MadBunny - why is murder a sin but God ordering destruction of someone not?

[SevenPatch]

In an atheistic world, it would be OK to kill your parents to get the money though. Money would get you places in life. You parents being alive wouldn't get you anywhere.

But since Christians don't care about money and material things, we wouldn't even dream of the idea.

But someone who thought money was all you needed to be successful? Now that would be scary.

Wow, you are messed up in the head.  On several levels.

Seek professional psychiatric help.

EDIT: This is not an insult.  I am completely serious, seek help.

[skeptic54768]

In an atheistic world, it would be OK to kill your parents to get the money though. Money would get you places in life. You parents being alive wouldn't get you anywhere.

But since Christians don't care about money and material things, we wouldn't even dream of the idea.

But someone who thought money was all you needed to be successful? Now that would be scary.

Wow, you are messed up in the head.  On several levels.

Seek professional psychiatric help.

EDIT: This is not an insult.  I am completely serious, seek help.

Shouldn't the people who murder their parents for money need psychiatric help?

Why would I? I would never do such a thing.

[jynnan tonnix]

Yes. Those people would. However, were you to do a careful analysis of all the people out there murdering their parents, I would be willing to bet that the proportion identifying as atheist would be vanishingly small.

Is this really the way you perceive us as thinking?

[skeptic54768]

Yes. Those people would. However, were you to do a careful analysis of all the people out there murdering their parents, I would be willing to bet that the proportion identifying as atheist would be vanishingly small.

Is this really the way you perceive us as thinking?

Of course not. But the fact remains you guys are borrowing from Christianity by not doing it.

Some people certainly care all about money and would kill their parents for it. This is based on the "money is everything" mentality. There is no objective reason for an atheist to get mad if someone does it. The best they can say is, "Well, you have a different view than I do."

Only Christianity teaches us to love one another. Atheism teaches us nothing. Every man for himself.

[ParkingPlaces]

Skep

Pre-Columbus Indians were not murderous, rampaging hordes. They had moral systems that we can easily call admirable. Note that there is no record whatsoever of large armies of Indians running all over the prairies slaughtering each other over religious beliefs or anything else. They certainly fought locally, but at nowhere near the level of European and Asian cultures. The first Europeans arriving in what is now laughed at the Indians because they were so frickin' clean. And the natives generously offered food and other much needed gifts to the Europeans, at least until the Europeans started shooting and stuff.

The Spanish were able to conquer the Aztecs with a tiny army, because the Aztecs had never been to war. They didn't know how to fight.

The first Europeans traveling up the Mississippi found farms along the river for hundreds of miles, and smiling, generous Indians.

Yet they had never been exposed to Christianity.

How is that possible if you say that all morals come from your religion. How could they possibly have been better human beings that Christians without being exposed to your ideals?

[skeptic54768]

Skep

Pre-Columbus Indians were not murderous, rampaging hordes. They had moral systems that we can easily call admirable. Note that there is no record whatsoever of large armies of Indians running all over the prairies slaughtering each other over religious beliefs or anything else. They certainly fought locally, but at nowhere near the level of European and Asian cultures. The first Europeans arriving in what is now laughed at the Indians because they were so frickin' clean. And the natives generously offered food and other much needed gifts to the Europeans, at least until the Europeans started shooting and stuff.

The Spanish were able to conquer the Aztecs with a tiny army, because the Aztecs had never been to war. They didn't know how to fight.

The first Europeans traveling up the Mississippi found farms along the river for hundreds of miles, and smiling, generous Indians.

Yet they had never been exposed to Christianity.

How is that possible if you say that all morals come from your religion. How could they possibly have been better human beings that Christians without being exposed to your ideals?

God wrote the law on our hearts. No surprise there. Lots of people are Christians without even realizing it. Just like how some people are non-Christians without even realizing it (the murderous ones).

[12 Monkeys]

In my territory raids were small and followed protocols that were strictly adhered to. Raids varied in reason,from slave raids(yes Skep slaves), to disputes over fishing grounds breeding partners and even revenge.  They did follow strict protocol and were rare.

