Author Topic: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?  (Read 7072 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline SevenPatch

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 706
  • Darwins +108/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • A source will help me understand.
Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #58 on: January 06, 2014, 06:37:23 PM »
OK, before Christianity, who did the people "borrow" morals from?

They pre-stole it from Jesus.

Sheesh. Don't you atheists know anything?

;)

I'm getting sick of the strawmen. Atheists are kings of the strawmen.

God wrote the law on our hearts. No surprise there. Lots of people are Christians without even realizing it. Just like how some people are non-Christians without even realizing it (the murderous ones).

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,26142.87.html

Skeptic,

You set that strawman up, not atheists.
"Shut him up! We have a lot invested in this ride - SHUT HIM UP! Look at my furrows of worry! Look at my big bank account, and my family! This just HAS to be real!" - Bill Hicks

Offline EV

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 624
  • Darwins +52/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • Philosopher, Atheist, Musician, Philanthropist
    • My Website
Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #59 on: January 06, 2014, 08:03:23 PM »
Skeptic, nice to meet you! We've not been introduced yet. I'm EV, your resident moral philosopher and musician. Would like to present to you a suggestion below.

All people are amoral if you define Morality as absolute (as in all-encompassing and having 'GOOD' and 'BAD' as universally constant entities. Morality is a Human construct, we each have an individual worldview built from the experiences of our lives. Because every culture's morals end up different, it's passed down through family and upbringing. This may or may not feature religion.

Your morals did not come directly from God, but from writings about your God in a book, and from growing up in the world around you. The debate from whether God created the book and so the morals are of Divine origin is irrelevant to this topic, which is about the morals of Atheists.

My moral worldview came from growing up and the moral and experiential imprints left on me by others. Some of that influence may have come from Christian sources, such as friends or the Chapel services I was forced to attend at School, but most didn't, and came from the principle of simply treating others as you'd like to be treated yourself. The rest you learn through time.

Think of a toddler smashing their parents stuff up. They don't know the concept of right or wrong. You can teach them it's wrong because God says so or because it's wrong as they are hurting their mothers feelings.

Either way, the morals appear, but are not necessarily from God.

We can show that since it is possible to divulge morals not from God, then to say "Atheists are Amoral" is a logical impossibility, as they could obtain morals from another source and indeed many of my good colleagues on this forum have done.
Quote
"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative."
- Philosopher John Stuart Mill, from a Parliamentary debate (May 31, 1866);

Offline nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6888
  • Darwins +927/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #60 on: January 07, 2014, 12:03:11 AM »
Atheists are amoral and should go around killing and stomping on the disabled. But they don't because god wrote morality on everyone's hearts. That's why everyone chooses to sin, no matter what religion they follow. But somehow, secular societies are nicer places than religious ones.

And he doesn't see the problem. Sigh.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Angus and Alexis

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1487
  • Darwins +71/-24
  • Gender: Male
  • Residential Tulpamancer.
Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #61 on: January 07, 2014, 05:48:56 AM »
I already explained morality is defined by God. If you don't like it, it's not my fault. No one ever said the truth had to be easy to swallow.

Animals such as piranhas and dogs do not follow god, yet they have morals.

Thus god cannot be the definer of morals.
Rule 1: No pooftas. Rule 2: No maltreating the theists, IF, anyone is watching. Rule 3: No pooftas. Rule 4: I do not want to see anyone NOT drinking after light out. Rule 5: No pooftas. Rule 6: There is NO...rule 6.

Offline Angus and Alexis

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1487
  • Darwins +71/-24
  • Gender: Male
  • Residential Tulpamancer.
Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #62 on: January 07, 2014, 05:58:56 AM »
being born is not a crime. Sinning is the crime. Everyone chooses to sin though.

A: sin is a ancient concept that has no relevance to modern society.

B: by your logic, Jesus and God himself sins.
Rule 1: No pooftas. Rule 2: No maltreating the theists, IF, anyone is watching. Rule 3: No pooftas. Rule 4: I do not want to see anyone NOT drinking after light out. Rule 5: No pooftas. Rule 6: There is NO...rule 6.

