Author Topic: MadBunny - why is murder a sin but God ordering destruction of someone not?  (Read 10243 times)

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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: MadBunny - why is murder a sin but God ordering destruction of someone not?
« Reply #174 on: January 05, 2014, 01:11:57 PM »

There is no evidence that people are born gay though. They can't find the gay gene. This means it's in the soul.
So, if you can't find something, it is in the soul? I'm interested in how this has been shown to be true.

You may like to read this: "Left-Handedness in Twins: Genes or Environment?"
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0010945296800050 It would appear that left-handedness is not genetic: So, all those left-handed people are just doing it to annoy right-handers and demanding special rights like left-handed can-openers, etc!

Skeptic: I note that you just say the first thing that comes into your head without any thought at all. Have you always been like that? I mean, is it "in your soul"? And if so, can you change it?

if God had said, "Thou shalt go forth and write right-handed," then being left-handed would be a sin.

It's not our fault that God said homosexuality is a sin. if you guys have a problem, take it up with God. You can't shoot the messengers. It's nonsensical. Sheesh.

Think about it. If you guys created humans and wanted them to reproduce, why would you be happy if some of them are gay?

Spare the whole "other animals are gay in nature!" crap. Animals rape and kill in nature and we don't legalize that. So, this argument is bogus.

Do you know how strange it sounds to an atheist when a theist wonders why we don't follow his god's rules? Don't you understand that we disagree, not only about the words in the bible, but also about the existence of your big guy in the first place. And his non-existence means that points in the bible may be fodder for arguments, but they have absolutely no authority. They aren't about anything real. They ignore too much human nature, current social needs, requirements for a just society and common sense. That isn't the the best combination available.

Since we know he doesn't exist, nothing attributed to him is relevant. Other than the fact that we're trying to ward off the ridiculous notions contained in your book. People exist, and morals exist, and kindness and love and caring exist, sadly along with some bad things. But your god doesn't exist, so for you to keep harping on and on about his rules and wondering why they don't impress us is just plain strange.

You are certainly permitted to disagree with us, but don't try to force your ideas about morality and such down our throat as givens and wonder why we argue with you.

P.S. Yes, christians did make up the fact that homosexuality is a sin. They also made up the fact that snakes eat dirt, bats are birds, that to breed a striped goat, you mate the parents in front of a striped stick, and other silly things. The bible doesn't contain a single solitary "rule" that we need to adhere to. Should we choose to agree about the "thou shalt not kill" thing, that is a pleasant coincidence.
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Offline median

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Re: MadBunny - why is murder a sin but God ordering destruction of someone not?
« Reply #175 on: January 05, 2014, 01:23:17 PM »

if God had said, "Thou shalt go forth and write right-handed," then being left-handed would be a sin.

It's not our fault that God said homosexuality is a sin. if you guys have a problem, take it up with God. You can't shoot the messengers. It's nonsensical. Sheesh.

Think about it. If you guys created humans and wanted them to reproduce, why would you be happy if some of them are gay?

Spare the whole "other animals are gay in nature!" crap. Animals rape and kill in nature and we don't legalize that. So, this argument is bogus.

The problem is, I "God" didn't write it. MEN DID. You yourself even admit this, but you add something EXTRA on the top (i.e. - you think it was "inspired of God"). But of course, just like all of the other religions, you haven't demonstrated that. You just keep ASSERTING IT - over and over. FAIL.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: MadBunny - why is murder a sin but God ordering destruction of someone not?
« Reply #176 on: January 05, 2014, 01:38:54 PM »
Do you know how strange it sounds to an atheist when a theist wonders why we don't follow his god's rules? Don't you understand that we disagree, not only about the words in the bible, but also about the existence of your big guy in the first place. And his non-existence means that points in the bible may be fodder for arguments, but they have absolutely no authority. They aren't about anything real. They ignore too much human nature, current social needs, requirements for a just society and common sense. That isn't the the best combination available.
Seconded.  It doesn't matter that you believe your god made life, the universe, and everything.  To atheists and many theists, your god is imaginary and has no impact at all on anything.  To many other theists, your god is a demon, the same way you feel about any deity not your own, and should not be heeded or obeyed (indeed, they should be opposed as much as possible.  And there are even theists who allow that your god exists, alongside many other gods, and thus deserves no special preferences or pride of place.  What makes you think that you're right and they're not?  You don't have any real evidence, just stuff from an old book that you've interpreted to suit what you're already predisposed to believe, and maybe some subjective experiences.  So far, you've given us no reason to consider you any different from any other theist who comes here with their claims and assertions.

