Author Topic: This Is Possible!  (Read 2313 times)

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Offline junebug72

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #58 on: January 06, 2014, 08:12:04 AM »
I see no planet earth or us w/o intelligence existing first.  How that intelligence is contained can be debated but that the intelligence existed I don't see how it could.  I see the extinction of the dinosaur as evidence, our protective atmosphere,  our precise location to the sun,  DNA,  the incredible human mind, body, and spirit,  photosynthesis, the magnetic field, our gravitational pull, all this I see as evidence of a great scientific mind at work.  Notice that bold, more evidence.  The fact that math answers questions is evidence of intelligence to me.  Do you think the universe just made us w/o calculations.  To calculate you need a calculator; a brilliant mind.   A mind that is much more advanced than our own!

Here you are turning maths and science into god and god into something indistinguishable from an advanced alien race that can take the knowledge they have of science and maths and create a complex planetary system.

Well I'd certainly buy that over the biblical explanation!

They are as unsubstantiated as one another. 

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I am not turning math and science into god.  I'm saying that God used them like we do on a larger scale.  I'm saying these laws existed before us or our planet.  I do not see how either one creates life individually with out an operator.  If not for these laws our existence would not be possible.  Y'all are the ones turning God into science not me.

You're saying that these laws existed before god too, and that he used them. He didn't create them, he used them, ergo you are making these laws more godlike than god.

And who is "y'all"? I speak for me and me alone. Nowhere have I claimed science is god, so please don't misrepresent me.

If you do not believe there was an intelligent entity involved in our creation then yes you do believe science is God.  You believe these laws worked independently to create life.  That may not be your definition of God but it is mine;creator of life on earth.  You are trying to replace God with science.  I prefer to intertwine the two.  I think I make more sense. :laugh:

Using the victim card around here is taboo.  Defending yourself a big no no.  I don't care what people say about you. 

I am making them tools of God not God!
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Ataraxia

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #59 on: January 06, 2014, 08:32:17 AM »
If you do not believe there was an intelligent entity involved in our creation then yes you do believe science is God.  You believe these laws worked independently to create life.  That may not be your definition of God but it is mine;creator of life on earth.  You are trying to replace God with science.  I prefer to intertwine the two.  I think I make more sense. :laugh:

Using the victim card around here is taboo.  Defending yourself a big no no.  I don't care what people say about you. 

I am making them tools of God not God!

I don't think you know what science is. All it is is a method of investigation. To say that science can be considered a god when it isn't an intelligence seems like a misnomer, but then from an ignostic point of view, when god can mean any catch-all thing you can think of to render the term meaningless, then heck, my Biro is god.

I believe that there is no evidence to suggest that these laws are dependent on an intelligence in order for life to exist on earth. You can change that by actually supplying evidence instead of bold assertion, and since you believe in a god that was born out of a natural occurrence, then evidence can potentially be produced (unlike a supernatural god).

With what I've alluded to above, your theology does highlight a major problem with theism/deism - the inconsistency of the term "God". What does it mean? - anything you want, to a point that like with you, that even those who consider themselves atheists aren't really atheist, because even they come to a point where something has to be classed as god.
"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." - Voltaire

Offline junebug72

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #60 on: January 06, 2014, 09:42:35 AM »
Logic can be used to prove belief.  My logic is tight. 

Yelp evidence could eventually be produced unlike the biblical claims of God!

I'll tell you what I'll provide some evidence when you do.  Go ahead show me some physics creating planets that support life and then the life that it creates.  To me all the planets out there that do not have humans on them is all the proof I need that these laws need an operator to create life as we know it.  Your version of things there should be life on every planet!!!  I see those planets there on purpose as a protective shield keeping big asteroids and comets from demolishing our planet.  They were never meant to sustain human life.  Thinking that we could just move to one of them is just a way to keep letting scientist destroy this planet with their polluting fossil fuels!!!  The sun's life ending in 4 billion years can be avoided if we please God by loving one another, IMO.