 Trade between nations and clans was much more beneficial than conflict.  Food pelts and tools were more valuable than war. The Christian view is not to trade,but to kill and take what does not belong to them.

[12 Monkeys]

Skep

Pre-Columbus Indians were not murderous, rampaging hordes. They had moral systems that we can easily call admirable. Note that there is no record whatsoever of large armies of Indians running all over the prairies slaughtering each other over religious beliefs or anything else. They certainly fought locally, but at nowhere near the level of European and Asian cultures. The first Europeans arriving in what is now laughed at the Indians because they were so frickin' clean. And the natives generously offered food and other much needed gifts to the Europeans, at least until the Europeans started shooting and stuff.

The Spanish were able to conquer the Aztecs with a tiny army, because the Aztecs had never been to war. They didn't know how to fight.

The first Europeans traveling up the Mississippi found farms along the river for hundreds of miles, and smiling, generous Indians.

Yet they had never been exposed to Christianity.

How is that possible if you say that all morals come from your religion. How could they possibly have been better human beings that Christians without being exposed to your ideals?

God wrote the law on our hearts. No surprise there. Lots of people are Christians without even realizing it. Just like how some people are non-Christians without even realizing it (the murderous ones).

The not really Christian,Christians....still think they ARE real Christians.... At the same time they think YOU really are NOT a Christian.

[ParkingPlaces]

God wrote the law on our hearts. No surprise there. Lots of people are Christians without even realizing it. Just like how some people are non-Christians without even realizing it (the murderous ones).

So he wrote the law in our hearts but forgot to tell the Christians? Do you know what Christopher Columbus did when he returned to the West Indies? He had a heart written on, but he and his men killed and killed. He wrote in his journal how he preferred sex with nine and ten year old girls over the older females he raped. They killed people and used their bodies for dog food because they needed to feed the dogs. Your god surely wrote on their hearts as well. Right?

How is it that someone who was directly exposed to christian values AND who had his heart "written" on, could act like that, and peoples never exposed could act so much better? Help me with this.

[12 Monkeys]

Simply put PP  Columbus,his men,the Spanish and The Christians that Skeptic and the other religious  Americans who think Christianity established America were NOT really Christian,they just did not know they were not "true Christians".

[ParkingPlaces]

Simply put PP  Columbus,his men,the Spanish and The Christians that Skeptic and the other religious  Americans who think Christianity established America were NOT really Christian,they just did not know they were not "true Christians".

I know that. I'm just trying to figure out why Native Americans, also not true christians, acted better than their European counterparts. Well, their European murderers. It seems like if god is running around using Sharpies on everyones heart, making them christians when they don't even suspect it, those who are a bit more aware of the backstory should operate in a bit more, um, christian manner.

Which of course they did. Its just that being christian, any version, makes a person worse rather than better. Of course it does not good to tell that to a christian, who is, well, worse rather than better. But its fun to try.

[skeptic54768]

Simply put PP  Columbus,his men,the Spanish and The Christians that Skeptic and the other religious  Americans who think Christianity established America were NOT really Christian,they just did not know they were not "true Christians".

I know that. I'm just trying to figure out why Native Americans, also not true christians, acted better than their European counterparts. Well, their European murderers. It seems like if god is running around using Sharpies on everyones heart, making them christians when they don't even suspect it, those who are a bit more aware of the backstory should operate in a bit more, um, christian manner.

Which of course they did. Its just that being christian, any version, makes a person worse rather than better. Of course it does not good to tell that to a christian, who is, well, worse rather than better. But its fun to try.

You do realize jesus never commanded anyone to murder whenever they wanted, right?

You should be familiar with the Bible and you should know it's not in there ANYWHERE. PERIOD.

Sp, why do you keep insisting they are Christians following Jesus? Didn't Jesus say "I never knew ye" to certain pretenders?

[12 Monkeys]

The fact Skep and the likes of his like minded brothers dismiss the mass of Christians as not really Christian is a puzzle,as he does not do all he can to live as Christ has commanded him to. Skep blames being human and not perfect for his faults at the same time he dismisses other Christians who are "not perfect" as not Christian.

