Author Topic: MadBunny - why is murder a sin but God ordering destruction of someone not?  (Read 11797 times)

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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Lots of people are raised with love and become killers.
Some people kill their parents just so they can inherit the house and money.

Okay, lets compromise. I'd go back in time and make sure his mom had an abortion. Surely you wouldn't mind that.

By the way, some people love their parents and would never kill their parents just so they can inherit the house and money. I thought you might want to know that. It's only the ones that are really ugly babies though.

In an atheistic world, it would be OK to kill your parents to get the money though. Money would get you places in life. You parents being alive wouldn't get you anywhere.

But since Christians don't care about money and material things, we wouldn't even dream of the idea.

But someone who thought money was all you needed to be successful? Now that would be scary.
Prove they care not for money or material things,you own a computer ,and I am sure you use money....live like Jesus told you then we can talk....but we could not,you would not own a computer
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline Aaron123

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Yes! You're getting it! God does do that with certain babies. Other babies He does not do that with because they wouldn't change.

The ones that change their lives are alive, aren't they? Not dead.

So I take it then, you don't believe in the concept of Free Will.

Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Ocg from these passages it still suggests God has enemies or peoples outside his area of care.... It suggests a god could care less if outsiders live or die

Perhaps it does.  But I am not sure I understand what you are meaning.  Would you mind elaborating on your understanding of this particular Psalm?

Ever curious,

OldChurchGuy
From what I can understand of the passage,this God is only interested in very few,not humanity as a whole?
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Yes! You're getting it! God does do that with certain babies. Other babies He does not do that with because they wouldn't change.

The ones that change their lives are alive, aren't they? Not dead.

So I take it then, you don't believe in the concept of Free Will.
This guy is off the rails
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Offline skeptic54768

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Prove they care not for money or material things,you own a computer ,and I am sure you use money....live like Jesus told you then we can talk....but we could not,you would not own a computer

Please don't be silly. There is a big difference between living a modest lifestyle and being obsessed with money to the point where it consumes you. You can tell the difference between the two.

Don't pretend to be so dense.

Example: A person makes 50,000 a year and is happy with his job and home.

A baseball player makes 10 million a year and says "This is not enough. I got a family to feed." This is nothing but greed and chasing money.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline 12 Monkeys

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like I said live as Jesus commands you then we can talk
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline skeptic54768

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like I said live as Jesus commands you then we can talk

I just told you that Jesus was talking about chasing money. Robinson Cano signed a 240 million dollar contract because he said 175 million from the Yankees wasn't enough to feed his family. Is his family the size of a continent or something? Let him go to Africa and say that 175 million is not enough for his family. I'm sure they would love the guy.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Online ParkingPlaces

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Lots of people are raised with love and become killers.
Some people kill their parents just so they can inherit the house and money.

Okay, lets compromise. I'd go back in time and make sure his mom had an abortion. Surely you wouldn't mind that.

By the way, some people love their parents and would never kill their parents just so they can inherit the house and money. I thought you might want to know that. It's only the ones that are really ugly babies though.

In an atheistic world, it would be OK to kill your parents to get the money though. Money would get you places in life. You parents being alive wouldn't get you anywhere.

But since Christians don't care about money and material things, we wouldn't even dream of the idea.

But someone who thought money was all you needed to be successful? Now that would be scary.

In case you haven't noticed, I'm not in prison for life. Otherwise I wouldn't have access to a computer this evening.

How do you explain that I didn't kill my parents. I've been an atheist since I was 11. If that automatically made me a horrible person, I should have done them in long, long ago. Both are indeed dead, one of a burst aorta and the other from prostate cancer, but I had nothing to do with either death. Sitting next to my father while he did the death rattle for over a day, I was wishing it was okay to put an end to his suffering early, but I knew it wasn't.

You god isn't required for morals. And in fact we are arguing the concept of your god is bad for morals.

By the way, I've never pursued money just for the sake of pursuing money either. If you're so pure, how come you gloat over the concept so jealously?
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Offline skeptic54768

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Lots of people are raised with love and become killers.
Some people kill their parents just so they can inherit the house and money.

Okay, lets compromise. I'd go back in time and make sure his mom had an abortion. Surely you wouldn't mind that.

