Author Topic: Sunday School Lessons  (Read 2926 times)

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Offline OldChurchGuy

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Sunday School Lessons
« on: January 12, 2014, 09:54:48 PM »
I had a great discussion with some high schoolers in their Sunday School class this morning.  After discussing various ideas on how the Bible is interpreted I asked them what they would like to discuss next month when we meet again.  Being typical high school age people they fearlessly decided they wanted to discuss:

- Homosexuality and the Bible;

- Birth control, Abortion and the Bible. 

We are agreed the information will present the pro and con sides of the issues so we can have a better discussion and hopefully better appreciate an opposing view point even if we don't agree with it. 

I was wondering if you would recommend any books, magazine articles or websites for either of these topics?   The slant is not as important as the content.  By content, I mean well thought out ideas and, as applicable, documentation / footnotes. 

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle - Philo of Alexandria

Whether one believes in a religion or not, and whether one believes in rebirth or not, there isn't anyone who doesn't appreciate kindness and compassion - Dalai Lama

Offline Spit

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Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2014, 10:45:32 PM »
There is a verse that discusses smearing poo on faces. It's usually not discussed in Sunday School but WTF? Give it hell.

Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2014, 10:50:39 PM »
There is a verse that discusses smearing poo on faces. It's usually not discussed in Sunday School but WTF? Give it hell.

Does the verse tie in with either homosexuality or abortion / birth control?  Otherwise, I will save it for a future discussion.  Where can I find this verse? 

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle - Philo of Alexandria

Whether one believes in a religion or not, and whether one believes in rebirth or not, there isn't anyone who doesn't appreciate kindness and compassion - Dalai Lama

Offline ButterFlavoredPam

Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2014, 11:32:22 PM »
“In dark ages people are best guided by religion, as in a pitch-black night a blind man is the best guide; he knows the roads and paths better than a man who can see. When daylight comes, however, it is foolish to use blind, old men as guides.”
 Heinrich Heine

Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2014, 12:30:15 AM »
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle - Philo of Alexandria

Whether one believes in a religion or not, and whether one believes in rebirth or not, there isn't anyone who doesn't appreciate kindness and compassion - Dalai Lama

Offline Quesi

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Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2014, 09:27:16 AM »
Well I read your post last night, and thought I would certainly have something comprehensive to share.  But there is SO MUCH material out there on all of these topics, anecdotal material, scientific material, political material, superficial media stuff, angry, debate-style stuff, that I found it impossible to identify a single source on any topic that would be "perfect" as a starter.

And then this morning, while reading the news, I found something that is not what you asked for, but which might spark an interesting discussion with your teens.  This is not a definitive source.  There are no footnotes.  And I certainly don't embrace the values or world view of either the author or his mom. 

But there might be gay Christian teens in your group, or brothers or cousins or best friends of gay Christian teens.  And I thought that they might benefit from reading this piece.  http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lance-bass/the-first-thing-my-mom-di_b_4556471.html


Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2014, 09:50:22 AM »
Well I read your post last night, and thought I would certainly have something comprehensive to share.  But there is SO MUCH material out there on all of these topics, anecdotal material, scientific material, political material, superficial media stuff, angry, debate-style stuff, that I found it impossible to identify a single source on any topic that would be "perfect" as a starter.

And then this morning, while reading the news, I found something that is not what you asked for, but which might spark an interesting discussion with your teens.  This is not a definitive source.  There are no footnotes.  And I certainly don't embrace the values or world view of either the author or his mom. 

But there might be gay Christian teens in your group, or brothers or cousins or best friends of gay Christian teens.  And I thought that they might benefit from reading this piece.  http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lance-bass/the-first-thing-my-mom-di_b_4556471.html

Thanks for sharing this.  I agree it might be of help. 

The young man who requested we study about homosexuality and the Bible is gay, with younger siblings who seem heterosexual.  His parents are both professionals and show a great deal of love and acceptance of all their children.  The church is aware of the young man's sexual orientation (I believe he is either a junior or senior in high school) and, to the best of my knowledge, has no misgivings about him. 