Offline MadBunny

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Re: MadBunny - why is murder a sin but God ordering destruction of someone not?
« Reply #177 on: January 05, 2014, 01:52:27 PM »
There is no evidence that people are born gay though. They can't find the gay gene. This means it's in the soul.

Skin color and eye color can not be compared to who you choose to sleep with. I can go out and find a guy to have sex if I wanted to, but I don't want to. It IS a choice no matter what anyone says.

So at what age did you choose to become a heterosexual?
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Offline MadBunny

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Re: MadBunny - why is murder a sin but God ordering destruction of someone not?
« Reply #178 on: January 05, 2014, 01:58:33 PM »
Outside of scientific curiosity as to what makes people tick what difference does it make if someone chooses to be gay or if they are born that way? I myself am a pretty decent nice guy who happens to be straight. Should one day come when penises excite me I will become a pretty decent nice guy who happens to be gay. Why all the hubbub about choice or born that way? Should it become known that being gay is as much a choice as being a boob, ass, or leg man what difference does it make?

I'm a face person myself, if I like a persons face the rest kind of doesn't matter as much.  Though to be fair, the B and C cup are vastly underrated.

Maybe more people are not gay because our clothing hides the peen, unlike women's clothing which generally does a wonderful job of highlighting their figures?
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Offline bertatberts

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Re: MadBunny - why is murder a sin but God ordering destruction of someone not?
« Reply #179 on: January 05, 2014, 02:29:59 PM »
Quote from: OldChurchGuy
Currently, science seems to back up the idea that homosexuality is a choice rather than a genetic pre-disposition due to the fact a gay gene has yet to surface.
Ever curious,

OldChurchGuy
OCG and Sceptic. You both lost me! Is there an heterosexual gene then?
It is currently known that over a hundred and fifty species exhibit homosexual behaviour. So we don't need a gene to know that it is prominent in probably ever species, but there is only one that displays homophobic tendencies. I have no problem with who gay people are attracted to, so why should you!   
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Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: MadBunny - why is murder a sin but God ordering destruction of someone not?
« Reply #180 on: January 05, 2014, 03:07:09 PM »
Quote from: OldChurchGuy
Currently, science seems to back up the idea that homosexuality is a choice rather than a genetic pre-disposition due to the fact a gay gene has yet to surface.
Ever curious,

OldChurchGuy
OCG and Sceptic. You both lost me! Is there an heterosexual gene then?
It is currently known that over a hundred and fifty species exhibit homosexual behaviour. So we don't need a gene to know that it is prominent in probably ever species, but there is only one that displays homophobic tendencies. I have no problem with who gay people are attracted to, so why should you!

It appears the heterosexual gene is a given due to the generations of reproduction.  But I am not a geneticist so am speculating. 

I understand about there being over 150 species with homosexual behavior.  I suppose the argument can be made that these species also choose to be homosexual rather than heterosexual. 

My question was to understand Skeptics response if, hypothetically, a gay gene is found and proven to exist.

The response was that if such a gene is found then it is due to gene splicing by the Satan.  Which would seem to negate the idea that homosexuality is a choice since a supernatural entity chose to make some people gay via genetic manipulation.  Unless Skeptic is meaning that currently homosexual behavior is a choice and if sometime in the future a gay gene is found and documented THEN, from that point forward, homosexual behavior will be due to gene splicing by the Satan. 

Regardless, it appears to me that Skeptic is not opposed to science or scientific advancement provided the science does not conflict with his theology.  When a conflict between science and theology occurs, the theology remains sound and the science is suspect.  I may be wrong but that is how I understand Skeptic. 

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

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Offline Graybeard

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Re: MadBunny - why is murder a sin but God ordering destruction of someone not?
« Reply #181 on: January 05, 2014, 03:16:48 PM »

There is no evidence that people are born gay though. They can't find the gay gene. This means it's in the soul.
So, if you can't find something, it is in the soul? I'm interested in how this has been shown to be true.

You may like to read this: "Left-Handedness in Twins: Genes or Environment?"
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0010945296800050 It would appear that left-handedness is not genetic: So, all those left-handed people are just doing it to annoy right-handers and demanding special rights like left-handed can-openers, etc!

Skeptic: I note that you just say the first thing that comes into your head without any thought at all. Have you always been like that? I mean, is it "in your soul"? And if so, can you change it?

if God had said, "Thou shalt go forth and write right-handed," then being left-handed would be a sin.
I must admit that I am not used to dealing with people who simply refuse to think.

My point was that you had said that homosexuality had not been shown to be genetic, but I showed that left-handedness had not either, yet people who are borne left-handed cannot change to being right-handed.

