Author Topic: Sunday School Lessons  (Read 4276 times)

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Offline wheels5894

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Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #29 on: January 15, 2014, 01:51:18 PM »
Screwtape,

My point exactly.  You hit the nail on the head.  It never ceases to amaze me the knowledge you all have of the bible.  That includes you too Wheels. 


OCG,


To me this is your biggest challenge.  Convince me why I should trust modern translations of the bible compared to older translations.  This dilutes the message, IMO.  Also the political gain implications are obvious.  Convince me why I need religion at all to find my path to God.

1 thing right off the bat, God told either Moses or Abraham that he would not destroy the world again with water.  Now Jesus here is saying not only will we suffer the horrors of a world wide flood but be burned to death while doing so.  This doesn't even sound like the same man that preached the sermon on the mount.  Tell us to love one another as I have loved you is now like saying destroy one another, no? 

If any of this is true I hope we never see Jesus again.  Do you believe in the second coming of Christ?  Why or why not. 

It does matter to the gay person.  Nobody wants to be left behind.  ;)

Let me help you out here, June. The only way to be sure what the biblical texts say is to read them in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek, the original languages. Most people find this inconvenient hence translations. The thing is that translating is tough job as we have to try and translate colloquial expressions in the original languages into good, well let's say, English. Added to that, the grammar of these old languages is quite a bit different from English, especially the OT languages, which affects words order as well as tense usage. For example, Hebrew does so much have tenses as verbs that express either completed or uncompleted action which is fine until the author places a single letter as a prefix when the meaning swaps between the two forms to cause confusion.

Fortunately, over the centuries, we have been discovering lots of manuscripts that were not available at the time of the King James translation as well as finding lots of other documents that throw light on the meanings of words and sentences. As a result, we have a better idea of what the text means these days which is why modern translations are to be preferred. They vary a lot, though, in the way the translating is done. For example the New Revised Standard tries to keep the the original text as closely as possible - its sounds a great way of doing things but doesn't necessarily produce good English. The Good News bible works, mostly, by translating a sentence and then rendering it is good English even though it is not quite word for word accurate.

This is why I have suggested several different translations open on the desk to study passages as it helps with understanding the meaning. Always look at footnotes, by the way, as the translators often leave notes of alternative translations which also helps.

As a additional
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #30 on: January 15, 2014, 05:36:14 PM »

Quote
To me this is your biggest challenge.  Convince me why I should trust modern translations of the bible compared to older translations.  This dilutes the message, IMO.  Also the political gain implications are obvious.  Convince me why I need religion at all to find my path to God. 

It is not my place to convince you one translation is better than another.  I prefer the New International Version Study Bible which I've had for almost 30 years now.  I like it because it was the first study Bible I found that gave alternative footnotes.  For example, in Revelation 13, it translates the number of the leader as 666 but in the footnotes it adds that many of the earliest manuscripts have 616.  But, as Wheels has written, there are many translations out there.  If you are going to buy a Bible, I suggest either comparing certain passages that mean something to you just to see if any of them resonate with you.  Another idea is to simply buy a Parallel Bible which will have up to 4 translations side-by-side so you an see at a glance how the different translations pan out. 

I admit ignorance.  What are the obvious political implications with a more current translation? 

And it is not my place to convince you that you need religion at all to find your path to God.  When you say "religion" I presume you mean a church and/or a denomination?  If not, what do you mean by "religion". 

I get the impression you were not welcome in your church home when it became known you are a Lesbian.  All I can say is that you did NOT fail the church; the church failed you!  At least, from my perspective. 

Quote
1 thing right off the bat, God told either Moses or Abraham that he would not destroy the world again with water.  Now Jesus here is saying not only will we suffer the horrors of a world wide flood but be burned to death while doing so.  This doesn't even sound like the same man that preached the sermon on the mount.  Tell us to love one another as I have loved you is now like saying destroy one another, no? 

If any of this is true I hope we never see Jesus again.  Do you believe in the second coming of Christ?  Why or why not. 

It does matter to the gay person.  Nobody wants to be left behind.  ;)

Regarding Moses, Abraham and Revelation: If you believe all the books of the Bible are intertwined with one set of universal truths then you are correct that there are some real disconnects as you pointed out.  The standard answer is that your confusion is due to a lack of faith and that you should pray to the Holy Spirit for guidance.  Once that comes, all will become apparent and understandable. 

Maybe the prayer and answer has worked for some people.  I've known people (myself included) who raised these questions, prayed hard and sincerely, and didn't receive anything they recognized as an answer. In my case, I concluded each of us works out our relationship with God with fear and trembling.  The word "Israel" translates as "one who wrestles with God".  I think that sums up each theist very well.  Each of us is an Israel.  Yes, it would be nice if the Bible were clear cut, totally unified, and as logical as a good computer software program.  But, that is not the case. 

Regarding the Second Coming, I don't necessarily agree with the picture painted in Revelation.  Personally, I think each of us experiences a "second coming" at the point of death where we are met by a loving God and escorted to Heaven.  It is my sincere hope in Heaven the first thing I see is a sign pointing to a lecture hall and the sign is titled "God Explains It All".  Maybe then I can FINALLY get answers.  :)

What is your take on the Second Coming of Christ?

Can I prove any of these beliefs are correct?  No.  Can I guarantee that I am right?  No. 

If it turns out God is as petty and vindictive as portrayed, then I am doomed to Hell with billions of others.   

End of lecture. 

This post is turning into quite an enjoyable theology / Sunday School class. 