I am a firm believer the church should be ready to explore any topic of interest the youth come up with.  They are old enough to ask those profound questions and the church should be that safe haven where the questions can be discussed and explored. 

I agree with your observations about the websites.  A quick Google search yielded all kinds of sites both pro and con for birth control, abortion and homosexualtiy.  Perhaps my emphasis to this crowd is for magazines or books, both pro and con, which explore these topics with a minimum of passion and an emphasis on reasoning.  Whether I or the youth agree or disagree with the reasoning, it will force us to consider WHY we agree or disagree. 

At the risk of sounding radical, the final conclusions the youth reach are not as important compared to them being able to explain the basis for their conclusions. 

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle - Philo of Alexandria

Whether one believes in a religion or not, and whether one believes in rebirth or not, there isn't anyone who doesn't appreciate kindness and compassion - Dalai Lama

Offline penfold

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Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2014, 10:28:52 AM »
The young man who requested we study about homosexuality and the Bible is gay, with younger siblings who seem heterosexual.  His parents are both professionals and show a great deal of love and acceptance of all their children.  The church is aware of the young man's sexual orientation (I believe he is either a junior or senior in high school) and, to the best of my knowledge, has no misgivings about him. 

I am a firm believer the church should be ready to explore any topic of interest the youth come up with.  They are old enough to ask those profound questions and the church should be that safe haven where the questions can be discussed and explored. 

Just to stick my oar in...

I do think you should take care here. Just bear in mind you are dealing with a young person who has faith in God and is gay. It is all very well to say that young people who have the courage to raise issues are entitled to responses but have you really considered the possible outcomes?

What if others in the group take a biblical standpoint and accuse the gay member of being 'inherently sinful' (or as the Catholics delightfully put it - 'morally disordered')? As a teacher how would you respond to students who, with the best intentions in the world, try and 'straighten out' the gay student? Have you considered that there might be others in the room silently struggling with their sexuality, possibly doing so in difficult family or social environments? What if a student, in the heat of discussion says something they end up regretting - I could not imagine a worse place to come out than a Sunday school!

I would be concerned that you might, unintentionally, cause a lot of damage. Being a teenager is hard, being a gay teenager that much more so; no matter how 'brave' students may appear this could prove a deeply upsetting experience for some. Speaking as a teacher I am not sure the classroom (or Sunday school room) is the appropriate place to discuss what might be a really difficult pastoral issue.

If you do go ahead with discussing it I would personally spend a lot of time thinking about how to mitigate the, frankly, horrific view of homosexuality in the bible. Look at other peculiar pronouncements in the laws (egs. Exodus 22:29 - child sacrifice; Deuteronomy 22:28-29 - how a rape victim must marry the perpetrator etc...) to place Leviticus 18:22 in context.

Similarly with Romans 1:26-7 I would also look at 1 Timothy 2:11-12 (subservience of women) to get a sense of context regarding Paul's social conservatism and how in a modern society we might legitimately disagree with some of the moral pronouncements of the bible.

It goes without saying that you should emphasize that Jesus said nothing on the issue.

I would also resist the temptation to be equivocal on this. At times it is the role of educators to be leaders. You should not tolerate homophobia no matter how much scripture can be said to back it up...

peace.
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away." - P.K.D.

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2014, 11:35:31 AM »
I would have though that HUMANAE VITAE would be worth a read. I know it's Catholic but it works through the arguments on these matters rather well.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2014, 11:58:13 AM »
I would have though that HUMANAE VITAE would be worth a read. I know it's Catholic but it works through the arguments on these matters rather well.

