Author Topic: Bill Nye plans to debate Creation Museum founder Ken Ham  (Read 4042 times)

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Offline Backspace

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Bill Nye plans to debate Creation Museum founder Ken Ham
« on: January 02, 2014, 05:16:29 PM »
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The former children’s television host and outspoken critic of creationist teaching will discuss whether the Bible-based version of Earth’s origins is a viable model Feb. 4 at the museum in Petersburg, Kentucky.

I agree with the detractors of the debate idea...

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There is nothing to debate, and a ‘debate’ with Mr. Nye will only give Mr. Ham credibility that he does not deserve and increase not only his visibility but also his ability to attract investors

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/01/02/science-guy-bill-nye-plans-to-debate-creation-museum-founder-ken-ham/
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Bill Nye plans to debate Creation Museum founder Ken Ham
« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2014, 06:08:47 PM »
Actually, it'd be worse if he refused to debate.  Then he'd look like he wasn't confident in his argument, and Ken Ham would easily be able to springboard into a position of even greater strength from that.

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Bill Nye plans to debate Creation Museum founder Ken Ham
« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2014, 06:53:43 PM »
Well, it is obviously Bill Nye's choice to participate in the debate. I assume he weighted the pros and cons before deciding to do it.

God's gonna be a bit pissed about getting second billing, though.  ;D
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Offline SevenPatch

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Re: Bill Nye plans to debate Creation Museum founder Ken Ham
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2014, 08:18:11 PM »
It depends on the debate audience.  If the audience is composed of people who believe creationism then it might be a good opportunity to properly explain evolution and debunk some creation claims.
"Shut him up! We have a lot invested in this ride - SHUT HIM UP! Look at my furrows of worry! Look at my big bank account, and my family! This just HAS to be real!" - Bill Hicks

Offline Backspace

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Re: Bill Nye plans to debate Creation Museum founder Ken Ham
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2014, 02:27:35 PM »
If the audience is composed of people who believe creationism then it might be a good opportunity to properly explain evolution and debunk some creation claims.

Have you tried to explain evolution to a creationist?  Have you ever known a creationist to sit still while their deeply held emotional beliefs are debunked?

One cannot debate a believer of fantasy using factual reality.  Most organized religions would have faded away long ago if you could.  Even if Nye factually tears Ham to shreds in the debate, Ham will still 'win' because Ham's followers won't hear a word Nye says.

To paraphrase Shaw: Never wrestle with a pig ... you'll only succeed in getting dirty and the pig will enjoy it.
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Offline Nam

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Re: Bill Nye plans to debate Creation Museum founder Ken Ham
« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2014, 03:38:10 PM »
Either way, it's all pointless.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline SevenPatch

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Re: Bill Nye plans to debate Creation Museum founder Ken Ham
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2014, 06:15:11 PM »
If the audience is composed of people who believe creationism then it might be a good opportunity to properly explain evolution and debunk some creation claims.

Have you tried to explain evolution to a creationist?  Have you ever known a creationist to sit still while their deeply held emotional beliefs are debunked?

One cannot debate a believer of fantasy using factual reality.  Most organized religions would have faded away long ago if you could.  Even if Nye factually tears Ham to shreds in the debate, Ham will still 'win' because Ham's followers won't hear a word Nye says.

To paraphrase Shaw: Never wrestle with a pig ... you'll only succeed in getting dirty and the pig will enjoy it.

Good point.  I can't say I've ever tried to explain evolution to a creationist.  I know a few, but in the past I knew very little about evolution so I couldn't really engage in a discussion.  I've studied evolution over the last few months and know more today then I did probably last year.  I feel like I could probably explain aspects of evolution that would make sense to the creationists that I know but I don't know if they would be convinced.  Part of me says yes (they would be convinced) because I believe they have an open mind and are smart, another part of me says no (they wouldn't be convinced) because they hold there preexisting belief structure very tightly.

I guess it depends on the creationist.  I would hope if they are even bothering to hear the debate they would actually listen to the opposition (even though I imagine it is difficult to do).

I have a hard time listening to William Lane Craig (although sometimes I do actually listen to what he has to say just to try to be fair).  I could imagine creationists probably loath listening to Richard Dawkins.   I'm not sure how they view Bill Nye.  In my opinion Nye is straight forward and keeps things pretty simple and easy to grasp without being condescending.
"Shut him up! We have a lot invested in this ride - SHUT HIM UP! Look at my furrows of worry! Look at my big bank account, and my family! This just HAS to be real!" - Bill Hicks

Offline screwtape

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Re: Bill Nye plans to debate Creation Museum founder Ken Ham
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2014, 12:11:53 PM »
Actually, it'd be worse if he refused to debate.  Then he'd look like he wasn't confident in his argument, and Ken Ham would easily be able to springboard into a position of even greater strength from that.

totally disagree.  It depends how he refuses.  As in, "why in the world would I debate that kook?  He's not fit to stand on the stage with me.  And the topic isn't debatable."  It is lose-lose for Nye.  And he's unlikely to win unless he has some experience debating a showman like Hamm.  As PZ Myers says, this is just going to be a fundraiser for Hamm.  Nye is helping Hamm raise money.

