Author Topic: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?  (Read 3805 times)

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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #87 on: January 24, 2014, 08:05:35 PM »
OK suppose you travel to a remote part of the world, and men in the tribe have to rape women to enter into adulthood. Would you stop them? (universal morality) or say "Go on, don't mind me?" (subjective morality)
I'll take option #3 or #4, actually - the ones you didn't even think of.

For example, what if I took the opportunity to try to teach them that the could take on a different manhood ritual?  What if I secretly taught the women of the tribe how to defend themselves from that?  Neither of those fall under the black and white morality you keep trying to insist must exist - that either we must act as if there's a totally universal morality, or we must act as if there's no morality at all.

Not to mention that your example actually contradicts the whole idea of "universal morality".  If universal morality actually existed, it would exist everywhere, no matter where you went.  There would be no room for subjective morality to come into play - moral laws would be "written onto our hearts", as I believe you have said more than once.
Worldviews:  Everyone has one, everyone believes them to be an accurate view of the world, and everyone ends up at least partially wrong.  However, some worldviews are stronger and well-supported, while others are so bizarre that they make no sense to anyone else.

Offline meo

Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #88 on: January 25, 2014, 12:21:45 PM »
OK suppose you travel to a remote part of the world, and men in the tribe have to rape women to enter into adulthood. Would you stop them? (universal morality) or say "Go on, don't mind me?" (subjective morality)

OK suppose you travel to a remote part of the world, and men in the tribe have to rape women to enter into adulthood(this tribe thinks is ok to rape, different from our culture, subjective morality). Would you stop them? (based on if you find rape is wrong or not, objective subjective morality) or say "Go on, don't mind me?" (subjective morality)
Supposed you believe in God, what would you do? (depends on if God says it's ok to rape the women. Would rape or kill if god tells me to. Objectively morality. And, this is skeptic54768)

Offline Bumpy Ride

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #89 on: January 25, 2014, 12:34:43 PM »
I think in human psychology its called empathy? that feeling for others?

Do you realize how many strawmen you have set up to get knocked down?

I never said that atheists lack morals. I said they are borrowing their morals from the Christian worldview, considering there is no logical reason to be moral as an atheist. So the atheists who are moral must be borrowing from Christianity.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #90 on: January 26, 2014, 09:04:12 PM »
OK suppose you travel to a remote part of the world, and men in the tribe have to rape women to enter into adulthood. Would you stop them? (universal morality) or say "Go on, don't mind me?" (subjective morality)

OK suppose you travel to a remote part of the world, and men in the tribe have to rape women to enter into adulthood(this tribe thinks is ok to rape, different from our culture, subjective morality). Would you stop them? (based on if you find rape is wrong or not, objective subjective morality) or say "Go on, don't mind me?" (subjective morality)
Supposed you believe in God, what would you do? (depends on if God says it's ok to rape the women. Would rape or kill if god tells me to. Objectively morality. And, this is skeptic54768)

Exactly my point. If god says it is okay, then it is moral. Regardless of the consequences. God-morality is not objective, because it is totally up to one person's opinion (god's). And it is clear that many people who claim that there is objective morality disagree with god's unchanging morality, since they do not:  avoid pork and shellfish; own slaves; trade their daughters to men for cash or animals; hit mouthy teens, gays and non-virgin brides with stones until they are dead; force raped women to marry the guy who assaulted them; remain absolutely immobile on the Sabbath; or routinely massacre all members of other religious groups, including children and babies. They don't burn witches, anymore, either.[1]

All of these practices were at some point approved of, or even required by god. It would have been immoral not to track down and stone the gay folks in town. But nowadays, people can claim to follow the bible and yet, do none of these things.  Either god changed his mind, (thus altering the objective morality and making it subjective) or humans have a better morality than god, which, again, means morality is subjective.

Or maybe god does not exist and humans have developed social systems that are more egalitarian, peaceful, compassionate and rational than our bible era ancestors. 
 1. At least, not sane people in most countries. Those who are attacking gays and killing children for being demon-possessed witches are just following god's unchanging morality, right? :P
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline median

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #91 on: January 27, 2014, 01:45:52 AM »

OK suppose you travel to a remote part of the world, and men in the tribe have to rape women to enter into adulthood. Would you stop them? (universal morality) or say "Go on, don't mind me?" (subjective morality)

We've already been over this. Did you not listen the numerous other times it was discussed? Morality is about minimizing unnecessary harm and about maximizing the well being of conscious creatures (in general). Rape diminishes well being. Therefore it is immoral. So it should be stopped. Again, if you think morality is about something else (and apparently you think it is about might makes right, but won't admit it) then please demonstrate how you think you know that.
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." Friedrich Nietzsche

Offline magicmiles

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #92 on: January 27, 2014, 02:50:56 AM »
^^ Presumably the men in this tribe will argue that the harm IS necessary- it's how their boys have always become men, is part of a culture thousands of years old. How do you argue that the harm is unnecessary? What makes you a more valid authority than them on this point?
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Offline median

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #93 on: January 27, 2014, 03:30:15 AM »
^^ Presumably the men in this tribe will argue that the harm IS necessary- it's how their boys have always become men, is part of a culture thousands of years old. How do you argue that the harm is unnecessary? What makes you a more valid authority than them on this point?