Thanks.  Found a PDF copy and will add it to the list of website information on birth control.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle - Philo of Alexandria

Whether one believes in a religion or not, and whether one believes in rebirth or not, there isn't anyone who doesn't appreciate kindness and compassion - Dalai Lama

Offline lotanddaughters

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Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2014, 05:07:46 PM »
Well I read your post last night, and thought I would certainly have something comprehensive to share.  But there is SO MUCH material out there on all of these topics, anecdotal material, scientific material, political material, superficial media stuff, angry, debate-style stuff, that I found it impossible to identify a single source on any topic that would be "perfect" as a starter.

And then this morning, while reading the news, I found something that is not what you asked for, but which might spark an interesting discussion with your teens.  This is not a definitive source.  There are no footnotes.  And I certainly don't embrace the values or world view of either the author or his mom. 

But there might be gay Christian teens in your group, or brothers or cousins or best friends of gay Christian teens.  And I thought that they might benefit from reading this piece.  http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lance-bass/the-first-thing-my-mom-di_b_4556471.html

I read the article. Thanks for sharing.

Basically, this is just another glimpse of how Christianity is fading. Don't get me wrong. It's always good and heartwarming to see a parent's unconditional love for their child triumph over the bullshit ramblings of an ancient barbarian.



But this is the world we are living in now-- The Age of Information that is killing Christianity.



On Christianity's death bed, these "breakthrough" speeches will probably go something like this:

" . . . and I prayed to God to give me the strength to accept that He was nothing but a myth all along."
Enough with your bullshit.
. . . Mr. Friday . . . that post really is golden.

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2014, 05:14:45 PM »
This is an important blog post to read. Single Dad Laughing. Arguably it is one of the most reflective pieces I have read on the subject. Please consider using it.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2014, 05:22:22 PM »
This is an important blog post to read. Single Dad Laughing. Arguably it is one of the most reflective pieces I have read on the subject. Please consider using it.

Excellent!  Thank you very much.  The link is in my folder. 

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle - Philo of Alexandria

Whether one believes in a religion or not, and whether one believes in rebirth or not, there isn't anyone who doesn't appreciate kindness and compassion - Dalai Lama

Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2014, 08:22:12 PM »
There is a group on Facebook called Unfundamentalist Christians which is basically open to all liberals who want to follow Jesus.  They cherry pick the bible and have created a very kind SPAG god who accepts everyone who wants to be a Christian. 
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2014, 09:53:58 PM »
There is a group on Facebook called Unfundamentalist Christians which is basically open to all liberals who want to follow Jesus.  They cherry pick the bible and have created a very kind SPAG god who accepts everyone who wants to be a Christian.

Thanks.  I might check into their website. 

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle - Philo of Alexandria

Whether one believes in a religion or not, and whether one believes in rebirth or not, there isn't anyone who doesn't appreciate kindness and compassion - Dalai Lama

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Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2014, 11:00:33 PM »
This as a great opportunity to teach the kids they can lick both sides of the same ice cream cone using scripture.

Remind them that the loving, merciful OT god not only finds men laying with men abhorrent, but they must be killed (Lev 20:13).  Or pick the NT god who preached Love your neighbor as yourself (Mat 22:29) and not to judge others, lest they be judged (Mat 7:1).  1 & 2 Samuel has the love story of Jonathan and David, and the book of Ruth has the love story of Ruth and Naomi.  So judgmental and murderous (OT god), or loving and accepting (NT god)... take your pick.

As far as I know, nowhere in the Bible is abortion branded a sin.  The commandment against killing might come close, but Moses smashed that tablet and proceeded to kill 3,000 men, women, and children of his wandering tribe of gods chosen; that's probably why the no-killing commandment wasn't on the replacement tablets.  On the other hand, there are almost too many passages to mention about OT god sanctioning the slaughter of pregnant women (Gen 38:24, Numbers 31:17-18, Hosea 9:16 & 13:16, etc.). Ripping fetuses from women's wombs should make for some lively conversation with the kids. And don't forget Exodus 21:22 where the penalty is spelled out for a man who causes a woman to miscarry.

Oh, and remind the kids that scripture is to stand on its own, without inclusion of individual opinion or interpretation (2 Peter 1:20), so none of that "Maybe god meant..." business.