One more thing, believing in an afterlife does not make me think less of this one but quite the opposite!!!  It helps me understand why we should be kind to one another.  Even if your fellow man doesn't appreciate your kindness there is someone larger than them that does!

Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Boots

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #61 on: January 06, 2014, 10:59:39 AM »
Logic can be used to prove belief.  My logic is tight. 

jb, the rest of your post belies that statement (examples below).  But I'd like to invite you to present your logic again, in a cohesive manner.  What, exactly, are you logically claiming again?

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To me all the planets out there that do not have humans on them is all the proof I need that these laws need an operator to create life as we know it.  Your version of things there should be life on every planet!!!  I see those planets there on purpose as a protective shield keeping big asteroids and comets from demolishing our planet. 

wh--wh--whaaaaa???  in what way is "our version of things" stating that there should be life on every planet?  This seems like a GROSS misrepresentation of anything anyone on this thread has said, so please elucidate me on what you mean.

And as a "protective shield" against incoming collisions...do you understand the vastness of the space between each of the planets?  You're talking about standing in the middle of 5 football fields, and hoping that 7 acorns floating around you throughout that space are going to block incoming rocks somehow.  It's really...far-fetched.

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They were never meant to sustain human life.  Thinking that we could just move to one of them is just a way to keep letting scientist destroy this planet with their polluting fossil fuels!!!  The sun's life ending in 4 billion years can be avoided if we please God by loving one another, IMO.

how exactly will that happen?

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One more thing, believing in an afterlife does not make me think less of this one but quite the opposite!!!  It helps me understand why we should be kind to one another.  Even if your fellow man doesn't appreciate your kindness there is someone larger than them that does!

Can you explain how a blessed, eternal afterlife makes you think more of this one?  I don't follow the logic.
* Religion: institutionalized superstition, period.

"Many of my ultra-conservative Republican friends...have trouble accepting the idea God is not a Republican. " ~OldChurchGuy

"We humans may never figure out the truth, but I prefer trying to find it over pretending we know it."  ~ParkingPlaces

Offline junebug72

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #62 on: January 06, 2014, 01:00:37 PM »
"We humans may never figure out the truth, but I prefer trying to find it over pretending we know it."  ~ParkingPlaces

But yet you assert to know many things! You rule others out w/o considering the possibility of their truths.  I am only interested in getting rid of the OT.  Like for instance you know God doesn't exist, right?  We should all be agnostic about what we believe until the absolute truth is known!  I am an agnostic theist with no belief in the bible's OT.  Moses is nothing more than a serial killer who knows nothing about God only human cruelty, death and chaos.  Does that mean God doesn't exist, sure don't, it means Moses was a cruel man.

As far as the afterlife, I mean it's the only place I will ever know true peace.  I can be reunited with my loved ones there.  I will not hunger nor will I experience pain.  What good is dying if not to take you there?  Life is a journey to death; I just don't think death is the end.  I don't want an eternal life on earth.  That would suck.  It makes me appreciate this life because this life is my ticket there so long as I am kind to others!  I can live w/o fear of dying! W/o the afterlife It would be cruel to even reproduce knowing your childs inevitable fate with death.  Why put that on someone, especially someone you love? 

I am logically claiming that God might exist!

You know what I'm beginning to think the only way people here will understand me is to walk a mile in my shoes!  I'm here representing the gay community.  To tell them they can believe despite what religions tell them.  Anybody can.  There are a lot of gays that believe in God the same way I do.  The bible forces us to look outside the bible for comfort and many of us have found it in spirituality!  I will not give religion the satisfaction of taking belief away from me.   The only way to do that is with an absolute truth!
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Boots

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #63 on: January 06, 2014, 01:48:07 PM »
I am logically claiming that God might exist!

which one?