If you think that homosexuality is "curable" and is merely a "lifestyle choice". I suggest that you change your sexuality[1] and the hand you write with for a month or so.

From your comments, I assume that you would find that both repulsive and impossible - however, you expect a homosexual, like a left-handed person simply to change...

Do we need visas to enter your world?
 1. You need not do much more than view males with lust and view a few pictures of men kissing men - I am not expecting you to do anything that will damn your soul any more than it is already damned
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

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Re: MadBunny - why is murder a sin but God ordering destruction of someone not?
« Reply #182 on: January 05, 2014, 03:22:13 PM »
^i think he only takes Diner's Club.

;)

-Nam
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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: MadBunny - why is murder a sin but God ordering destruction of someone not?
« Reply #183 on: January 05, 2014, 03:44:17 PM »
A quick question for Skeptic. He says that native peoples not exposed to Christianity still exhibited good solid christian values. You know, as long as they were nice and stuff. Because god etches his moral code on everyone's heart.

So American Indians, who as a group accepted homosexuality, but who also had god's moral code etched on their heart: How did that work?

And this is just an idea, but maybe god should be writing on our genitals instead of our heart. Us guys, at least, could then see what he had to say.
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Offline lotanddaughters

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Re: MadBunny - why is murder a sin but God ordering destruction of someone not?
« Reply #184 on: January 05, 2014, 06:16:29 PM »
Will all due respect, Psalm 137:9 seems to be a favorite on this website.  And the verse is very dark ("Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.").  But, like so many verse snippets, there is more.  The entire Psalm reads:



1 By the rivers of Babylon we sat and wept when we remembered Zion.

2 There on the poplars we hung our harps,

3 for there our captors asked us for songs, our tormentors demanded songs of joy; they said, “Sing us one of the songs of Zion!”

4 How can we sing the songs of the Lord while in a foreign land?

5 If I forget you, Jerusalem, may my right hand forget its skill.

6 May my tongue cling to the roof of my mouth if I do not remember you, if I do not consider Jerusalem my highest joy.

7 Remember, Lord, what the Edomites did on the day Jerusalem fell.  “Tear it down,” they cried, “tear it down to its foundations!”

8 Daughter Babylon, doomed to destruction, happy is the one who repays you according to what you have done to us.

9 Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.

It is my understanding this Psalm is a call to God for revenge.  The Babylonians had conquered the Southern Kingdom (made up of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin) which was quite a surprise for this remaining remnant of the chosen people.  The Southern Kingdom leaders were taken back to Babylon and felt humiliated by their captors.  So the writer of this Psalm tried to come up with the worst possible description of vengeance he could imagine.  What could be worse than wanting your captor's children killed? 

While the Persians did eventually conquer the Babylonians, there is no record (to the best of my limited knowledge) that they dashed any Babylonian infants against any rocks. 

End of lecture.

OldChurchGuy

Well, it seems to me that an ever-increasing percentage of people are coming or have already come to the conclusion that the entire Bible was written by people, and an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving, and all-present God had absolutely nothing to do with it. When I think about the writers of the Bible, it also seems to me that the more recent the life of the writer, the less ruthless the writer, on average. Having said that, splattering babies to death by throwing them against hard surfaces seems to have occurred in the Mediterranean area from the beginning of recorded history all the way through modern times.

You have Psalm 137:9. That's one reference.

There is Julia Drusilla, daughter of Caligula.

I was watching some documentary on television a while back. I think it was about Uday Hussein. They were interviewing some Iraqi guy. He said Uday's men tied this guy up in a chair. Then they brought this captive's wife and baby in the room. They raped the wife and threw the baby against the wall, killing it instantly. Shortly after, they ended up killing the captive. My memory could be foggy on this one because it might have been 5 or 6 years since I watched it. Also, it's just one man's testimony.



One thing I like about you is that you seem to understand why atheists approach the Bible as just another collection of ancient writings. Sometimes it might even seem that we hate the Bible. I think it's just that we don't agree with much of the morality that is taught or not taught within its pages. Biblical writings are extremely valuable. Every ancient manuscript we have is valuable. They help us explore the minds of ancient people. With no available time machine, we need all the help we can get.     
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: MadBunny - why is murder a sin but God ordering destruction of someone not?
« Reply #185 on: January 05, 2014, 10:28:52 PM »
If sexuality is in the "soul" did God create them in that way?  God creates a soul ....no?
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Re: MadBunny - why is murder a sin but God ordering destruction of someone not?
« Reply #186 on: January 05, 2014, 11:18:48 PM »
If sexuality is in the "soul" did God create them in that way?  God creates a soul ....no?