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle - Philo of Alexandria

Whether one believes in a religion or not, and whether one believes in rebirth or not, there isn't anyone who doesn't appreciate kindness and compassion - Dalai Lama

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #31 on: January 15, 2014, 10:10:32 PM »
^If God really exists and is such a petty and vindictive deity, you'll be in good company, OCG.

It reminds me of something I read a long while back.  The difference between heaven and hell is as simple as everyone having an itch they can never scratch on their own - and whether they're all off suffering on their own, or arranged so each person can scratch another's back.

Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #32 on: January 15, 2014, 10:20:22 PM »
^If God really exists and is such a petty and vindictive deity, you'll be in good company, OCG.

It reminds me of something I read a long while back.  The difference between heaven and hell is as simple as everyone having an itch they can never scratch on their own - and whether they're all off suffering on their own, or arranged so each person can scratch another's back.

Thanks. 

It will just be so irritating to realize the literalists were right after all.  :)

As always,

OldChurchGuy
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle - Philo of Alexandria

Whether one believes in a religion or not, and whether one believes in rebirth or not, there isn't anyone who doesn't appreciate kindness and compassion - Dalai Lama

Online junebug72

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Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #33 on: January 16, 2014, 08:00:35 AM »
I don't believe in Armageddon.  I think it is a fear tactic used to control the masses.  I don't think that a being intelligent enough to create all this could be so cruel.  I think God has nothing but compassion for us all.

I think that it's sad so many people believe this stuff.

I'm confused OCG, are you a Christian?  How do you justify this title?  Shoot I argued until I was blue in the face to NOT be called a Christian here, because I'm not, but it seems as if you and I are very similar in our beliefs and it's NOT because I'm a Christian.  There are certain things that are synonymous with Christianity and the second coming of Christ is one of them, gays going to hell is another and the bible is God's word.

If it is not your place to chose a path to God why are you teaching a Sunday School Class promoting Christianity?  Does this church have Sunday School for younger children?  If so it seems as if you are promoting brainwashing.  I would not associate myself with that name.  It's sad because I know there are good people out there that are Christians but a few bad apples do spoil the whole bunch.  It is a lifestyle not many can live up to and I believe it creates low self esteems no matter how you spin it because of the bible.  It's like for every positive you find in it there are two negatives.  How could a superior being such as God be involved at all?  When biblical authors attached Jesus to the Old Ways they did a much worse horror to him than hang him on a cross.  To me to be a part of organized religion is the worse display of disrespect you could show to Jesus.  Do you really think we could possibly have different definitions of religion.  It's organized worship/belief.  Although I wouldn't really say Christianity is organized it's all over the place.  I think you get the just of it though.  Christians have done way too much damage over the years to let it continue.  I just don't know how the religion could bounce back with all the blood and hate it has on it's hands.

From here it's like you're saying you believe the bible but you don't.  I think the story of Jesus is tricky.  It's even hard to determine if it's real or not.   I guess I'm asking why you, OCG, needs a bible at all?  I myself wish I had never known of it.  I guess I did learn how not to believe. ;)

« Last Edit: January 16, 2014, 08:07:07 AM by junebug72 »
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Online junebug72

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Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #34 on: January 16, 2014, 09:10:15 AM »
Quote
I get the impression you were not welcome in your church home when it became known you are a Lesbian.  All I can say is that you did NOT fail the church; the church failed you!  At least, from my perspective.


No man my parents took us out of the church before I knew I was gay.  I was 11-12.   My mom was tired of gossip!  The family, society and the church let me down.  I have been held from promotions I earned because of my sexual identity. The bible taught the stuff to my family and society which still plagues us to this day.  Most of my family/society thinks I'm on The Highway to Hell no matter how hard I try.  They think they will go to hell if they don't tell me I'm going to hell.  It doesn't matter that I took better care of the elders than them, it doesn't matter how much good I do or even that I actually believe in God.  All that matters to them is I'm gay, done deal.  The biggest pervert in the family is in heaven but I'm going to hell.  Sometimes it's hard to believe I share DNA with these people.  I guess that's what I get for being a hillbilly.

Speaking of; did anybody see that humiliating comic strip before the playoff game Sunday?  Y'all just don't know unless you live down here. I live in one of the more civilized cities in NC, but there is still a lot of rednecks with these Old Timey religious beliefs.  They hurt society and break up families but they are proud to be rednecks.  Let's don't forget how much controversy they stir. 

I live in the same city as Billy Graham.  He is a real big deal here.  It is news every time he has pneumonia.  When I was about 18-19  years old, 20 years ago, I saw him come out of a local shopping center with a Holly's Cuties store in it with an erection.  That was back in my atheist years.  I couldn't believe my eyes.  I was in the parking lot getting stoned, not to death, but smoking a joint.  I have never hallucinated from pot.  I can never look at Billy w/o lmao.

Later on just a few years ago he was doing a section in our local paper.  I did not agree with what he said, so I called the number given for questions.  I was not at all rude to the young man that answered the phone but I got hung up on.  I believe my question was;  if God gives a gift to a person to help humanity;  should that person really charge money for it, that is not the message I got from Jesus?   

He said a public prayer a few months back that called poor people lazy instead of having compassion.
 
This man advises Presidents!  Come on now!

I'm sharing this only so you can know me better.  I was more than just let down, I was almost destroyed.  I believe God saved me from the devastating tragedy that was my childhood.  I needed help from somewhere and it was the only place I had to go. 

One more question I have, I'm trying to understand your take on the bible, that's all.  What parts do you cherish and what parts do you discard?  What hold does it have on you that makes you continue to study it?  Do you think it's possible to know God w/o it? Do you think other ancient god beliefs are also enlightening such as Hinduism, Native American, Mayan, Egyptian, Greek, Roman or Buddhism?

