I answer no because that "someone" likely doesn't know everything do they?  If they don't know everything, and I don't know everything then both of us could be wrong.

Now, if "God" knows everything, then only "God" would know for certain if we are delusional or not.  However, only "God" knows, we do not.  If we do not know, then how can we assume to know?


NOTE: I may have asked some rhetorical questions.  Heh   :)
"Shut him up! We have a lot invested in this ride - SHUT HIM UP! Look at my furrows of worry! Look at my big bank account, and my family! This just HAS to be real!" - Bill Hicks

Offline junebug72

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2032
  • Darwins +72/-83
  • Gender: Female
  • "Question Everything"
Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #143 on: March 06, 2014, 03:21:33 PM »
Made me think of this song...

Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine.html#XXwlhVIMq06zWg2d.99

Offline junebug72

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2032
  • Darwins +72/-83
  • Gender: Female
  • "Question Everything"
Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #144 on: March 06, 2014, 03:23:30 PM »
Can delusion be proven to be a certainty one way or the other?

Is it possible to be 100% certain that a person is not delusional?  If yes, what is the method for being 100% certain?

Is it possible to be 100% certain that a person is delusional? If yes, what is the method for being 100% certain?

100% certainty one way or the other is a "black and white" absolute. 

I personally answer no to 100% certainties because I don't think it is possible to know everything.  Knowing everything is IMO the only way to be 100% certain.  I live in a gray area where it is possible that I (and even everyone else) might be delusional while at the same time I (and even everyone else) might not be delusional.

If someone can't prove that I am delusional, does that mean I'm not delusional?

I answer no because that "someone" likely doesn't know everything do they?  If they don't know everything, and I don't know everything then both of us could be wrong.

Now, if "God" knows everything, then only "God" would know for certain if we are delusional or not.  However, only "God" knows, we do not.  If we do not know, then how can we assume to know?


NOTE: I may have asked some rhetorical questions.  Heh   :)

I don't know it's not my problem.  I'm not the one with the burden of proof.

I know you did not say I was Seven.  I was speaking of someone else.

Your Special,

JB
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine.html#XXwlhVIMq06zWg2d.99