Author Topic: MadBunny - why is murder a sin but God ordering destruction of someone not?  (Read 10460 times)

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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: MadBunny - why is murder a sin but God ordering destruction of someone not?
« Reply #261 on: January 10, 2014, 05:31:10 PM »
It seems that the overwhelming majority of people on this earth favor social stability over social instability. It is possible for a minority to beat a majority in a fight, but the more overwhelming the majority, the less likely a victory will occur for the minority.

but you guys have told me that the majority of people who believe something doesn't mean squat. The majority of the world believes in God and you guys say "majority doesn't mean it's right."

So why take the majority stance now? I don't understand.

Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: MadBunny - why is murder a sin but God ordering destruction of someone not?
« Reply #262 on: January 10, 2014, 05:32:25 PM »
Now I am confused.  If the world were atheist there would be no laws?  Just anarchy everywhere? 

Presuming I am understanding you correctly, how does one make the leap from atheism to anarchy?

Ever curious,

OldChurchGuy

Anarchy is the only logical option if everyone was atheist. There's no reason to prefer one set of morals to another. One person thinks killing is stupid, another thinks killing is fun. Why make a law outlawing either one? Let everyone do what they want. Then nobody can complain about being oppressed.

Please know you are dealing with an old man who confuses easily so bear with me.

How does anarchy become the only logical option should everyone become atheist? 

Why wouldn't atheists also want order in society?

The word "atheist" simply means "without god(s)".  Nowhere does the name mean without morals. 

I truly believe this cause-and-effect conclusion that an atheistic world leads to anarchy is incorrect.  It does not take into account our need for social stability.  Would you please explain where I am wrong?

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

You are assuming social stability is something objectively given. Why do we HAVE TO have social stability? We don't.

Granted, a stable society is a choice.  That would mean anrachy is also a choice. 

Going back to the issue at hand, is it your position that an atheist society will choose anarchy over laws?  Please explain. 

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy
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Re: MadBunny - why is murder a sin but God ordering destruction of someone not?
« Reply #263 on: January 10, 2014, 05:34:52 PM »
I know you have a lot of people posting at you in this thread so I'll keep it simple.

1 - Does your god ever punish people who don't deserve it?

2 - What benefit does the human being punished receive as a result of the punishment?

3 - Do you think parents punish their children for their sake, or their child's sake?

1 - Everyone deserves some kind of punishment for sinning. Everyone sins.

2- Person should be able to realize God is in control and treat everyone with respect and equality because we are all God's creatures. Martin Luther King Jr was big on this principle.

3 - They punish the child to get the child to learn. Every parent can tell their child, "I brought you into this world. it's my fault. If you don't want a job, then don't get one. I will pay for everything. You didn't choose to be born so you shouldn't be forced to work. It's unfair."

Would this parent be a good parent? Or enabling their kids to be lazy slackers?

Let me tell you guys a quick little story. Growing up, I knew a few people. Most of them got jobs. However, there was this one kid (don't know if he was theist or atheist, I never asked him) but this one kid never got a job. He would tell his parents, "I'm putting in applications but no one is calling me back" and his parents believed him and told him to just keep trying. He kept doing this for years and his parents never punished him.

other people had parents who told them, "if you don't have a job by x date, I'm gonna start taking things away from you." Well guess what? The kids with parents like this got jobs real quick. The other kid whose parents never punished him for not having a job is still living at home with them as far as I know to this very day.

The point is, if you don't threaten your kids with punishment, your child will turn out like this one. He realized his parents weren't making him get a job, so why get one? They never took anything away from him and never threatened to kick him out.

Whose parents would you rather have? The pushovers or the ones who threatened punishment?

Punishment isn't the only way to get the best out of someone. In fact, it is a guarantee that you won't. My children were never threatened, never bullied by parents, never hit. But they turned out fine because instead of threats, they were told what the world expected of them, and more than adequately prepared for adulthood so that they would not be confused by little things like filling out forms and such.