Yes, a great teaching opportunity indeed.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2014, 11:04:48 PM by Backspace »
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2014, 12:44:33 AM »
Well I read your post last night, and thought I would certainly have something comprehensive to share.  But there is SO MUCH material out there on all of these topics, anecdotal material, scientific material, political material, superficial media stuff, angry, debate-style stuff, that I found it impossible to identify a single source on any topic that would be "perfect" as a starter.

And then this morning, while reading the news, I found something that is not what you asked for, but which might spark an interesting discussion with your teens.  This is not a definitive source.  There are no footnotes.  And I certainly don't embrace the values or world view of either the author or his mom. 

But there might be gay Christian teens in your group, or brothers or cousins or best friends of gay Christian teens.  And I thought that they might benefit from reading this piece.  http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lance-bass/the-first-thing-my-mom-di_b_4556471.html

Thanks for sharing this.  I agree it might be of help. 

The young man who requested we study about homosexuality and the Bible is gay, with younger siblings who seem heterosexual.  His parents are both professionals and show a great deal of love and acceptance of all their children.  The church is aware of the young man's sexual orientation (I believe he is either a junior or senior in high school) and, to the best of my knowledge, has no misgivings about him. 

I am a firm believer the church should be ready to explore any topic of interest the youth come up with.  They are old enough to ask those profound questions and the church should be that safe haven where the questions can be discussed and explored. 

I agree with your observations about the websites.  A quick Google search yielded all kinds of sites both pro and con for birth control, abortion and homosexualtiy.  Perhaps my emphasis to this crowd is for magazines or books, both pro and con, which explore these topics with a minimum of passion and an emphasis on reasoning.  Whether I or the youth agree or disagree with the reasoning, it will force us to consider WHY we agree or disagree. 

At the risk of sounding radical, the final conclusions the youth reach are not as important compared to them being able to explain the basis for their conclusions. 

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy
Being that this child is openly gay and level headed,can you justify eternal punishment,first for the people who accept him(including you?)and for him?

 The fact the church has become more tolerant,does not mean God has
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2014, 06:10:58 AM »
This as a great opportunity to teach the kids they can lick both sides of the same ice cream cone using scripture.

Remind them that the loving, merciful OT god not only finds men laying with men abhorrent, but they must be killed (Lev 20:13).  Or pick the NT god who preached Love your neighbor as yourself (Mat 22:29) and not to judge others, lest they be judged (Mat 7:1).  1 & 2 Samuel has the love story of Jonathan and David, and the book of Ruth has the love story of Ruth and Naomi.  So judgmental and murderous (OT god), or loving and accepting (NT god)... take your pick.

As far as I know, nowhere in the Bible is abortion branded a sin.  The commandment against killing might come close, but Moses smashed that tablet and proceeded to kill 3,000 men, women, and children of his wandering tribe of gods chosen; that's probably why the no-killing commandment wasn't on the replacement tablets.  On the other hand, there are almost too many passages to mention about OT god sanctioning the slaughter of pregnant women (Gen 38:24, Numbers 31:17-18, Hosea 9:16 & 13:16, etc.). Ripping fetuses from women's wombs should make for some lively conversation with the kids. And don't forget Exodus 21:22 where the penalty is spelled out for a man who causes a woman to miscarry.

Oh, and remind the kids that scripture is to stand on its own, without inclusion of individual opinion or interpretation (2 Peter 1:20), so none of that "Maybe god meant..." business.

Yes, a great teaching opportunity indeed.

