Author Topic: Bill Nye plans to debate Creation Museum founder Ken Ham  (Read 1606 times)

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Offline Quesi

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Re: Bill Nye plans to debate Creation Museum founder Ken Ham
« Reply #29 on: February 04, 2014, 08:24:24 PM »
Are the fish sinners?  To get diseases?  Oh... I so hope he responds.


Offline Brad the Bold

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Re: Bill Nye plans to debate Creation Museum founder Ken Ham
« Reply #30 on: February 04, 2014, 08:27:04 PM »
Same old crap from Ham.

Vegetarian lions.

Offline Quesi

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Re: Bill Nye plans to debate Creation Museum founder Ken Ham
« Reply #31 on: February 04, 2014, 08:29:38 PM »
He really is silly. 

Offline RED_ApeTHEIST

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Re: Bill Nye plans to debate Creation Museum founder Ken Ham
« Reply #32 on: February 04, 2014, 08:34:52 PM »
Same old crap from Ham.

Vegetarian lions.

The bible, because the bible. Nye is trying real hard not to talk about the existence of god and Ham is capitalizing on it. Bolstering his claims by appealing directly to a god that Bill doesn't want to engage on.
The relevant equation is: Knowledge = power = energy = matter = mass; a good bookshop is just a genteel Black Hole that knows how to read." - Terry Pratchet

Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Bill Nye plans to debate Creation Museum founder Ken Ham
« Reply #33 on: February 04, 2014, 08:59:03 PM »
What can you prove???????   :P
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline bgb

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Re: Bill Nye plans to debate Creation Museum founder Ken Ham
« Reply #34 on: February 04, 2014, 09:01:14 PM »
Many people will hear the BS than Ham says because they don't know any better.  America is dumbing  down.  That's the scary part.  Nye isn't the best debater.
Nothing unreal exists.

Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Bill Nye plans to debate Creation Museum founder Ken Ham
« Reply #35 on: February 04, 2014, 09:22:20 PM »
Is everyone else doomed?   >:(
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline Nam

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Re: Bill Nye plans to debate Creation Museum founder Ken Ham
« Reply #36 on: February 04, 2014, 09:31:54 PM »
Seems I was right: pointless. I think a debate between Nye and OCG would have merit, and not be pointless. You can't really debate a Fundy, look at debating skeptic has gone here.

-Nam

Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Bill Nye plans to debate Creation Museum founder Ken Ham
« Reply #37 on: February 04, 2014, 09:32:58 PM »
My Christian school going son said Nye was too easy on him & they should have gotten someone like Dawkins to debate him.  I didn't even know he knew who Dawkins was!   :o
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Bill Nye plans to debate Creation Museum founder Ken Ham
« Reply #38 on: February 04, 2014, 09:34:45 PM »
Seems I was right: pointless. I think a debate between Nye and OCG would have merit, and not be pointless. You can't really debate a Fundy, look at debating skeptic has gone here.

-Nam

It was interesting but I doubt that anyone who watched changed their mind about what they believed in the first place.
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline Truth OT

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Re: Bill Nye plans to debate Creation Museum founder Ken Ham
« Reply #39 on: February 04, 2014, 09:38:04 PM »
Nye seems lost as it pertains to debating believers. It's like he has no idea Hamm will appeal to the supernatural.

Offline Truth OT

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Re: Bill Nye plans to debate Creation Museum founder Ken Ham
« Reply #40 on: February 04, 2014, 09:45:41 PM »
Hamm's presentation is actually more persuasive than Nye. Sadly, this Peyton Manning like effort by Nye may have actually given Hamm more credibility. Nye didn't rebut or address Hamm's assertions well at all. He miss many opportunities to really hammer Hamm's beliefs.

Offline Nam

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Re: Bill Nye plans to debate Creation Museum founder Ken Ham
« Reply #41 on: February 04, 2014, 09:51:57 PM »
He probably didn't want people in the audience throwing things at him.

-Nam

Offline Star Stuff

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Re: Bill Nye plans to debate Creation Museum founder Ken Ham
« Reply #42 on: February 04, 2014, 10:53:30 PM »
I find it sad to see what the virus of faith will do to a mind.