Online wheels5894

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2701
  • Darwins +114/-1
  • Gender: Male
Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #63 on: January 07, 2014, 06:38:11 AM »
EV is quite right about the distinction - Christian morals are claimed to come from the bible which can only be shown to be the work of men. Even then, Christin morals change over time and some aspects of the bible's moral are forgotten as society moves on. The best we could say is that morals come from the bible but, even that isn't really true.

Sure, freed from the constraints and regulations, created mostly by religions, atheists are free to do anything - maybe a spot of murder today? Oddly, though, as a group, atheists don't indulge in things that damage society and are far more likely to be seen trying to improve society. That ought to indicate that, in fact, atheists are really very moral but don't use religious books as a source of morality.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6888
  • Darwins +927/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #64 on: January 07, 2014, 04:28:40 PM »
Most religious folks don't use their religious texts as the source of their morality, either. People are very good at adapting to modern ideas, accepting science and compartmentalizing their religious belief. There are very few Talibans, Amish or other strict "by the book" types nowadays, and most are willing to mind their own business, for which the rest of us are eternally grateful.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline median

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1848
  • Darwins +201/-16
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahweh: Obviously not obvious.
    • Talk Origins
Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #65 on: January 09, 2014, 06:24:52 AM »

being born is not a crime. Sinning is the crime. Everyone chooses to sin though.

Romans 5:12 - 12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

Ephesian 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body[a] and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

According to your own fiction book, being born is in fact to be a "sinner" (and therefore, allegedly, worthy of eternal torture in some 'fire' - even little children). You disgust me with your superstitions, credulity, and gullibility. Small children are not in any way deserving of torture. And you know this to be true and yet you've sacrificed your humanity in deference to an invisible magic man that sounds like you talking to yourself. How so terribly sad that you hate yourself that much (and are this gullible) so as to rationalize the torture of infants.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Graybeard

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6778
  • Darwins +546/-19
  • Gender: Male
  • Is this going somewhere?
Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #66 on: January 09, 2014, 06:57:48 AM »
Dear Mr skeptic54768,

From time to time I sit and read a whole thread, start to finish. On this occasion, I came across this:
Do you realize how many strawmen you have set up to get knocked down?

I never said that atheists lack morals. I said they are borrowing their morals from the Christian worldview, considering there is no logical reason to be moral as an atheist. So the atheists who are moral must be borrowing from Christianity.

NOPE. Wrong again. Morality is about the minimization of unnecessary harm and the well being of conscious creatures. If you talk about anything else you aren't talking about morality. Sorry! You even practice this principle yourself. There is no borrowing Mr. wannabe presuppositionalist. There is plenty of reason to be moral. For example, IF you value life and IF you want to live in a healthy, happy, cooperative society then you will want to act in such a fashion that promotes the minimizing of unnecessary harm and promotes well being (i.e. - be moral). That is all that it takes to be moral b/c that is what morality is about. If you think it's about something else then please demonstrate your claims, don't just CLAIM them.

OK suppose someone thinks that humanity is a disease and wants to kill as many people as possible. There ARE people who think humanity is a disease.

Would this person be wrong? Why or why not? If he's wrong, why is he not allowed to hate humanity?
Having read that, I fear that some mad man has hacked your account and is posting as you.

It cannot be you, as you say you are a God-Fearing Christian, and as such, would know that taking God as an example is a good way to reach heaven.

You ask us to imagine “someone [who] thinks that humanity is a disease and wants to kill as many people as possible.” and then asked, “ Would this person be wrong?

So I did imagine that. And this is what I imagined:

Ge:6:5: And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Ge:6:6: And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Ge:6:7: And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.


My question is, “Was that person wrong?”


Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline median

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1848
  • Darwins +201/-16
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahweh: Obviously not obvious.
    • Talk Origins
Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #67 on: January 24, 2014, 12:49:46 AM »
^^^

"Oh no you see, you have it all wrong. God's standard is not our standard. He can kill whoever he wants, whenever he wants, and it's not wrong b/c he is holy by nature. It's different for us. We are not God!"
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline skeptic54768

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2751
  • Darwins +53/-444
  • Gender: Male
  • Christianity is the most beautiful religion.
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #68 on: January 24, 2014, 01:31:54 AM »
^^^

"Oh no you see, you have it all wrong. God's standard is not our standard. He can kill whoever he wants, whenever he wants, and it's not wrong b/c he is holy by nature. It's different for us. We are not God!"


I know you are being sarcastic, but I honestly can not see why you don't accept this. It is truly an honest and simple explanation.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Anfauglir

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6198
  • Darwins +408/-5
  • Gender: Male
Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #69 on: January 24, 2014, 04:23:36 AM »
"Oh no you see, you have it all wrong. God's standard is not our standard. He can kill whoever he wants, whenever he wants, and it's not wrong b/c he is holy by nature. It's different for us. We are not God!"
I know you are being sarcastic, but I honestly can not see why you don't accept this. It is truly an honest and simple explanation.

Indeed it is.  "Might makes right".  Its just that there are those of us who do not believe that having power automatically gives you the right to do what you want.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline junebug72

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2228
  • Darwins +73/-90
  • Gender: Female
  • "Question Everything"
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #70 on: January 24, 2014, 07:05:32 AM »
Some theists make the claim that "atheists lack a consistence basic for morality" and that "without god, there's no reason not to rape, kill, etc".  Some examples:

http://carm.org/failure-of-atheism-to-account-for-morality
http://voices.yahoo.com/athiests-amoral-hypocritical-lacking-integrity-5003896.html

In the "Why is murder a sin" topic, Skeptic54768 even suggested that atheists should kill their parents for money.  Right now I'm not going to argue whenever or not this is true, or if morality for atheists are "inconsistent".  Instead, I'm going to ask for one simple thing.

What is the evidence that atheists are amoral?


The claim that atheists are "lacking" in their morality, and that they're only a few steps away from doing bad things is something that should be easily demonstrable.  I can think of several things.

  • A disproportionally high percentage of atheists in prisons.  We should expect to see far more atheists in prisons than religious people (since they've cut off their connection to god).  Say, a 70/30 ratio at the very least.
  • A disproportionally high divorce rate among atheists.  Presumably, without god, nothing stops them from cheating on each other.
  • A disproportionally high amount of dropout, drug users, teenage pregnancy, etc.  Presumably, this is because without god, they have nothing to guide them to avoid those things. 
  • Higher crime rates in more secular parts of the USA.  We should expect to see a drastically lower crime rate in the bible belt, and people's lives in those areas should be overwhelmingly happier and healthier than in other parts of the country (since they are more connected to god).
  • This is, of course, not limited to the USA.  We'd also expect to see secular countries to have high amount of problems, while religious countries would be very peaceful, with limited amount of problems (again, because of their connection to god).

Can anyone provide such evidence?  If anyone tries to list an example of a single person (as opposed to general population), make sure to provide evidence that it was atheism, specifically, that caused him/her to behave the way they did. (like if they wrote down "because there is no god, I've decided to...")  If the evidence is nonexistence or lacking, then it seems reasonable to say that the argument "atheists are amoral/lacking in moral standards" is a terrible one.

I do not agree with that logic.  I think that atheist can be moral.  We all have the ability to distinguish right and wrong.  My impression is that atheist care very deeply for this planet and the less fortunate.


JB
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine.html#XXwlhVIMq06zWg2d.99

Offline Angus and Alexis

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1487
  • Darwins +71/-24
  • Gender: Male
  • Residential Tulpamancer.
Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #71 on: January 24, 2014, 07:07:28 AM »
I do not agree with that logic.  I think that atheist can be moral.  We all have the ability to distinguish right and wrong.  My impression is that atheist care very deeply for this planet and the less fortunate.