Thanks very much.  I agree this is a great opportunity.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle - Philo of Alexandria

Whether one believes in a religion or not, and whether one believes in rebirth or not, there isn't anyone who doesn't appreciate kindness and compassion - Dalai Lama

Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2014, 06:13:22 AM »
Quote
  The fact the church has become more tolerant,does not mean God has

You make a good point.  Since I am no longer a literalist when it comes to interpreting the Bible, I will take the risk.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle - Philo of Alexandria

Whether one believes in a religion or not, and whether one believes in rebirth or not, there isn't anyone who doesn't appreciate kindness and compassion - Dalai Lama

Offline junebug72

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Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2014, 10:44:51 AM »
OCG,

Trust me I know a little something about this.  The only way to console this child is to totally deny the authenticity of the bible.  You can not misinterpret; Throw stones at gays they are an abomination.  Moses was full of crap.  God doesn't need an imperfect book for you to know God.  You just simply can not follow Moses and Jesus they are exact opposites.ex Moses says eye for an eye, Jesus says turn the other cheek; Moses says throw stones, Jesus says let the first one w/o sin throw a stone; Moses says to judge, Jesus says not to; Jesus teaches of God's unconditional love, Moses has strings attached.  Jesus says the only unforgivable sin is to blaspheme the Holy Ghost.  Who does that? 

Jesus does speak of homosexuals but nothing condemning them to hell.  He says that will be a sign of the second coming when a man lies with another man in the fields and a woman grinds with another woman in the field.  Let me go look it up.  I believe there is a part where he says eagles pluck out their eyes, probably a metaphor for religious folks.  He says where the bodies are there the eagles will be?

Luke 17:20-37

Very vague if you ask me.  I interpret it to mean that when gays are accepted only then will Jesus's second coming take place.  I'm not exactly sure what he means by leaving one behind or the part about the eagles.  If my partner can't go with me I will stay behind.  Is that like giving up my life for another?

I would really appreciate your take on these verses.  Thanks.

This is exactly how I got off the road of religion and on the road to spirituality.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine.html#XXwlhVIMq06zWg2d.99

Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2014, 06:09:08 PM »
OCG,

Trust me I know a little something about this.  The only way to console this child is to totally deny the authenticity of the bible.  You can not misinterpret; Throw stones at gays they are an abomination.  Moses was full of crap.  God doesn't need an imperfect book for you to know God.  You just simply can not follow Moses and Jesus they are exact opposites.ex Moses says eye for an eye, Jesus says turn the other cheek; Moses says throw stones, Jesus says let the first one w/o sin throw a stone; Moses says to judge, Jesus says not to; Jesus teaches of God's unconditional love, Moses has strings attached.  Jesus says the only unforgivable sin is to blaspheme the Holy Ghost.  Who does that? 

Jesus does speak of homosexuals but nothing condemning them to hell.  He says that will be a sign of the second coming when a man lies with another man in the fields and a woman grinds with another woman in the field.  Let me go look it up.  I believe there is a part where he says eagles pluck out their eyes, probably a metaphor for religious folks.  He says where the bodies are there the eagles will be?

Luke 17:20-37

Very vague if you ask me.  I interpret it to mean that when gays are accepted only then will Jesus's second coming take place.  I'm not exactly sure what he means by leaving one behind or the part about the eagles.  If my partner can't go with me I will stay behind.  Is that like giving up my life for another?

I would really appreciate your take on these verses.  Thanks.

This is exactly how I got off the road of religion and on the road to spirituality.

If you mean the authenticity of the Bible as the divinely inspired inerrant word of God to be interpreted literally unless there are similes in the wording, then, yes, I deny the authenticity of the Bible using the definition I just wrote.  If that definition is not what you mean by authenticity, would you mind giving me your definition of authenticity, please?

What version of the Luke passage are you reading from?  Here is the NIV translation and it does not seem to match up with what you wrote regarding two men in the field? 

11 Now on his way to Jerusalem, Jesus traveled along the border between Samaria and Galilee.

12 As he was going into a village, ten men who had leprosy (b) met him. They stood at a distance

13 and called out in a loud voice, “Jesus, Master, have pity on us!”

14 When he saw them, he said, “Go, show yourselves to the priests.” And as they went, they were cleansed.

15 One of them, when he saw he was healed, came back, praising God in a loud voice. 16 He threw himself at Jesus’ feet and thanked him—and he was a Samaritan.

