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Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #29 on: January 04, 2014, 03:31:22 PM »
Some theists make the claim that "atheists lack a consistence basic for morality" and that "without god, there's no reason not to rape, kill, etc".  Some examples:

http://carm.org/failure-of-atheism-to-account-for-morality
http://voices.yahoo.com/athiests-amoral-hypocritical-lacking-integrity-5003896.html

In the "Why is murder a sin" topic, Skeptic54768 even suggested that atheists should kill their parents for money.  Right now I'm not going to argue whenever or not this is true, or if morality for atheists are "inconsistent".  Instead, I'm going to ask for one simple thing.

What is the evidence that atheists are amoral?


The claim that atheists are "lacking" in their morality, and that they're only a few steps away from doing bad things is something that should be easily demonstrable.  I can think of several things.

  • A disproportionally high percentage of atheists in prisons.  We should expect to see far more atheists in prisons than religious people (since they've cut off their connection to god).  Say, a 70/30 ratio at the very least.
  • A disproportionally high divorce rate among atheists.  Presumably, without god, nothing stops them from cheating on each other.
  • A disproportionally high amount of dropout, drug users, teenage pregnancy, etc.  Presumably, this is because without god, they have nothing to guide them to avoid those things. 
  • Higher crime rates in more secular parts of the USA.  We should expect to see a drastically lower crime rate in the bible belt, and people's lives in those areas should be overwhelmingly happier and healthier than in other parts of the country (since they are more connected to god).
  • This is, of course, not limited to the USA.  We'd also expect to see secular countries to have high amount of problems, while religious countries would be very peaceful, with limited amount of problems (again, because of their connection to god).

Can anyone provide such evidence?  If anyone tries to list an example of a single person (as opposed to general population), make sure to provide evidence that it was atheism, specifically, that caused him/her to behave the way they did. (like if they wrote down "because there is no god, I've decided to...")  If the evidence is nonexistence or lacking, then it seems reasonable to say that the argument "atheists are amoral/lacking in moral standards" is a terrible one.

There was a time in my life not too many years ago when I painted all atheists with the same broad brush strokes:

- They were bitter with no sense of humor;
- They were devious;
- They lived to harass Christians;
- They worshipped the false god of Science; and
- They had a secret desire to embrace theism. 

Yet, after nursing and nurturing this preconceived notion I felt a leaning to learn more about atheism.  I chalk the interest up to God but please do not ask me to prove that as there is no way I can.

Regardless, I began reading About.com/atheism and came to realize over time:

- atheists are not bitter and they DO have a sense of humor;
- atheists are not devious;
- atheists do not live to harass Christians (the vast majority anyway);
- atheists do not have a false god of any type; and
- very few, if any atheists, have a secret desire to embrace theism. 

Then participating on this website I came to realize atheists are PEOPLE!!  Amazing! 

I suppose the argument can be made that atheists borrow their morals from Christianity since so many of them are former Christian theists.  Yet, I have talked with 3rd generation atheists on this website and didn't get an impression they were amoral in the least. 

To the best of my knowledge, there is no evidence to even remotely support an idea that atheists are amoral.  I base this on the observation that if there were evidence that atheists are amoral this website and every atheist website would be inundated with the studies by well meaning Christian theists intent on helping atheists change from their amoral ways. 

End of confession and lecture,

OldChurchGuy
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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #30 on: January 04, 2014, 03:47:24 PM »
OldChurchGuy,

The problem with atheists, in my opinion, who are former Christians, is that many of them feel based on the amount of hatred (sexism, racism, bigotry, prejudice, validity of murder, etc.,) espoused by the Bible that, in no way, could they have obtained their morals from Christianity. Yes, "love" and "peace" etc., is in the Bible, too, but (also my opinion) it's conditioned by what I list.

Now, the vast majority of Christians only (or seem to) represent the "love" and "peace" aspect without the conditions of the rest but then, like how you were, and many still are: atheists can come to the same conclusion as Christians as they (Christians) being immoral based solely on the Bible.