Punishment works as long as you're not concerned about the quality of the outcome. Actual love and concern and compassion and caring and honesty and straightforwardness works far better.

Either your god, if real, is a punisher, or one who loves. You can't have him be both.
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: MadBunny - why is murder a sin but God ordering destruction of someone not?
« Reply #264 on: January 10, 2014, 05:36:47 PM »
Granted, a stable society is a choice.  That would mean anrachy is also a choice. 

Going back to the issue at hand, is it your position that an atheist society will choose anarchy over laws?  Please explain. 

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

If they want to remain logical, they will choose anarchy. If they are thinking with their emotions, then they might want laws.

But atheists have repeatedly said to think with logic and not emotions. So, they must either take anarchy, or give up their argument that it's stupid to think with emotions.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: MadBunny - why is murder a sin but God ordering destruction of someone not?
« Reply #265 on: January 10, 2014, 05:40:03 PM »
I know you have a lot of people posting at you in this thread so I'll keep it simple.

1 - Does your god ever punish people who don't deserve it?

2 - What benefit does the human being punished receive as a result of the punishment?

3 - Do you think parents punish their children for their sake, or their child's sake?

1 - Everyone deserves some kind of punishment for sinning. Everyone sins.

2- Person should be able to realize God is in control and treat everyone with respect and equality because we are all God's creatures. Martin Luther King Jr was big on this principle.

3 - They punish the child to get the child to learn. Every parent can tell their child, "I brought you into this world. it's my fault. If you don't want a job, then don't get one. I will pay for everything. You didn't choose to be born so you shouldn't be forced to work. It's unfair."

Would this parent be a good parent? Or enabling their kids to be lazy slackers?

Let me tell you guys a quick little story. Growing up, I knew a few people. Most of them got jobs. However, there was this one kid (don't know if he was theist or atheist, I never asked him) but this one kid never got a job. He would tell his parents, "I'm putting in applications but no one is calling me back" and his parents believed him and told him to just keep trying. He kept doing this for years and his parents never punished him.

other people had parents who told them, "if you don't have a job by x date, I'm gonna start taking things away from you." Well guess what? The kids with parents like this got jobs real quick. The other kid whose parents never punished him for not having a job is still living at home with them as far as I know to this very day.

The point is, if you don't threaten your kids with punishment, your child will turn out like this one. He realized his parents weren't making him get a job, so why get one? They never took anything away from him and never threatened to kick him out.

Whose parents would you rather have? The pushovers or the ones who threatened punishment?

Punishment isn't the only way to get the best out of someone. In fact, it is a guarantee that you won't. My children were never threatened, never bullied by parents, never hit. But they turned out fine because instead of threats, they were told what the world expected of them, and more than adequately prepared for adulthood so that they would not be confused by little things like filling out forms and such.

Punishment works as long as you're not concerned about the quality of the outcome. Actual love and concern and compassion and caring and honesty and straightforwardness works far better.

Either your god, if real, is a punisher, or one who loves. You can't have him be both.

Is it possible for a judge to love a criminal and still send them to prison?

My vote is yes.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

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Re: MadBunny - why is murder a sin but God ordering destruction of someone not?
« Reply #266 on: January 10, 2014, 05:47:00 PM »
It seems that the overwhelming majority of people on this earth favor social stability over social instability. It is possible for a minority to beat a majority in a fight, but the more overwhelming the majority, the less likely a victory will occur for the minority.

but you guys have told me that the majority of people who believe something doesn't mean squat. The majority of the world believes in God and you guys say "majority doesn't mean it's right."

So why take the majority stance now? I don't understand.

What the majority believes doesn't make the "what" true.

What the majority favors makes the "what" common.

You are confusing true with common.   
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Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: MadBunny - why is murder a sin but God ordering destruction of someone not?
« Reply #267 on: January 10, 2014, 05:52:18 PM »
Granted, a stable society is a choice.  That would mean anrachy is also a choice. 

Going back to the issue at hand, is it your position that an atheist society will choose anarchy over laws?  Please explain. 