17 Jesus asked, “Were not all ten cleansed? Where are the other nine?

18 Has no one returned to give praise to God except this foreigner?”

19 Then he said to him, “Rise and go; your faith has made you well.”

The Coming of the Kingdom of God


20 Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed,

21 nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst.”[c]

22 Then he said to his disciples, “The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it.

23 People will tell you, ‘There he is!’ or ‘Here he is!’ Do not go running off after them.

24 For the Son of Man in his day[d] will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other.

25 But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.

26 “Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man.

27 People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.

28 “It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building.

29 But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.

30 “It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed.

31 On that day no one who is on the housetop, with possessions inside, should go down to get them. Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything.

32 Remember Lot’s wife!

33 Whoever tries to keep their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life will preserve it.

34 I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left.

35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.”

[36] [e]

37 “Where, Lord?” they asked.  He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.”


Footnotes:
a.Luke 17:3 The Greek word for brother or sister (adelphos) refers here to a fellow disciple, whether man or woman.
b.Luke 17:12 The Greek word traditionally translated leprosy was used for various diseases affecting the skin.
c.Luke 17:21 Or is within you
d.Luke 17:24 Some manuscripts do not have in his day.
e.Luke 17:36 Some manuscripts include here words similar to Matt. 24:40.


Source: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2017

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy
« Last Edit: January 14, 2014, 06:14:34 PM by OldChurchGuy »
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle - Philo of Alexandria

Whether one believes in a religion or not, and whether one believes in rebirth or not, there isn't anyone who doesn't appreciate kindness and compassion - Dalai Lama

Offline lotanddaughters

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Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2014, 09:45:50 PM »
High schoolers and Sunday school. These poor teens are to be pitied. If these kids are around 15-18 years old, they should have had plenty of time to come across great arguments against Christianity like the ones we find here on this forum and website. The video "10 Questions That Every Intelligent Christian Must Answer" says that it was uploaded 7 years ago. Videos like this have been around on YouTube at least from the time that these kids were about 8-11 years old. God, I wish so badly that I was given the opportunity that these kids have. Back when I was a kid, being an ignorant teen in a Sunday school wasn't anything peculiar.

To be honest, I don't even remember a single sermon preached against homosexuality in church. I guess if you want to please the entire congregation with a "feel good" sermon, it's better not to tread where people might disagree.

My sons are only 4 years old and 23 months old. It'll be interesting to see how religious their classmates are when they get to high school. I do get Jehovah's Witnesses coming to my door once in a blue moon, so who knows?[1]






My sons are gonna know this-- long before they're 15:



Homosexuality:

Sometimes, a child is born homosexual. Nevertheless, the human race as a whole continues to exist. I never heard of a parent wishing that their child was born homosexual, me included. I also have never heard of a parent wishing that their child was born handicapped. But, you always see good parents accepting their children for who they are.

Sometimes, heterosexual people engage in homosexual activities. Some people are more grossed out by unnatural activities than others. Me, that stuff grosses me out. However, I would definitely suck a d**k[2] to pay off my house, for instance. There's nothing wrong with consensual sex activities between adults.

The Torah, the Bible, and the Quran clearly speak against homosexuality, but we're talking about very old texts written by people who didn't know squat.



Birth control:

You are overwhelmingly likely to want to have sex. Life is extremely short, so please enjoy your life to its fullest extent. If you don't want children, be sure to use birth control. A girl saying she's on birth control doesn't guarantee that she's on birth control. One thing that you can be sure of, is that the lunatic who told you Jesus Christ spoke to him was 100% incorrect, but I digress. Even if you're 100% certain that the girl is taking birth control, it doesn't make you immune to contagious diseases.



So . . . let's recap. Homosexuality is totally acceptable. It has to be, since homosexuals have no choice. Any statement that says otherwise can be easily discarded as nonsense.

I repeat.

Nonsense.

Birth control is totally acceptable. Life is too short for anyone who says otherwise to be taken seriously. Let those idiots deny themselves satisfaction for stupid reasons. You know better than that.