:)

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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: MadBunny - why is murder a sin but God ordering destruction of someone not?
« Reply #187 on: January 06, 2014, 01:29:23 AM »
You are certainly permitted to disagree with us, but don't try to force your ideas about morality and such down our throat as givens and wonder why we argue with you.

My irony meter broke when I read this part of your post.

This is exactly what you guys are doing! Trying to force your morality on us Christians who don't agree with it.

Can't you see the hypocrisy?

Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: MadBunny - why is murder a sin but God ordering destruction of someone not?
« Reply #188 on: January 06, 2014, 01:31:47 AM »
So at what age did you choose to become a heterosexual?

This is the natural way of life. No choice need be made. You can only choose to deviate from the path. If everyone was gay, humanity would die out within 80 years or so.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline MadBunny

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Re: MadBunny - why is murder a sin but God ordering destruction of someone not?
« Reply #189 on: January 06, 2014, 01:59:33 AM »
So at what age did you choose to become a heterosexual?

This is the natural way of life. No choice need be made. You can only choose to deviate from the path. If everyone was gay, humanity would die out within 80 years or so.

That's odd because you said sexual orientation was a choice.
Also, please skip the straw man.  It's obvious that not everyone is gay.


There is no evidence that people are born gay though. They can't find the gay gene. This means it's in the soul.

Skin color and eye color can not be compared to who you choose to sleep with. I can go out and find a guy to have sex if I wanted to, but I don't want to. It IS a choice no matter what anyone says.


So who's right?  You, or you?
Give a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a night.  Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

Offline Boots

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Re: MadBunny - why is murder a sin but God ordering destruction of someone not?
« Reply #190 on: January 06, 2014, 11:04:43 AM »
You are certainly permitted to disagree with us, but don't try to force your ideas about morality and such down our throat as givens and wonder why we argue with you.

My irony meter broke when I read this part of your post.

This is exactly what you guys are doing! Trying to force your morality on us Christians who don't agree with it.

Can't you see the hypocrisy?

I should draw a distinction between "forcing our morality on Christians" and "forcing Christians to defend their moral position (which THEY are continually trying to force down everyone else's throats)"

You are not being coerced into changing your moral position.  You are being asked to defend it.
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Re: MadBunny - why is murder a sin but God ordering destruction of someone not?
« Reply #191 on: January 06, 2014, 11:08:16 AM »
You are certainly permitted to disagree with us, but don't try to force your ideas about morality and such down our throat as givens and wonder why we argue with you.

My irony meter broke when I read this part of your post.

This is exactly what you guys are doing! Trying to force your morality on us Christians who don't agree with it.

Can't you see the hypocrisy?



I thought us atheists got our morality from Christians? If you badmouth our morality, according to you, you're badmouthing your own.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

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Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: MadBunny - why is murder a sin but God ordering destruction of someone not?
« Reply #192 on: January 06, 2014, 11:46:08 AM »
Quote
One thing I like about you is that you seem to understand why atheists approach the Bible as just another collection of ancient writings. Sometimes it might even seem that we hate the Bible. I think it's just that we don't agree with much of the morality that is taught or not taught within its pages. Biblical writings are extremely valuable. Every ancient manuscript we have is valuable. They help us explore the minds of ancient people. With no available time machine, we need all the help we can get.   

Your kind words are truly appreciated. 

I agree that most atheists don't hate the Bible.  The disagreement is when a subjective theist tries to argue with a comparatively objective atheist.  The theist tends to present personal testimony and theology while the atheist is looking for some sort of proof God exists before worrying about the personal testimony.  I can see where the tension between the two camps can get old. 

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy
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Offline median

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Re: MadBunny - why is murder a sin but God ordering destruction of someone not?
« Reply #193 on: January 06, 2014, 01:12:41 PM »
You are certainly permitted to disagree with us, but don't try to force your ideas about morality and such down our throat as givens and wonder why we argue with you.

My irony meter broke when I read this part of your post.

This is exactly what you guys are doing! Trying to force your morality on us Christians who don't agree with it.

Can't you see the hypocrisy?

Your morality is irrational, based on superstition, and hypocritical. But I suppose if morality isn't about the well being of others for you then maybe you shouldn't be in society (since you've already admitted that you are fine with just following orders even when they are disgusting, vile, and clearly contrary to your conscience).
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: MadBunny - why is murder a sin but God ordering destruction of someone not?
« Reply #194 on: January 06, 2014, 01:52:02 PM »
You are certainly permitted to disagree with us, but don't try to force your ideas about morality and such down our throat as givens and wonder why we argue with you.

My irony meter broke when I read this part of your post.

This is exactly what you guys are doing! Trying to force your morality on us Christians who don't agree with it.