I never claimed I was some "authority". So now you're just putting words in my mouth. Not surprising. Why is it you think you must have some ultimate authority anyways? My definition of what morality is about has already been stated. Anyone has the right to disagree with that definition (and posit their own), and not all definitions are equal (as some are meaningless, non-useful, and/or irrational), such as the irrational "God's nature" one you quoted from Matt Slick weeks back. If this 'tribe' wants to disagree, fine. We have a disagreement and things go from there. We could take the girls away from them. We could reason together to determine what method actually does the least amount of harm while still accomplishing their goals, and any number of other options. None of that does anything to support some alleged independent "objective" morality (if that is where you are going).
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." Friedrich Nietzsche

Offline magicmiles

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #94 on: January 27, 2014, 03:44:06 AM »
It certainly appeared that you were promoting your definition of morality as more than just your opinion.

Now, as to your suggestion of reasoning with the tribesmen, it seems you would be open to the possibly that if after reasoning it through together the tribesmen still considered the rape justifiable, you would be ok with that?
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Offline median

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #95 on: January 27, 2014, 04:00:23 AM »
It certainly appeared that you were promoting your definition of morality as more than just your opinion.

Now, as to your suggestion of reasoning with the tribesmen, it seems you would be open to the possibly that if after reasoning it through together the tribesmen still considered the rape justifiable, you would be ok with that?

That is your fault for making yet another assumption about my position instead of actually asking. As usual, you were too caught up in your little douche-bag smite snippets (which goes against your cause and only serves to escalate my dislike and disgust of you and your faith - way to go for showing that love you claim to follow!).

Definitions of terms are arbitrary and agreed upon by people. If we cannot agree then problems arise and can be discussed, dealt with in some fashion, or moved passed. If the tribesman continued to disagree it wouldn't matter to me, but if he acted to continue harming someone I would work to stop it b/c of my definition of what morality is about.

You wouldn't have had to ask me these questions had you actually watched the video I had posted multiple times (and apparently you so conveniently ignored).



"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." Friedrich Nietzsche

Offline magicmiles

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #96 on: January 27, 2014, 04:59:42 AM »
So, essentially, if you come across a situation that is immoral by your definition, you will act in opposition to somebody who disagrees that the situation is immoral, even if you can accept that their viewpoint is also valid? Is that a reasonable summary of your position?
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #97 on: January 27, 2014, 06:19:44 AM »
So, essentially, if you come across a situation that is immoral by your definition, you will act in opposition to somebody who disagrees that the situation is immoral, even if you can accept that their viewpoint is also valid? Is that a reasonable summary of your position?

Not entirely, no.  As he says, "If the tribesman continued to disagree it wouldn't matter to me, but if he acted to continue harming someone I would work to stop it b/c of my definition of what morality is about. "

Median is not proposing he act in opposition to another's definition of morality, unless and until they first act on their morality.  Its a fine distinction, but worth making.

But to be honest, I'm amazed you are asking the question?  Surely if one holds to a system of morality, one acts upon it, regardless of whether the other person concerned disagrees with the morality, or just transgresses it?  You seem to be suggesting that an acceptance of relative moralities means we are not allowed to take actions based on our own morality, is that correct?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline junebug72

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #98 on: January 27, 2014, 06:52:13 AM »
There are amoral people in every sect.  There are moral people in every sect.  Being atheist does not make a person amoral.  Being Christian does not make a person moral.

Having good values makes a person moral.  Values that do not hurt others or society.  By that definition I see more amoral religious people.  Religious beliefs do hurt others and society.  Atheist are not responsible for the deaths caused by religion.  They, to me, are trying to prevent more violence by not committing to religion.  They would rather risk eternal damnation than to subscribe to religion.  This to me is a highly moral act of LOVE.

Best Regards,

JB
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine
Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine.html#XXwlhVIMq06zWg2d.99

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #99 on: January 27, 2014, 07:29:51 AM »
There are amoral people in every sect.  There are moral people in every sect.  Being atheist does not make a person amoral.  Being Christian does not make a person moral.

I must agree with you, you are right.

But unfortunately there are a great many people who say otherwise...
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Offline junebug72

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #100 on: January 27, 2014, 07:41:58 AM »
There are amoral people in every sect.  There are moral people in every sect.  Being atheist does not make a person amoral.  Being Christian does not make a person moral.