[12 Monkeys]

Simply put PP  Columbus,his men,the Spanish and The Christians that Skeptic and the other religious  Americans who think Christianity established America were NOT really Christian,they just did not know they were not "true Christians".

I know that. I'm just trying to figure out why Native Americans, also not true christians, acted better than their European counterparts. Well, their European murderers. It seems like if god is running around using Sharpies on everyones heart, making them christians when they don't even suspect it, those who are a bit more aware of the backstory should operate in a bit more, um, christian manner.

Which of course they did. Its just that being christian, any version, makes a person worse rather than better. Of course it does not good to tell that to a christian, who is, well, worse rather than better. But its fun to try.

You do realize jesus never commanded anyone to murder whenever they wanted, right?

You should be familiar with the Bible and you should know it's not in there ANYWHERE. PERIOD.

Sp, why do you keep insisting they are Christians following Jesus? Didn't Jesus say "I never knew ye" to certain pretenders?

good thing Jesus is not like his murder loving daddy....

[12 Monkeys]

Skep here is an interesting PDF file about your loving brothers I doubt you will even glance at it

http://canadiangenocide.nativeweb.org/genocide.pdf

[ParkingPlaces]

Simply put PP  Columbus,his men,the Spanish and The Christians that Skeptic and the other religious  Americans who think Christianity established America were NOT really Christian,they just did not know they were not "true Christians".

I know that. I'm just trying to figure out why Native Americans, also not true christians, acted better than their European counterparts. Well, their European murderers. It seems like if god is running around using Sharpies on everyones heart, making them christians when they don't even suspect it, those who are a bit more aware of the backstory should operate in a bit more, um, christian manner.

Which of course they did. Its just that being christian, any version, makes a person worse rather than better. Of course it does not good to tell that to a christian, who is, well, worse rather than better. But its fun to try.

You do realize jesus never commanded anyone to murder whenever they wanted, right?

You should be familiar with the Bible and you should know it's not in there ANYWHERE. PERIOD.

Sp, why do you keep insisting they are Christians following Jesus? Didn't Jesus say "I never knew ye" to certain pretenders?

Well, they call themselves christians, and as an atheist, I don't feel qualified to do the judging on who is and who is not a christian. I think you guys should sort it out (all of you who self0identify as christian, no matter how many folks you've killed), and then let us know the results when you're done.

Neither you or I have killed anyone Skep. You want to give all the credit to your god, and say he wrote some sort of goodness on my heart, so I'm pretty nice even though I'm not a christian. So you can explain my behavior nicely, at least from your perspective. But you can't explain why people who say that they believe in the same god you do would behave so contrary to your specific christian values.

Why in the world would that "writing on the heart" not work on someone who seems intent on being a follower, and work just fine on someone who is not a follower? What is it about being a bible-reading, god-fearing, praying, worshipping god-follower makes the process fail? So badly that they become worse than me?

Is that why you're here? Because so many of us atheists are better people that the scuzzy theists who walk through church doors every Sunday but do horrible things the rest of the week?

I say that our genes essentially wrote good things on our heart but that believers, those willing to contort their religion for selfish means, erase the good with their god, and ruin it for all of us. If you are indeed a good person, who believes in god but can't quite parse the vast gulf between decency and that which is commonly called christianity, maybe you're doing it wrong.

You should become one of us, guy. So that you'll be relieved of the very real danger that christianity will distort your mind too.

[Astreja]

Only Christianity teaches us to love one another.

Not so.  According to Gautama Buddha:

"Resolve to be tender with the young, compassionate with the aged, sympathetic with the striving and tolerant with the weak and wrong. Sometime in your life, you will have been all of these."

"As rain falls equally on the just and the unjust, do not burden your heart with judgements but rain your kindness equally on all."

"A generous heart, kind speech, and a life of service and compassion are the things which renew humanity."

And Laozi (Daoism):

"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage."

And here's one from the Yajur Veda (Hinduism):

“The one who loves all intensely begins perceiving in all living beings a part of himself…
He becomes a lover of all, a part and parcel of the Universal Joy.
He flows with the stream of happiness, and is enriched by each soul.”

