Author Topic: MadBunny - why is murder a sin but God ordering destruction of someone not?  (Read 11818 times)

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Offline median

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Just to make sure we are on the same page, I am only addressing God-commanded genocide as found in the Bible.

The conquest of Canaan must be understood for what it was. This event, rightly, is troubling to sensitive readers. We can’t ignore its horror, but some perspectives can help us evaluate it ethically.

    •      It was a limited event. The conquest narratives describe one particular period of Israel’s long history. Many of the other wars that occur in the OT narrative had no divine sanction, and some were clearly condemned as the actions of proud, greedy kings or military rivals.
    •      We must allow for the exaggerated language of warfare. Israel, like other ancient Near East nations whose documents we possess, had a rhetoric of war that often exceeded reality.
    •      It was an act of God’s justice and punishment on a morally degraded society. The conquest shouldn’t be portrayed as random genocide or ethnic cleansing. The wickedness of Canaanite society was anticipated (Gn 15:16) and described in moral and social terms (Lv 18:24; 20:23; Dt 9:5; 12:29–31). This interpretation is accepted in the NT (e.g., Heb 11:31 speaks of the Canaanites as “those who disobeyed,” implying awareness of choosing to persist in sin—as the Bible affirms of all human beings). There’s a huge moral difference between violence that’s arbitrary and violence inflicted within the moral framework of punishment (this is true in human society as much as in divine perspective). It doesn’t make it “nice,” but it changes the ethical evaluation significantly.
    •      God threatened to do the same to Israel—and He did. In the conquest God used Israel as the agent of punishment on the Canaanites. God warned Israel that if they behaved like the Canaanites, He would treat them as His enemy in the same way and inflict the same punishment on them using other nations (Lv 26:17; Dt 28:25–68). In the course of Israel’s long history in OT times, God repeatedly did so, demonstrating His moral consistency in international justice. It wasn’t a matter of favoritism. If anything, Israel’s status as God’s chosen people, the OT argues, exposed them more to God’s judgment and historical punishment than the Canaanites who experienced the conquest. Those choosing to live as God’s enemies eventually face God’s judgment.
    •      The conquest anticipated the final judgment. Like the stories of Sodom and Gomorrah and the flood, the story of Canaan’s conquest stands in Scripture as a prototypical narrative, or one that foreshadows what is to come. Scripture affirms that ultimately, in the final judgment, the wicked will face the awful reality of God’s wrath through exclusion, punishment, and destruction. Then God’s ethical justice will finally be vindicated. But at certain points in history, such as during the conquest period, God demonstrates the power of His judgment. Rahab’s story, set in the midst of the conquest narrative, also demonstrates the power of repentance, faith, and God’s willingness to spare His enemies when they choose to identify with God’s people. Rahab thus enters the NT hall of fame—and faith (Heb 11:31; Jms 2:25).

Christopher Wright, “Is the Old Testament Ethical?,” in The Apologetics Study Bible: Real Questions, Straight Answers, Stronger Faith, ed. Ted Cabal et al. (Nashville, TN: Holman Bible Publishers, 2007), 116–117.

See also this from Paul Copan:  http://enrichmentjournal.ag.org/201004/201004_138_canannites.cfm

I'm appalled that you would (for even one second) find it morally acceptable for ANY being, anywhere, to command the slaying of women, children, toddlers, and infants in the womb (let alone anyone at all for that matter) and be OK with the commanded to go through with it. And you think this is loving? You are either a liar or a hypocrite.

