Author Topic: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?  (Read 6450 times)

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Offline Nam

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #174 on: February 05, 2014, 02:05:33 PM »
I wonder if skeptic is against a man marrying a, oh say, 12 year old girl? In some religions, like Christianity/Judaism the age of 9-13 (some hit puberty earlier and later than others) is okay to not only marry so young (some Muslims still do it today, sometimes younger) but to have intercourse with the young "women". But it's okay because the Bible says it is.

skeptic talks about people just marrying anything or anyone like marriage is only sacred to idiots like him who feel the Bible created it, or something. Well, the Bible says that once a girl's breasts start growing, and she has pubic hair she not only a woman but can marry and have sex; 9-13 years old (as rfrc'd). And, it's not like it's a male their own age, or anything. It always seems to be old men marrying really young girls.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline jaimehlers

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #175 on: February 05, 2014, 02:12:15 PM »
I am glad you brought that up. Suppose you saw a 75 year old woman drop a lottery ticket and drive off. You pick up the ticket and win millions. Would you return the ticket or keep the money for yourself? Perhaps you may rationalize and think, "No 75 year old needs millions of dollars. They are on their way out anyway."

But without a God to punish you for your actions, is there harm in keeping the money for yourself? If there's no repercussions, would you do it?
Would your decision change if it was a 30 year old who dropped the ticket?
Unless the old woman had written her name and address on the ticket, there would be no realistic way to return the ticket to her.  Even leaving that aside, most people would rationalize away keeping the lottery ticket, including God not punishing them because "he made her drop the ticket for you".  So your example fails of its purpose.  Again.

Quote from: skeptic54768
The thing I keep saying is that if you keep doing bad stuff and nothing happens, then what's the point? There is no point. If God isn't real, then you can get off scot free. But if you are thinking about Hell, you just might think twice.
The only way you can get off scot-free is if you have no conscience or empathy.  Assuming you do have them, they will more than take up the slack.  My roommate can't even watch slapstick because he has so much empathy that it hurts him to watch it, even if he knows that they aren't being hurt.  More to the point, if a person doesn't have a conscience or empathy, what makes you think they'd be moved by threats of punishment?

Point being, a good person doesn't need to be threatened by hell and an evil person won't care.

Offline Boots

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #176 on: February 05, 2014, 03:04:51 PM »
It always seems to be old men marrying really young girls.

-Nam

this brought Dr. Strangelove to mind
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #177 on: February 05, 2014, 03:45:11 PM »
Sinners also serve a purpose in the world. Everyone is a sinner anyway but that's beside the point. Sinners can save people's lives too. Plus, without the sinners the term "good" would have no meaning. If everyone was "good" then it's meaningless. if a word can mean anything, then it means nothing. This is why we are against gay marriage because if marriage can mean anything, then it means nothing. If gays can marry, then why not brothers and sisters? Why not moms and sons? fathers and daughters? people and chairs? people and dogs? people and horses? people and toasters?
Slippery slope fallacy.  First off, redefining marriage to include gay people marrying is not the same as allowing it to mean anything.  Second, there's no reason to assume that allowing gay people to marry will inevitably result in incest 'marriages', bestiality 'marriages', and inanima 'marriages', or anything else you can manage to think of. 

Quote from: skeptic54768
You see what a mess it becomes when we let marriage mean anything? It means nothing. Pretty soon people who engage in incest will say they are being oppressed. Then people into bestiality will say they are being oppressed.
Unless you can show that these things will inevitably follow, this argument is pretty much as meaningless as you're trying to say marriage would be.

Quote from: skeptic54768
Marriage is between a man and a woman. period.
Your opinion has been noted.