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As far as the afterlife, I mean it's the only place I will ever know true peace.  I can be reunited with my loved ones there.  I will not hunger nor will I experience pain.  What good is dying if not to take you there?  Life is a journey to death; I just don't think death is the end.  I don't want an eternal life on earth.  That would suck.  It makes me appreciate this life because this life is my ticket there so long as I am kind to others!  I can live w/o fear of dying! W/o the afterlife It would be cruel to even reproduce knowing your childs inevitable fate with death.  Why put that on someone, especially someone you love?

once again, just because you want something to be true, doesn't mean that it is.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2014, 01:49:46 PM by Boots »
* Religion: institutionalized superstition, period.

"Many of my ultra-conservative Republican friends...have trouble accepting the idea God is not a Republican. " ~OldChurchGuy

"We humans may never figure out the truth, but I prefer trying to find it over pretending we know it."  ~ParkingPlaces

Offline junebug72

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #64 on: January 06, 2014, 02:01:47 PM »
The one that might have created us! 

Quote
once again, just because you want something to be true, doesn't mean that it is.

ditto


Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Boots

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #65 on: January 06, 2014, 03:05:28 PM »
The one that might have created us! 

that...was not very helpful.

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Quote
once again, just because you want something to be true, doesn't mean that it is.

ditto

?  what makes you think I don't want there to be a god/afterlife?  What have I posted that led you to that conclusion?
* Religion: institutionalized superstition, period.

"Many of my ultra-conservative Republican friends...have trouble accepting the idea God is not a Republican. " ~OldChurchGuy

"We humans may never figure out the truth, but I prefer trying to find it over pretending we know it."  ~ParkingPlaces

Offline xyzzy

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #66 on: January 06, 2014, 03:53:56 PM »
Xyzzy,  Should I have bolded the questions?

I did not invent God I just took the bible out of the equation.  I am proud of every word I've posted.  My beliefs don't hurt you or anybody else, not even me.  That's the way belief should be;  Harmless! ;)  The bible is not harmless.

If I, a mortal, can be loving then I am certain that our immortal creator is loving x 100! If God exists!

That's all you get until you answer my questions. :blank:

Or you can go ahead and admit you lack respect for us both because we believe in God!  Or you're problem with me is I'm too darn sweet!  Neither a good reason to disrespect someone!

Gosh, Junebug, you certainly could have bolded the questions, but I feel that all that would have accomplished was to draw even more attention to the fact that they did nothing to remedy the lack of support you have provided for your OP.

Further, rather than pursuing this strange narrative of Junebug the oppressed, it would be so much more helpful if you could, you know, provide support for your premise. But seeing as you insist...

You are correct, I did not answer your questions and the reason is that I considered them to be inappropriate and unhelpful in terms of furthering the discussion of your claim. Concerning OldChurchGuy. I can only repeat that I made that point in support of the position that it's perfectly possible to hold a contrary position, one based on faith, and still be a respected and well-liked member of this community. That you managed to turn that upon its head, is something I wonder if you shouldn't take some time to reflect upon.

Now, I'm going to make some comments in general because I would apply them to any member of this forum, not just the individual noted above.

Junebug, generally speaking, I don't think it's appropriate to ask one member to speak on-behalf of another, especially when that other is neither a participant in this section, nor in this thread. Further, to insist that one person make a personal statement regarding another is not only inappropriate, it's completely and utterly disrespectful to the other individual to do so.

Regarding yourself. Apparently the fact that I am willing to spend a not-inconsiderable amount of time working on posts, engaging your arguments, reading back on your previous replies, all in an attempt to move the conversation forward, means something different to you than it does to me. That's your prerogative, I suppose.

So, to answer your final question above, and in the only manner to which I think it dignifies a response: the fact that you would ask that, and that you would do so from the platform of demanding that someone defend themselves against the position you have assigned to them,[1] makes me consider if the individual in this thread with the least amount of respect for junebug72 - is you.