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

If they want to remain logical, they will choose anarchy. If they are thinking with their emotions, then they might want laws.

But atheists have repeatedly said to think with logic and not emotions. So, they must either take anarchy, or give up their argument that it's stupid to think with emotions.

I realize you believe that if an atheist wishes to remain logical the atheist will chose anarchy.  I am still at a loss how this comes about. 

For example, the atheist leaders of a given country gather together and review their laws.  How would they conclude that getting rid of all these laws is a logical decision?  Why would they not choose to keep the laws as is?  No doubt there is a progressive step-by-step logic to this which you understand far better than I do.  Would you please demonstrate the step-by-step logic a group of atheist leaders would apply so they logically conclude that anarchy is superior to the body of laws on the books?

Confused but willing to learn,

OldChurchGuy
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Re: MadBunny - why is murder a sin but God ordering destruction of someone not?
« Reply #268 on: January 10, 2014, 05:54:03 PM »
Is it possible for a judge to love a criminal and still send them to prison?

My vote is yes.

Voting is fine, but it doesn't necessarily result in the best answer. Of course, by bringing up judges and voting and not actually discussing what I said, you kind of got out of having to say anything intelligent. Which is apparently your preferred course of action.

Just don't imagine that you're accomplishing anything by deflecting every comment sent in your direction. Exhibitions of patheticness aren't actually something that most of us live for. Why you're different, I don't know.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline MadBunny

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Re: MadBunny - why is murder a sin but God ordering destruction of someone not?
« Reply #269 on: January 10, 2014, 05:54:23 PM »

Is it possible for a judge to love a criminal and still send them to prison?

My vote is yes.

Is it possible to love someone and have a group of people brutally slaughter them by smashing their brains with rocks?
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Re: MadBunny - why is murder a sin but God ordering destruction of someone not?
« Reply #270 on: January 10, 2014, 05:54:57 PM »
It seems that the overwhelming majority of people on this earth favor social stability over social instability. It is possible for a minority to beat a majority in a fight, but the more overwhelming the majority, the less likely a victory will occur for the minority.

but you guys have told me that the majority of people who believe something doesn't mean squat. The majority of the world believes in God and you guys say "majority doesn't mean it's right."

So why take the majority stance now? I don't understand.
Yes, you are correct that if the majority favors stability, it doesn't make stability more "right" than instability. I'm just saying that since the overwhelming majority seems to favor stability, it doesn't look like the scarce number of "instability lovers" are going to get their way. Got it?
Enough with your bullshit.
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Re: MadBunny - why is murder a sin but God ordering destruction of someone not?
« Reply #271 on: January 10, 2014, 05:55:33 PM »
Granted, a stable society is a choice.  That would mean anrachy is also a choice. 

Going back to the issue at hand, is it your position that an atheist society will choose anarchy over laws?  Please explain. 

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

If they want to remain logical, they will choose anarchy. If they are thinking with their emotions, then they might want laws.

But atheists have repeatedly said to think with logic and not emotions. So, they must either take anarchy, or give up their argument that it's stupid to think with emotions.

So emotions lead to order?

So the more angry I get, the more orderly I am?

If I get really sad then I will be more orderly?

Perhaps you mean only positive emotions lead to order?

So if I get really happy then I will be more orderly?

You are very funny skeptic.
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Re: MadBunny - why is murder a sin but God ordering destruction of someone not?
« Reply #272 on: January 10, 2014, 06:13:50 PM »
I know you have a lot of people posting at you in this thread so I'll keep it simple.

1 - Does your god ever punish people who don't deserve it?

2 - What benefit does the human being punished receive as a result of the punishment?

3 - Do you think parents punish their children for their sake, or their child's sake?

1 - Everyone deserves some kind of punishment for sinning. Everyone sins.

2- Person should be able to realize God is in control and treat everyone with respect and equality because we are all God's creatures. Martin Luther King Jr was big on this principle.

3 - They punish the child to get the child to learn. Every parent can tell their child, "I brought you into this world. it's my fault. If you don't want a job, then don't get one. I will pay for everything. You didn't choose to be born so you shouldn't be forced to work. It's unfair."