Quote from: skeptic54768
End of discussion. Not this willy-nilly anything goes marry whatever/whoever you want.
Declaring a discussion ended when it clearly isn't just makes you look foolish and ineffectual.  You are more than welcome to withdraw from it, though.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #178 on: February 05, 2014, 04:29:33 PM »

Example: a wallet is found on the ground, with $20 in it.  In the first example, it is found by a very rich man, brought up in a loving home, taught to be charitable.  In the second example, it is found by a homeless person who has not eaten for three days, who comes from a broken and abusive home.  I doubt you would make any claim that those two people have exactly the same ability to make the "right" decision.

Except, against all common sense, studies have been shown the rich person is MORE likely to keep it. There are theories as to why, which in light of recent events, sound an awful lot like 'affluenza.'

I would suppose that the poor person might have more empathy, being broke & hungry himself, and the $20 would look like a lot of money to him; not something he could easily deprive another potentially hard-up person of.

The rich man, I don't know. Maybe it would appear to be such a trifle that he could not be bothered to try to find the owner. Maybe acquisitiveness has become so addictive that even an extra $20 gives a little bit of a rush. I would still imagine that the majority of the well-to-do would still at least try to return it.

I am glad you brought that up. Suppose you saw a 75 year old woman drop a lottery ticket and drive off. You pick up the ticket and win millions. Would you return the ticket or keep the money for yourself? Perhaps you may rationalize and think, "No 75 year old needs millions of dollars. They are on their way out anyway."

But without a God to punish you for your actions, is there harm in keeping the money for yourself? If there's no repercussions, would you do it?
Would your decision change if it was a 30 year old who dropped the ticket?

The thing I keep saying is that if you keep doing bad stuff and nothing happens, then what's the point? There is no point. If God isn't real, then you can get off scot free. But if you are thinking about Hell, you just might think twice.

People have done those kinds of experiments, and what are the results? Where are people most likely to return lost wallets, etc? Not surprisingly to me as an atheist, the largely secular Helsinki, Finland (a country where only 8% of the people report being "highly religious") had the most honest population according to the unscientific but amusing Reader's Digest "dropped wallet" test. The second place? Non-Christian and very poor Mumbai, India. That sinful and secular liberal hellhole New York tied for third. Home of legalized drugs and prostitution Amsterdam tied for #4.
 
http://www.businessinsider.com/helsinki-is-the-worlds-most-honest-city-2013-9

What can we take from this? Not much, as the thing is just for fun and not scientific. But it does raise the question as to why places like Spain, Portugal, Brazil and Switzerland, where higher percentages of the people profess to be Christian end up the least honest.  :-\



Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #179 on: February 06, 2014, 08:22:26 AM »
Secondly, why?  If your god knows everything, KNEW everything from the very dawn of creation, then what point is there in actually playing it all through?  A TRULY loving god would simply envisage it all in his mind, then create into heaven ONLY those souls who "made it" in his imagination.  Sinners would never exist - never NEED to exist. 

Sinners also serve a purpose in the world. Everyone is a sinner anyway but that's beside the point. Sinners can save people's lives too.

And you miss my point.  For a god that was truly a GOD, for a god that was truly LOVING, this entire world of creation serves no purpose, if he knew before the start every little thing that would happen.  In his mind, your god could simply "imagine" sinners, and their effect on others.

For a truly godly, truly good being, the entire creation of this world is unnecessary.

Plus, without the sinners the term "good" would have no meaning. If everyone was "good" then it's meaningless.

Interesting. 

So before he created anything, your god had no meaning.  Before anyone sinned, your god had no meaning. 

The Fall of man was necessary for good to have meaning.  Are you saying that your god HAD to set things up for mankind to inevitably fall, for there to be any meaning to existence?  So either your god had the choice, to bring evil into existence (making him evil by action).....or evil existed in the universe BEFORE your god (in which case he is not the ultimate creator)......or your god contained evil in the beginning.

And similarly heaven has no meaning, since everyone there is good. 

Do you want to re-think your statement, perhaps?  Because as it stands, it can only reflect badly on your god.

- - - - -

(I will ignore your red herring about marriage, BTW.  Nice try at deflecting away from questions you find too difficult towards those that you have rote answers to, but I'm not going to indulge you.)


Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #180 on: February 06, 2014, 08:26:01 AM »
The thing I keep saying is that if you keep doing bad stuff and nothing happens, then what's the point? There is no point.

You mean.....exactly the way things happen in the real world? 

If God isn't real, then you can get off scot free. But if you are thinking about Hell, you just might think twice.

True, to that last.  But the thought of hell in no way means that any god exists.  You may as well say the thought of the bears that lurk in doorways stops you treading on the cracks in the pavement.

But here's a nother thing for you to chew on.  Atheists like myself do not fear hell - we know it does not exist.  And yet we still do good.  Rather blows your whole theory, does it not?

Or are you saying that for those who believe in your god, it is ONLY the thought of hell that makes them do good?  Doesn't say a lot for your faith, does it?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline screwtape

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #181 on: February 06, 2014, 09:33:55 AM »
Plus, without the sinners the term "good" would have no meaning. If everyone was "good" then it's meaningless.

Interesting.  I've heard it argued that evil is simply the absence of good and that hell is nothing more than being out of the presence of god.  But you are saying the opposite. 

You are saying good is defined by evil.  Therefore, evil is necessary and preceeds good.  That also sort of makes evil - or at least its existence - good. Because by its existence, good is possible, which is good.  And without out evil, there cannot be good, which is not good.  So evil is good.

When yhwh created light and said "it is good", what preceeded it that was evil? 
When yhwh created other stuff and said "it is good", what preceeded it that was evil?
The serpent in eden, while ostensibly evil, was ultimately good.  Because without the serpent and the ensuing "sin", there could have been no good.

It gets even better.  It means god cannot be considered god without some kind of preceeding, necessary evil. 
What evil preceeded yhwh?  Or was yhwh not good before the angels rebelled?



The rest of that post was so bottomlessly stupid it would be beneath me to even address it verbally.
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #182 on: February 06, 2014, 11:48:27 AM »
All that you guys said.

Where everything is good, goodness has no meaning, right? I wonder what the point of heaven is, then. And where everything is bad, badness has no meaning, right? So much for hell.

Hello, skeptic? Logic waiting for you on line one. ;)
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline stuffin

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #183 on: February 06, 2014, 09:20:08 PM »
Quote
Plus, without the sinners the term "good" would have no meaning. If everyone was "good" then it's meaningless.Skeptic help me out please.

Based on your statement above;

God created evil (sinners) in order to make good meaningful.

True or False?
When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.

Online skeptic54768

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #184 on: February 07, 2014, 12:07:07 PM »
Plus, without the sinners the term "good" would have no meaning. If everyone was "good" then it's meaningless.

Interesting.  I've heard it argued that evil is simply the absence of good and that hell is nothing more than being out of the presence of god.  But you are saying the opposite. 

You are saying good is defined by evil.  Therefore, evil is necessary and preceeds good.  That also sort of makes evil - or at least its existence - good. Because by its existence, good is possible, which is good.  And without out evil, there cannot be good, which is not good.  So evil is good.

When yhwh created light and said "it is good", what preceeded it that was evil? 
When yhwh created other stuff and said "it is good", what preceeded it that was evil?
The serpent in eden, while ostensibly evil, was ultimately good.  Because without the serpent and the ensuing "sin", there could have been no good.

It gets even better.  It means god cannot be considered god without some kind of preceeding, necessary evil. 
What evil preceeded yhwh?  Or was yhwh not good before the angels rebelled?



The rest of that post was so bottomlessly stupid it would be beneath me to even address it verbally.

Satan rebelled in Heaven before creation. Evil certainly existed. Besides, it's not something that God created. Evil is simply what happens when you disobey God. You may ask, "Why did God allow people to disobey Him?" The answer is because of free will. If God did not allow anyone to disobey, then we would all be like robots programmed to do whatever the Creator says. That's just silly. Would you be able to feel genuine love if you paid them 1 million dollars to be your wife?