JB
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #35 on: January 16, 2014, 09:18:44 AM »
I can't speak for him, but the word 'Christian' means different things to different people.  The most basic definition is someone who believes in Jesus Christ as their savior, and I'm not even sure if that applies to all Christians.  Not all Christians believe in a second coming, not all Christians believe that homosexuals are going to hell, and not all Christians believe the Bible is the inerrant word of God.

Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #36 on: January 16, 2014, 09:35:03 AM »
Quote
I don't believe in Armageddon.  I think it is a fear tactic used to control the masses.  I don't think that a being intelligent enough to create all this could be so cruel.  I think God has nothing but compassion for us all.

I think that it's sad so many people believe this stuff.

I agree

Quote
I'm confused OCG, are you a Christian?  How do you justify this title?  Shoot I argued until I was blue in the face to NOT be called a Christian here, because I'm not, but it seems as if you and I are very similar in our beliefs and it's NOT because I'm a Christian.  There are certain things that are synonymous with Christianity and the second coming of Christ is one of them, gays going to hell is another and the bible is God's word.

Yes, I am a Christian theist (as opposed to a Jewish theist, Muslim theist, Hindu theist, etc.) although I have concluded I may not be the typical theist that comes to this website.  I justify the title because I accepted Jesus the Christ as my personal Lord and Savior many years ago and I grew up in the Christian church (Episcopalian, Disciples of Christ and now with the Presbyterians USA).  Since you and I seem to have similar beliefs, I think you are a very smart person.  :)

Even with similar beliefs, that is no guarantee I am a Christian in the eyes of various individuals and denominations.  I can't even guaratnee I am a Christian in the eyes of God.  I believe I am but have no proof one way or the other.  Therefore, it is entirely possible neither of us are Christians.  And, to me anyway, it is equally possible we are both Christians. 

I differ with you that gays are going to Hell.  I just can't wrap my mind around a caring loving God looking at someone's sexual orientation and saying, "Sorry.  You gays go to Hell.  All heterosexuals, follow me!".  Especially in light of the advances in medicine which indicate (not prove) sexual orientation may be genetic. 

Would you mind elaborating what "the Bible is God's word" means to you? 

Quote
If it is not your place to chose a path to God why are you teaching a Sunday School Class promoting Christianity?  Does this church have Sunday School for younger children?  If so it seems as if you are promoting brainwashing.  I would not associate myself with that name.  It's sad because I know there are good people out there that are Christians but a few bad apples do spoil the whole bunch.  It is a lifestyle not many can live up to and I believe it creates low self esteems no matter how you spin it because of the bible.  It's like for every positive you find in it there are two negatives.  How could a superior being such as God be involved at all?  When biblical authors attached Jesus to the Old Ways they did a much worse horror to him than hang him on a cross.  To me to be a part of organized religion is the worse display of disrespect you could show to Jesus.  Do you really think we could possibly have different definitions of religion.  It's organized worship/belief.  Although I wouldn't really say Christianity is organized it's all over the place.  I think you get the just of it though.  Christians have done way too much damage over the years to let it continue.  I just don't know how the religion could bounce back with all the blood and hate it has on it's hands.

I teach Sunday School because I enjoy doing it and I truly enjoy the exchange of ideas and beliefs.  I think all high schoolers are smart enough to explore the profund questions of the time including the ancient onces such as God's existense.  My delight is exploring the various viewpoints, presenting them to the kids and then asking them which one do they like and why?  I will often take the opposing view with qustions just to see if they are saying something they believe or if they are saying something they think I want to hear.  High Schoolers and adults need a place where they can freely and openly discuss their joys and doubts about theism, in my opinion. 

I agree Christianity is not easy (if only God had said something like "Love your neightbor as yourself unless they really really REALLY tick you off) and, depending on the particular spin, it can promote low seof-esteem through guilt.  And, yes, there are exceptions.  One that comes immediately to mind is Tony Campollo who is a strong literalist but his emphasis is on grace and love rather than grace and guilt.

Quote
From here it's like you're saying you believe the bible but you don't.  I think the story of Jesus is tricky.  It's even hard to determine if it's real or not.   I guess I'm asking why you, OCG, needs a bible at all?  I myself wish I had never known of it.  I guess I did learn how not to believe. ;)

As I said earlier, I believe the Bible is a collection of stories written by many people over the centuries each trying to describe what it is like to experience God.  I don't worry anymore about making it unified.  I need a Bible as it is a source of understanding something about God that I haven't gotten from anywhere else. 

You come across as a very caring loving soul and I am deeply saddened the church failed you.  If you are happy as an atheist, then I am happy for you.  If you decide to explore theism and maybe embrace it again some time in the future, I am also happy for you. 

End of lecture.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle - Philo of Alexandria

Whether one believes in a religion or not, and whether one believes in rebirth or not, there isn't anyone who doesn't appreciate kindness and compassion - Dalai Lama

Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #37 on: January 16, 2014, 10:43:13 AM »
Quote
One more question I have, I'm trying to understand your take on the bible, that's all.  What parts do you cherish and what parts do you discard?  What hold does it have on you that makes you continue to study it?  Do you think it's possible to know God w/o it? Do you think other ancient god beliefs are also enlightening such as Hinduism, Native American, Mayan, Egyptian, Greek, Roman or Buddhism?

JB

For me, the book of the Bible I cherish most is Ecclesiastes.  Maybe because it is one of those books that shouldn't be there because it runs so contrary to mainline theology.  I think the central message is this: If you have a roof over your head, clothes on your back and food on your table then you have everything.  Anything beyond that is gravy.  Be grateful for the gravy but never think you were entitled to it. 