1) A limited event doesn't make it any less immoral and monstrous - commanded and endorsed by the "loving" god you say you worship. Astonishing that you won't see this contradiction.
2) So you admit that your God "exaggerated" in the bible, since he allegedly "breathed" it? And yet you think God cannot lie (Heb 6, Tit 1)? This is just more intellectual hypocrisy and spin to save your assumed theology. Why are you here discussing these things with us if you are completely closed-off to admitting when you are in error?
3) "Justice" means men ripping open the wombs of women and tearing out their babies (Hosea 13)?? It means cutting open children with a sword?? You have sacrificed your own moral sense to an invisible being you think is real and who calls you to accept, and/or do, horrific acts to children in spite of your own moral sense. You and this Wright fellow absolutely disgust me.
4) Threats are nothing more than bullying. How childish. Such is what we would expect from men, not a perfect being. Is that your "loving" God? Somehow you think this being is "all-powerful" but yet he can find no other way? Your credulity and gullibility are astonishing (no different than the Muslims we debate with). Do you threaten your kids like this alleged God when they rebel or do you instruct? Do you stone your children when they rebel too (Duet 21)? You are more moral than these men who wrote these vile books and just haven't realized it yet.
5) Yes, those "wicked" infants suffered under God's wrath when he commanded them to be slaughtered and ripped from their mother's womb and told his "chosen people" to be happy about it (Psalm 137:9). We can get into these alleged "prophesies" (which are not prophesies at all) later, but for now I'm going to go vomit at how disgusted I am by your attempts to rationalize these writings.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2014, 05:49:46 PM by median »
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Offline carlosm7

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Your dogs are your property, but it's still illegal to force them to kill each other.
God can not be required to observe our laws.

What's your point?
Man laws are irrelevant to this discussion, also I was thinking like a house or a car, not animal cruelty.

We weren't discussing whether or not god has to follow it's own laws.  It's obvious that it doesn't.
What we're discussing is the penalty for breaking one of gods laws.  Commonly known as 'sin'.

Do you know what that penalty is?
So the discussion is no longer "why is murder a sin but God ordering destruction of someone not?"...

Since I do not believe on any of that anyway, I do not pay any attention to what the penalties for sinning are, so I am not sure: hell?
« Last Edit: January 01, 2014, 05:56:11 PM by carlosm7 »
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Offline OldChurchGuy

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Just to make sure we are on the same page, I am only addressing God-commanded genocide as found in the Bible.

The conquest of Canaan must be understood for what it was. This event, rightly, is troubling to sensitive readers. We can’t ignore its horror, but some perspectives can help us evaluate it ethically.

    •      It was a limited event. The conquest narratives describe one particular period of Israel’s long history. Many of the other wars that occur in the OT narrative had no divine sanction, and some were clearly condemned as the actions of proud, greedy kings or military rivals.
    •      We must allow for the exaggerated language of warfare. Israel, like other ancient Near East nations whose documents we possess, had a rhetoric of war that often exceeded reality.
    •      It was an act of God’s justice and punishment on a morally degraded society. The conquest shouldn’t be portrayed as random genocide or ethnic cleansing. The wickedness of Canaanite society was anticipated (Gn 15:16) and described in moral and social terms (Lv 18:24; 20:23; Dt 9:5; 12:29–31). This interpretation is accepted in the NT (e.g., Heb 11:31 speaks of the Canaanites as “those who disobeyed,” implying awareness of choosing to persist in sin—as the Bible affirms of all human beings). There’s a huge moral difference between violence that’s arbitrary and violence inflicted within the moral framework of punishment (this is true in human society as much as in divine perspective). It doesn’t make it “nice,” but it changes the ethical evaluation significantly.
    •      God threatened to do the same to Israel—and He did. In the conquest God used Israel as the agent of punishment on the Canaanites. God warned Israel that if they behaved like the Canaanites, He would treat them as His enemy in the same way and inflict the same punishment on them using other nations (Lv 26:17; Dt 28:25–68). In the course of Israel’s long history in OT times, God repeatedly did so, demonstrating His moral consistency in international justice. It wasn’t a matter of favoritism. If anything, Israel’s status as God’s chosen people, the OT argues, exposed them more to God’s judgment and historical punishment than the Canaanites who experienced the conquest. Those choosing to live as God’s enemies eventually face God’s judgment.
    •      The conquest anticipated the final judgment. Like the stories of Sodom and Gomorrah and the flood, the story of Canaan’s conquest stands in Scripture as a prototypical narrative, or one that foreshadows what is to come. Scripture affirms that ultimately, in the final judgment, the wicked will face the awful reality of God’s wrath through exclusion, punishment, and destruction. Then God’s ethical justice will finally be vindicated. But at certain points in history, such as during the conquest period, God demonstrates the power of His judgment. Rahab’s story, set in the midst of the conquest narrative, also demonstrates the power of repentance, faith, and God’s willingness to spare His enemies when they choose to identify with God’s people. Rahab thus enters the NT hall of fame—and faith (Heb 11:31; Jms 2:25).