-Nam
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #31 on: January 04, 2014, 11:48:58 PM »
If someone believed in those things, they would be the furthest away from Christianity.
No true Scottsman...invalid

Equality for all is a Christian principle.

Ignoring the counter evidence, like all of history.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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Offline Hatter23

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #32 on: January 05, 2014, 12:01:42 AM »


Does everyone get to roam free? Even those who are criminals?

No?

Then inequality is the basis of society.

Does that make sense?


Hrrm. This"criminality" you speak of; it includes the audacity of of being born, of course unless you prostrate yourself before a leader that no one elected.

Equality indeed.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Online skeptic54768

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #33 on: January 05, 2014, 12:47:20 AM »


Does everyone get to roam free? Even those who are criminals?

No?

Then inequality is the basis of society.

Does that make sense?


Hrrm. This"criminality" you speak of; it includes the audacity of of being born, of course unless you prostrate yourself before a leader that no one elected.

Equality indeed.

I think you mean to say "ask God for forgiveness" instead of "prostrate."

When you were a child and broke one of your father's things, did you ask him to forgive you? Or did you just ignore it?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #34 on: January 05, 2014, 12:48:31 AM »


Does everyone get to roam free? Even those who are criminals?

No?

Then inequality is the basis of society.

Does that make sense?


Hrrm. This"criminality" you speak of; it includes the audacity of of being born, of course unless you prostrate yourself before a leader that no one elected.

Equality indeed.

I think you mean to say "ask God for forgiveness" instead of "prostrate."

When you were a child and broke one of your father's things, did you ask him to forgive you? Or did you just ignore it?

When you were a child were you actually normal?

-Nam
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #35 on: January 05, 2014, 12:55:09 AM »
What if that person thinks it's moral to kill everyone?
I don't think you really understand what morality is, skeptic.  Morality is not just what someone wants to do, it is also about why they want to do it.  For example, stealing is usually considered immoral, but feeding someone who is hungry is usually considered moral.  So if you stole food in order to make sure someone doesn't go hungry, then how moral or immoral is it?  So, why does this person want to kill everyone?

Quote from: skeptic54768
Why is your morality better than his?
Because of the different outcomes.  The eventual outcome of his moral decision is every human dead, including himself.  The amount of harm that would do to humanity as a whole is almost incalculable, and there are basically no benefits to it for any human.  How is that a better outcome than a moral decision which minimizes the number of dead humans?

Quote from: skeptic54768
He would certainly not agree that morality is all about the well-being of others. He would say morality is about getting rid of the humans.
So?  I don't buy into this sort of moral relativity, which says that no action is any better or worse than any other.  Since his actions would result in a whole lot of dead humans, including himself, I would argue that they result in no good outcomes for any humans, and therefore are substantially worse than other outcomes that allow for good outcomes.

The thing is, morality is necessarily in relation to something.  This man's moral decisions aren't in a vacuum - yet that's exactly how you're representing them.  If he's decided that it's moral to kill all humans, there must be a reason why.

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #36 on: January 05, 2014, 02:30:21 AM »
What if that person thinks it's moral to kill everyone?
I don't think you really understand what morality is, skeptic.  Morality is not just what someone wants to do, it is also about why they want to do it.  For example, stealing is usually considered immoral, but feeding someone who is hungry is usually considered moral.  So if you stole food in order to make sure someone doesn't go hungry, then how moral or immoral is it?  So, why does this person want to kill everyone?

Quote from: skeptic54768
Why is your morality better than his?
Because of the different outcomes.  The eventual outcome of his moral decision is every human dead, including himself.  The amount of harm that would do to humanity as a whole is almost incalculable, and there are basically no benefits to it for any human.  How is that a better outcome than a moral decision which minimizes the number of dead humans?