I wonder how it would have gone if AronRa debated him instead.
God is an Imaginary Friend for Grown-ups

Offline RED_ApeTHEIST

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Re: Bill Nye plans to debate Creation Museum founder Ken Ham
« Reply #43 on: February 04, 2014, 11:13:45 PM »
Hamm's presentation is actually more persuasive than Nye. Sadly, this Peyton Manning like effort by Nye may have actually given Hamm more credibility. Nye didn't rebut or address Hamm's assertions well at all. He miss many opportunities to really hammer Hamm's beliefs.

I thought Mr. Nye did very well. The goal wasn't to prove Ham wrong, it was to reach some of the audience. By not being aggressively anti-religion, he was able to sound reasonable to folks who would dismissed a Gnu-athiest without a second thought.

You aren't going to win by attacking a faith infected persons views.They wont internalize ideas that are presented in an antagonistic manner. If they aren't already questioning, then all an attack dose is entrench them further in their dogma. Instead you give them new ideas to consider. If they follow those ideas to their logical conclusions themselves, then those conclusions can chip away at their dogma from the inside.

edit: That said spending 10 minutes attacking the ark was a less than stellar move. Using it to demonstrate that the bible's ideas are testable was a good trick, but he should ave realized that Ham would be able to snap off reasonable sounding (but ultimately bollocks) refutations near the end.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2014, 11:17:03 PM by RED_ApeTHEIST »
The relevant equation is: Knowledge = power = energy = matter = mass; a good bookshop is just a genteel Black Hole that knows how to read." - Terry Pratchet

Offline Willie

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Re: Bill Nye plans to debate Creation Museum founder Ken Ham
« Reply #44 on: February 05, 2014, 02:09:10 AM »
Poll on Christian Today website: http://www.christiantoday.com/article/bill.nye.vs.ken.ham.debate.live.stream.free.watch.online.creation.vs.evolution.debate.here.start.time/35688.htm

Currently at 8% Ham, 92% Nye. Can't put much stock in self-selected polling, of course. Despite the poll being on a Christian site, the numbers could very well be driven by links to it from atheist sites.


Offline magicmiles

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Re: Bill Nye plans to debate Creation Museum founder Ken Ham
« Reply #45 on: February 05, 2014, 02:46:54 AM »
Ham was playing for high steaks but it seems he wasn't much chop.
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline Willie

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Re: Bill Nye plans to debate Creation Museum founder Ken Ham
« Reply #46 on: February 05, 2014, 02:57:16 AM »
Nye seemed to fumble his words quite a bit (repeatedly saying 4000 year old earth when he meant 4000 years since the flood, for example), had a couple of attempts at humor that came off really lame, and missed a couple of good opportunities to make important points. Ham, on the other hand, seemed more at ease, fumbled his words less, and I think his Aussie accent might have weighed slightly in his favor. But I think that overall, Nye still did quite well.

Shortly after Ham's first attempt to paint creationism as science and science as faith, Nye took on the age of the earth issue using a factual approach, presenting relevant and compelling evidence and reasoned argument, which, in addition to being a nice debunking of Ham's young-earth position, had the added effect of defusing Ham's "science is faith" claim by simply demonstrating that science is about evidence and reason, not faith, and doing so without looking defensive or giving Ham's position undue air time. I don't know if Nye actually planned it that way, but it played out nicely.  As if to ice that cake, Ham's response on the age of earth topic was very weak and evasive. His response to the ice cores completely failed to address the issue. And he (Ham) frequently invoked religious arguments throughout the rest of the debate, thus debunking by demonstration his own earlier claims that creationism is science and that teaching it would not be teaching religion.

Offline shnozzola

Re: Bill Nye plans to debate Creation Museum founder Ken Ham
« Reply #47 on: February 05, 2014, 09:16:14 AM »
   Yeah, Bill Nye knows his stuff, but is not as good of a debater than many at WWGHA seem, although typing on a website is obviously not like talking on the fly.    I like towards the end when Bill reminds us how a virus could quickly wipe out our species.  It reminds me of how the religious view science in comparison to god, while totally relying on science for everything.  There would always be survivors of an "avian-flu-type" catastrophe - would they attribute it to God, or genetics?
 