Other thoughts:
http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2014/01/02/i-think-bill-nye-is-great-but-i-think-hes-making-a-mistake/

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Word on the street is that Bill Nye is going to debate Ken Hamm at the Creationism “Museum” on February 4th. This is a bad idea for several reasons.

First, Bill Nye is not really an expert on evolution and is actually not that experienced in debates. Being really really pro science and science education isn’t enough. When they went in after Osama Bin Laden (my errand distant cousin) they did not send people who are really really against terrorism. They sent in Seal Team Six with a huge amount of support such as Army Rangers and such and even that was risky.

... (three more very good reasons at link)
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Offline Backspace

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Re: Bill Nye plans to debate Creation Museum founder Ken Ham
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2014, 01:09:52 PM »
And Ham is in desperate need of money: his Creation Museum has petered out, and the millions dumped into breaking ground on his Noah's Ark park have gone nowhere.   
There is no opinion so absurd that a preacher could not express it.
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Offline Spinner198

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Re: Bill Nye plans to debate Creation Museum founder Ken Ham
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2014, 08:52:04 PM »
Tickets sold out in less than 3 minutes so I assume whoever is going is passionate about their beliefs or genuinely interested in the debate rather than a 1 sided slaughter-fest (from whichever side they believe to be correct).

Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Bill Nye plans to debate Creation Museum founder Ken Ham
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2014, 03:49:50 PM »
It's on tonight live... starting at 7pm I assume EST

http://debatelive.org/
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Offline Boots

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Re: Bill Nye plans to debate Creation Museum founder Ken Ham
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2014, 04:22:44 PM »
I hope Bill has prepared profusely for this.  If he's not ready to actually debate a showman, then I fear what will happen.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Bill Nye plans to debate Creation Museum founder Ken Ham
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2014, 04:45:52 PM »
interesting take
http://www.kentucky.com/2014/02/03/3066420/from-creationist-to-scientist.html#
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I grew up steeped in creationism. I was homeschooled with creationist curriculum, my family took us to creationist conferences, and I was deeply proud that I knew the real story about evolution and the age of the Earth. I was taught there was absolutely no way the universe could be explained without creationism. Evolution was a fairytale based on faith; creation was good science. I was taught that Christianity wasn't consistent without creationism... that all "Bible-believing Christians" rejected evolution and long ages in favor of a six-day creation and a global flood.
...

 After graduating high school, I went on to college and got my bachelor's degree in physics; I now work in energy policy.
...
Because so much of what I'd been taught was flatly false, I had to re-learn practically everything about biology, geology and the history of science. I'm amazed by the amount of evidence I systematically ignored or explained away, just because it didn't match creation science.

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Offline wright

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Re: Bill Nye plans to debate Creation Museum founder Ken Ham
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2014, 05:41:36 PM »
^^^Thanks, screwtape. Personal accounts like that fascinate me, and help remind me that creationists are more than just cliches.

Some more choice quotes from the linked article:
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I hope Nye doesn't underestimate creationists. Between their strident religious confidence and the way they painstakingly dumb-down and oversimplify evidence to fit into 6,000 years, people like Ham can be tough nuts to crack.

In a debate like this one, demonstrating even the most elementary facts about evolution and the age of the universe would be a great success.

Quote
The universe has so much more to offer than could ever fit into a few thousand years.

Read more here: http://www.kentucky.com/2014/02/03/3066420/from-creationist-to-scientist.html#storylink=cpy
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Offline Quesi

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Re: Bill Nye plans to debate Creation Museum founder Ken Ham
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2014, 05:57:52 PM »
Ooooh.  Bill Nye is trending on facebook.


Offline RED_ApeTHEIST

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Re: Bill Nye plans to debate Creation Museum founder Ken Ham
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2014, 06:59:54 PM »
Well, I'm watching this live. Anyone else?
The relevant equation is: Knowledge = power = energy = matter = mass; a good bookshop is just a genteel Black Hole that knows how to read." - Terry Pratchet

Offline Quesi

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Re: Bill Nye plans to debate Creation Museum founder Ken Ham
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2014, 07:01:00 PM »
I am too.  But I'll have bedtime for a 7 year old in an hour, and probably various interruptions.  But I'd love to see an ongoing commentary here.