Quote from: skeptic54768
He would certainly not agree that morality is all about the well-being of others. He would say morality is about getting rid of the humans.
So?  I don't buy into this sort of moral relativity, which says that no action is any better or worse than any other.  Since his actions would result in a whole lot of dead humans, including himself, I would argue that they result in no good outcomes for any humans, and therefore are substantially worse than other outcomes that allow for good outcomes.

The thing is, morality is necessarily in relation to something.  This man's moral decisions aren't in a vacuum - yet that's exactly how you're representing them.  If he's decided that it's moral to kill all humans, there must be a reason why.

But, why is having humans alive instead of dead better? Humanity won't survive forever anyway and all our history will be wiped away eventually. Why does it matter if it happens today or in a million years? the end result is the same: nothing.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline median

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #37 on: January 05, 2014, 02:33:23 AM »
Thanks for dodging my challenge to you once again. Yes, he would be immoral (aka - 'wrong') b/c morality is about maximizing well being and therefore his actions, by definition, would be contrary to that end. If a man thinks humanity is 'a decease' and begins slaughtering everyone, then he is NOT being moral because he is NOT doing what is required to support well being for all.

For the second time, if you think morality is about something else then I challenge you to actually demonstrate your claims, not just claim them.

What if that person thinks it's moral to kill everyone?
Why is your morality better than his?
He would certainly not agree that morality is all about the well-being of others. He would say morality is about getting rid of the humans.

Bingo. If he said that we could discuss it and see whose is more rational. And this is why morality is not (and cannot be) "objective" in the manner in which you are trying to use the term (especially since you've already admitted that your "God" can violate it's rules too - aka there is no "objective" morality for you either b/c it too is based upon the whims of a hypocrite who, as you've already admitted, goes by the mafia boss creed of might makes right and can change things anytime). Your SPAG deity in your head is not your foundation for morality. You are - and that is what is so scary Mr. infanticide A-OK.

I value life (subjectively) and although I'm not so sure if you do, the majority of other people do as well. We desire to live in a generally healthy, happy, supportive, and cooperative society - and our definition of morality reflects that end. Further, we will unite against those who do not wish to live in a healthy, happy, cooperative society b/c morality for us is about well-being (not just following orders of 'might makes right' style dictatorship or anything else). You seem to be OK to live under a mafia boss child slaughtering asshole. We do not.

Either way, human beings define for themselves what morality is about. Some definitions are meaningless, incoherent, irrational, and/or non-useful (such as yours). We prefer that which is rational over your superstition. We value life and that is what our moral foundation is based upon. If yours is based upon something else then feel free to demonstrate why anyone should accept it (b/c so far all you've shown is that your morality is based upon the whimsical dictates of an imaginary invisible cosmic Kim Jong Il).


Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline median

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #38 on: January 05, 2014, 02:35:25 AM »

But, why is having humans alive instead of dead better? Humanity won't survive forever anyway and all our history will be wiped away eventually. Why does it matter if it happens today or in a million years? the end result is the same: nothing.

Are you really that dense that you don't know the answer to your own question? We value life and want to live. That is why.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Online skeptic54768

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #39 on: January 05, 2014, 12:19:02 PM »

But, why is having humans alive instead of dead better? Humanity won't survive forever anyway and all our history will be wiped away eventually. Why does it matter if it happens today or in a million years? the end result is the same: nothing.

Are you really that dense that you don't know the answer to your own question? We value life and want to live. That is why.

Now that is a starting point for discussion.

Why do you value life?
Why do you want to keep living?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #40 on: January 05, 2014, 12:22:18 PM »

But, why is having humans alive instead of dead better? Humanity won't survive forever anyway and all our history will be wiped away eventually. Why does it matter if it happens today or in a million years? the end result is the same: nothing.

Are you really that dense that you don't know the answer to your own question? We value life and want to live. That is why.

Now that is a starting point for discussion.

Why do you value life?
Why do you want to keep living?