JB

Interesting.

So you believe that humans morals come from things other than religion?
Rule 1: No pooftas. Rule 2: No maltreating the theists, IF, anyone is watching. Rule 3: No pooftas. Rule 4: I do not want to see anyone NOT drinking after light out. Rule 5: No pooftas. Rule 6: There is NO...rule 6.

Offline Add Homonym

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2756
  • Darwins +222/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • I can haz jeezusburger™
Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #72 on: January 24, 2014, 08:22:33 AM »
Now that is a starting point for discussion.

Also an ending point, because morality is founded on the presumption that life is worth continuing, and therefore in an optimal manner.

Quote
Why do you value life?

Because non-life appears to be the galactic norm.

Quote
Why do you want to keep living?

Some people don't really, but those who are more motivated, or deluded, make rules to stop others killing themselves, so that they can benefit from their slavish cooperation.

In answer to why a morality that values life is "better" than one that kills all life (since you presented the strawman): a morality that wants to kill all life is not evidence based. If a person wanted to put forward a directive to do this, he would have to present evidence that life is utterly pointless. But we don't have the scientific evidence to make that case.

We have strong evidence that the universe was created by a non-Christian God, who despises Christians, and that is good enough for most of us to keep going.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Online Dante

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2250
  • Darwins +76/-9
  • Gender: Male
  • Hedonist Extraordinaire
Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #73 on: January 24, 2014, 08:40:28 AM »
^^^

"Oh no you see, you have it all wrong. God's standard is not our standard. He can kill whoever he wants, whenever he wants, and it's not wrong b/c he is holy by nature. It's different for us. We are not God!"


I know you are being sarcastic, but I honestly can not see why you don't accept this. It is truly an honest and simple explanation.

But how is it moral? You believe there are these divine morals that your god has given us, no? Are you sure this is the being from whom you want your morality?
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline Add Homonym

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2756
  • Darwins +222/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • I can haz jeezusburger™
Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #74 on: January 24, 2014, 09:01:41 AM »
I'm pretty sure that skep wants to suck up to his non-existent God, to curry favour with the god that despises him.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline junebug72

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2228
  • Darwins +73/-90
  • Gender: Female
  • "Question Everything"
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #75 on: January 24, 2014, 09:03:53 AM »
I do not agree with that logic.  I think that atheist can be moral.  We all have the ability to distinguish right and wrong.  My impression is that atheist care very deeply for this planet and the less fortunate.


JB

Interesting.

So you believe that humans morals come from things other than religion?

Yelp sure do.  Specifically consciousness and what we would not want done to us we naturally don't want to do to others.  I think this way of thinking is safe thinking.  It's self preservative.  I think people that commit crimes don't give a flying F!@#.  Their empathy and sense of remorse is diminished.

What do think AA?
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine.html#XXwlhVIMq06zWg2d.99

Offline Hatter23

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3950
  • Darwins +265/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • Doesn't believe in one more god than you
Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #76 on: January 24, 2014, 09:21:57 AM »
^^^

"Oh no you see, you have it all wrong. God's standard is not our standard. He can kill whoever he wants, whenever he wants, and it's not wrong b/c he is holy by nature. It's different for us. We are not God!"


I know you are being sarcastic, but I honestly can not see why you don't accept this. It is truly an honest and simple explanation.

But how is it moral? You believe there are these divine morals that your god has given us, no? Are you sure this is the being from whom you want your morality?

There's a reason that the concept "Princeps legibus solutus est" was only added to Roman Law when it was considered to be falling apart and in decline.

Because it is immoral
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline jaimehlers

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 5094
  • Darwins +586/-18
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #77 on: January 24, 2014, 09:49:35 AM »
I know you are being sarcastic, but I honestly can not see why you don't accept this. It is truly an honest and simple explanation.
It's also the old "might makes right" doctrine, saying that a person has the 'right' to do something because they're strong enough not to be held accountable.  Since God was believed to be at the top of the heap, 'naturally' he had the most might, and thus was the most right.  The problem with that is, what happens when someone else becomes more powerful than you?  Or simply has the ability to weaken or kill you?  Indeed, sin seems to be kryptonite for God...and maybe iron[1] too, come to think of it.