Offline RED_ApeTHEIST

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Re: Bill Nye plans to debate Creation Museum founder Ken Ham
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2014, 07:03:23 PM »
Tom Foreman is not as funny as he thinks he is.
The relevant equation is: Knowledge = power = energy = matter = mass; a good bookshop is just a genteel Black Hole that knows how to read." - Terry Pratchet

Offline Quesi

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Re: Bill Nye plans to debate Creation Museum founder Ken Ham
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2014, 07:07:56 PM »
"Science" has been hijacked by secularists.  Fascinating. 

Offline RED_ApeTHEIST

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Re: Bill Nye plans to debate Creation Museum founder Ken Ham
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2014, 07:08:14 PM »
Answers in Genesis is a "Bible Defense organization".

Ham starts off with "The great secular Cover up" Interesting first move. Looks like he;s gonna push the "anti-creation adgenda" narrative
The relevant equation is: Knowledge = power = energy = matter = mass; a good bookshop is just a genteel Black Hole that knows how to read." - Terry Pratchet

Offline RED_ApeTHEIST

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Re: Bill Nye plans to debate Creation Museum founder Ken Ham
« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2014, 07:17:49 PM »
In his opening comments,Mr Nye, is trying to frame it as evidence vs evidence. I don't think Ham is gonna play that game.
The relevant equation is: Knowledge = power = energy = matter = mass; a good bookshop is just a genteel Black Hole that knows how to read." - Terry Pratchet

Offline Quesi

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Re: Bill Nye plans to debate Creation Museum founder Ken Ham
« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2014, 07:28:29 PM »
I'm wondering if some of the ID nuts we've had hanging out here recently were doing footwork to support this debate. 

I had never heard this "historical science" vs "observational science" silliness before a couple of weeks ago, here. 

Offline Quesi

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Re: Bill Nye plans to debate Creation Museum founder Ken Ham
« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2014, 07:40:14 PM »
So just to clarify. 

Observational science is stuff you can observe.  Now.

Historical science is stuff that happened in the past.  That you can't observe now. 

Like last week's snowstorm. 

Offline Nam

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Re: Bill Nye plans to debate Creation Museum founder Ken Ham
« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2014, 07:51:29 PM »
So just to clarify. 

Observational science is stuff you can observe.  Now.

Historical science is stuff that happened in the past.  That you can't observe now. 

Like last week's snowstorm. 

Was last week's snowstorm taped? If it was: can't you observe that?

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline Ataraxia

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Re: Bill Nye plans to debate Creation Museum founder Ken Ham
« Reply #24 on: February 04, 2014, 07:53:35 PM »
It's a bullshit distinction. Now/the present is relative, as even if I observe an object just a few feet away, I'm viewing it as it happened a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a second ago to the objects relative now. We only ever observe the past, it's just that when directly observing something, the length of time in the past is dependent on how far away it is.
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Offline RED_ApeTHEIST

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Re: Bill Nye plans to debate Creation Museum founder Ken Ham
« Reply #25 on: February 04, 2014, 07:54:19 PM »
As predicted, Ham was unable to provide any solid evidence. At all.
The relevant equation is: Knowledge = power = energy = matter = mass; a good bookshop is just a genteel Black Hole that knows how to read." - Terry Pratchet

Offline Quesi

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Re: Bill Nye plans to debate Creation Museum founder Ken Ham
« Reply #26 on: February 04, 2014, 07:58:34 PM »
So just to clarify. 

Observational science is stuff you can observe.  Now.

Historical science is stuff that happened in the past.  That you can't observe now. 

Like last week's snowstorm. 

Was last week's snowstorm taped? If it was: can't you observe that?

-Nam

Well, yes.  But in the same way that someone who knows how to read fossil records can observe events in the past.  I'm pretty sure it is "historical science." 


Offline Nam

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Re: Bill Nye plans to debate Creation Museum founder Ken Ham
« Reply #27 on: February 04, 2014, 08:06:56 PM »
I watched it a little, I like it better when Nye is funny. I still think it's pointless, though.

-Nam
« Last Edit: February 04, 2014, 08:14:50 PM by Nam »
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline RED_ApeTHEIST

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Re: Bill Nye plans to debate Creation Museum founder Ken Ham
« Reply #28 on: February 04, 2014, 08:12:33 PM »
Having trouble watching it. I drew a religious family members attention and i'm having to twist to avoid being outed.

Mr Nye's doing a great job pushing the methodology and emphasizing testing. Which is something that Ham completely ignored.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2014, 08:28:57 PM by RED_ApeTHEIST »
The relevant equation is: Knowledge = power = energy = matter = mass; a good bookshop is just a genteel Black Hole that knows how to read." - Terry Pratchet