So the punishment for sin is?

Good question, MadBunny.

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." -Revelation 21:8

"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." -Galations 5:19-21


I love how "murders" is just tossed in there, right in between "envyings" and "drunkenness".

"Yeah, you know . . . envy . . . murders . . uh . . drunkenness. Stuff like that."



Come on, Skep. Let's get real here. And don't even get me started on the "sorcerers".
Enough with your bullshit.
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Offline MadBunny

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Re: MadBunny - why is murder a sin but God ordering destruction of someone not?
« Reply #273 on: January 10, 2014, 06:30:49 PM »

Good question, MadBunny.

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." -Revelation 21:8

Well, that sucks pretty bad doesn't it?
Kind of a shame every single person on earth is going there.[1].[2]

Also, damn.  I knew I should have totally paid more attention in sorcery class.



*edit: leprechauns, banana.
 1.  At least according to Skeptic54768 who points out that all of us sin.
 2. gonna keep an eye out for Kirk Cameron so I can ask him 'how you like those bananas now!
« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 06:32:32 PM by MadBunny »
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Re: MadBunny - why is murder a sin but God ordering destruction of someone not?
« Reply #274 on: January 10, 2014, 08:15:12 PM »
Let me tell you guys a quick little story. Growing up, I knew a few people. Most of them got jobs. However, there was this one kid (don't know if he was theist or atheist, I never asked him) but this one kid never got a job. He would tell his parents, "I'm putting in applications but no one is calling me back" and his parents believed him and told him to just keep trying. He kept doing this for years and his parents never punished him.

other people had parents who told them, "if you don't have a job by x date, I'm gonna start taking things away from you." Well guess what? The kids with parents like this got jobs real quick. The other kid whose parents never punished him for not having a job is still living at home with them as far as I know to this very day.

The point is, if you don't threaten your kids with punishment, your child will turn out like this one. He realized his parents weren't making him get a job, so why get one? They never took anything away from him and never threatened to kick him out.

Whose parents would you rather have? The pushovers or the ones who threatened punishment?

Do you really think it is fun to do nothing all day and not be achieving anything? If people do that there is a reason.

I once spent a few months on the Mediterranean and I was bored out of my mind in no time. I had to make up artificial sporting achievements such as catching fish or learning to ski just to keep sane. I did have a reason to be there but I was so glad when I returned home and I could get on with my life.

Doing nothing might sound like paradise to you but it is not, it is boring. If that is what you expect in heaven, you will soon wish you were in hell.
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Re: MadBunny - why is murder a sin but God ordering destruction of someone not?
« Reply #275 on: January 10, 2014, 08:43:28 PM »
If they want to remain logical, they will choose anarchy. If they are thinking with their emotions, then they might want laws.

But atheists have repeatedly said to think with logic and not emotions. So, they must either take anarchy, or give up their argument that it's stupid to think with emotions.
I'm seconding Old Church Guy.  I would really like to see why you think it is logical for atheists to choose anarchy.  More specifically, why you think laws are only something that people who think with emotions and not logic need, or want.

Please, feel free to elaborate as much as you need to in order to explain this, because I simply do not see where you are coming from.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: MadBunny - why is murder a sin but God ordering destruction of someone not?
« Reply #276 on: January 10, 2014, 08:56:47 PM »
If they want to remain logical, they will choose anarchy. If they are thinking with their emotions, then they might want laws.

But atheists have repeatedly said to think with logic and not emotions. So, they must either take anarchy, or give up their argument that it's stupid to think with emotions.
I'm seconding Old Church Guy.  I would really like to see why you think it is logical for atheists to choose anarchy.  More specifically, why you think laws are only something that people who think with emotions and not logic need, or want.

Please, feel free to elaborate as much as you need to in order to explain this, because I simply do not see where you are coming from.