There are many more counterexamples, but these will suffice for now.

[Astreja]

Skep here is an interesting PDF file about your loving brothers I doubt you will even glance at it

http://canadiangenocide.nativeweb.org/genocide.pdf

  I can't find the words, 12M. 

[12 Monkeys]

Skep here is an interesting PDF file about your loving brothers I doubt you will even glance at it

http://canadiangenocide.nativeweb.org/genocide.pdf

  I can't find the words, 12M.

go to hiddenfromhistory.org the PDF is there ... I thought it worked sorry bout that

[xyzzy]

Skep here is an interesting PDF file about your loving brothers I doubt you will even glance at it

http://canadiangenocide.nativeweb.org/genocide.pdf

  I can't find the words, 12M.

go to hiddenfromhistory.org the PDF is there ... I thought it worked sorry bout that

I think Astreja meant something along the lines that she couldn't find the words to to adequately express feelings other than disgust and revulsion after reading about those actions. Nor, frankly, can I. Not that I anticipate that to be an unusual reaction amongst caring and sentient individuals.

But, let me suggest a single, solitary, word that might account for (but not excuse) the circumstances: religion

[skeptic54768]

Skep here is an interesting PDF file about your loving brothers I doubt you will even glance at it

http://canadiangenocide.nativeweb.org/genocide.pdf

  I can't find the words, 12M.

go to hiddenfromhistory.org the PDF is there ... I thought it worked sorry bout that

You guys accuse me of being a paranoid nut and you link to "Hidden From History?" Why is it hidden? What is being hidden? If they hide history from us, what else are they hiding about us?

And I'm the conspiracy nut?

[skeptic54768]

Only Christianity teaches us to love one another.

Not so.  According to Gautama Buddha:

"Resolve to be tender with the young, compassionate with the aged, sympathetic with the striving and tolerant with the weak and wrong. Sometime in your life, you will have been all of these."

"As rain falls equally on the just and the unjust, do not burden your heart with judgements but rain your kindness equally on all."

"A generous heart, kind speech, and a life of service and compassion are the things which renew humanity."

And Laozi (Daoism):

"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage."

And here's one from the Yajur Veda (Hinduism):

“The one who loves all intensely begins perceiving in all living beings a part of himself…
He becomes a lover of all, a part and parcel of the Universal Joy.
He flows with the stream of happiness, and is enriched by each soul.”

There are many more counterexamples, but these will suffice for now.

but you are proving MY point, albeit unintentionally. God wrote His law on their hearts. It's no shock they sound similar to Christianity. 

[skeptic54768]

Well, they call themselves christians, and as an atheist, I don't feel qualified to do the judging on who is and who is not a christian. I think you guys should sort it out (all of you who self0identify as christian, no matter how many folks you've killed), and then let us know the results when you're done.

Neither you or I have killed anyone Skep. You want to give all the credit to your god, and say he wrote some sort of goodness on my heart, so I'm pretty nice even though I'm not a christian. So you can explain my behavior nicely, at least from your perspective. But you can't explain why people who say that they believe in the same god you do would behave so contrary to your specific christian values.

Why in the world would that "writing on the heart" not work on someone who seems intent on being a follower, and work just fine on someone who is not a follower? What is it about being a bible-reading, god-fearing, praying, worshipping god-follower makes the process fail? So badly that they become worse than me?

Is that why you're here? Because so many of us atheists are better people that the scuzzy theists who walk through church doors every Sunday but do horrible things the rest of the week?

I say that our genes essentially wrote good things on our heart but that believers, those willing to contort their religion for selfish means, erase the good with their god, and ruin it for all of us. If you are indeed a good person, who believes in god but can't quite parse the vast gulf between decency and that which is commonly called christianity, maybe you're doing it wrong.

You should become one of us, guy. So that you'll be relieved of the very real danger that christianity will distort your mind too.

All I am doing is preaching pure love and tolerance and this is a distortion of my mind?

All I asked for is to show me Jesus commanding people to kill whoever and whenever they want. That has not been done yet. So, why do you continue to side with Columbus & friends instead of what Jesus ACTUALLY said?