Likewise, you can program your computer to say "I love you" every time the computer started up, but you would you really feel loved?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline jdawg70

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #185 on: February 07, 2014, 12:53:28 PM »
Satan rebelled in Heaven before creation. Evil certainly existed. Besides, it's not something that God created. Evil is simply what happens when you disobey God. You may ask, "Why did God allow people to disobey Him?" The answer is because of free will. If God did not allow anyone to disobey, then we would all be like robots programmed to do whatever the Creator says. That's just silly. Would you be able to feel genuine love if you paid them 1 million dollars to be your wife?

Likewise, you can program your computer to say "I love you" every time the computer started up, but you would you really feel loved?

Would you be able to feel genuine love if you paid them salvation from eternal torture to be your wife?
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #186 on: February 07, 2014, 01:02:34 PM »
Would you be able to feel genuine love if you paid them salvation from eternal torture to be your wife?
Alternately, "Would you be able to feel genuine love if you threatened someone with eternal torture if they didn't choose to be your wife?"

Offline G-Roll

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #187 on: February 07, 2014, 01:32:08 PM »
Quote
Satan rebelled in Heaven before creation.
Just curious as to how you know this. To my knowledge there is no official timeline for the fall of Lucifer or his rebellion. I would love to be enlightened.

Offline screwtape

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #188 on: February 07, 2014, 01:56:39 PM »
Skep,

that was a terrible post.  First and foremost, it addressed nothing I said.  That tells me you aren't reading my responses or thinking about them particularly deeply.  You are only using them as a springboard for you to launch into some other ridiculous tangent. That is rather inconsiderate.

Secondly, what you put together was a mess.  I considered digging into it line by line, but I decided to not waste the effort, since you won't bother to actually address any of it.  I will only add one thing.

you said this:
Evil is simply what happens when you disobey God.

and this:
Plus, without the sinners the term "good" would have no meaning. If everyone was "good" then it's meaningless.

How do you reconcile the apparent complete incoherence?

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Offline Aaron123

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #189 on: February 07, 2014, 02:17:43 PM »
Evil certainly existed. Besides, it's not something that God created. Evil is simply what happens when you disobey God.

Well now, you're in conflict with the bible.

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline Jag

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #190 on: February 07, 2014, 03:19:29 PM »
I'm reminded of a book by Steven Brust, "To Reign in Hell". It's one of his earliest published works (and it shows) but it sort of follows the premise it appears skep has taken here.

Except for a few key point. One, Lucifer is not the bad guy, and two, it's not a memoir/biography/autobiography, and the people who have read it know that.

Too bad the same can't be said of most of our theist posters. You would think the least they could do is actually read the damn book they're so determined to defend.
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Offline Dante

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #191 on: February 07, 2014, 03:24:09 PM »
The answer is because of free will. If God did not allow anyone to disobey, then we would all be like robots programmed to do whatever the Creator says. That's just silly.

Is there free will in heaven?
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline Nam

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #192 on: February 07, 2014, 03:28:06 PM »
They do read it, and then twist it to their viewpoint. Didn't you see Book of Eli? The antagonist wanted the Bible so badly because he knew he could use it for his own selfish reason to rule over others. Literal works have one interpretation, the Bible isn't literal based on the fact that too many interpretations can be formed from it.

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This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline SevenPatch

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #193 on: February 07, 2014, 03:59:48 PM »
Evil certainly existed. Besides, it's not something that God created. Evil is simply what happens when you disobey God.

Well now, you're in conflict with the bible.

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

This reminds me of the Stone Temple Pilots song Naked Sunday for some reason.
"Shut him up! We have a lot invested in this ride - SHUT HIM UP! Look at my furrows of worry! Look at my big bank account, and my family! This just HAS to be real!" - Bill Hicks

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #194 on: February 07, 2014, 04:38:38 PM »
The answer is because of free will. If God did not allow anyone to disobey, then we would all be like robots programmed to do whatever the Creator says. That's just silly.

Is there free will in heaven?