Because there is no objective reason to value human life more than a cockroach. Yet, we have no problem committing genocide on cockroaches just because they take up our living space.

if you say, "I'm a human!" then you are guilty of species-ism. Speciesism is like racism, except you value your own species over others for reasons unknown. Humans=good, cockroaches=bad.
But, why? What objective reason is there? You can't just say that "We are human!" because that's no different form saying, "We're white. Why not kill blacks? They aren't white."

Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: MadBunny - why is murder a sin but God ordering destruction of someone not?
« Reply #277 on: January 10, 2014, 09:00:00 PM »
Let me tell you guys a quick little story. Growing up, I knew a few people. Most of them got jobs. However, there was this one kid (don't know if he was theist or atheist, I never asked him) but this one kid never got a job. He would tell his parents, "I'm putting in applications but no one is calling me back" and his parents believed him and told him to just keep trying. He kept doing this for years and his parents never punished him.

other people had parents who told them, "if you don't have a job by x date, I'm gonna start taking things away from you." Well guess what? The kids with parents like this got jobs real quick. The other kid whose parents never punished him for not having a job is still living at home with them as far as I know to this very day.

The point is, if you don't threaten your kids with punishment, your child will turn out like this one. He realized his parents weren't making him get a job, so why get one? They never took anything away from him and never threatened to kick him out.

Whose parents would you rather have? The pushovers or the ones who threatened punishment?

Do you really think it is fun to do nothing all day and not be achieving anything? If people do that there is a reason.

I once spent a few months on the Mediterranean and I was bored out of my mind in no time. I had to make up artificial sporting achievements such as catching fish or learning to ski just to keep sane. I did have a reason to be there but I was so glad when I returned home and I could get on with my life.

Doing nothing might sound like paradise to you but it is not, it is boring. If that is what you expect in heaven, you will soon wish you were in hell.

It certainly wouldn't be paradise for me. I was talking about others who don't get jobs and their parents let them get away with it with no repercussions.

Do you think those are good parents? Yes or no?

When I was younger, I didn't want a job. I wanted to play video games all day. But my father said, "Son, if you don't get a job, I'm taking away the video games." Had he not said that, I probably would've wasted away on video games.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: MadBunny - why is murder a sin but God ordering destruction of someone not?
« Reply #278 on: January 10, 2014, 09:19:31 PM »
Because there is no objective reason to value human life more than a cockroach.
I think you started in the middle there.  Why is there no objective reason to value a human life more than a cockroach?  And what about other reasons, such as subjective ones?

Quote from: skeptic54768
Yet, we have no problem committing genocide on cockroaches just because they take up our living space.
There are other reasons to kill cockroaches than simply because they take up our living space.  So until you show that there is no valid reason to value a human life more than a cockroach, this point does not stand.

Quote from: skeptic54768
if you say, "I'm a human!" then you are guilty of species-ism.  Speciesism is like racism, except you value your own species over others for reasons unknown. Humans=good, cockroaches=bad.
Granted, but irrelevant.  Most people don't kill cockroaches merely because they're human beings.

Quote from: skeptic54768
But, why? What objective reason is there? You can't just say that "We are human!" because that's no different form saying, "We're white. Why not kill blacks? They aren't white."
A better question is, why do we need an objective reason at all?  Why would a subjective one not suffice instead?

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Re: MadBunny - why is murder a sin but God ordering destruction of someone not?
« Reply #279 on: January 10, 2014, 11:05:21 PM »
Because there is no objective reason to value human life more than a cockroach. Yet, we have no problem committing genocide on cockroaches just because they take up our living space.

Your statement is completely absurd.

I'll start with one objective reason to value human life (and all life for that matter): life dies and doesn't get to come back. 

Next, we don't kill cockroaches because they take up living space.  Cockroaches have a negative effect on human life (cockroaches can carry disease, cause allergies, have offensive odor, and cause asthma).  Some negative effects can cause humans to die.  We then subjectively value human life over cockroach life.