By the way, some people love their parents and would never kill their parents just so they can inherit the house and money. I thought you might want to know that. It's only the ones that are really ugly babies though.

In an atheistic world, it would be OK to kill your parents to get the money though. Money would get you places in life. You parents being alive wouldn't get you anywhere.

But since Christians don't care about money and material things, we wouldn't even dream of the idea.

But someone who thought money was all you needed to be successful? Now that would be scary.

In case you haven't noticed, I'm not in prison for life. Otherwise I wouldn't have access to a computer this evening.

How do you explain that I didn't kill my parents. I've been an atheist since I was 11. If that automatically made me a horrible person, I should have done them in long, long ago. Both are indeed dead, one of a burst aorta and the other from prostate cancer, but I had nothing to do with either death. Sitting next to my father while he did the death rattle for over a day, I was wishing it was okay to put an end to his suffering early, but I knew it wasn't.

You god isn't required for morals. And in fact we are arguing the concept of your god is bad for morals.

By the way, I've never pursued money just for the sake of pursuing money either. If you're so pure, how come you gloat over the concept so jealously?

Charles Manson is in prison and he has a computer. Some of those inmates live better lives than a nice homeless man. As the old saying goes, "Kill a man, and we'll give you free meals for life!"
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Online ParkingPlaces

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A baseball player makes 10 million a year and says "This is not enough. I got a family to feed." This is nothing but greed and chasing money.

Hey, isn't that the guy who thanks god for the victory at the end of the game?
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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You really need a history lesson Skep,before Columbus and the Band of greedy Christians came along we were doing just fine. Gold,lumber,minerals,silver,copper you Christians love the stuff.

 Up until the early 20's there is a place where I am from called Burnaby narrows,the fish were so thick in that small channel you could walk across them,Christian fisherman have eliminated that. Then again you will just claim they are not "real Christians" and dismiss anything anybody says. It's a simple statement "not really Christians" that eliminates you and your "real Christian" brothers from any blame
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Online ParkingPlaces

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Lots of people are raised with love and become killers.
Some people kill their parents just so they can inherit the house and money.

Okay, lets compromise. I'd go back in time and make sure his mom had an abortion. Surely you wouldn't mind that.

By the way, some people love their parents and would never kill their parents just so they can inherit the house and money. I thought you might want to know that. It's only the ones that are really ugly babies though.

In an atheistic world, it would be OK to kill your parents to get the money though. Money would get you places in life. You parents being alive wouldn't get you anywhere.

But since Christians don't care about money and material things, we wouldn't even dream of the idea.

But someone who thought money was all you needed to be successful? Now that would be scary.

In case you haven't noticed, I'm not in prison for life. Otherwise I wouldn't have access to a computer this evening.

How do you explain that I didn't kill my parents. I've been an atheist since I was 11. If that automatically made me a horrible person, I should have done them in long, long ago. Both are indeed dead, one of a burst aorta and the other from prostate cancer, but I had nothing to do with either death. Sitting next to my father while he did the death rattle for over a day, I was wishing it was okay to put an end to his suffering early, but I knew it wasn't.

You god isn't required for morals. And in fact we are arguing the concept of your god is bad for morals.

By the way, I've never pursued money just for the sake of pursuing money either. If you're so pure, how come you gloat over the concept so jealously?

Charles Manson is in prison and he has a computer. Some of those inmates live better lives than a nice homeless man. As the old saying goes, "Kill a man, and we'll give you free meals for life!"

Okay, you want my phone number? I'm PM you and you can call me. I'm not in prison. I'm an atheist, Very few of us end up there. We're too nice.
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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like I said live as Jesus commands you then we can talk

I just told you that Jesus was talking about chasing money. Robinson Cano signed a 240 million dollar contract because he said 175 million from the Yankees wasn't enough to feed his family. Is his family the size of a continent or something? Let him go to Africa and say that 175 million is not enough for his family. I'm sure they would love the guy.
apples and oranges,what could you live on? I am sure the guy making 15 K thinks the same about the guy making 50K as you do about the ball player The guy making 15 K thinks 50 K is too much,mainly because that's what fox news tells him
« Last Edit: January 02, 2014, 12:24:01 AM by 12 Monkeys »
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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I am sure you think all us Injuns are just lazy alcoholics who live of Government money too eh Skep?
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Online ParkingPlaces

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Crap, I think we scared him off again 12. We should learn to have tact.  ;D

Notice that he never answers any questions related to the issues, but rather comes up with off the wall issues, like people making lots of money.