Now, may we please get back to the actual topic of this thread - that of you providing support for your claim?
 1. it's really a loaded question - another fallacy
« Last Edit: January 06, 2014, 04:10:59 PM by xyzzy »
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool -- Richard Feynman
You are in a maze of twisty little religions, all alike -- xyzzy

Offline Ataraxia

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #67 on: January 07, 2014, 03:25:56 AM »
Logic can be used to prove belief.  My logic is tight.

I, and I dare say we, beg to differ. 

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Yelp evidence could eventually be produced unlike the biblical claims of God!

So if it hasn't yet been produced, why believe it?

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I'll tell you what I'll provide some evidence when you do.  Go ahead show me some physics creating planets that support life and then the life that it creates.

I find this a very odd shifting of the burden, presumably because you believe in the "physics" that creates planets, only you add on an intelligence behind it to guide it - you know, the calculator behind the calculations, the scientific mind?

So I could, if I felt obliged and warranted, explain how planet formation works to the best of our knowledge, but one, what would be the point considering you can still accept these explanations but still plonk god behind these processes, and two, the burden is on you to show that an intelligence is strictly behind any process you can make up for planet formation. You're the one adding this extra bit on the end without justification.

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To me all the planets out there that do not have humans on them is all the proof I need that these laws need an operator to create life as we know it.

You won't find humans on other planets, unless we actually go there. Humans are an evolutionary product of earth, and even if somewhere out there in the cosmos there is a species on another planet that resembles a human down to DNA level, are they still classed as human?

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Your version of things there should be life on every planet!!!

My version of things? What is that exactly, and how do you come to the conclusion you have? You see, "my version", or what you might call "the observable world version", doesn't expect there to be life on every planet. Life will arise on a planet (or a moon or another potential celestial body) if the conditions are right for life to arise on that planet. That's what happened with earth. You seem to be in a position where the conditions can't ever be right unless some intelligence wants them to be so and makes them so. Yet, as you have said, there is not one morsel of evidence to show that this is the case, but we are to ditch all the knowledge gained from decades of painstaking research and investigation of the evidence and go with your "logic" because you (and you alone) say it is tight? Er, no thanks.

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I see those planets there on purpose as a protective shield keeping big asteroids and comets from demolishing our planet.

See Boots' football field and acorn analogy. Also, even if you had a point here, how would these planets protect us from a direct hit from a nearby (relatively speaking) gamma ray burst or pulsar? Do the planets in our solar system all have a share scheme in ozone or something?

Then we come to you being ignorant of the possibility of life existing elsewhere in our solar system. Europa, Enceladus, even Mars. God put these bodies there to protect earthly life from celestial bombardment? Seriously, pull the other one. As is clear from your projection of "my version", you're quite as ease with making stuff up on the spot.

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They were never meant to sustain human life.  Thinking that we could just move to one of them is just a way to keep letting scientist destroy this planet with their polluting fossil fuels!!!

As I've said above, humans are an evolutionary product of earth where the conditions are so that human life can be sustained on it. We fit the specific conditions that the earth currently holds, it doesn't work the other way around. And you are begging the question here by implying that these other planets were never "meant" to sustain human life. "Meant" implies purpose, and purpose requires something with active goals, which in this case is the god you have shoehorned in.

I can't take your statement regarding destroying this planet seriously. It is simply vapid and ignorant. I haven't heard anywhere that scientists are thinking "we could just move to one of them".

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The sun's life ending in 4 billion years can be avoided if we please God by loving one another, IMO.

As we've together already established that there currently is no evidence to support such an assertion, we can revert back to your burden of proof here. Ignoring that, I can say that this god of yours appears to be as callous as the bible one. While I agree with the sentiment of loving one another, doing it in order to please a god so that he'll stop our star turning into a red giant is not a good reason to love one another. It shouldn't take the appeasement of a god to want to do this, and any god who thinks it should so that he can stop us of from being annihilated, especially when he could do so without the proviso of doing what he'd like us to do, is morally deplorable.

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One more thing, believing in an afterlife does not make me think less of this one but quite the opposite!!!  It helps me understand why we should be kind to one another.  Even if your fellow man doesn't appreciate your kindness there is someone larger than them that does!