   So many avenues of thought.  Are we hurting the possibilities of evolution in the long run by our use of science to protect the less than fit - is our human intellect not allowing "survival of the fittest" to work as well as is needed?  Is there a value of the religious community, by keeping hopelessness nuts from dooming us more than they would?  Even Ken mentions there not being a point for existence, without his type of thought - so scary, these religious folks, who cannot see past themselves for the possibility for existence without God, or evolution.

       But we all live with ironies - myself thinking nothing matters in the long run, while everything matters in the long run.  But 99% of the religious that think nothing of physical existence matters in the long run, continue to work hard, pay bills, go to the doctor, live their lives as if their physical existence matters in the long run, saying "the Lord helps those that help themselves," or continuing to pray while saying it is not right to test God.  If you are going to say - "No, we are praying for God's will to be done'", then why pray?  - do you think God's will wouldn't be done? Whose will would?  Satan's?  What really is the theist's believe in the strength of God?

   It is so important to realize we are not sure of anything.  I like how many times Bill Nye said,  "We don't know."
The irony is with freewill.  Atheism realizes we don't have it, while the fundamentals of theism demand it but don't want it.

Offline Backspace

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Re: Bill Nye plans to debate Creation Museum founder Ken Ham
« Reply #48 on: February 05, 2014, 09:18:53 AM »
This morning on the national CBS news, they did a brief story about the debate.  Pundant Charlie Rose opened the story by stating "The theory of evolution is still hotly debated..."   &)
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Offline Brad the Bold

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Re: Bill Nye plans to debate Creation Museum founder Ken Ham
« Reply #49 on: February 05, 2014, 10:02:07 AM »
This morning on the national CBS news, they did a brief story about the debate.  Pundant Charlie Rose opened the story by stating "The theory of evolution is still hotly debated..."   &)

UGH! Right into the "teach the controversy" pit trap.  >:(

Ham got to promote the debate as between "Two Science Guys". Ham lost the debate but gained propaganda and press that presented him as Nye's peer. Rather than discredit Ham, he let Ham steal some of his brand recognition.

Offline Backspace

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Re: Bill Nye plans to debate Creation Museum founder Ken Ham
« Reply #50 on: February 05, 2014, 07:01:18 PM »
And out of left field trots Pat Robertson...  :o

Quote
“Let’s face it,” Robertson said, “there was a Bishop [Ussher] who added up the dates listed in Genesis and he came up with the world had been around for 6,000 years.”

“There ain’t no way that’s possible,” he continued. “To say that it all came about in 6,000 years is just nonsense and I think it’s time we come off of that stuff and say this isn’t possible.”

“Let’s be real, let’s not make a joke of ourselves.”

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/02/05/pat-robertson-implores-creationist-ken-ham-to-shut-up-lets-not-make-a-joke-of-ourselves/
« Last Edit: February 05, 2014, 07:03:29 PM by Backspace »
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Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Bill Nye plans to debate Creation Museum founder Ken Ham
« Reply #51 on: February 05, 2014, 07:56:09 PM »
^^^ That was awesome!   8)
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline Nam

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Re: Bill Nye plans to debate Creation Museum founder Ken Ham
« Reply #52 on: February 05, 2014, 08:46:26 PM »
"Yeah!" says Pat Robertson, "It's 6,001 years old."

-Nam

Offline Star Stuff

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Re: Bill Nye plans to debate Creation Museum founder Ken Ham
« Reply #53 on: February 05, 2014, 08:54:20 PM »
They're the ultimate cherry-pickers; cherry-picking the bible for the good parts and ignoring the bad parts, and cherry-picking science when convenient, so long as they still get to hold on to their imaginary father figure.
God is an Imaginary Friend for Grown-ups

Offline Brad the Bold

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Re: Bill Nye plans to debate Creation Museum founder Ken Ham
« Reply #54 on: February 06, 2014, 06:04:27 PM »
So I reviewed the video a bit and there are some important things that I want to drive home to this crowd.