I must agree with you, you are right.

But unfortunately there are a great many people who say otherwise...

I know so sad.  Here's a link.

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,26272.0.html

AA be proud of who you are.  You're awesome.  I read your thread in the advice section.  I have a son your age and trust me when I say that my biggest concern, frightening, is that he will not be capable of taking care of himself upon my death.  That's all most good parents want.  Show them you can do that and they will probably back off. 


Happy, Happy, Joy, Joy

JB
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #101 on: January 27, 2014, 08:10:32 AM »
AA be proud of who you are.  You're awesome.  I read your thread in the advice section.  I have a son your age and trust me when I say that my biggest concern, frightening, is that he will not be capable of taking care of himself upon my death.  That's all most good parents want.  Show them you can do that and they will probably back off. 

Ahh, right, that old thread.

Yeah...That is over now...thank god...
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Offline median

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #102 on: January 27, 2014, 11:45:08 AM »
So, essentially, if you come across a situation that is immoral by your definition, you will act in opposition to somebody who disagrees that the situation is immoral, even if you can accept that their viewpoint is also valid? Is that a reasonable summary of your position?

No. You just misrepresented my position again (for the hundredth time) with this logically flawed question (fallacy of complex question). If I came across a situation that I thought was immoral then I would not have accepted that viewpoint as valid!!

Did you watch the video I posted in it's entirety? If not, please do. It is a very good summary of my position.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2014, 11:47:19 AM by median »
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." Friedrich Nietzsche

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #103 on: January 27, 2014, 12:27:18 PM »
^^ Presumably the men in this tribe will argue that the harm IS necessary- it's how their boys have always become men, is part of a culture thousands of years old. How do you argue that the harm is unnecessary? What makes you a more valid authority than them on this point?
http://www.despair.com/tradition.html

"Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid."  Or, to put it in a bit less of a, ahem, demotivational sense, this is the appeal to tradition fallacy.  The fact that this hypothetical culture has had boys rape women to become men for thousands of years doesn't actually justify their having done it, or continuing to do it.  Thus, their argument that it's due to necessity is wrong.

Thus my alternative options - trying to convince this culture that it isn't necessary and that they can come up with different manhood ritual, or teaching the women of the tribe to stand up for themselves, defend themselves if necessary.  The options in this scenario are not a dichotomy.
Worldviews:  Everyone has one, everyone believes them to be an accurate view of the world, and everyone ends up at least partially wrong.  However, some worldviews are stronger and well-supported, while others are so bizarre that they make no sense to anyone else.

Online jdawg70

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #104 on: January 27, 2014, 12:34:02 PM »
^^ Presumably the men in this tribe will argue that the harm IS necessary- it's how their boys have always become men, is part of a culture thousands of years old. How do you argue that the harm is unnecessary? What makes you a more valid authority than them on this point?
http://www.despair.com/tradition.html

"Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid."  Or, to put it in a bit less of a, ahem, demotivational sense, this is the appeal to tradition fallacy.  The fact that this hypothetical culture has had boys rape women to become men for thousands of years doesn't actually justify their having done it, or continuing to do it.  Thus, their argument that it's due to necessity is wrong.

Thus my alternative options - trying to convince this culture that it isn't necessary and that they can come up with different manhood ritual, or teaching the women of the tribe to stand up for themselves, defend themselves if necessary.  The options in this scenario are not a dichotomy.
Tradition - that thing that makes it OK to make a judgment call on an action without having to bother with analyzing the ramifications of said action.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #105 on: January 27, 2014, 12:48:59 PM »
Even better, there's an example on the Nikzor project page which is totally relevant.  I'll quote it here.

Quote
Gunthar is the father of Connan. They live on a small island and in their culture women are treated as property to be exchanged at will by men.

Connan: "You know father, when I was going to school in the United States I saw that American women are not treated as property. In fact, I read a book by this person named Mill in which he argued for women's rights."
Gunthar: "So, what is your point son?"
Connan: "Well, I think that it might be wrong to trade my sisters for cattle. They are human beings and should have a right to be masters of their own fate."
Gunthar: "What a strange and new-fangled notion you picked up in America. That country must be even more barbaric then I imagined. Now think about this son. We have been trading women for cattle for as long as our people have lived on this island. It is a tradition that goes back into the mists of time. "
Connan: "But I still think there is something wrong with it."
Gunthar: "Nonsense my boy. A tradition this old must be endorsed by the gods and must be right."
In short, continuing to practice a behavior simply because it's been practiced a long time is not valid.  You must have valid reasons to support continuing to do it.

Take a tribe which has always used stone tools.  If they reject metal tools simply because they've always used stone tools, then their reasoning is invalid, because it boils down to them being unwilling to consider alternatives to what they've always done.
Worldviews:  Everyone has one, everyone believes them to be an accurate view of the world, and everyone ends up at least partially wrong.  However, some worldviews are stronger and well-supported, while others are so bizarre that they make no sense to anyone else.