Strange fella. As long as I'm not in jail and you're not drunk, we still have our credibility.   ;)
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Offline Aaron123

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BTW, when you make statements like "atheists are immoral", that is testable.  You would just need to provide the data that shows that secular-based countries have disproportionally higher rates of crimes than religious countries.  Are you willing and able to do that?

Hey Skep, you got that data?
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline skeptic54768

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I am sure you think all us Injuns are just lazy alcoholics who live of Government money too eh Skep?

Please tell me why it is fair to lump me in with those "Christians?"

You guys always say it's not fair to lump atheists in with Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot, so why not put your money where your mouth is and say you can't lump me in with those "Christians?"
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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like I said live as Jesus commands you then we can talk

I just told you that Jesus was talking about chasing money. Robinson Cano signed a 240 million dollar contract because he said 175 million from the Yankees wasn't enough to feed his family. Is his family the size of a continent or something? Let him go to Africa and say that 175 million is not enough for his family. I'm sure they would love the guy.
apples and oranges,what could you live on? I am sure the guy making 15 K thinks the same about the guy making 50K as you do about the ball player The guy making 15 K thinks 50 K is too much,mainly because that's what fox news tells him

Anybody who can not feed their family on 10 million dollars a year must either have the most morbidly obese family known to man, or be in need of some serious money management counseling.

These athletes live in a fantasy world where they think statements like "I can't feed my family on 10 million a year" earns them sympathy. They can't even see how ridiculous and insulting that statement is.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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Crap, I think we scared him off again 12. We should learn to have tact.  ;D

Notice that he never answers any questions related to the issues, but rather comes up with off the wall issues, like people making lots of money.

Strange fella. As long as I'm not in jail and you're not drunk, we still have our credibility.   ;)

I am not scared off.

I have answered the questions.
It is not my fault if people don't like my answers. But, don't pretend I never answer questions.

I noticed this is the tactic of the internet atheist:

1) Atheists ask theists a question.
2) Theist gives answer.
3) Atheists say theists didn't answer.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Online ParkingPlaces

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I am not scared off.

I have answered the questions.
It is not my fault if people don't like my answers. But, don't pretend I never answer questions.

I noticed this is the tactic of the internet atheist:

1) Atheists ask theists a question.
2) Theist gives answer.
3) Atheists say theists didn't answer.

Let me get this straight. You said if you went back in time, you would kill baby Hitler. I said that I would go back and treat him better so that he would be a nicer person. Your response was that kids who are loved kill all the time, and that lots of sometimes people kill their parents for the inheritance. Yep, that happens. What it has to do with Hitler I don't know. Then you went into a tirade about huge amounts of money and how ballplayers are spoiled. Which you brought up again later, even though none of us said anything about large amounts of money. 12 did mention money, but only in saying that you obviously had enough to buy a computer. Then you said atheists obviously kill all of their parents because they have no morals, and when I said I wasn't in prison because I hadn't killed my parents, you told me that Charles Manson has a computer, which apparently negated my niceness and had me kill off my folks between posts.

Aaron asked you about the statistics showing how much worse we atheists were by showing us the statistics for jailed nonbelievers. You've ignored that. And you also ignored my suggestion that we just abort Hitler instead of kill him in his crib.

You have made sure that the conversation goes all over the place, and concentrated on the irrelevant rather than the relevant. You change the subject, and ignore the subject, and pretend there isn't a subject, more than I can personally believe.

Explain why the baseball player should be discussed more than the thought of aborting Hitler. That would really help your case if you could put it into perspective.
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Offline MadBunny

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Imagine a father who buys his children everything. The kids treat their gifts like crap and break them and say "You'll just buy me a new one dad, so who cares?"

Would the father have no right to be upset and scream at how they are taking things for granted?

Or would the father have a right to teach the kids a lesson?

So imagine how selfish it sounds when people don't care about God's gifts and say things like, "God will just give us more if he's all-powerful! He can make a new Earth for us!"

Tell me something.  If I have a child, and it displeases me... and I kill it.  Have I taught it a lesson?
For sure it won't do (insert here) again, but on the other hand... dead.