Why do you? Obviously heaven must be a better place than this, I'm sure your god would forgive you for committing suicide.

-Nam
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #41 on: January 05, 2014, 12:23:20 PM »


Does everyone get to roam free? Even those who are criminals?

No?

Then inequality is the basis of society.

Does that make sense?


Hrrm. This"criminality" you speak of; it includes the audacity of of being born, of course unless you prostrate yourself before a leader that no one elected.

Equality indeed.

I think you mean to say "ask God for forgiveness" instead of "prostrate."

When you were a child and broke one of your father's things, did you ask him to forgive you? Or did you just ignore it?

So, as per usual, you avoid exactly what I said. Criminality in this case is being born unless you ask forgiveness for being born.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #42 on: January 05, 2014, 12:24:56 PM »
Why do you? Obviously heaven must be a better place than this, I'm sure your god would forgive you for committing suicide.

-Nam

Nice try, Nam. Forgiveness is not offered after death.
Besides, no one is in Heaven yet until after the tribulation and rapture.

I don't believe you when you claim you used to be Christian. You know nothing about the faith.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Online skeptic54768

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #43 on: January 05, 2014, 12:27:43 PM »


Does everyone get to roam free? Even those who are criminals?

No?

Then inequality is the basis of society.

Does that make sense?


Hrrm. This"criminality" you speak of; it includes the audacity of of being born, of course unless you prostrate yourself before a leader that no one elected.

Equality indeed.

I think you mean to say "ask God for forgiveness" instead of "prostrate."

When you were a child and broke one of your father's things, did you ask him to forgive you? Or did you just ignore it?

So, as per usual, you avoid exactly what I said. Criminality in this case is being born unless you ask forgiveness for being born.

being born is not a crime. Sinning is the crime. Everyone chooses to sin though.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #44 on: January 05, 2014, 12:33:05 PM »
Why do you? Obviously heaven must be a better place than this, I'm sure your god would forgive you for committing suicide.

-Nam

Nice try, Nam. Forgiveness is not offered after death.
Besides, no one is in Heaven yet until after the tribulation and rapture.

I don't believe you when you claim you used to be Christian. You know nothing about the faith.

Oh, so when all those Christians who come here (or elsewhere) and says, "When you die, and God shows himself to you, will you not ask for forgiveness, and when offered: will you not take it or will you still deny God?" -- and those Christians who say that Hell is only temporary, that all will be forgiven and welcomed into his arms in heaven; I guess that's untrue.

I guess you'd know being the only authority on the subject.

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #45 on: January 05, 2014, 12:37:28 PM »


Does everyone get to roam free? Even those who are criminals?

No?

Then inequality is the basis of society.

Does that make sense?


Hrrm. This"criminality" you speak of; it includes the audacity of of being born, of course unless you prostrate yourself before a leader that no one elected.

Equality indeed.

I think you mean to say "ask God for forgiveness" instead of "prostrate."

When you were a child and broke one of your father's things, did you ask him to forgive you? Or did you just ignore it?

So, as per usual, you avoid exactly what I said. Criminality in this case is being born unless you ask forgiveness for being born.

being born is not a crime. Sinning is the crime. Everyone chooses to sin though.

Romans 5:12 -- since Adam and Eve were sinners (for disobeying Biblegod ), all men (and women) are born of sin. Being born, therefore, is a sin.

Try again.

-Nam
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Offline wheels5894

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #46 on: January 05, 2014, 12:42:33 PM »
Why do you? Obviously heaven must be a better place than this, I'm sure your god would forgive you for committing suicide.

-Nam

Nice try, Nam. Forgiveness is not offered after death.
Besides, no one is in Heaven yet until after the tribulation and rapture.

So when Jesus supposedly said to the person crucified beside him that 'today you will be with me a paradise' that wasn't true? There must be at least one person there in heaven according to that.

Quote
I don't believe you when you claim you used to be Christian. You know nothing about the faith.