I do not want to sound insulting, but even a braindead person can see Jesus never commanded cold-blooded murder at will.

If we went back in time, this would have a convo with Columbus would go:

Me: it doesn't say to kill at will in the bible.
Columbus: You think I give a crap? I'm just using the name of Jesus as an excuse. I don't care what Jesus actually says.

[MadBunny]

Will you be answering my earlier posts, or just moving right along and ignoring them?

You do realize jesus never commanded anyone to murder whenever they wanted, right?

You should be familiar with the Bible and you should know it's not in there ANYWHERE. PERIOD.

Sp, why do you keep insisting they are Christians following Jesus? Didn't Jesus say "I never knew ye" to certain pretenders?

Without going back and reading the Jesus parts of the bible I can't be sure, but for the sake of simplicity lets say you're correct.
There are other parts of the bible with pretty specific instructions on who and how to kill people.  Again, for the sake of simplicity I'll simply assume that you understand this.

Now, if you wish to tell me what parts of the bible don't count, I'll avoid using them as reference.[1]

Really you have to make up your mind on this one: is the bible to be taken as a whole and considered 'law' or is it just a bunch of nifty stories and helpful suggestions?
That's kind of the problem with this, it's binary.  Like sin, there is either 'sin' or there isn't.  If there is, then there is really only one punishment mentioned and that's death (plus).

1.	You should, of course avoid doing this, since it opens the obvious problems with veracity of the other parts.

[MadBunny]

but you are proving MY point, albeit unintentionally. God wrote His law on their hearts. It's no shock they sound similar to Christianity.

They reject Christ and your god.  Didn't you say that's the only unforgivable sin?

[Astreja]

I think Astreja meant something along the lines that she couldn't find the words to to adequately express feelings other than disgust and revulsion after reading about those actions. Nor, frankly, can I. Not that I anticipate that to be an unusual reaction amongst caring and sentient individuals.

Exactly what I meant.  I felt anger, helplessness, and that crazy buzzing feeling you get when you know you have to do something but don't know if you can do anything at all.

On the 6 o'clock news we get the sanitized version of the latest inquest into the atrocities, then give ourselves a big Canadian pat on the back for being kinder, gentler, more enlightened, and all that rot.  Instead of starting one big war that rouses people to fight for the defenders, we wage a million small wars that take generations to uncover, and leave the deepest scars where they can't even be seen.  If we didn't know then what was going on then, why should we think we know any better now?  What's happening right now under our very noses, in our own home towns, that only our grandchildren's generation will uncover?

[skeptic54768]

They reject Christ and your god.  Didn't you say that's the only unforgivable sin?

Evidence?

[Astreja]

but you are proving MY point, albeit unintentionally. God wrote His law on their hearts. It's no shock they sound similar to Christianity.

Unfortunately for your hypothesis, all three of the philosophies that I cited -- Buddhism, Daoism and Hinduism -- predate Christianity by a minimum of 500 years.  (Buddhism and Daoism are contemporaries, circa 500 BCE; Hinduism is considerably older.)

Perhaps My elder sister, the Bodhisattva Guan Shi Yin, is the One with the cardiac stencil and marking pen.  Or perhaps it's the Dao itself, personified as the Great Unity.  Or Vishnu, perhaps -- Definitely a caring chap.  Why do you think it's your god?

[skeptic54768]

but you are proving MY point, albeit unintentionally. God wrote His law on their hearts. It's no shock they sound similar to Christianity.

Unfortunately for your hypothesis, all three of the philosophies that I cited -- Buddhism, Daoism and Hinduism -- predate Christianity by a minimum of 500 years.  (Buddhism and Daoism are contemporaries, circa 500 BCE; Hinduism is considerably older.)

Perhaps My elder sister, the Bodhisattva Guan Shi Yin, is the One with the cardiac stencil and marking pen.  Or perhaps it's the Dao itself, personified as the Great Unity.  Or Vishnu, perhaps -- Definitely a caring chap.  Why do you think it's your god?

The Book of Genesis was written in 900 B.C.