What is the penalty for sin Skeptic54768?

Go on, please let me know.
Give a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a night.  Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

Offline MadBunny

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You are supposed to tell the truth. The truth overrides feelings. If you think someone's baby is ugly, you say it if they ask your opinion. It's better to be hated for the truth than loved for a lie. If those people kick you our of their home for being honest, then you don't need friends like them. Besides, you are never alone if you have the Lord in your life.

In my experience, people prefer a "tell it like it is with no BS" person than a wishy washy yes man.

I think that we've already established at some point that you're not a bible literalist.  You don't think the bible is the 'word of god' but rather a bunch of suggestions written a long long time ago for reasons.  Essentially you espouse a particular variation of SPAG, that is not always consistent with the bible, or contemporary Christianity.

Tell me though, how do you handle the concept of sin, and reconciliation?
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Offline OldChurchGuy

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Ocg from these passages it still suggests God has enemies or peoples outside his area of care.... It suggests a god could care less if outsiders live or die

Perhaps it does.  But I am not sure I understand what you are meaning.  Would you mind elaborating on your understanding of this particular Psalm?

Ever curious,

OldChurchGuy
From what I can understand of the passage,this God is only interested in very few,not humanity as a whole?

This Psalm, like most if not all the Psalms, is directed to God, not from God (in my opinion).  The Psalms are usually praising God but this one is petitioning God for revenge because they are (A) captives; (B) being ridiculed by their captors; and (C) carted off to a foreign land. 

The writer may have felt God had only a special interest in them as they were "the chosen people" and I know there are passages where God is cited as saying the Jews are special in His eyes.  So, I see your point. 

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle - Philo of Alexandria

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Offline OldChurchGuy

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OCG, thank you for this response. If you are one who does not believe that the entire bible is "God breathed" (aka - that this God thing is not speaking here) then I have little problem with that (in the sense that it is not authoritative or "from God" and hence I don't care what it says - even though it's still disgusting to me). At such a junction I would then want to discuss what parts of the bible are "inspired of God" and what parts are not - and what method is being used to make that determination. Btw, I readily admit that such a discussion would likely get nowhere with me b/c my standards of evidence are much higher for extraordinary claims of a 'god' speaking through an old book. However, my response (and I suspect most others here who mention it) is directed at those apologists who think the bible is "the inerrant inspired word of God", at which case it is not David speaking here but the alleged "all-loving/good" God. Should such be the case then there is a clear contradiction and I think this is why apologists so badly try to rationalize it away. It is clearly damning to their theology.

with much respect,
median

I would have sworn I responded to this but do not find the response anywhere so will try again. 

First, your kind words are truly appreciated. 

Second, I don't think I've ever been asked what parts of the Bible are "God inspired" and what parts are not and the methodology to determine that.  Frankly, I am not sure I can offer much insight to such a complex question but I am willing to try if you are.

Apologists have a very difficult challenge in defending a literalist view of the Bible in this day and age.  Their predecessors from many centuries back had an easier time as the existence of God was a given.  That basic idea has changed over the last few centuries as science has advanced and explained things.  Regardless, I have never been a fan of what I see as "God-in-a-box" theology.

As always,

OldChurchGuy
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Offline Graybeard

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God demonstrates the power of His judgment. Rahab’s story, set in the midst of the conquest narrative, also demonstrates the power of repentance, faith, and God’s willingness to spare His enemies when they choose to identify with God’s people. Rahab thus enters the NT hall of fame—and faith (Heb 11:31; Jms 2:25).

Christopher Wright, “Is the Old Testament Ethical?,” in The Apologetics Study Bible: Real Questions, Straight Answers, Stronger Faith, ed. Ted Cabal et al. (Nashville, TN: Holman Bible Publishers, 2007), 116–117.
However, Does Christopher Wiright's money-making book address: De:23:3: An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to their tenth generation shall they not enter into the congregation of the LORD for ever:?

Here we have the Moabites who want to go about their daily lives worshipping Chemosh in their own land but who seem to have annoyed Yahweh and thus deserved death, and yet they are unable to become Jewish or worship Yahweh.