I think what you meant to say was that what you think you know and what others know don't match. Given that everyone is working from a book that is as hard to understand as Nostradamus, it isn't surprising, though, that people come to different conclusions.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #47 on: January 05, 2014, 01:58:11 PM »
OK suppose someone thinks that humanity is a disease and wants to kill as many people as possible. There ARE people who think humanity is a disease.

Would this person be wrong? Why or why not? If he's wrong, why is he not allowed to hate humanity?

Perhaps we need to go back to first principles.  How do you define morality, skeptic?  Not asking you to quote an online dictionary, I want to know what you believe a moral system is.  Also, in the scenario you pose, how would that person define morality?

Still waiting for an answer  skeptic.  Demonstrate you really want a decent debate rather than setting up the same up straw men, who dontcha?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Graybeard

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #48 on: January 05, 2014, 04:05:42 PM »
Do you realize how many strawmen you have set up to get knocked down?

I never said that atheists lack morals. I said they are borrowing their morals from the Christian worldview, considering there is no logical reason to be moral as an atheist. So the atheists who are moral must be borrowing from Christianity.
OK, before Christianity, who did the people "borrow" morals from?
RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

Offline albeto

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #49 on: January 06, 2014, 12:47:44 AM »
OK, before Christianity, who did the people "borrow" morals from?

They pre-stole it from Jesus.

Sheesh. Don't you atheists know anything?

;)

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #50 on: January 06, 2014, 01:16:48 AM »
OK, before Christianity, who did the people "borrow" morals from?

Before Christianity, it was the Old Testament. But the Old and New go hand in hand. There's TONS of foreshadowing in the OT about the NT.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #51 on: January 06, 2014, 01:17:35 AM »
OK, before Christianity, who did the people "borrow" morals from?

They pre-stole it from Jesus.

Sheesh. Don't you atheists know anything?

;)

I'm getting sick of the strawmen. Atheists are kings of the strawmen.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #52 on: January 06, 2014, 01:18:48 AM »
OK suppose someone thinks that humanity is a disease and wants to kill as many people as possible. There ARE people who think humanity is a disease.

Would this person be wrong? Why or why not? If he's wrong, why is he not allowed to hate humanity?

Perhaps we need to go back to first principles.  How do you define morality, skeptic?  Not asking you to quote an online dictionary, I want to know what you believe a moral system is.  Also, in the scenario you pose, how would that person define morality?

Still waiting for an answer  skeptic.  Demonstrate you really want a decent debate rather than setting up the same up straw men, who dontcha?

I already explained morality is defined by God. If you don't like it, it's not my fault. No one ever said the truth had to be easy to swallow.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline albeto

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #53 on: January 06, 2014, 01:41:08 AM »
I'm getting sick of the strawmen. Atheists are kings of the strawmen.

That wasn't a strawman. That was a joke.

Morals didn't start with your foolish book. The bile is full of genocide, systematic rape, human trafficking, beating and killing children for disobedience. The only morality in there is "might makes right." It's a joke to think our moral code is somehow beholden to your book of vengeance, magic, bizarre tales, and blood lust. If anything, our society's moral code evolves every time another one of your disgusting traditions is exposed for the hypocrisy and hatefulness it is. I asked you earlier in what way is everything being equal a xian value. You never answered. I can only assume it means everyone is equally screwed if they don't grovel to yahweh, the desert war god, in the appropriate fashion. Because grovelling to avoid a fate of infinite torture for a finite "crime" is the kind of moral bullshit you have built your moral code on, you have completely abdicated your right to comment intelligently about what morality is.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #54 on: January 06, 2014, 04:09:37 AM »
Perhaps we need to go back to first principles.  How do you define morality, skeptic?  Not asking you to quote an online dictionary, I want to know what you believe a moral system is.  Also, in the scenario you pose, how would that person define morality?

I already explained morality is defined by God. If you don't like it, it's not my fault. No one ever said the truth had to be easy to swallow.