Christopher Wright, “Is the Old Testament Ethical?,” in The Apologetics Study Bible: Real Questions, Straight Answers, Stronger Faith, ed. Ted Cabal et al. (Nashville, TN: Holman Bible Publishers, 2007), 116–117.

See also this from Paul Copan:  http://enrichmentjournal.ag.org/201004/201004_138_canannites.cfm

I'm appalled that you would (for even one second) find it morally acceptable for ANY being, anywhere, to command the slaying of women, children, toddlers, and infants in the womb (let alone anyone at all for that matter) and be OK with the commanded to go through with it. And you think this is loving? You are either a liar or a hypocrite.

1) A limited event doesn't make it any less immoral and monstrous - commanded and endorsed by the "loving" god you say you worship. Astonishing that you won't see this contradiction.
2) So you admit that your God "exaggerated" in the bible, since he allegedly "breathed" it? And yet you think God cannot lie (Heb 6, Tit 1)? This is just more intellectual hypocrisy and spin to save your assumed theology. Why are you here discussing these things with us if you are completely closed-off to admitting when you are in error?
3) "Justice" means men ripping open the wombs of women and tearing out their babies (Hosea 13)?? It means cutting open children with a sword?? You have sacrificed your own moral sense to an invisible being you think is real and who calls you to accept, and/or do, horrific acts to children in spite of your own moral sense. You and this Wright fellow absolutely disgust me.
4) Threats are nothing more than bullying. How childish. Such is what we would expect from men, not a perfect being. Is that your "loving" God? Somehow you think this being is "all-powerful" but yet he can find no other way? Your credulity and gullibility are astonishing (no different than the Muslims we debate with). Do you threaten your kids like this alleged God when they rebel or do you instruct? Do you stone your children when they rebel too (Duet 21)? You are more moral than these men who wrote these vile books and just haven't realized it yet.
5) Yes, those "wicked" infants suffered under God's wrath when he commanded them to be slaughtered and ripped from their mother's womb and told his "chosen people" to be happy about it (Psalm 137:9). We can get into these alleged "prophesies" (which are not prophesies at all) later, but for now I'm going to go vomit at how disgusted I am by your attempts to rationalize these writings.

Will all due respect, Psalm 137:9 seems to be a favorite on this website.  And the verse is very dark ("Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.").  But, like so many verse snippets, there is more.  The entire Psalm reads:



1 By the rivers of Babylon we sat and wept when we remembered Zion.

2 There on the poplars we hung our harps,

3 for there our captors asked us for songs, our tormentors demanded songs of joy; they said, “Sing us one of the songs of Zion!”

4 How can we sing the songs of the Lord while in a foreign land?

5 If I forget you, Jerusalem, may my right hand forget its skill.

6 May my tongue cling to the roof of my mouth if I do not remember you, if I do not consider Jerusalem my highest joy.

7 Remember, Lord, what the Edomites did on the day Jerusalem fell.  “Tear it down,” they cried, “tear it down to its foundations!”

8 Daughter Babylon, doomed to destruction, happy is the one who repays you according to what you have done to us.

9 Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.

It is my understanding this Psalm is a call to God for revenge.  The Babylonians had conquered the Southern Kingdom (made up of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin) which was quite a surprise for this remaining remnant of the chosen people.  The Southern Kingdom leaders were taken back to Babylon and felt humiliated by their captors.  So the writer of this Psalm tried to come up with the worst possible description of vengeance he could imagine.  What could be worse than wanting your captor's children killed? 

While the Persians did eventually conquer the Babylonians, there is no record (to the best of my limited knowledge) that they dashed any Babylonian infants against any rocks. 

End of lecture.