The point is that, even for God, might doesn't make right.  So unless he follows his own rules, we have no obligation to follow them either.
 1. God wasn't able to do anything about iron chariots without human help, at least according to the Bible, and we use iron in just about everything nowadays.

Offline Angus and Alexis

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1487
  • Darwins +71/-24
  • Gender: Male
  • Residential Tulpamancer.
Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #78 on: January 24, 2014, 10:04:53 AM »
Yelp sure do.  Specifically consciousness and what we would not want done to us we naturally don't want to do to others.  I think this way of thinking is safe thinking.  It's self preservative.  I think people that commit crimes don't give a flying F!@#.  Their empathy and sense of remorse is diminished.

What do think AA?



You are spot on.
Rule 1: No pooftas. Rule 2: No maltreating the theists, IF, anyone is watching. Rule 3: No pooftas. Rule 4: I do not want to see anyone NOT drinking after light out. Rule 5: No pooftas. Rule 6: There is NO...rule 6.

Offline median

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1848
  • Darwins +201/-16
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahweh: Obviously not obvious.
    • Talk Origins
Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #79 on: January 24, 2014, 12:07:05 PM »
^^^

"Oh no you see, you have it all wrong. God's standard is not our standard. He can kill whoever he wants, whenever he wants, and it's not wrong b/c he is holy by nature. It's different for us. We are not God!"


I know you are being sarcastic, but I honestly can not see why you don't accept this. It is truly an honest and simple explanation.

You can't see why I don't accept some arbitrary assertion of ASSUMED authority by an alleged invisible, magic dictator who lives in some 'supernatural' realm?? How puzzling! I 'honestly' can not see why you don't accept that I have an invisible pet fire breathing dragon in my backyard. It's so obvious!

As I said before, if you think your God's "nature" is the standard of morality then you must admit that such a nature has changed (killing to 'loving' - at which case your theology is false) or that your God 'thing' is NOT the standard of what is moral b/c it violates it's own rules or, the third option, is for you to admit that having slaves, stoning homosexuals, stoning unruly children, and genocide/infanticide are morally OK and good. So much for God allegedly 'writing morality' on your heart (Rom 1), since your 'heart' would tell you these things are wrong, and yet that is inconsistent with your God's alleged actions and henceforth...nature. You have a direct conflict there which is best resolved by non-belief.

Such things are characteristic of bronze age blood thirsty MEN - not all loving invisible deities that cannot be demonstrated.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2014, 12:41:23 PM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline skeptic54768

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2751
  • Darwins +53/-444
  • Gender: Male
  • Christianity is the most beautiful religion.
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #80 on: January 24, 2014, 03:58:41 PM »
I know you are being sarcastic, but I honestly can not see why you don't accept this. It is truly an honest and simple explanation.
It's also the old "might makes right" doctrine, saying that a person has the 'right' to do something because they're strong enough not to be held accountable.  Since God was believed to be at the top of the heap, 'naturally' he had the most might, and thus was the most right.  The problem with that is, what happens when someone else becomes more powerful than you?  Or simply has the ability to weaken or kill you?  Indeed, sin seems to be kryptonite for God...and maybe iron[1] too, come to think of it.

The point is that, even for God, might doesn't make right.  So unless he follows his own rules, we have no obligation to follow them either.
 1. God wasn't able to do anything about iron chariots without human help, at least according to the Bible, and we use iron in just about everything nowadays.

But it's not "might makes right." The reason God can do whatever He wants is because he created all life. Humans did not create life. No human being has the right to take another life, but God does.

This makes total sense.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Hatter23

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3950
  • Darwins +265/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • Doesn't believe in one more god than you
Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #81 on: January 24, 2014, 04:48:55 PM »

But it's not "might makes right."