Another objective reason we value life is that all life is part of the ecosystem.  We shouldn't kill all cockroaches, because that would have a negative effect on the ecosystem.  We first try to prevent cockroaches from being in our living space, then if they are in our living space we kill them to prevent negative effects on humans.
"Shut him up! We have a lot invested in this ride - SHUT HIM UP! Look at my furrows of worry! Look at my big bank account, and my family! This just HAS to be real!" - Bill Hicks

Offline Astreja

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Re: MadBunny - why is murder a sin but God ordering destruction of someone not?
« Reply #280 on: January 11, 2014, 01:09:11 AM »
If they want to remain logical, they will choose anarchy. If they are thinking with their emotions, then they might want laws.

Actually, it's eminently logical to be nice to other people.  You get the pleasure of their company, they'll keep an eye on your house when you're out at the lake for the weekend, and it greatly minimizes the possibility of them attacking you.  Why play the every-man-for-himself game and spend most of the day defending yourself and your stuff, when you can coexist peacefully and even combine efforts to tackle projects that one of you couldn't do alone?
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: MadBunny - why is murder a sin but God ordering destruction of someone not?
« Reply #281 on: January 11, 2014, 02:19:44 AM »
There are other reasons to kill cockroaches than simply because they take up our living space.  So until you show that there is no valid reason to value a human life more than a cockroach, this point does not stand.

I must prove a negative? Seems odd....



A better question is, why do we need an objective reason at all?  Why would a subjective one not suffice instead?

Because other people have different opinions about it.

Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: MadBunny - why is murder a sin but God ordering destruction of someone not?
« Reply #282 on: January 11, 2014, 02:20:52 AM »
Your statement is completely absurd.

I'll start with one objective reason to value human life (and all life for that matter): life dies and doesn't get to come back. 

Next, we don't kill cockroaches because they take up living space.  Cockroaches have a negative effect on human life (cockroaches can carry disease, cause allergies, have offensive odor, and cause asthma).  Some negative effects can cause humans to die.  We then subjectively value human life over cockroach life.

Another objective reason we value life is that all life is part of the ecosystem.  We shouldn't kill all cockroaches, because that would have a negative effect on the ecosystem.  We first try to prevent cockroaches from being in our living space, then if they are in our living space we kill them to prevent negative effects on humans.

I believe you have just proven my point. No further comment.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: MadBunny - why is murder a sin but God ordering destruction of someone not?
« Reply #283 on: January 11, 2014, 02:22:38 AM »
If they want to remain logical, they will choose anarchy. If they are thinking with their emotions, then they might want laws.

Actually, it's eminently logical to be nice to other people.  You get the pleasure of their company, they'll keep an eye on your house when you're out at the lake for the weekend, and it greatly minimizes the possibility of them attacking you.  Why play the every-man-for-himself game and spend most of the day defending yourself and your stuff, when you can coexist peacefully and even combine efforts to tackle projects that one of you couldn't do alone?

Hypothetically, if we played the every-man-for-himself game, would that be wrong?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Astreja

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Re: MadBunny - why is murder a sin but God ordering destruction of someone not?
« Reply #284 on: January 11, 2014, 03:01:49 AM »
Hypothetically, if we played the every-man-for-himself game, would that be wrong?

That depends entirely on the desired outcome; that is, something could be said to be "right" if it achieves its goal, and "wrong" if it does not.

If the goal is to achieve personal happiness, there would probably be an ever-decreasing number of sociopaths who achieve their version of happiness by taking what they want from others.  There might be a few individuals who are big enough and mean enough to do as they please, but that probably won't last.   As they age others will depose them, only to discover that it's easier to take than to keep.  In the long term, the strategy achieves only short-term satisfaction for a small group of people, and requires constant vigilance.  I'd call it wrong from that point of view.

Rather than associating "right" with "good" and "wrong" with "evil," think of "right" as "works" and "wrong" as "doesn't work."  It gives an interesting alternate interpretation of "Might makes right," and it fits the Biblical god quite well:  Supposedly it has the power to achieve any of its goals with only minimal interference, so might is definitely working in its favour.
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Offline lotanddaughters

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Re: MadBunny - why is murder a sin but God ordering destruction of someone not?
« Reply #285 on: January 11, 2014, 06:41:20 AM »
If they want to remain logical, they will choose anarchy. If they are thinking with their emotions, then they might want laws.