OldChurchGuy
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Offline median

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OCG, thank you for this response. If you are one who does not believe that the entire bible is "God breathed" (aka - that this God thing is not speaking here) then I have little problem with that (in the sense that it is not authoritative or "from God" and hence I don't care what it says - even though it's still disgusting to me). At such a junction I would then want to discuss what parts of the bible are "inspired of God" and what parts are not - and what method is being used to make that determination. Btw, I readily admit that such a discussion would likely get nowhere with me b/c my standards of evidence are much higher for extraordinary claims of a 'god' speaking through an old book. However, my response (and I suspect most others here who mention it) is directed at those apologists who think the bible is "the inerrant inspired word of God", at which case it is not David speaking here but the alleged "all-loving/good" God. Should such be the case then there is a clear contradiction and I think this is why apologists so badly try to rationalize it away. It is clearly damning to their theology.

with much respect,
median
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Ocg from these passages it still suggests God has enemies or peoples outside his area of care.... It suggests a god could care less if outsiders live or die
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline Backspace

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One point regarding the commandment against killing from Ex 20: Upon returning from the mountain, Moses smashed the tablets and proceeded to organize the slaughter of 3,000 men, women, and children of his own tribe.  Perhaps that's why the commandment against killing is conspicuously absent from the second set of tablets ("The 10 Commandments") from Ex 34.

While the commandment against killing is brought up repeatedly later in the OT, technically (as mentioned above), that commandment was not on the tablets placed in the Ark of the Covenant.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2014, 09:00:41 PM by Backspace »
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Offline MadBunny

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So the discussion is no longer "why is murder a sin but God ordering destruction of someone not?"...

Since I do not believe on any of that anyway, I do not pay any attention to what the penalties for sinning are, so I am not sure: hell?

The discussion has always been what the penalty is for contradictory sins.  If the god orders you to kill somebody and you don't do it, you're sinning..  If you kill people then you're sinning since it's against that gods rules to kill people.  Hellbound each way or do you get a special 'get out of hell' card if you find the right bible verse?

Also, whether or not there are 'gray areas' to sin.  Telling a lie is a sin... but what if you tell somebody they have a pretty baby when it's just kind of average looking?  There is only one penalty, and that's hell.  Is it just that you burn in hell for all eternity for telling somebody they have a cute baby?  What if you think you're telling the truth but actually just repeating a lie? Still in the lake of fire?

What about all the reconciliation stuff with Jesus?  Does that erase all the earlier commandments? (depends on who you ask.)

So Gzusfreke was about to tell us how a person can commit genocide and not sin in the process.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2014, 09:11:12 PM by MadBunny »
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Offline skeptic54768

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The unforgivable sin is rejection of Jesus Christ, Our Lord.
Everything else can be forgiven whether it be a killing spree or stealing a nickel from a register.

I apologize to the OP and the Madbunny for going off topic here, but I am so shocked by this statement. 

So your god does not really care about sin or evil or even following his complex and confusing rules?  He doesn't care which human beings are good, and which are evil?   

ALL he wants is to be worshipped?

That is it? 

He does not sound like a very nice god.  WHY would you worship him if he stands for nothing but his own adoration?

Imagine a father who buys his children everything. The kids treat their gifts like crap and break them and say "You'll just buy me a new one dad, so who cares?"

Would the father have no right to be upset and scream at how they are taking things for granted?

Or would the father have a right to teach the kids a lesson?

So imagine how selfish it sounds when people don't care about God's gifts and say things like, "God will just give us more if he's all-powerful! He can make a new Earth for us!"
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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I'm appalled that you would (for even one second) find it morally acceptable for ANY being, anywhere, to command the slaying of women, children, toddlers, and infants in the womb (let alone anyone at all for that matter) and be OK with the commanded to go through with it. And you think this is loving? You are either a liar or a hypocrite.

Think logically about what you are saying here. I have heard many people say they would kill baby hitler in his crib if they could go back in time. Is that evil? No, because you would know what Hitler would become.

Same thing with God. God knew the babies would grow up being taught the evil ways of their parents and grow up to be evil so God took them out beforehand. How is that different from killing baby hitler?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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So the discussion is no longer "why is murder a sin but God ordering destruction of someone not?"...

Since I do not believe on any of that anyway, I do not pay any attention to what the penalties for sinning are, so I am not sure: hell?