Abortion:

This is definitely a tougher issue than the previous two, since the other two are no-brainers. After pondering this issue, I have come to the conclusion that it is better for a woman to have a choice in the matter.

My sons, the issue of abortion is an important lesson, because it isn't just a lesson about abortion. It's a lesson that illustrates, "The more gray the area, the harder the choice to make". Life is full of gray areas. That's why when you come to no-brainers like homosexuality and birth control, be glad your daddy wasn't some fool who led you astray by treating them like difficult issues.
 1. I actually engaged in conversation with them the last two times. I try to make them question their beliefs. I actually can't wait until the next time. It's been awhile, though. They might have put my house on the "Forbidden List".
 2. System wouldn't let me spell out "d**k".

Offline junebug72

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Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2014, 08:36:34 AM »
OCG,

Are you familiar with the original Bible.  I would consider that one the most authentic versions.  How many versions are there.  Mine is an antique 1982 Scofield and it reads much different than yours.

Luke 17:22-37

22 And he said unto the disciples,  The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.

23 And they shall say to you, See hear; or see there.  Go not after them but follow them.

24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the  one part under heaven, so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected by this generation.

26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

27 They did eat, they drank, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

28 Also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built;

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom, it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be when the Son of man is revealed.

31 In that day, let him that shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, not come down to take it away;  and let him also that is in the filed, not return.

32 Remember Lot's wife.

33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, the other left.

36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

37 And they answered, and said unto him, Where, Lord?  And he said unto them, Wherever the body is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

I made sure to copy this word for word.  Why do you go to church if you don't believe the Bible is God's inerrant word?

I'm sorry for jumping into your thread like this.  I'm junebug, OldChurchGuy.  Nice to meet you. 

I am a lesbian raised fundamental baptist.  Religion caused some dark times for me as a young woman.  I welcome you to use me as your guinea pig if that will help. ;) I wouldn't wish this stuff on anybody.

Take care...


 
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2014, 09:17:54 AM »
OCG,

Are you familiar with the original Bible.  I would consider that one the most authentic versions.  How many versions are there.  Mine is an antique 1982 Scofield and it reads much different than yours.

Luke 17:22-37

22 And he said unto the disciples,  The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.

23 And they shall say to you, See hear; or see there.  Go not after them but follow them.

24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the  one part under heaven, so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected by this generation.

26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

27 They did eat, they drank, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

28 Also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built;

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom, it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be when the Son of man is revealed.

31 In that day, let him that shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, not come down to take it away;  and let him also that is in the filed, not return.

32 Remember Lot's wife.

33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, the other left.

36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

37 And they answered, and said unto him, Where, Lord?  And he said unto them, Wherever the body is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

I made sure to copy this word for word.  Why do you go to church if you don't believe the Bible is God's inerrant word?

I'm sorry for jumping into your thread like this.  I'm junebug, OldChurchGuy.  Nice to meet you. 

I am a lesbian raised fundamental baptist.  Religion caused some dark times for me as a young woman.  I welcome you to use me as your guinea pig if that will help. ;) I wouldn't wish this stuff on anybody.

Take care...

I'm not sure we will ever find the original Bible.  The earliest known Bibles are about 300 years after the time of Jesus (the Codex Vaticanus and the Codex Sinaiticus, as I recall). 

Regarding Bible translations, here is a Wikipedia link which may answer your question:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_Bible_translations

Here is a Wikipedia link regarding the Scofield Bible:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scofield_Reference_Bible

Frankly, I am not a big fan of the King James Translation (which is what the Scofield Bible is based on) because there have been so many advances understanding Greek and Hebrew in the centuries since the King James was translated.  But that is me. 

I have a Strong's Exhaustive Concordance and I will check into it for this King James version of Luke.  Research may take some time but I will get back with you. 