Episode 2 of "God inspires Psychopaths to do his Bidding" (Commentary from Easton's Bible Dictionary, verses from KJV)

Jehu, King of Israel.
During the progress of a war against the Syrians, Jehoram, the king of Israel, had returned to Jezreel, with, Ahaziah, king of Judah. The commanders left behind, met in council; and a messenger from Elisha appeared in the camp, and took Jehu from the council, and anointed him king over Israel, (The messenger immediately disappeared (2 Kings 9:5, 6).) The other commanders then proclaimed him king and he went to Jezreel, where, he slew Jehoram,

On entering the city, Jehu commanded the eunuchs of the royal palace to cast down Jezebel into the street, where her mangled body was trodden under foot by the horses. Jehu was now master of Jezreel, and commanded the eunuchs to appear before him with the decapitated heads of all the royal princes of Samaria. These were piled up in two heaps at his gate. At "the shearing-house" (2 Kings 10:12-14) other forty-two connected with the house of Ahab were put to death (2 Kings 10:14).

"He was one of those decisive, terrible, and ambitious, yet prudent, calculating, and passionless men whom God from time to time raises up to change the fate of empires and execute his judgments on the earth."

2Ki:10:9: And it came to pass in the morning, that he went out, and stood, and said to all the people, Ye be righteous: behold, I conspired against my master, and slew him: but who slew all these?
2Ki:10:10: Know now that there shall fall unto the earth nothing of the word of the LORD, which the LORD spake concerning the house of Ahab: for the LORD hath done that which he spake by his servant Elijah.
2Ki:10:11: So Jehu slew all that remained of the house of Ahab in Jezreel, and all his great men, and his kinsfolks, and his priests, until he left him none remaining.
2Ki:10:12: And he arose and departed, and came to Samaria.  And as he was at the shearing house in the way,
2Ki:10:13: Jehu met with the brethren of Ahaziah king of Judah, and said, Who are ye?  And they answered, We are the brethren of Ahaziah; and we go down to salute the children of the king and the children of the queen.
2Ki:10:14: And he said, Take them alive.  And they took them alive, and slew them at the pit of the shearing house, even two and forty men; neither left he any of them.

Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline 12 Monkeys

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I am sure you think all us Injuns are just lazy alcoholics who live of Government money too eh Skep?

Please tell me why it is fair to lump me in with those "Christians?"

You guys always say it's not fair to lump atheists in with Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot, so why not put your money where your mouth is and say you can't lump me in with those "Christians?"
like I said Skep,you don't view these Christians as Christians,so you can separate yourself from their evil actions
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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like I said live as Jesus commands you then we can talk

I just told you that Jesus was talking about chasing money. Robinson Cano signed a 240 million dollar contract because he said 175 million from the Yankees wasn't enough to feed his family. Is his family the size of a continent or something? Let him go to Africa and say that 175 million is not enough for his family. I'm sure they would love the guy.
apples and oranges,what could you live on? I am sure the guy making 15 K thinks the same about the guy making 50K as you do about the ball player The guy making 15 K thinks 50 K is too much,mainly because that's what fox news tells him

Anybody who can not feed their family on 10 million dollars a year must either have the most morbidly obese family known to man, or be in need of some serious money management counseling.

These athletes live in a fantasy world where they think statements like "I can't feed my family on 10 million a year" earns them sympathy. They can't even see how ridiculous and insulting that statement is.
again you ignored the post you stated that 50k is a good round number,I stated that 15 k was low average,...... How much do you need,you can get by on less than 50k to live like Jesus....where does this 50k number come from?
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline Boots

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I am sure you think all us Injuns are just lazy alcoholics who live of Government money too eh Skep?

Please tell me why it is fair to lump me in with those "Christians?"

You guys always say it's not fair to lump atheists in with Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot, so why not put your money where your mouth is and say you can't lump me in with those "Christians?"

The reason is, you brought up the fact that Christians don't worship/obsess over money--a lumped-in characterization YOU put out there.  counterexamples were presented.  Can you answer them?
It's one of the reasons I'm an atheist today.  I decided to take my religion seriously, and that's when it started to fall apart for me.
~jdawg70

Offline MadBunny

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I'm still curious about how genocide and horrible, horrible murder somehow don't qualify against the commandment to not kill.
Personally I'm betting that the context card will get incorrectly pulled out here.


Give a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a night.  Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.