Can't you see the hypocrisy?

Nobody who is pro-abortion has even demanded that all women get abortions. Christians who are against abortion are demanding that no women ever get one.

There is a big difference.

Demanding public prayer in public schools, when not all students are christian, or even religious, is unacceptable. Those against public prayer don't demand that no student ever say a silent prayer (which your god supposedly hears just fine). But we are against forced prayer in non-religious settings.

Do you have an example of non-christians trying to force their morality upon christians? One where the christians would be totally deprived of a right? I'd like to hear it.

Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline screwtape

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Re: MadBunny - why is murder a sin but God ordering destruction of someone not?
« Reply #195 on: January 06, 2014, 03:01:08 PM »
Thanks to everyone who contributed to derailing this thread.

FYI: we have a debate area were you can have a conversation 1 on 1 and other members who were not invited get booted.  You need only ask, and it can be set up for you. 
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: MadBunny - why is murder a sin but God ordering destruction of someone not?
« Reply #196 on: January 06, 2014, 05:05:57 PM »
This is exactly what you guys are doing! Trying to force your morality on us Christians who don't agree with it.
No, actually, it isn't.  What they're trying is to get you to understand that your morality isn't the 'default', de facto morality of humanity.  If you, personally, want to follow that morality (provided it doesn't harm others), I don't think most of them would mind.  It's when you try to act as if your morality is the only valid morality that gets everyone's back up.

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: MadBunny - why is murder a sin but God ordering destruction of someone not?
« Reply #197 on: January 07, 2014, 05:56:28 AM »
This is the natural way of life. No choice need be made. You can only choose to deviate from the path. If everyone was gay, humanity would die out within 80 years or so.

Utter hogwash, there has been many studies, all indicating homosexual behavior is passed on via genetics, and hereditary traits.

If magically every human became gay, the human population would still continue to grow.

Ever heard of artificial insemination?

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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: MadBunny - why is murder a sin but God ordering destruction of someone not?
« Reply #198 on: January 07, 2014, 10:55:53 PM »
This is the natural way of life. No choice need be made. You can only choose to deviate from the path. If everyone was gay, humanity would die out within 80 years or so.

Utter hogwash, there has been many studies, all indicating homosexual behavior is passed on via genetics, and hereditary traits.

If magically every human became gay, the human population would still continue to grow.

Ever heard of artificial insemination?

I am curious how that works.

If 2 straight people have a baby, how do they pass on gay genes to their offspring?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: MadBunny - why is murder a sin but God ordering destruction of someone not?
« Reply #199 on: January 07, 2014, 11:09:31 PM »
If 2 straight people have a baby, how do they pass on gay genes to their offspring?

Read about recessive genes and the effect of hormones, if that is not too difficult for you.

Non reproducing individuals are important for population stability. Without them numbers in populations would fluctuate dangerously and lead to extinctions.

It is strange that the Christian god did not understand how nature works when he dictated the bible. Maybe that tells us that this god does not actually exist?
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: MadBunny - why is murder a sin but God ordering destruction of someone not?
« Reply #200 on: January 07, 2014, 11:22:25 PM »
If 2 straight people have a baby, how do they pass on gay genes to their offspring?

Read about recessive genes and the effect of hormones, if that is not too difficult for you.

Non reproducing individuals are important for population stability. Without them numbers in populations would fluctuate dangerously and lead to extinctions.

It is strange that the Christian god did not understand how nature works when he dictated the bible. Maybe that tells us that this god does not actually exist?

Is it your position that infertile people should be congratulated?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: MadBunny - why is murder a sin but God ordering destruction of someone not?
« Reply #201 on: January 07, 2014, 11:33:25 PM »
If 2 straight people have a baby, how do they pass on gay genes to their offspring?

Read about recessive genes and the effect of hormones, if that is not too difficult for you.

Non reproducing individuals are important for population stability. Without them numbers in populations would fluctuate dangerously and lead to extinctions.

It is strange that the Christian god did not understand how nature works when he dictated the bible. Maybe that tells us that this god does not actually exist?

Is it your position that infertile people should be congratulated?

No, nature is not fair. Do not expect it to be. It just does what it does.


« Last Edit: January 08, 2014, 12:11:49 AM by Foxy Freedom »
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: MadBunny - why is murder a sin but God ordering destruction of someone not?
« Reply #202 on: January 08, 2014, 12:28:37 AM »
If 2 straight people have a baby, how do they pass on gay genes to their offspring?
Probably the same way that two people with dark-colored hair pass on light-colored hair genes to their children.  Not to mention that hair color is not just controlled by genes.