The discussion has always been what the penalty is for contradictory sins.  If the god orders you to kill somebody and you don't do it, you're sinning..  If you kill people then you're sinning since it's against that gods rules to kill people.  Hellbound each way or do you get a special 'get out of hell' card if you find the right bible verse?

Also, whether or not there are 'gray areas' to sin.  Telling a lie is a sin... but what if you tell somebody they have a pretty baby when it's just kind of average looking?  There is only one penalty, and that's hell.  Is it just that you burn in hell for all eternity for telling somebody they have a cute baby?  What if you think you're telling the truth but actually just repeating a lie? Still in the lake of fire?

What about all the reconciliation stuff with Jesus?  Does that erase all the earlier commandments? (depends on who you ask.)

So Gzusfreke was about to tell us how a person can commit genocide and not sin in the process.

You are supposed to tell the truth. The truth overrides feelings. If you think someone's baby is ugly, you say it if they ask your opinion. It's better to be hated for the truth than loved for a lie. If those people kick you our of their home for being honest, then you don't need friends like them. Besides, you are never alone if you have the Lord in your life.

In my experience, people prefer a "tell it like it is with no BS" person than a wishy washy yes man.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline 12 Monkeys

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I'm appalled that you would (for even one second) find it morally acceptable for ANY being, anywhere, to command the slaying of women, children, toddlers, and infants in the womb (let alone anyone at all for that matter) and be OK with the commanded to go through with it. And you think this is loving? You are either a liar or a hypocrite.

Think logically about what you are saying here. I have heard many people say they would kill baby hitler in his crib if they could go back in time. Is that evil? No, because you would know what Hitler would become.

Same thing with God. God knew the babies would grow up being taught the evil ways of their parents and grow up to be evil so God took them out beforehand. How is that different from killing baby hitler?
I would go further back and kill Columbus,the Queen of England,King of Spain.....these fuckers made Hitler look like a fucking pussy
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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So the discussion is no longer "why is murder a sin but God ordering destruction of someone not?"...

Since I do not believe on any of that anyway, I do not pay any attention to what the penalties for sinning are, so I am not sure: hell?

The discussion has always been what the penalty is for contradictory sins.  If the god orders you to kill somebody and you don't do it, you're sinning..  If you kill people then you're sinning since it's against that gods rules to kill people.  Hellbound each way or do you get a special 'get out of hell' card if you find the right bible verse?

Also, whether or not there are 'gray areas' to sin.  Telling a lie is a sin... but what if you tell somebody they have a pretty baby when it's just kind of average looking?  There is only one penalty, and that's hell.  Is it just that you burn in hell for all eternity for telling somebody they have a cute baby?  What if you think you're telling the truth but actually just repeating a lie? Still in the lake of fire?

What about all the reconciliation stuff with Jesus?  Does that erase all the earlier commandments? (depends on who you ask.)

So Gzusfreke was about to tell us how a person can commit genocide and not sin in the process.
MadBunny you wont get an answer,just wishy washy crap comparing people to spoiled rich kids
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline 12 Monkeys

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I'm appalled that you would (for even one second) find it morally acceptable for ANY being, anywhere, to command the slaying of women, children, toddlers, and infants in the womb (let alone anyone at all for that matter) and be OK with the commanded to go through with it. And you think this is loving? You are either a liar or a hypocrite.

Think logically about what you are saying here. I have heard many people say they would kill baby hitler in his crib if they could go back in time. Is that evil? No, because you would know what Hitler would become.

Same thing with God. God knew the babies would grow up being taught the evil ways of their parents and grow up to be evil so God took them out beforehand. How is that different from killing baby hitler?
Why did God let baby Hitler live AND survive WW1?
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Online ParkingPlaces

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The unforgivable sin is rejection of Jesus Christ, Our Lord.
Everything else can be forgiven whether it be a killing spree or stealing a nickel from a register.

I apologize to the OP and the Madbunny for going off topic here, but I am so shocked by this statement. 

So your god does not really care about sin or evil or even following his complex and confusing rules?  He doesn't care which human beings are good, and which are evil?   

ALL he wants is to be worshipped?

That is it? 