Yeah, but, well, ya see, in heaven, god has created an environment so wonderful that nobody will want to do anything bad. So nobody will. So there. And he could have made earth like that in the first place, and avoided all the sin and death and pain and sh!t. But then, although he knows everything anyway,  he would not know who really, really loves him and therefore deserves heaven, right?

Even though, Satan was in that wonderful perfect place. And still. Disobeyed.  In heaven......
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Online Add Homonym

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #195 on: February 08, 2014, 04:16:10 AM »
Satan rebelled in Heaven before creation. Evil certainly existed. Besides, it's not something that God created. Evil is simply what happens when you disobey God. You may ask, "Why did God allow people to disobey Him?" The answer is because of free will. If God did not allow anyone to disobey, then we would all be like robots programmed to do whatever the Creator says. That's just silly. Would you be able to feel genuine love if you paid them 1 million dollars to be your wife?

Likewise, you can program your computer to say "I love you" every time the computer started up, but you would you really feel loved?

What a load of bollox.

Quote
Besides, it's not something that God created.

LOL.

Quote
Evil is simply what happens when you disobey God.

That's potentially true; that a God could be sophisticated enough to think up a set of laws, that when followed accurately, could abolish evil, supposing that God could also define what evil was, (besides anything that he didn't like). However, the Biblical laws of God are not nearly good enough, when followed accurately, for the "wolf to dwell with the lamb". So, I suppose you could only mean that evil is created when you disobey the secret laws of God, and you are not in omniscience, yourself. God has secret laws that will allow us to genetically engineer lambs and wolves to metabolize nitrogen and create carbohydrates directly from the sun (but has not revealed them to us yet). For the time being, we can kill cattle, multiply until we obliterate the planet, pour shit into the ocean, etc. The Amish must be doing something wrong, too, because they have high levels of autism and Parkinson's disease; a sure sign that following God's laws doesn't fix up your gene pool.

Quote
You may ask, "Why did God allow people to disobey Him?"

You mean, "Why does God allow the evil that he created"? Stupid question. God loves his evil.

Well, obviously, it's part of the plan, which we don't know, and would make no sense to anyone. Also, it's part of the plan, not to reveal himself to ape-like creatures.

Quote
The answer is because of free will.

Why isn't the answer costly will, or free willy? Obviously, God allows people to disobey him, because we obviously are, and there must (be invented) a plausible, yet, unconvincing reason why God would let us do what we are doing, without showing himself. That could only be a circular explanation, that God lets us do what we are doing, because it is his will, rather than free will, costly will, or free willy.

Quote
If God did not allow anyone to disobey, then we would all be like robots programmed to do whatever the Creator says.

We are robots doing what the creator wants us to do, already. How do I know? Because only things that the creator wanted to happen would be happening. Owing to the fact that to have a religion, we need to assert that some group of people are "chosen"; then it follows, that the bunch of people are chosen, because they are not being robots, instead, doing exactly what God wants, because they are not robots in God's robotic plan.

Quote
Would you be able to feel genuine love if you paid them 1 million dollars to be your wife?

Probably; because I'm a decent chap, and women like me anyway.

Quote
Likewise, you can program your computer to say "I love you" every time the computer started up, but you would you really feel loved?

Would you feel genuine love from an ant, if it came to you of its free willy?
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Online skeptic54768

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #196 on: February 08, 2014, 12:56:42 PM »
Yeah, but, well, ya see, in heaven, god has created an environment so wonderful that nobody will want to do anything bad. So nobody will. So there. And he could have made earth like that in the first place, and avoided all the sin and death and pain and sh!t. But then, although he knows everything anyway,  he would not know who really, really loves him and therefore deserves heaven, right?

Even though, Satan was in that wonderful perfect place. And still. Disobeyed.  In heaven......