Actually, it's eminently logical to be nice to other people.  You get the pleasure of their company, they'll keep an eye on your house when you're out at the lake for the weekend, and it greatly minimizes the possibility of them attacking you.  Why play the every-man-for-himself game and spend most of the day defending yourself and your stuff, when you can coexist peacefully and even combine efforts to tackle projects that one of you couldn't do alone?

Hypothetically, if we played the every-man-for-himself game, would that be wrong?

Not necessarily. It would be as wrong as dousing yourself with gasoline and setting yourself on fire. If that's what you want to do, and the universe allows you to do it, that's what you'll do. The reality is that the overwhelming majority of humans don't want to do that, nor do they want to play the every-man-for-himself game.


Skep, did you notice yourself dodging by not answering Astreja's excellent question?

Why play the every-man-for-himself game and spend most of the day defending yourself and your stuff, when you can coexist peacefully and even combine efforts to tackle projects that one of you couldn't do alone?

Instead of answering, you asked a hypothetical question, trying to steer the conversation back into your misunderstanding of the definition of "wrong". We atheists completely understand why you did this. It's because honestly answering her question traps you into a corner of realization that screams "Hey! I can actually see how most humans would want to coexist peacefully! It's the best possible solution to any sane mind! And, it totally explains the reality of the situation without involving a God, who, so the story goes, once told people they are free to go out and kill, conquer, and enslave!"

Please answer her question honestly.
Enough with your bullshit.
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Offline SevenPatch

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Re: MadBunny - why is murder a sin but God ordering destruction of someone not?
« Reply #286 on: January 11, 2014, 10:25:08 AM »
Your statement is completely absurd.

I'll start with one objective reason to value human life (and all life for that matter): life dies and doesn't get to come back. 

Next, we don't kill cockroaches because they take up living space.  Cockroaches have a negative effect on human life (cockroaches can carry disease, cause allergies, have offensive odor, and cause asthma).  Some negative effects can cause humans to die.  We then subjectively value human life over cockroach life.

Another objective reason we value life is that all life is part of the ecosystem.  We shouldn't kill all cockroaches, because that would have a negative effect on the ecosystem.  We first try to prevent cockroaches from being in our living space, then if they are in our living space we kill them to prevent negative effects on humans.

I believe you have just proven my point. No further comment.

I haven't though.  You're just reading what you want to read so you'll be right.

... unless your point is that you are wrong, then I agree.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2014, 10:33:03 AM by SevenPatch »
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Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: MadBunny - why is murder a sin but God ordering destruction of someone not?
« Reply #287 on: January 11, 2014, 10:31:05 AM »
Quote

I realize you believe that if an atheist wishes to remain logical the atheist will chose anarchy.  I am still at a loss how this comes about. 

For example, the atheist leaders of a given country gather together and review their laws.  How would they conclude that getting rid of all these laws is a logical decision?  Why would they not choose to keep the laws as is?  No doubt there is a progressive step-by-step logic to this which you understand far better than I do.  Would you please demonstrate the step-by-step logic a group of atheist leaders would apply so they logically conclude that anarchy is superior to the body of laws on the books?

Confused but willing to learn,

OldChurchGuy

With all due respect, I am still looking for the step-by-step logic a group of atheist leaders would apply so they logically conclude that anarchy is superior to the body of laws on the books.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy
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Offline Quesi

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Re: MadBunny - why is murder a sin but God ordering destruction of someone not?
« Reply #288 on: January 11, 2014, 10:35:31 AM »
@Skeptic -

Your assertions are so absurd that I don't even know how to respond, other than the say EMPATHY.   

Your belief that we need some sort of a deity to care about people is so far from my experience, that I find myself just angry and baffled.