I'm not sure I discard any book in the Bible but the hardest one for me to read is Isaiah.  It is written more like poetry than a narrative and I just have trouble grasping it.  Other people I know absolutely love it and wish the whole Bible was written in that style.  Go figure. 

I think the hold it has on me is that even after reading it through multiple times and leading Sunday School classes for 30+ years with high school and adults, there is always something new to discover.  It just seems to be a lifelong journey of discovery and learning. 

Abraham and Moses knew God without it so, yes, I would say it is possible to know God without the Bible.  Personally, I can't imagine such a thing  but I think it is silly to rule out a possibility just because it does not make sense to me. 

I have led some comparative religion studies in the past and was amazed at their parallels of love and tolerance.  I haven't studied them much in depth because I have my hands full with the Hewbrew Bible and the New Testament writings. 

If I may ask:

What parts of the Bible do you cherish? 

What parts of the Bible do you discard?

Do you think it's possible to know God without the Bible?

Do you think other ancient god beliefs are also enlightening such as Hinduism, Native American, Mayan, Egyptian, Greek, Roman or Buddhism?

Do you see yourself as an atheist or a theist?

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle - Philo of Alexandria

Whether one believes in a religion or not, and whether one believes in rebirth or not, there isn't anyone who doesn't appreciate kindness and compassion - Dalai Lama

Online junebug72

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Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #38 on: January 16, 2014, 10:53:54 AM »
I can't speak for him, but the word 'Christian' means different things to different people.  The most basic definition is someone who believes in Jesus Christ as their savior, and I'm not even sure if that applies to all Christians.  Not all Christians believe in a second coming, not all Christians believe that homosexuals are going to hell, and not all Christians believe the Bible is the inerrant word of God.

Well then it seems like anybody can call themselves a Christian these days, that's what the locals 'round here would say.  That's not the rules here where I come from.  Anyway they all come from the bible.  If Jesus Christ is your savior how do you justify a church?  According to Jesus out of the bible, that is sometimes true sometimes not, it is not right to stand in public and make long speeches.

By the by, I said it was synonymous to Christianity the religion not Christians.  I clearly said there are good people that are Christian.  I did say they were all over the place.

Another point here Jesus plainly foretells his second coming like a thief in the night.  So in denying the second coming to a lot of Christians I know,  you are denying a very significant part of their beliefs.  I don't even think you can find the word "rapture" in the bible.  Clearly Jesus tells us what it will be like in the scripture I posted; the second coming that is.

Thanks for your input.

JB
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #39 on: January 16, 2014, 11:35:03 AM »
OCG,

I am a theist no need for the descriptive titles.  I have studied some or a lot of all religions.  I have not limited myself to just one perspective of God, there are many.  Buddhism is one of my favorites along with Native American.  Very peaceful stuff.  Unlike Christianity rooted in a bible that I believe disgraces God many times.

I don't believe in hell, I believe in a Loving God, that has compassion for the human condition called mortality, hunger and fear.  That is not the God Moses and Abraham believed in, in any version of a bible.  Moses is responsible for so much blood if you believe that Moses ever existed.  If not then some made up character is responsible for a lot of death and suffering.

I think Moses and Abraham preyed on belief to control and put fear in the soul of their enemies and their constituents. 

OK it is clear you do not get your belief of Jesus's second coming from the bible, where do you get the idea that death is an introduction to Jesus rather than the horror story the bible tells/ Jesus tells in the scriptures I posted?

I know I asked a lot of questions so I understand how you missed 1 or 2. ;)

I asked if your church had Sunday School for children under high school age? 

I asked if you think you are promoting a religion that is covered in innocent blood? 

Not those words exactly, but it's the same just simplified.

I agree very enjoyable conversation.  I think you're a smart caring man as well. To me right now you are almost too good to be real.  I hope we can learn something from each other. 

I have learned so much more about God from right here than I ever learned from a bible.  You should really get out there and challenge the atheist perspective, man you can learn a lot just by answering all their questions.  It has been a huge blessing to me.  Like I say I believe there are many paths to God.

Like where does God come from?  Where is your evidence?  Why does God allow a grown man to rape and murder a little girl? Where was her free will?  I learned a lot by answering these questions here and I did not need a bible to do it.  Questions are just examples of how I learned here, no need to answer these.  We agree in the possibility of God.

Strange our paths haven't crossed before now, I've been around here posting like crazy for almost a year now.  It is good to meet you though.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Online junebug72

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Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #40 on: January 16, 2014, 11:40:28 AM »
Quote
If I may ask:

What parts of the Bible do you cherish? 

What parts of the Bible do you discard?

Do you think it's possible to know God without the Bible?

Do you think other ancient god beliefs are also enlightening such as Hinduism, Native American, Mayan, Egyptian, Greek, Roman or Buddhism?

Do you see yourself as an atheist or a theist?

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

None of it really.  I would like to believe there was a loving man named Jesus but the bible is so indecisive, IDK.

All of it.

Absolutely, I think w/o the bible you can get even closer to God.  You already think outside the bible box so you should be able to relate here.