Yes, it shows that even when someone is given everything, they still want to be their own God and do things their own way.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #197 on: February 08, 2014, 01:13:41 PM »
Yeah, but, well, ya see, in heaven, god has created an environment so wonderful that nobody will want to do anything bad. So nobody will. So there. And he could have made earth like that in the first place, and avoided all the sin and death and pain and sh!t. But then, although he knows everything anyway,  he would not know who really, really loves him and therefore deserves heaven, right?

Even though, Satan was in that wonderful perfect place. And still. Disobeyed.  In heaven......


Yes, it shows that even when someone is given everything, they still want to be their own God and do things their own way.

So there will be free will to disobey god in heaven. Some people will screw up and there will be sin once more, starting the whole mess over again. Gotcha.

Move along, everyone. Nothing to see here.  :P
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline jynnan tonnix

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #198 on: February 08, 2014, 02:09:07 PM »


So there will be free will to disobey god in heaven. Some people will screw up and there will be sin once more, starting the whole mess over again. Gotcha.

Move along, everyone. Nothing to see here.  :P

It's amazing to me that people can look at logic as airtight as this and still somehow manage to seal off their minds from seeing the sense of it. How much denial can one maintain? I seriously don't understand how the Christian can look at an argument like this and not, on some level, say to himself, "wow, good point" .

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #199 on: February 08, 2014, 02:42:16 PM »
Yes, it shows that even when someone is given everything, they still want to be their own God and do things their own way.

Could you explain this whole 'salvation' thing again?
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #200 on: February 08, 2014, 04:23:53 PM »
Holding breath one more time.  :D

C'mon, people. If there was a religion that actually reflected the real world, it would be accepted by everyone without a problem. No need for complicated, contradictory apologetic arguments. No need to "just shut up and believe" or "just have faith" or "fake it till you make it", or "pray ceaselessly" until something, anything, happens so that you can interpret it as a sign from your god. No need to try to persuade people with long, illogical parables, or analogies that defy analysis. No need to rely on short, pithy, bumper sticker slogans that fall apart under the slightest scrutiny.[1]

The religion's explanations would be clear to anyone, even those whose "hearts are not open" and would explain the way the universe worked anywhere, anytime. If the religion said "do X something to get result Y something" you could always expect that X would give you Y, no matter what. If the religion said that saying certain magic words would cure disease, disease would be cured. All tests conducted using information provided by the religion would prove that religion's accuracy.

People who lived according to the rules provided by that religion would be obviously better off than those who did not follow the religion--by any and all measures. You would be able to clearly see the difference. They should be the people magically spared anytime a tornado or flood or hurricane hit. They should be happier, healthier, live longer, have better relationships with family and friends, no crime, no divorces, no car accidents, no money problems or whatever.  Life should work better for them.

But what do we see when we look at the world? Nothing like what should be if any one of the major religions were true. Not a thing shows any improvement overall between people who follow a religion and people who don't. Just a long list of excuses as to why nothing works the way the religion says it should. Access to clean water, enough food, good basic health care and education have far more to do with people's well-being than any religion. There is certainly no evidence that Christianity helps people more than basic non-religious public services.[2]

In fact, as we have pointed out numerous times to a resounding cricket noise, the places where more people claim to follow a religion, like the US south, inner cities and rural areas, Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Nigeria, Brazil, India tend to be much worse off than the places where more people are voluntarily secular or even atheist (US north, Sweden, Iceland, Denmark, Holland, Japan). More crime, sickness, family breakups, poverty, civil strife, general misery--even religious people are better off in the non-religious places!

You would think that these facts, clearly stated, would be enough to end all religious claims. But no, we non-religious people have to fight for every social or scientific advance against people who seem to want the world to be worse off. We have to argue for common sense,, for science education, for human rights, for social services, for people to stop relying on magic.  We are the people who have to shut up or lose family, friends, jobs-- in some parts of the world, even our lives.

