Author Topic: where does jesus say I want another religion?  (Read 380 times)

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Offline 1makesitwrong

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where does jesus say I want another religion?
« on: December 30, 2013, 06:24:22 AM »
This is my first topic and I thought I would start at the beginning or lack of a beginning.  I can't find two things in the bible which I think is very important.  Where does it say that jesus wants everyone to begin a new religion.  Let alone go to church on sunday, which is definitely not the sabbath day. I think the ommision of these two things are very important. It shows that christianity is a completely man made, made up religion.  Now seeing that god is perfect,  I am going to have to insist that the proof  you provide me, comes word for word from the bible. Not an interpretation of other words.
The bible was pronounced dead at the scene

Offline magicmiles

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Re: where does jesus say I want another religion?
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2013, 06:50:51 AM »
Welcome.

John 14:6

"...I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the father except through me"

As for worshipping together as a church, this might be helpful:


http://christianity.about.com/od/whatdoesthebiblesay/i/churchattendanc.htm
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Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: where does jesus say I want another religion?
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2013, 07:32:07 AM »
This is my first topic and I thought I would start at the beginning or lack of a beginning.  I can't find two things in the bible which I think is very important.  Where does it say that jesus wants everyone to begin a new religion.  Let alone go to church on sunday, which is definitely not the sabbath day. I think the ommision of these two things are very important. It shows that christianity is a completely man made, made up religion.  Now seeing that god is perfect,  I am going to have to insist that the proof  you provide me, comes word for word from the bible. Not an interpretation of other words.

Regarding Sunday, tradition goes back to the book of Acts, 20:7.  In the NIV translation it reads "On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight."  Since the Jewish Sabbath was on the last day of the week (our modern Saturday) the first day of the week was Sunday. 

Here is a link which may be of help. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord's_Day

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

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Online wheels5894

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Re: where does jesus say I want another religion?
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2013, 08:29:31 AM »
I am not convinced that Jesus wanted to start a new religion. I think he was a reformer who saw the problems with Judaism and wanted it reformed so that it was for everypone and not just the wealthy. The only place where Jesus uses the word 'church' is in the pericope in which Peter declares Jesus to be the son of god and Jesus calls Peter the rock. Given the unusual word 'church' in the text - its the only place though it appears in various gospels, I think we can dismiss that as the words of Jesus and more likely an addition when the disciples had got the early church started.

Aside from that, Jesus shows no interest in any different religion and he rmained a Jew through his life.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Online albeto

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Re: where does jesus say I want another religion?
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2013, 11:28:13 AM »
I am not convinced that Jesus wanted to start a new religion. I think he was a reformer who saw the problems with Judaism and wanted it reformed so that it was for everypone and not just the wealthy....

I am not convinced Jesus ever existed. I think there is more evidence to support the idea that the Jewish religion underwent the same popular evolution other regional religions underwent when exposed to the Greeks. Richard Carrier gives a brief introduction to this by introducing one to the other religions whose ideas underwent similar Hellenization:

Eleusinian & Dionysian mysteries (Phoenecian - west. Syria
Attis and Cybele mysteries (Phrygean- no. Turkey)
mysteries of Jupiter Dolichenus (Anatolian - west. Turkey)
mysteries of Mythras (Persian - Iran)
Isis & Osiris mysteries (Egyptian)
Christ mystery (Jewish - Israel & Palestine)

The concept of Jesus being a god/man who died and was resurrected for the redemption of mankind was not new to the Jesus cult. Romulus was a Roman state god whose death & resurrection were celebrated in annual plays. Osiris was the Egyptian god who offers salvation in afterlife to those baptized into his death and resurrection. Zalmoxis was the Thracian god whose death & resurrection assures followers eternal life. Jesus was just the Jewish version of this popular character.

The idea that there was a guy on the streets who spoke anything about reform is not an incredible claim at all. The idea that there was a guy on the streets who spoke about reform whose identity is in any way related to the Jewish religion. However, to suggest Jesus existed is to suggest a man just so happened to have contained so many qualities of the dying-rising god/man religions of other regions, only this one was based on a real person. It would be like saying we know the Marvel and DC comics are pure story, but Spiderman was real, even if he was embellished a little.

So in answer to the OP's question, you'll find evidence in the bible that Jesus wanted to start a new religion (as magicmiles explains) but also that Jesus didn't want to start a new religion, for he came to "fulfill" the old one (Matthew 5:17-20: “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."). In any case, you might be interested in the following videos. The first is long, but I think quite informative and fascinating. It's an historical look at the development of the character of Jesus. This second is a neurological explanation of certain obsessions and how they might be a more valid explanation of the origins of Christian rituals/religion.


Richard Carrier, historian
Yes, this is very long!






Richard Sapolski, neurologist

Online wheels5894

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Re: where does jesus say I want another religion?
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2013, 11:39:08 AM »
Well I am with you, Alberto, to the extent that I don't think that, if Jesus existed, he was anything like the character that the gospels paint. There were plenty of itinerant preachers around at that time. I think it quite likely that one, Jesus, was executed for bringing a crowd into the city. That's the history as I see it.

The rest isn't history at all - the few disciples he had found that one or two of their number has claimed to have seen Jesus. It is not uncommon for a recently bereaved person to see the dead relative in a favourite position asnd I think that is what has happened with Jesus. Over the years afterwards, the story grew and grew as the first, few disciples tried to covert others and told stories about their dead leader until a set of books was written - the gospels.

Sorry, no time to watch you videos now but I'll round to it later.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline 1makesitwrong

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Re: where does jesus say I want another religion?
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2013, 01:43:51 PM »
Did I miss something in the responses?  Because I still didn't see a quoted verse that said I want you to start a new religion.  Nor did I see a verse that said it was okay to change the sabbath day to meet the change of the modern day end of the week.  If you can do that, then why not rewrite the bible to fit in with the rest of the modern world?
The bible was pronounced dead at the scene

Offline Graybeard

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Re: where does jesus say I want another religion?
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2013, 05:00:49 PM »
Did I miss something in the responses?  Because I still didn't see a quoted verse that said I want you to start a new religion.
You will not find that. Jesus was quite specific in that He did not want to form a new religion: Mat:5:17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Quote
Nor did I see a verse that said it was okay to change the sabbath day to meet the change of the modern day end of the week.
I think you are asking the wrong question. Old Church Guy gives you an answer by way of providing an interesting Wiki link.
If you want something a little more esoteric, I can offer you Bishop Ussher's calculation that God began creation at nightfall preceding Sunday, Oct 23, 4004 BC and therefore God rested on the following Saturday.

The first biblical reference is
Exo 16:23  And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.

The main problem is that nobody knows upon which day he said it. You can assume... but there is no proof.

(The next problem is that the Commandment Exo 20:10  But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: which comes after what Moses has already said. (Perhaps he had a dream.)

The final problem is that Moses never existed.

Speaking scientifically, the days of the week are arbitrary and in 1752 the Gregorian Calendar was changed for the Julian Calendar and Britain (and American Colonies) lost 11 days. Therefore what was a Sunday became what was a Wednesday.

I hope this helps.
Obviously you have gone into the subject more than most of us here, could you give us the chapter and verse where it says that the Sabbath is not a Sunday?
« Last Edit: December 30, 2013, 05:08:02 PM by Graybeard »
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline 1makesitwrong

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Re: where does jesus say I want another religion?
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2013, 05:38:03 PM »
That's my overall point that it is all dependent on what man has said and not any god.  If the day was so important wouldn't you think an all knowing god would not leave it up to human interpretation. 
The bible was pronounced dead at the scene