Let's examine




 The reason God can do whatever He wants is because he created all life.



He has a power.



 Humans did not create life.
that others do not.




 No human being has the right to take another life, but God does.

So because he has power that others do not, he is permitted. That means might make right.



This makes total sense.

No.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6888
  • Darwins +927/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #82 on: January 24, 2014, 06:14:57 PM »
Most of us here are arguing that morality is relative to the culture and time period. It is arbitrary, true, but based on what seems to help humanity survive and thrive. Morality that hurts humanity overall gets discarded. Eventually.

On the other hand, the god standard (he made us, therefore he owns us and can do as he pleases) is way more arbitrary. It means, not only that there is no universal standard of morality (I agree), but that furthermore, morality is relative to who is performing the action. That I cannot agree with, and the sooner it gets discarded the better.

Because that is the morality of a crazed dictator:

"The only person in the kingdom who gets to cut off people's heads for not respecting me, to kill all the firstborn babies in the land and to rape brides on their wedding night is me. If anyone else does it, it is immoral. Because I am in charge."

I can't imagine any atheist here advocating a morality with a basis as shaky as that.

If we discovered that super-powerful aliens like Q on Star Trek existed, and had the power to create life, would everything they did therefore be moral? Or does your god get a special exception card? :?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline skeptic54768

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2751
  • Darwins +53/-444
  • Gender: Male
  • Christianity is the most beautiful religion.
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #83 on: January 24, 2014, 06:19:04 PM »
Most of us here are arguing that morality is relative to the culture and time period. It is arbitrary, true, but based on what seems to help humanity survive and thrive. Morality that hurts humanity overall gets discarded. Eventually.

On the other hand, the god standard (he made us, therefore he owns us and can do as he pleases) is way more arbitrary. It means, not only that there is no universal standard of morality (I agree), but that furthermore, morality is relative to who is performing the action. That I cannot agree with, and the sooner it gets discarded the better.

Because that is the morality of a crazed dictator:

"The only person in the kingdom who gets to cut off people's heads for not respecting me, to kill all the firstborn babies in the land and to rape brides on their wedding night is me. If anyone else does it, it is immoral. Because I am in charge."

I can't imagine any atheist here advocating a morality with a basis as shaky as that.

If we discovered that super-powerful aliens like Q on Star Trek existed, and had the power to create life, would everything they did therefore be moral? Or does your god get a special exception card? :?

OK suppose you travel to a remote part of the world, and men in the tribe have to rape women to enter into adulthood. Would you stop them? (universal morality) or say "Go on, don't mind me?" (subjective morality)
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6888
  • Darwins +927/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #84 on: January 24, 2014, 06:33:45 PM »
Of course I would try to make them stop. And so would you. Because we both think that rape is wrong. But the big difference between me and you is that, if god told you to join in the rape, you would. Because god.

Who has the subjective morality now?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Add Homonym

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2756
  • Darwins +222/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • I can haz jeezusburger™
Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #85 on: January 24, 2014, 07:35:45 PM »
But it's not "might makes right." The reason God can do whatever He wants is because he created all life. Humans did not create life. No human being has the right to take another life, but God does.

That's not correct. If you made a thinking robot that had a conscious mind, and it displayed all the characteristics of human sensitivity and had obvious self investment, would you feel fine pulling the plug on him, just because you made him?

"Rights" don't really exist, except in human thought.

If no human has the "right" to kill another human, then why does a snake have the right to?

Arguably, if you can kill someone, you have a right to do so; but you choose not to, because you want to cooperate with a holistic objective.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline Add Homonym

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2756
  • Darwins +222/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • I can haz jeezusburger™
Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #86 on: January 24, 2014, 07:38:42 PM »
OK suppose you travel to a remote part of the world, and men in the tribe have to rape women to enter into adulthood. Would you stop them? (universal morality) or say "Go on, don't mind me?" (subjective morality)

The fact that we object to your nonsense should give you a clue, if that's possible.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.