And tomorrow, someone will see Zeus on a piece of meatloaf. Thousands will believe! Because when you have no facts on your side, magic is all that's left. &)
 1. God don't make junk. So, who made Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot and the Kardashians?
 2. We are seeing proof of that right now as China's middle class grows and people there are becoming better off-- with very little religious influence and virtually no Christianity.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2014, 04:35:23 PM by nogodsforme »
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline stuffin

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #201 on: February 08, 2014, 06:37:08 PM »
Holding breath one more time.  :D

C'mon, people. If there was a religion that actually reflected the real world, it would be accepted by everyone without a problem. No need for complicated, contradictory apologetic arguments. No need to "just shut up and believe" or "just have faith" or "fake it till you make it", or "pray ceaselessly" until something, anything, happens so that you can interpret it as a sign from your god. No need to try to persuade people with long, illogical parables, or analogies that defy analysis. No need to rely on short, pithy, bumper sticker slogans that fall apart under the slightest scrutiny.[1]

The religion's explanations would be clear to anyone, even those whose "hearts are not open" and would explain the way the universe worked anywhere, anytime. If the religion said "do X something to get result Y something" you could always expect that X would give you Y, no matter what. If the religion said that saying certain magic words would cure disease, disease would be cured. All tests conducted using information provided by the religion would prove that religion's accuracy.

People who lived according to the rules provided by that religion would be obviously better off than those who did not follow the religion--by any and all measures. You would be able to clearly see the difference. They should be the people magically spared anytime a tornado or flood or hurricane hit. They should be happier, healthier, live longer, have better relationships with family and friends, no crime, no divorces, no car accidents, no money problems or whatever.  Life should work better for them.

But what do we see when we look at the world? Nothing like what should be if any one of the major religions were true. Not a thing shows any improvement overall between people who follow a religion and people who don't. Just a long list of excuses as to why nothing works the way the religion says it should. Access to clean water, enough food, good basic health care and education have far more to do with people's well-being than any religion. There is certainly no evidence that Christianity helps people more than basic non-religious public services.[2]

In fact, as we have pointed out numerous times to a resounding cricket noise, the places where more people claim to follow a religion, like the US south, inner cities and rural areas, Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Nigeria, Brazil, India tend to be much worse off than the places where more people are voluntarily secular or even atheist (US north, Sweden, Iceland, Denmark, Holland, Japan). More crime, sickness, family breakups, poverty, civil strife, general misery--even religious people are better off in the non-religious places!

You would think that these facts, clearly stated, would be enough to end all religious claims. But no, we non-religious people have to fight for every social or scientific advance against people who seem to want the world to be worse off. We have to argue for common sense,, for science education, for human rights, for social services, for people to stop relying on magic.  We are the people who have to shut up or lose family, friends, jobs-- in some parts of the world, even our lives.

And tomorrow, someone will see Zeus on a piece of meatloaf. Thousands will believe! Because when you have no facts on your side, magic is all that's left. &)
 1. God don't make junk. So, who made Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot and the Kardashians?
 2. We are seeing proof of that right now as China's middle class grows and people there are becoming better off-- with very little religious influence and virtually no Christianity.

NGFM, certainly, if there were a Real God, He/She/It would allow for a way through or of out of life’s tragedies (parting of the Red Sea comes to mind). It would not be easy, but God, like any good parent, would help the child who found themselves in an insalubrious position.

As it stands now, anytime something miraculous happens, God did it. If the results are deleterious, that was what God intended. I do not understand how people cannot figure this out, especially as they mature. Probably more so, they don’t want to mature when it comes to God. Excuse me, I am very comfortable living in my Imaginary God Purview. These folks know God is random in his protection, yet they stand in line to be denied. STUNNING!

When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #202 on: February 08, 2014, 11:09:50 PM »
To quote Hot Fuzz.

Quote
I might not be a man of god, but i know right, and i know wrong, and i have the good grace to know which is which.
Rule 1: No pooftas. Rule 2: No maltreating the theists, IF, anyone is watching. Rule 3: No pooftas. Rule 4: I do not want to see anyone NOT drinking after light out. Rule 5: No pooftas. Rule 6: There is NO...rule 6.