Why do I attend church if I do not believe the Bible is God's inerrant word?  Succinctly,  my first Sunday School class as an instructor was with High Schoolers back over 30 years ago.  They wanted to study Revelation and so I agreed.  The church had a great library with all kinds of commentaries and Bible dictionaries.  Going through about 8 of these I quickly discovered there were a variety of interpretations and all of them made sense.  I was at a crossroads as I expected these sources to be unified and found they weren't.  So, I saw my situation of either giving up on theism since there was no agreement or engage in a life long journey of discovery and learning.  I opted for the journey and have not regretted it.  As a result, I now see the Bible as a collection of writings written by many different people over a period of centuries all trying to describe what it is like to experience God.  For me, God exists and the Bible is something like a Guidebook.  I can't prove any of this but I don't recall a verse which says "Thou shalt take the Bible literally" (or words to that effect). 

And thank you for volunteering to help me on this venture.  I appreciate it and will probably run a rough draft of the lesson by you for comment.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle - Philo of Alexandria

Whether one believes in a religion or not, and whether one believes in rebirth or not, there isn't anyone who doesn't appreciate kindness and compassion - Dalai Lama

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2014, 09:37:16 AM »
just as a quick thought - there is no definitive translation of the bible and the Greek NT gets updated sometimes too. The best way to study a passage if you don't have Greek is to get 2 or 3 different translations open on the table together and compare them. That way, if you are lucky, you will get a better idea of what the text is saying. Certainly don't stick to one translation.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline screwtape

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Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #25 on: January 15, 2014, 10:11:59 AM »
... the original Bible.

I have no idea how that would even be defined.  Every book in the bible predated the bible itself.  And of all those books, we have the "original" for none of them.  They have all been copied, translated and revised since their inception to fit political agendas and new theological ideas.  I think "original bible" is kind of a meaningless term because of that.   
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Offline wheels5894

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Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #26 on: January 15, 2014, 10:35:29 AM »
... the original Bible.

I have no idea how that would even be defined.  Every book in the bible pre-dated the bible itself.  And of all those books, we have the "original" for none of them.  They have all been copied, translated and revised since their inception to fit political agendas and new theological ideas.  I think "original bible" is kind of a meaningless term because of that.

True, though we can go back further than one might imagine with the OT thanks to finds in the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Septuagint (LXX). The latter dates to about 200 BCE and consists of a translation of the OT into Greek for the diaspora. However it is markedly different from the Hebrew bible - the differences are mainly what the Protestant bibles call the Apocrypha. Jerome, whose translation into Latin is the Vulgate, decided to include the longer text from the LXX. Protestants, no favouring Rome, decided to ditch these longer parts and created the Apocrypha. What is interesting is that the Dead Sea Scrolls has copies, in Hebrew, of both  versions so we can see the way the text has been redacted.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline junebug72

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Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #27 on: January 15, 2014, 01:18:59 PM »
Screwtape,

My point exactly.  You hit the nail on the head.  It never ceases to amaze me the knowledge you all have of the bible.  That includes you too Wheels. 


OCG,


To me this is your biggest challenge.  Convince me why I should trust modern translations of the bible compared to older translations.  This dilutes the message, IMO.  Also the political gain implications are obvious.  Convince me why I need religion at all to find my path to God.

1 thing right off the bat, God told either Moses or Abraham that he would not destroy the world again with water.  Now Jesus here is saying not only will we suffer the horrors of a world wide flood but be burned to death while doing so.  This doesn't even sound like the same man that preached the sermon on the mount.  Tell us to love one another as I have loved you is now like saying destroy one another, no? 

If any of this is true I hope we never see Jesus again.  Do you believe in the second coming of Christ?  Why or why not. 

It does matter to the gay person.  Nobody wants to be left behind.  ;)



Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine.html#XXwlhVIMq06zWg2d.99

Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Sunday School Lessons
« Reply #28 on: January 15, 2014, 01:34:50 PM »
Convince me why I need religion at all to find my path to God.

You don't.  Old Church Guy finds completeness in his religion.  One should not affect the other.
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