Debate is a format that favors politics, not science. You can "win" a debate without any actual facts of your own.  If you lie so swiftly or skillfully that your opponent can't counter you "win". If you attack so viciously that you opponent is flustered you "win". You don't actually have to be "right" to win a debate.

On the other hand, science will move inexorable toward truth. Observation, hypothesis, experimenting, peer review all pull back the curtain covering the unknown.

And the greatest reveal of how this happens was the dichotomy in response to one question: "What evidence, if anything, would make you change your mind about evolution?"

Nye started rattling off a list of conditions that would falsify his vision of life on earth and origins. "We prove the universe is fixed and not expanding, that the stars that appear billions of light years away are actually very close..." Bill rattled off several ideas in just a few seconds. Because he knows how science works! He knows that any hypothesis must be falsifiable. He knows how to test them. He can imagine the experiments in his mind. SCIENCE!

Ham's answer, "I am a Christian". That's it. No creativity, no imagination, no hypothesis testing. Nothing. No. Fucking. Science.

So much for "Two Science Guys" Ken. You failed scientific method 101, chapter one, first paragraph. BOOM! it's over! You have no science, no theory, no hypothesis, get it out of the school and back to church.

If the IDers and creationists ever bring their circus to schools in my state, that is the FIRST question that comes out, "What evidence, if anything, would make you change your mind about evolution?" if there is no answer, then there is no science and we are done.

There is no point in debating someone who can never be swayed. And those that can never be swayed are absolutely not scientists no matter what they call themselves.

It is the poison pill against any push for ID or creation science in the classroom. Don't debate them, ask them to prove they are prepared to disavow their faith in the face of appropriate evidence. If they can't do it, they are not scientists and there is no place for their ideas in a classroom.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2014, 06:06:41 PM by Brad the Bold »

Offline Willie

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Re: Bill Nye plans to debate Creation Museum founder Ken Ham
« Reply #55 on: February 06, 2014, 07:53:22 PM »
There is no point in debating someone who can never be swayed.

Sure there is. The primary purpose of engaging in a public debate is not to persuade one's opponent, but to persuade the audience.


Offline Brad the Bold

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Re: Bill Nye plans to debate Creation Museum founder Ken Ham
« Reply #56 on: February 06, 2014, 08:45:02 PM »
There is no point in debating someone who can never be swayed.

Sure there is. The primary purpose of engaging in a public debate is not to persuade one's opponent, but to persuade the audience.

That assumes the audience also can be persuaded. But that might not be how our stupid brains work.

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2010/07/11/how_facts_backfire/

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1207/S15324834BASP2401_2#.UvQ4e7RgGqu

Since the people who care enough to watch debates are the ones that already have strong opinions about the topics, they are the least likely to be swayed by facts.

All of which makes it even more important to KEEP OUTRIGHT LIES AWAY FROM THE CHILDREN. Debate on TV and the internet all you want. Just keep it out of the schools.

Offline kcrady

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Re: Bill Nye plans to debate Creation Museum founder Ken Ham
« Reply #57 on: February 08, 2014, 12:38:52 AM »
I wish Nye had known a little more about the Bible.  E.g., "Mr. Ham, in the 11th chapter of Genesis, there's a story about a king and his people, who wanted to build a tower to Heaven.  It says that God went down and looked, and in 11:6, he says, 'Nothing they conceive in their hearts will be impossible for them.'  Now, I predict that you're going to find some way to say that Genesis doesn't really say that it's possible to build a tower out of mud-brick with slime for mortar that can reach Heaven, or that God actually has to come down and look before he can find out that a construction project like that is under way. 

"I predict that you would never seriously attempt to take literally the things Jesus says about money, even while you take what Leviticus says about homosexuality literally--while conveniently ignoring what Leviticus says about eating shrimp wrapped in bacon.  What this means is that you're not just reading the Bible as if it was a scientific treatise or car repair manual and believing what it says.  You're picking and choosing which parts you want to believe and apply to support your political positions on sex and marriage, and which parts you want to ignore or 'interpret' away.  You, Ken Ham, and your followers are doing the picking and choosing so that you can--as you stated in the beginning of this debate--establish your claim to 'authority' to legislate sexual behavior.  That's no valid basis for a scientific model of cosmic origins."
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