First of all, (and I've said this before) I care about human beings and the quality of life of human beings BECAUSE I don't believe that there is a shiny afterlife awaiting the suffering.  Therefore, I have dedicated my life to working with marginalized people, many of whom are refugees, some torture survivors, to help them build a new lives for themselves.  To help them find a sense of accomplishment.  Joy.  To try and leave pain behind and move on.  Furthermore, I have worked to support policies of fair migration, just food distribution, safe working conditions, etc.

On a personal level, I have been through a period of extreme personal pain.  Not pain for myself, but pain for people I care about.  In a three month period, two sets of friends have buried their children.  One innocent three year old hit by a car.  And a promising 25 year old whose sudden death has shocked his friends and family.  As I prepared my "happy winter break" activities with my own daughter, (ear piercing, Rockettes, baking cookies to share with neighbors, museum trips, presents and playdates and afternoons cuddling in front of a movie at home) what should have been a joyous time for me and my family was overshadowed by the pain of the loss of these human beings.

In between happy family activities, I struggled to make contact everyone who was not out of town, and let them know about funeral arrangements and the times and dates of the wake, the funeral service and burial for this sweet young man who died so young.  I frantically arranged childcare between Christmas and New Years so I could attend these events.  And many mornings I woke up weeping, and then put on my happy face because my daughter deserved a mommy who was prepared to give her all of the attention and fun and love that she had anticipated having during her week and a half off from school.  And the whole time I felt the guilt of having such a loving, wonderful, happy family, at a time in which one family I know was suffering the loss of their toddler, and another family was suffering the loss of their loving, gentle son.

Why would I, as an atheist, be experiencing this range of emotions?  Why would I give a shit about my daughter's joy or my friends' pain?

Because human beings are programmed to feel empathy.  Some of us are wired wrong.  But most of us care about the welfare of the people around us.  We care most about the people who are closest to us.  And mass tragedies may (like what is going on in the Congo right now) are beyond our comprehension.  But the more we learn about other human beings, the more we care. We even cry for fictional characters in tragic books or movies.  Even atheists do.

It is absurd to say that in the absence of religion, people would start harming each other indiscriminately.   

So just stop this bullshit.   

/rant off

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: MadBunny - why is murder a sin but God ordering destruction of someone not?
« Reply #289 on: January 11, 2014, 12:24:24 PM »
I must prove a negative? Seems odd....
You certainly had no problems at all positively declaring that a human life was of no greater value than a cockroach.  For that statement to have any value, you must support it.  If you cannot support it, then it is merely your opinion, and thus is no more valid than you declaring that atheists must all like chocolate ice cream.  If that means proving a negative, so be it.  You would certainly not be the first person to stick your foot in it by trying to make your own opinion sound like a declaration of fact and then falling short when the time came to support it.

Quote from: skeptic54768
Because other people have different opinions about it.
So, because other people people have different opinions about what's right and what's wrong, you apparently feel that human beings logically must refuse to accept rules that they don't agree with.  Oddly enough, I agree to a certain point.  That's why you see people in our very own society trying to change laws they disagree with, or simply breaking them.  The great majority of those people are religious - evidenced by what prisoners state is their religion[1][2], and thus supporting my point.  Specifically, that the laws a society agrees to live under are not based on some objective standard, but a subjective one that the members of society as a whole agree with.

That, incidentally, explains why atheists do not seek to dismantle the laws of society in order to create anarchy.  Because they agree overall with the subjective standard of the society they live in.  Therefore, it seems that your presumption, that atheists must necessarily support anarchy, is demonstrably wrong by those same prison statistics I quoted just a little while ago[3].  If such a small percentage of atheists are in prison, then atheists as a whole cannot support anarchy, because anarchists would be much more likely to break laws and thus get themselves into prison to begin with.
 1. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2012/03/29/what-percentage-of-prisoners-are-atheists-pew-forum-offers-an-answer/
 2. http://www.adherents.com/misc/adh_prison.html
 3. as well as this one, which is far more devastating to it: http://natskep.com/only-0-07-of-prisoners-are-atheists-according-to-a-2013-federal-bureau-of-prisons-report/