I answered that already. ;)

Theist. No religion necessary.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #41 on: January 16, 2014, 12:26:05 PM »
My belief has always been  this - Junebug can believe in god the way it works for her; Old Church Guy believes the way it works for him; I don't believe at all.  Two of us must be wrong, but life goes on.  There is no need for civilized people to insist that others believe or not believe the same as they do.  That is what I respect about OGC - he simply explains his views without demanding that the reader comply with them and in no way demeans the views anyone else presented.  I'll bet his Sunday School students come away with a lot more thinking skills than they bargained for.
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #42 on: January 16, 2014, 01:36:14 PM »
My belief has always been  this - Junebug can believe in god the way it works for her; Old Church Guy believes the way it works for him; I don't believe at all.  Two of us must be wrong, but life goes on.  There is no need for civilized people to insist that others believe or not believe the same as they do.  That is what I respect about OGC - he simply explains his views without demanding that the reader comply with them and in no way demeans the views anyone else presented.  I'll bet his Sunday School students come away with a lot more thinking skills than they bargained for.

What you are saying is god belief is completely irrelevant.  Because I can think of no other thing where such varying beliefs carry no repurcussions in reality.  Reality should matter.  Truth should matter.  This is because it is what we have to deal with.  If it makes no difference whether you believe in god or not, it means, god is not entangled with reality.  That puts on on equal footing with the easter bunny. 
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Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #43 on: January 16, 2014, 01:44:50 PM »
My belief has always been  this - Junebug can believe in god the way it works for her; Old Church Guy believes the way it works for him; I don't believe at all.  Two of us must be wrong, but life goes on.  There is no need for civilized people to insist that others believe or not believe the same as they do.  That is what I respect about OGC - he simply explains his views without demanding that the reader comply with them and in no way demeans the views anyone else presented.  I'll bet his Sunday School students come away with a lot more thinking skills than they bargained for.

I have never insisted that anyone here believe the same way I do.  If anything many here try to force their views on theist, IMO.  All I have ever done is answer questions and share my beliefs.  It's OCG not OGC.  I have said from the beginning that I respect the atheist POV.  I do not respect name calling or condescending arrogance.  So I guess I don't respect your opinion here.   I have never until the fight with Nam been disrespectful to anyone here. 

I'm sure the kind and respectful OCG doesn't like being used as a way to hurt junebug.  I'm tired of hearing about why you respect him and not me.  I mean really LPA, I thought you were nicer than this.  It is not civilized to disrespect me for no good reason at all. 

How would you like being disrespected for no darn good reason at all.  This behavior is as bad as Christians shouting we're all going to hell.

Yes they do seem lucky to have an open minded guide. 

No actually we could all be wrong. 

It's good to know where I stand with you LPA.  You know what calling out a bunch of name calling and childish behavior is why no body likes me.  I spoiled all the fun calling Christian names.

OCG,  what do you think about using name calling in an adult conversation?  Keep in mind please that I'm not the one putting you in this position.  I mean you no harm or disrespect. 

Maybe I should tell you the whole story and let you be the judge.  I could really use a friend here.  It's a long one or I would say please go over my posts and tell me what you think.  As you can see society is still letting me down.  Have you ever been called an attention whore?  I was called a liar about having cancer and I've been called delusional, mentally ill, stupid, ignorant, an idiot...and worst of all I do not deserve respect.  Do you think that is anyway to treat a fellow human being?

You know what I don't need you to answer any of this.  I just want LPA to see what she has done; Opened up a can of worms. I wouldn't be involved in it but I don't have a choice.  I'm the one every body loves to hate. 

« Last Edit: January 16, 2014, 02:11:43 PM by junebug72 »
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Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #44 on: January 16, 2014, 01:57:59 PM »
My belief has always been  this - Junebug can believe in god the way it works for her; Old Church Guy believes the way it works for him; I don't believe at all.  Two of us must be wrong, but life goes on.  There is no need for civilized people to insist that others believe or not believe the same as they do.  That is what I respect about OGC - he simply explains his views without demanding that the reader comply with them and in no way demeans the views anyone else presented.  I'll bet his Sunday School students come away with a lot more thinking skills than they bargained for.

What you are saying is god belief is completely irrelevant.  Because I can think of no other thing where such varying beliefs carry no repurcussions in reality.  Reality should matter.  Truth should matter.  This is because it is what we have to deal with.  If it makes no difference whether you believe in god or not, it means, god is not entangled with reality.  That puts on on equal footing with the easter bunny.

Belief in God is not irrelevant to me.  What's with the double on's and it's repercussions?  It gives me hope in a life not like this one.  Maybe if I hadn't suffered so much I wouldn't need God the way I do.  I wouldn't look forward to death.  Yes sometimes I long for it.  My love for my son, grandson and TR keep me moving on.  Although I don't believe we'd all die if we all stopped believing right now.  This is just how I survive.

I am happy that you don't need God in your life.  I do need God in mine until I can trust my fellow man.  We are all different but the same.

The Easter Bunny  ;) Good one!
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Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #45 on: January 16, 2014, 02:25:19 PM »
My belief has always been  this - Junebug can believe in god the way it works for her; Old Church Guy believes the way it works for him; I don't believe at all.  Two of us must be wrong, but life goes on.  There is no need for civilized people to insist that others believe or not believe the same as they do.  That is what I respect about OGC - he simply explains his views without demanding that the reader comply with them and in no way demeans the views anyone else presented.  I'll bet his Sunday School students come away with a lot more thinking skills than they bargained for.vly

What you are saying is god belief is completely irrelevant.  Because I can think of no other thing where such varying beliefs carry no repurcussions in reality.  Reality should matter.  Truth should matter.  This is because it is what we have to deal with.  If it makes no difference whether you believe in god or not, it means, god is not entangled with reality.  That puts on on equal footing with the easter bunny.