He does not sound like a very nice god.  WHY would you worship him if he stands for nothing but his own adoration?

Imagine a father who buys his children everything. The kids treat their gifts like crap and break them and say "You'll just buy me a new one dad, so who cares?"

Would the father have no right to be upset and scream at how they are taking things for granted?

Or would the father have a right to teach the kids a lesson?

So imagine how selfish it sounds when people don't care about God's gifts and say things like, "God will just give us more if he's all-powerful! He can make a new Earth for us!"

Our quarrel isn't with a father taking his responsibility seriously, and taking the time to raise his children right, with values that will lead them in the right direction.

What we're not able to accept is a father that would skewer his kids and put them on the gas grill because they stole their first cookie.

(And by the way, back in the 70's, when the environmental movement began to take hold, a man of god, a minister of one sort or another, seriously asked why we were so concerned about using up the planet, because if we did God would just make us another one. I still contend that you guys need to get together and figure out what's going on before trying to pass the good news on to the rest of us.)
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Online ParkingPlaces

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I'm appalled that you would (for even one second) find it morally acceptable for ANY being, anywhere, to command the slaying of women, children, toddlers, and infants in the womb (let alone anyone at all for that matter) and be OK with the commanded to go through with it. And you think this is loving? You are either a liar or a hypocrite.

Think logically about what you are saying here. I have heard many people say they would kill baby hitler in his crib if they could go back in time. Is that evil? No, because you would know what Hitler would become.

Same thing with God. God knew the babies would grow up being taught the evil ways of their parents and grow up to be evil so God took them out beforehand. How is that different from killing baby hitler?

As a genuinely nice guy, I wouldn't kill baby Hitler. I've said this before on the site. If I could go back in time and change things. I would see that he was raised with love and compassion so that he wouldn't turn into a monster. That part wasn't a forgone conclusion the day he was born.
Jesus, the cracker flavored treat!

Offline OldChurchGuy

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Ocg from these passages it still suggests God has enemies or peoples outside his area of care.... It suggests a god could care less if outsiders live or die

Perhaps it does.  But I am not sure I understand what you are meaning.  Would you mind elaborating on your understanding of this particular Psalm?

Ever curious,

OldChurchGuy
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Offline skeptic54768

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I'm appalled that you would (for even one second) find it morally acceptable for ANY being, anywhere, to command the slaying of women, children, toddlers, and infants in the womb (let alone anyone at all for that matter) and be OK with the commanded to go through with it. And you think this is loving? You are either a liar or a hypocrite.

Think logically about what you are saying here. I have heard many people say they would kill baby hitler in his crib if they could go back in time. Is that evil? No, because you would know what Hitler would become.

Same thing with God. God knew the babies would grow up being taught the evil ways of their parents and grow up to be evil so God took them out beforehand. How is that different from killing baby hitler?

As a genuinely nice guy, I wouldn't kill baby Hitler. I've said this before on the site. If I could go back in time and change things. I would see that he was raised with love and compassion so that he wouldn't turn into a monster. That part wasn't a forgone conclusion the day he was born.

Lots of people are raised with love and become killers.
Some people kill their parents just so they can inherit the house and money.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

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You are supposed to tell the truth. The truth overrides feelings. If you think someone's baby is ugly, you say it if they ask your opinion. It's better to be hated for the truth than loved for a lie. If those people kick you our of their home for being honest, then you don't need friends like them. Besides, you are never alone if you have the Lord in your life.

In my experience, people prefer a "tell it like it is with no BS" person than a wishy washy yes man.

Man, I'd love to see how many scars you have on your body from being so blatantly honest. Does the part where you're lying to yourself when you think you have all the answers count against your sin total, or are you immune.

And where in the bible are we not allowed to have tact? Did you go up to your second grade teacher and tell her how ugly she was? Do you tell old people they smell funny? Do you stand up in church, point at the little old lady in the next pew and say "She's the one who just farted?"