Offline magicmiles

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #106 on: January 27, 2014, 04:09:20 PM »

Did you watch the video I posted in it's entirety? If not, please do. It is a very good summary of my position.

The video isn't appearing on either my ipad or PC. Perhaps if you could post the URL for me to cut and paste into another browser. I'll watch it before responding further in the thread.
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Online wheels5894

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #107 on: January 27, 2014, 04:31:35 PM »

Did you watch the video I posted in it's entirety? If not, please do. It is a very good summary of my position.

The video isn't appearing on either my ipad or PC. Perhaps if you could post the URL for me to cut and paste into another browser. I'll watch it before responding further in the thread.

I reccomend it too. Its URL is
Code: [Select]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNW-NXEudk
« Last Edit: January 27, 2014, 04:39:15 PM by wheels5894 »
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #108 on: January 30, 2014, 11:11:09 PM »
^^ I painstakingly typed that character by character into my iPhone browser and it isn't "allowed". I think I will just leave it be.

Edit to add: The author of that video for some reason has made other videos available. I watched 5 minutes of one of them. He's a good looking rooster, I'll say that.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2014, 11:22:21 PM by magicmiles »
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #109 on: January 31, 2014, 12:46:37 AM »
Tribes as you put it MM have always used "stories" good and bad as a teaching tool for their offspring. These stories are regional in nature for the morality (for lack of a better word) of the region,but are global as similar stories are in fact global,generally speaking of course.

 Some stories are written,some oral(passed down) but they are basically regional,but global messages of morality. There is one difference all but the "stories" of the Bible(as you see it) are morally inferior to yours. The fact the stories have a similar theme and are probably almost identical in the message,yours are morally superior for some odd reason.

 We all have stories about the  dangers of jealousy,anger,apathy,love,wild things,evil,dark places and such,they are no different. Theists claim to be morally superior,the only real difference here.
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline natlegend

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #110 on: January 31, 2014, 01:25:07 AM »
From Skeptic:
Quote
But it's not "might makes right." The reason God can do whatever He wants is because he created all life. Humans did not create life. No human being has the right to take another life, but God does.

Hmm... just a thought, I'm female and can therefore 'create life'. Does the fact that I have created a lifeform mean that I can also choose whether to kill it?


edit: added quote
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 01:27:51 AM by natlegend »
It's YOUR god, it's YOUR rules, YOU go to hell.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means...

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Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #111 on: January 31, 2014, 01:31:36 AM »
Hmm... just a thought, I'm female and can therefore 'create life'. Does the fact that I have created a lifeform mean that I can also choose whether to kill it?

I recall saying something similar to this, I got special pleading in return...

Edit: Err, not saying I am female, but the concept of "can mothers kill their offspring".
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #112 on: January 31, 2014, 09:24:48 PM »
"The creator of life has a right to destroy that life, because life belongs to the creator". Excepting women who don't want to be pregnant, of course. And scientists who destroy frozen embryos. And scientists who do research with stem cells.

Someday soon, scientists will use DNA to bring back extinct human species like Neanderthals. They will also create entirely new life forms in a lab. Not only will creationist heads explode as they desperately try to show how that proves that "intelligent design" is valid. They will have to somehow decide whether the scientists can ethically destroy the new life forms, since clearly, they created them

They don't generally have a problem logically contradicting themselves-- many supporting the death penalty and being pro-war while being anti-abortion and even against contraception. Because some life, like unborn fetus life, is innocent. Although nobody is really innocent, and everyone is an evil sinner who actually deserves to be tortured in hell for all eternity, so it is okay if god kills lots of fetuses, babies and children. He in his mercy, leaves us a few kids to raise, so we should be grateful and quit our beeyatchin'.  :P

Besides, he created life, so he can take it away...... &)

WTF?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Nam

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #113 on: January 31, 2014, 09:29:03 PM »
nogodsforme,

That's not the same because Biblegod is the actual creator. See, people and animals don't actually create life, they just think they do. Only Biblegod creates life. Duh.

;)

-Nam

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #114 on: February 01, 2014, 11:45:16 AM »
Yup, he creates every life, mothers are just the hosts.

Therefore, every miscarriage, every stillbirth, and every birth defect, is entirely the will of god, since HE is the only one responsible for the life (or not) being created.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Online wheels5894

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #115 on: February 01, 2014, 11:51:17 AM »
Yup, he creates every life, mothers are just the hosts.

Therefore, every miscarriage, every stillbirth, and every birth defect, is entirely the will of god, since HE is the only one responsible for the life (or not) being created.

Oh, I think I must have got this wrong. I thought that it was sin that caused still births and miscarriages to avoid god being blamed for them.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)