Sometimes people's beliefs do carry repercussions.  Obviously groups such as the Taliban, Westboro Baptists, Teaparty, KKK and others who actively use their beliefs to oppress and hurt others carry heavy repercussions.  But mild mannered individuals and groups who use their faith to attempt to spread peace, acceptance and love are a different story.  If groups who are accustomed to being marginalized find a place where they are embraced and supported among these people then their misguided, cherry picked version of faith is not necessarily the worst environment for them to be in if the other option is feeling excluded and hated.  I do think ultimately truth should get out there.  The secular groups need to make a louder noise in outreach and spreading the truth in an appealing manner.
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Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #46 on: January 16, 2014, 03:02:45 PM »
I have never insisted that anyone here believe the same way I do. 

She never said you did. 

It's OCG not OGC.

do you, of all people, really want to be pedantic?  Glass houses, ya know...

 
I mean really LPA, I thought you were nicer than this.

She is.  All the offense is on your end of it. 


I just want LPA to see what she has done; Opened up a can of worms.

No, what she did was say something rather neutral and bland and you went off half cocked. 

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Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #47 on: January 16, 2014, 03:15:02 PM »
What's with the double on's and it's repercussions?

my fingers and thoughts do not always synch up.  I actually make errors like that a lot, but I usuall catch them.  They are tough for the brain to pick up, though.  It sees one and skips over the second.

It should have read: "That puts god on equal footing with the easter bunny"

What I was trying to express was the idea that if everyone gets to believe completely different things about a particular idea and the truth values are all equal, the the idea is irrelevant.  You, junebug and OCG could not hold such divergent beliefs about gravity or cars or poisons.  But you can about things like leprechauns, UFOs and ESP.

There is an essay I like that says beliefs should pay rent.[1]  That means, beliefs should reflect reality.  They should improve your model of how the universe works.  It should help you make accurate predictions.  Believing gravity on earth accelerates objects at 9.81 m/s2 pays rent better than believing it accelerates objects at 10 m/s2.  But a belief that gravity is orange pays not rent.  It is harmless, but also completely useless. 



 1. http://lesswrong.com/lw/i3/making_beliefs_pay_rent_in_anticipated_experiences/
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Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #48 on: January 16, 2014, 03:15:10 PM »
My belief has always been  this - Junebug can believe in god the way it works for her; Old Church Guy believes the way it works for him; I don't believe at all.  Two of us must be wrong, but life goes on.  There is no need for civilized people to insist that others believe or not believe the same as they do.  That is what I respect about OGC - he simply explains his views without demanding that the reader comply with them and in no way demeans the views anyone else presented.  I'll bet his Sunday School students come away with a lot more thinking skills than they bargained for.

I have never insisted that anyone here believe the same way I do.  If anything many here try to force their views on theist, IMO.  All I have ever done is answer questions and share my beliefs.

Maybe it's the nuances I am getting from your responses but they come off as aggressive and argumentative to me.

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It's OCG not OGC.
  Please, please, please forgive my completely accidental typographical error.  I absolutely meant no disrespect by transposing the initials and spell check did not identify this egregious error.
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I have said from the beginning that I respect the atheist POV.  I do not respect name calling or condescending arrogance.

Please provide examples of 1) name calling, 2) condescending arrogance in the post you quoted.
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 So I guess I don't respect your opinion here.   I have never until the fight with Nam been disrespectful to anyone here.

WTF does this have to do with Nam?  Why must you perseverate on dragging his name out every time you feel insulted by someone's response?
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I'm sure the kind and respectful OCG doesn't like being used as a way to hurt junebug  I'm tired of hearing about why you respect him and not me   
 

No one is trying to use anyone to hurt junebug.  Believe it or not, the world does not revolve around junebug.  Just because respect is given to OCG does not be disrespect is intended toward junbug.
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I mean really LPA, I thought you were nicer than this.

I suppose here is where I am supposed to  insert a wall of text about how hurt I am the you say I am not nice.  Well I won't.  I'm not.
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It is not civilized to disrespect me for no good reason at all. 

How would you like being disrespected for no darn good reason at all.  This behavior is as bad as Christians shouting we're all going to hell.

Another unnecessary rant. No disrespect was given.  If you were offended by the use of the word civilized that's too bad.  You responded to every post of OCG with what I perceived as aggression and disagreement.
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No actually we could all be wrong. 

Possibly...
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It's good to know where I stand with you LPA.

Honestly, I think you may be suffering from some lingering side effects of your chemo which are exacerbating your normally erratic behavior.  I am not a doctor but maybe you should see one.
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You know what calling out a bunch of name calling and childish behavior is why no body likes me.  I all the fun calling Christian names.

Again, please provide evidence of one name I have called you or evidence of childish behavior aimed at you.
Quote

OCG,  what do you think about using name calling in an adult conversation?  Keep in mind please that I'm not the one putting you in this position.  I mean you no harm or disrespect. 

Bringing others into your battles is a tactic called "splitting" which is a trait of Borderline Personality Disorder.  Just sayin'.
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>>>snipped<<<

 I just want LPA to see what she has done; Opened up a can of worms. I wouldn't be involved in it but I don't have a choice.  I'm the one every body loves to hate.

Completely blown out of proportion.  All I stated was this:

My belief has always been  this - Junebug can believe in god the way it works for her; Old Church Guy believes the way it works for him; I don't believe at all.  Two of us must be wrong, but life goes on.  There is no need for civilized people to insist that others believe or not believe the same as they do.  That is what I respect about OGC - he simply explains his views without demanding that the reader comply with them and in no way demeans the views anyone else presented.  I'll bet his Sunday School students come away with a lot more thinking skills than they bargained for.

...and from that you took that everybody hates junebug?  Seriously?  You need help.
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #49 on: January 16, 2014, 04:40:35 PM »
my fingers and thoughts do not always synch up.  I actually make errors like that a lot, but I usuall catch them.  They are tough for the brain to pick up, though.  It sees one and skips over the second.