If telling a person with a less than movie star quality kid that their baby is ugly is going to get me into hell, I'd rather go there than be a total ass. Because I'm not good enough to maintain that standard for my whole life. And I don't admire those of you who can.
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Offline skeptic54768

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I'm appalled that you would (for even one second) find it morally acceptable for ANY being, anywhere, to command the slaying of women, children, toddlers, and infants in the womb (let alone anyone at all for that matter) and be OK with the commanded to go through with it. And you think this is loving? You are either a liar or a hypocrite.

Think logically about what you are saying here. I have heard many people say they would kill baby hitler in his crib if they could go back in time. Is that evil? No, because you would know what Hitler would become.

Same thing with God. God knew the babies would grow up being taught the evil ways of their parents and grow up to be evil so God took them out beforehand. How is that different from killing baby hitler?
I would go further back and kill Columbus,the Queen of England,King of Spain.....these fuckers made Hitler look like a fucking pussy

Be careful what you wish for. Killing those people might prevent your lifestyle that you love today.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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You are supposed to tell the truth. The truth overrides feelings. If you think someone's baby is ugly, you say it if they ask your opinion. It's better to be hated for the truth than loved for a lie. If those people kick you our of their home for being honest, then you don't need friends like them. Besides, you are never alone if you have the Lord in your life.

In my experience, people prefer a "tell it like it is with no BS" person than a wishy washy yes man.

Man, I'd love to see how many scars you have on your body from being so blatantly honest. Does the part where you're lying to yourself when you think you have all the answers count against your sin total, or are you immune.

And where in the bible are we not allowed to have tact? Did you go up to your second grade teacher and tell her how ugly she was? Do you tell old people they smell funny? Do you stand up in church, point at the little old lady in the next pew and say "She's the one who just farted?"

If telling a person with a less than movie star quality kid that their baby is ugly is going to get me into hell, I'd rather go there than be a total ass. Because I'm not good enough to maintain that standard for my whole life. And I don't admire those of you who can.

You're not understanding. You're just looking to have a rebuttal for anything I say. That's not an honest way to have a discussion. You are supposed to LISTEN to the other person, not just have an alarm flashing in your head going "How can I get him? How can I get him?"

I do not just say things out loud for no reason. If my 2nd grade teacher said, "Do you think I'm ugly?" and I thought she was ugly, i would answer with a "Yes." I'm not just going to point and say, "You are UG-LEEEEE!"

Please think first.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

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Lots of people are raised with love and become killers.
Some people kill their parents just so they can inherit the house and money.

Okay, lets compromise. I'd go back in time and make sure his mom had an abortion. Surely you wouldn't mind that.

By the way, some people love their parents and would never kill their parents just so they can inherit the house and money. I thought you might want to know that. It's only the ones that are really ugly babies though.
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I'm appalled that you would (for even one second) find it morally acceptable for ANY being, anywhere, to command the slaying of women, children, toddlers, and infants in the womb (let alone anyone at all for that matter) and be OK with the commanded to go through with it. And you think this is loving? You are either a liar or a hypocrite.

Think logically about what you are saying here. I have heard many people say they would kill baby hitler in his crib if they could go back in time. Is that evil? No, because you would know what Hitler would become.

Same thing with God. God knew the babies would grow up being taught the evil ways of their parents and grow up to be evil so God took them out beforehand. How is that different from killing baby hitler?
I would go further back and kill Columbus,the Queen of England,King of Spain.....these fuckers made Hitler look like a fucking pussy

Be careful what you wish for. Killing those people might prevent your lifestyle that you love today.

I'll let you handle this one, 12.  :P
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Quote
Man, I'd love to see how many scars you have on your body from being so blatantly honest. Does the part where you're lying to yourself when you think you have all the answers count against your sin total, or are you immune.

And where in the bible are we not allowed to have tact? Did you go up to your second grade teacher and tell her how ugly she was? Do you tell old people they smell funny? Do you stand up in church, point at the little old lady in the next pew and say "She's the one who just farted?"

If telling a person with a less than movie star quality kid that their baby is ugly is going to get me into hell, I'd rather go there than be a total ass. Because I'm not good enough to maintain that standard for my whole life. And I don't admire those of you who can.

You're not understanding. You're just looking to have a rebuttal for anything I say. That's not an honest way to have a discussion. You are supposed to LISTEN to the other person, not just have an alarm flashing in your head going "How can I get him? How can I get him?"