Sorry Skep, but that dodges the point in at least two respects - albeit I'm sure not intentionally.

1) You have defined the contents of morality as "what god says".  But that was the not the question I was asking.  What is morality?  What is it for/about?  Perhaps you might like to consider it this way: how would you define "morality" such that we could look at any two systems and agree "yes, that counts for that person as a system of morality", even though we might disagree on the specifics contained within those systems.

2) Related to that - and a question you skipped - I asked you "in the scenario you pose, how would that person define morality?"  You said it was his system of morality, can you explain how he feels his system is "moral", as opposed to simply his preferences and predjudices?

You can choose to engage with these questions or not.  It would be extremely easy for you to simply repeat that "morality is defined by God", and close down further discussion.  However, if you choose to follow that route I would ask you to cease posting in this thread, as it will not further the discussion begun by the OP, and could be construed as simple preaching.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline median

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #55 on: January 06, 2014, 05:40:15 PM »

I already explained morality is defined by God. If you don't like it, it's not my fault. No one ever said the truth had to be easy to swallow.

No, you've already admitted that (according to your own theology) we DO NOT follow "God's morality" b/c this God can violate it's own rules anytime - making infanticide moral in one occasion and not moral in another, for example. So then God is NOT the standard of what is moral for humans (b/c we CANNOT do those things which are, allegedly, "in accord with God's nature" and be moral). You have a direct contradiction there (a double standard). It's correction is found in admitting that your theology is in error.

Again, God's alleged 'nature' is NOT your standard of what is moral b/c you cannot commit genocide, infanticide, human sacrifice, indifference to murder, or slavery and be moral when doing so. So then this God that you allegedly worship is NOT your standard of what is moral (but apparently it was more so for the Jews back then). You are following your own code of morality (just like everyone else) and you just haven't recognized it yet.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2014, 05:48:43 PM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline median

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #56 on: January 06, 2014, 05:55:53 PM »
OK, before Christianity, who did the people "borrow" morals from?

Before Christianity, it was the Old Testament. But the Old and New go hand in hand. There's TONS of foreshadowing in the OT about the NT.

And how about before the "Old Testament"? Human moral codes have been around for far longer then your old book. The ancient Egyptians, Summerians, Asians, and Africans far precede your book. Just CLAIMING "Well, it was written on their hearts" is just ASSUMING (once again) your theology in advance. You need to demonstrate not just claim b/c the evidence goes the opposite direction of your claims. Human conceptions of morality did not begin with your superstitious SPAG god. They began long before and derived themselves from human interactions. If you think there is something "more" or "supernatural" there then you need to demonstrate that extraordinary claim. Btw, Occam's Razor works quite well here. The additional assumption of "God did it" is shaved off, as we don't need it to explain human moral systems.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: To all theists: what's the evidence that atheists are amoral?
« Reply #57 on: January 06, 2014, 06:07:37 PM »
Before Christianity, it was the Old Testament. But the Old and New go hand in hand. There's TONS of foreshadowing in the OT about the NT.
Alright, first off, it's a virtual certainty that the Old Testament was not transmitted to various other cultures the way Christianity was.  The Hebrews simply were not interested in going out and spreading their beliefs - they just wanted everyone else to leave them alone so they could attend to their own beliefs.  In short, there's no way that most other cultures could have gotten their morality from the Old Testament, even leaving aside the question of whether they'd want to.

And no, the two testaments don't go together.  What happened is that educated Christians wrote the New Testament to take advantage of stuff written in the Old, so they could claim that their religious beliefs fulfilled the various prophecies and whatnot.  But the fact of the matter is that the Old Testament was written for Hebrews by Hebrews, whereas the New Testament was written by Christians so they could try to get everyone else to believe as they did.  And to be blunt, that's arguably the most horrific thing they did, because it enabled all the other horrific things they could then justify in the name of their religious beliefs.