It should have read: "That puts god on equal footing with the easter bunny"

What I was trying to express was the idea that if everyone gets to believe completely different things about a particular idea and the truth values are all equal, the the idea is irrelevant.  You, junebug and OCG could not hold such divergent beliefs about gravity or cars or poisons.  But you can about things like leprechauns, UFOs and ESP.

There is an essay I like that says beliefs should pay rent.[1]  That means, beliefs should reflect reality.  They should improve your model of how the universe works.  It should help you make accurate predictions.  Believing gravity on earth accelerates objects at 9.81 m/s2 pays rent better than believing it accelerates objects at 10 m/s2.  But a belief that gravity is orange pays not rent.  It is harmless, but also completely useless.
 1. http://lesswrong.com/lw/i3/making_beliefs_pay_rent_in_anticipated_experiences/

I think that the belief-paying-rent analogy can be acceptable to the "it's OK to believe bulls**t" crowd.

Think of it in terms of beliefs all being roommates in the apartment of your mind, and they each contribute to the pool of rent money.  When the rent is due (in this case, any time a decision that takes place in reality is made the rent is due - because reality is the landlord), you take the funds from the pool.  Some of the roommates are lazy jerks (John GravityIsOrange is basically the guy on the couch); some of the roommates are rather nefarious and actually steal from the pool (Bob GodDoesNotLikeTehGays steals a $10 spot every once in a while for a drink); and some make substantial contributions (Alice HotThingsBurn puts 50% of her paycheck into the pool).

As long as the people in your apartment don't screw with the people in the other apartments (other actual people's minds), and as long as your apartment pays the minimum amount of rent, then all should be honky-dory.  So this allows for someone to have a crazy, detrimental, relevant roommate (Gerry BodyThetansCauseProblems live here) so long as at least one (likely many more) other roommate(s) can make up for the slack or stealing (Tori, Amber, Amanda, and Regina NoOneDeservesToSuffer all live here too), then it is acceptable to have someone like Gerry BodyThetansCauseProblems living in the apartment.

The question then is: how much is the rent?

I realize that the analogy is pretty sloppy - I'm doing this a bit 'stream of consciousness' and I confess that I haven't thought this through very deeply.  For example, I have no idea how to establish what the rent is.  But I think what I'm saying with the analogy is that measuring the relevancy of a belief is meaningless outside of comparing it's realized impact in light of the totality of other beliefs that a person has.
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Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #50 on: January 16, 2014, 07:23:00 PM »
Quote
OK it is clear you do not get your belief of Jesus's second coming from the bible, where do you get the idea that death is an introduction to Jesus rather than the horror story the bible tells/ Jesus tells in the scriptures I posted?

I have nothing to base it on so far as the Bible goes.  Both the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament are rather quiet about specifics of the after life.   

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I know I asked a lot of questions so I understand how you missed 1 or 2. ;)

I asked if your church had Sunday School for children under high school age? 

I asked if you think you are promoting a religion that is covered in innocent blood? 

Yes, the church has Sunday School for children under high school age.  Preschool, elementary and middle school as I recall.

Never thought of it that way.  But, no, I don't think we are promoting a religion covered in innocent blood. 

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Not those words exactly, but it's the same just simplified.

I agree very enjoyable conversation.  I think you're a smart caring man as well. To me right now you are almost too good to be real.  I hope we can learn something from each other. 

I have learned so much more about God from right here than I ever learned from a bible.  You should really get out there and challenge the atheist perspective, man you can learn a lot just by answering all their questions.  It has been a huge blessing to me.  Like I say I believe there are many paths to God.

Like where does God come from?  Where is your evidence?  Why does God allow a grown man to rape and murder a little girl? Where was her free will?  I learned a lot by answering these questions here and I did not need a bible to do it.  Questions are just examples of how I learned here, no need to answer these.  We agree in the possibility of God.

Strange our paths haven't crossed before now, I've been around here posting like crazy for almost a year now.  It is good to meet you though.

Where does God come from?  I have no idea. 

Where is my evidence?  If you mean evidence of God then I have none other than my personal experiences.  I've had a series of experiences of the years which I conclude are more than random chance or coincidence.  I cannot rule out random chance or coincidence entirely, but, for now, I am OK chalking it up to God.  If that makes me a delusional theist, so be it. 

I have no idea why God allows a man to rape and murder a little girl.  The problem of evil is one which has bothered all philosophers and theists from the beginning of time. 

I was active on this website then took some time off.  I allowed a response to upset my ego (sad to say).  Took me awhile but I returned rather recently.  So, it makes sense we have not connected before now. 

I agree about learning much from this website.  My discussions / exchanges with the people here has helped me answer the question "Just what do I believe and why?"

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy
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Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #51 on: January 16, 2014, 07:33:03 PM »
My belief has always been  this - Junebug can believe in god the way it works for her; Old Church Guy believes the way it works for him; I don't believe at all.  Two of us must be wrong, but life goes on.  There is no need for civilized people to insist that others believe or not believe the same as they do.  That is what I respect about OGC - he simply explains his views without demanding that the reader comply with them and in no way demeans the views anyone else presented.  I'll bet his Sunday School students come away with a lot more thinking skills than they bargained for.

What you are saying is god belief is completely irrelevant.  Because I can think of no other thing where such varying beliefs carry no repurcussions in reality.  Reality should matter.  Truth should matter.  This is because it is what we have to deal with.  If it makes no difference whether you believe in god or not, it means, god is not entangled with reality.  That puts on on equal footing with the easter bunny.