I do not just say things out loud for no reason. If my 2nd grade teacher said, "Do you think I'm ugly?" and I thought she was ugly, i would answer with a "Yes." I'm not just going to point and say, "You are UG-LEEEEE!"

Please think first.

So you're only honest when you're put on the spot. Got it.
Jesus, the cracker flavored treat!

Offline skeptic54768

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Lots of people are raised with love and become killers.
Some people kill their parents just so they can inherit the house and money.

Okay, lets compromise. I'd go back in time and make sure his mom had an abortion. Surely you wouldn't mind that.

By the way, some people love their parents and would never kill their parents just so they can inherit the house and money. I thought you might want to know that. It's only the ones that are really ugly babies though.

In an atheistic world, it would be OK to kill your parents to get the money though. Money would get you places in life. You parents being alive wouldn't get you anywhere.

But since Christians don't care about money and material things, we wouldn't even dream of the idea.

But someone who thought money was all you needed to be successful? Now that would be scary.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

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Think logically about what you are saying here. I have heard many people say they would kill baby hitler in his crib if they could go back in time. Is that evil? No, because you would know what Hitler would become.

Same thing with God. God knew the babies would grow up being taught the evil ways of their parents and grow up to be evil so God took them out beforehand. How is that different from killing baby hitler?

So god kills people if he knows that they'll grow up to be evil.  So much for the idea of Free Will.  He gave no opportunity for them to change their ways. 

Why kill at all?  Why not intervene so that those babies grow up to be kind and loving people?  For that matter, why not go a step further, and raise their parents to be loving, so there is no "evil ways of their parents".  Surely a god-being could do better than "kill 'em all".
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline skeptic54768

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So you're only honest when you're put on the spot. Got it.

Because it makes no sense to just randomly spout things like that. I don't care if someone is ugly, nor should anyone else. That's how God made them. God probably gave them a different quality that makes up for the ugliness. So just pointing at someone and saying, "you're ugly" is meaningless and stupid on its own.

But if someone asks my opinion, I tell them.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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Think logically about what you are saying here. I have heard many people say they would kill baby hitler in his crib if they could go back in time. Is that evil? No, because you would know what Hitler would become.

Same thing with God. God knew the babies would grow up being taught the evil ways of their parents and grow up to be evil so God took them out beforehand. How is that different from killing baby hitler?

So god kills people if he knows that they'll grow up to be evil.  So much for the idea of Free Will.  He gave no opportunity for them to change their ways. 

Why kill at all?  Why not intervene so that those babies grow up to be kind and loving people?  For that matter, why not go a step further, and raise their parents to be loving, so there is no "evil ways of their parents".  Surely a god-being could do better than "kill 'em all".

Yes! You're getting it! God does do that with certain babies. Other babies He does not do that with because they wouldn't change.

The ones that change their lives are alive, aren't they? Not dead.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

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In an atheistic world, it would be OK to kill your parents to get the money though. Money would get you places in life. You parents being alive wouldn't get you anywhere.

Only in your strawman fantasy world would you see this happening.

BTW, when you make statements like "atheists are immoral", that is testable.  You would just need to provide the data that shows that secular-based countries have disproportionally higher rates of crimes than religious countries.  Are you willing and able to do that?
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

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I'm appalled that you would (for even one second) find it morally acceptable for ANY being, anywhere, to command the slaying of women, children, toddlers, and infants in the womb (let alone anyone at all for that matter) and be OK with the commanded to go through with it. And you think this is loving? You are either a liar or a hypocrite.

Think logically about what you are saying here. I have heard many people say they would kill baby hitler in his crib if they could go back in time. Is that evil? No, because you would know what Hitler would become.

Same thing with God. God knew the babies would grow up being taught the evil ways of their parents and grow up to be evil so God took them out beforehand. How is that different from killing baby hitler?
I would go further back and kill Columbus,the Queen of England,King of Spain.....these fuckers made Hitler look like a fucking pussy

Be careful what you wish for. Killing those people might prevent your lifestyle that you love today.
may have also saved the 90% of the Indigenous population they killed
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)