You make a good point (as usual).  I consider God as part of my reality.  Perhaps my theism is on par with the Easter Bunny. 

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy 
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Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #52 on: January 16, 2014, 07:45:07 PM »
Quote

OCG,  what do you think about using name calling in an adult conversation?  Keep in mind please that I'm not the one putting you in this position.  I mean you no harm or disrespect. 

I've never been a fan of such behavior but confess I was sorely tempted to join in with the recent writings of Jesuis. 


Quote
Maybe I should tell you the whole story and let you be the judge.  I could really use a friend here.  It's a long one or I would say please go over my posts and tell me what you think.  As you can see society is still letting me down.  Have you ever been called an attention whore?  I was called a liar about having cancer and I've been called delusional, mentally ill, stupid, ignorant, an idiot...and worst of all I do not deserve respect.  Do you think that is anyway to treat a fellow human being?

You know what I don't need you to answer any of this.  I just want LPA to see what she has done; Opened up a can of worms. I wouldn't be involved in it but I don't have a choice.  I'm the one every body loves to hate.

I honestly don't see where LPA said anything disrespectful or opened up a can of worms. 

Sounds like you have been mistreated and I am saddened by that.  How come some one would accuse you of lying of being diagnosed with cancer?  I will do my best to show you respect. 

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy
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Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #53 on: January 16, 2014, 07:46:55 PM »
What's with the double on's and it's repercussions?

my fingers and thoughts do not always synch up.  I actually make errors like that a lot, but I usuall catch them.  They are tough for the brain to pick up, though.  It sees one and skips over the second.

It should have read: "That puts god on equal footing with the easter bunny"

What I was trying to express was the idea that if everyone gets to believe completely different things about a particular idea and the truth values are all equal, the the idea is irrelevant.  You, junebug and OCG could not hold such divergent beliefs about gravity or cars or poisons.  But you can about things like leprechauns, UFOs and ESP.

There is an essay I like that says beliefs should pay rent.[1]  That means, beliefs should reflect reality.  They should improve your model of how the universe works.  It should help you make accurate predictions.  Believing gravity on earth accelerates objects at 9.81 m/s2 pays rent better than believing it accelerates objects at 10 m/s2.  But a belief that gravity is orange pays not rent.  It is harmless, but also completely useless.
 1. http://lesswrong.com/lw/i3/making_beliefs_pay_rent_in_anticipated_experiences/

Interesting idea and link.  Thanks.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle - Philo of Alexandria

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Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #54 on: January 16, 2014, 08:23:50 PM »
What's with the double on's and it's repercussions?

my fingers and thoughts do not always synch up.  I actually make errors like that a lot, but I usuall catch them.  They are tough for the brain to pick up, though.  It sees one and skips over the second.

It should have read: "That puts god on equal footing with the easter bunny"

What I was trying to express was the idea that if everyone gets to believe completely different things about a particular idea and the truth values are all equal, the the idea is irrelevant.  You, junebug and OCG could not hold such divergent beliefs about gravity or cars or poisons.  But you can about things like leprechauns, UFOs and ESP.

There is an essay I like that says beliefs should pay rent.[1]  That means, beliefs should reflect reality.  They should improve your model of how the universe works.  It should help you make accurate predictions.  Believing gravity on earth accelerates objects at 9.81 m/s2 pays rent better than believing it accelerates objects at 10 m/s2.  But a belief that gravity is orange pays not rent.  It is harmless, but also completely useless.
 1. http://lesswrong.com/lw/i3/making_beliefs_pay_rent_in_anticipated_experiences/

Interesting idea and link.  Thanks.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

I started a new thread to run with the Beliefs as Rent theme...
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

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Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #55 on: January 17, 2014, 04:41:55 AM »
Bickering will cease, please, and we will return to the Sunday School Lessons topic.

If anyone has an issue with anything anyone posts, please use the "Report To Moderator" button, and provide a clear explanation of the problem that you have identified.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

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Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #56 on: January 17, 2014, 06:15:46 AM »
Thanks Anfauglir. 

Will do.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #57 on: January 17, 2014, 07:39:34 AM »
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OCG,  what do you think about using name calling in an adult conversation?  Keep in mind please that I'm not the one putting you in this position.  I mean you no harm or disrespect. 

I've never been a fan of such behavior but confess I was sorely tempted to join in with the recent writings of Jesuis. 


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Maybe I should tell you the whole story and let you be the judge.  I could really use a friend here.  It's a long one or I would say please go over my posts and tell me what you think.  As you can see society is still letting me down.  Have you ever been called an attention whore?  I was called a liar about having cancer and I've been called delusional, mentally ill, stupid, ignorant, an idiot...and worst of all I do not deserve respect.  Do you think that is anyway to treat a fellow human being?

You know what I don't need you to answer any of this.  I just want LPA to see what she has done; Opened up a can of worms. I wouldn't be involved in it but I don't have a choice.  I'm the one every body loves to hate.

I honestly don't see where LPA said anything disrespectful or opened up a can of worms. 

Sounds like you have been mistreated and I am saddened by that.  How come some one would accuse you of lying of being diagnosed with cancer?  I will do my best to show you respect. 

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

Respect is a sensitive subject.  You are respected here I've been told by some.  I am not and it hurts terribly.  Words around here aren't double edged swords they are nuclear bombs. 


Sometimes I think the subject of origins is tearing us apart.  We need an idea that puts all this hate and anger in the lions den.  Maybe we should all just keep our beliefs to ourselves.  That is not possible as long as organised religions remain, IMO. 

Bold-Hopefully it won't be too hard for you. ;) 
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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