What you believe in the privacy of you own home and mind is your own business. If it gets you through the day, fine. However, when you expect that belief to hold reverence with others, you're going to have to do better than shouting "logic", making stuff up as you go along and pandering to your ignorance.
"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." - Voltaire

Offline junebug72

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #68 on: January 07, 2014, 09:16:32 AM »
Hey X,

I hate to bust your bubble man but you are the one that inappropriately brought OCG into this discussion not me.   You told me to look at OCG I did, and that's what I think about it.   If OCG is as understanding as I think he is,  he noticed I said no offense!   You're just pissed off because I called you out on your bull.  As I said before you're showing your weakness. 

I don't feel oppressed.  There ain't nothing you can dish out that I can't handle.  If you call me an attention whore be prepared for the fighting side of me!!! 

Whether or not you respect OCG is not my problem but I'm glad you do.  You want to prove something to me show me some respect for being the awesome person I am.   Now that would be something to brag about. LOL :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: And you know what...no I ain't going to tell you out here.  I will PM you.

GB, I take it back.  This guy is almost as bad as you!   where's the joy!!!  where's the laughter!!!   Where's the love!!!   Look up dreary in the dictionary and this place should be there.  I thought atheism made people happy.  Well obviously not! 

Try this smiling makes you "feel" better put some joy in your heart and come back to see me!  Yelp try smiling while posting your posts would be much more compelling!

Your post style is terrible!  You should try a few more drafts.  Damn that was easy.  I just made that shit up and posted it.  It was fun too!  I got so much satisfaction I could just pop right now! 


Ataraxia, 

Please refer to the wikipedia definition of cognitive perception or just refer to the thread I posted about perception it is right there.  Belief is perception and logic is used to prove it.  If your beliefs harm society then they are not good beliefs.  I have never harmed anyone but contraire I have been a positive influence to everyone I encounter.  Even if by only offering a smile and respect! 

Yelp I don't just make this shit up y'all! wait maybe I do, and you know what that's ok I own it, proud to.  The only person I have to blame if my beliefs hurt someone is myself.

I'm just a softy.  There ain't nothing wrong with that. ooooooooo I am beautiful no matter what they say,  no words can't bring me down oooooo,  I am beautiful, I am smart, I am gay,  I am loved!!!  I am BLESSED!!!

Now back to logical evidence.  Are you ready for it.  Take a deep breathe now.... READ...  I said that to have children in a cruel world with violent weather, death and all that stuff would be amoral in a Godless world.   I hope you're not on the floor right now...that would suck!lol :laugh:



Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Ataraxia

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #69 on: January 07, 2014, 09:36:32 AM »
Ataraxia, 

Please refer to the wikipedia definition of cognitive perception or just refer to the thread I posted about perception it is right there.  Belief is perception and logic is used to prove it.  If your beliefs harm society then they are not good beliefs.  I have never harmed anyone but contraire I have been a positive influence to everyone I encounter.  Even if by only offering a smile and respect! 

Yelp I don't just make this shit up y'all! wait maybe I do, and you know what that's ok I own it, proud to.  The only person I have to blame if my beliefs hurt someone is myself.

I'm just a softy.  There ain't nothing wrong with that. ooooooooo I am beautiful no matter what they say,  no words can't bring me down oooooo,  I am beautiful, I am smart, I am gay,  I am loved!!!  I am BLESSED!!!

Now back to logical evidence.  Are you ready for it.  Take a deep breathe now.... READ...  I said that to have children in a cruel world with violent weather, death and all that stuff would be amoral in a Godless world.   I hope you're not on the floor right now...that would suck!lol :laugh:

Thanks for responding to me without actually responding to my post.
"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." - Voltaire

Offline junebug72

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #70 on: January 07, 2014, 10:04:42 AM »
The one that might have created us! 

that...was not very helpful.

Quote
Quote
once again, just because you want something to be true, doesn't mean that it is.

ditto

?  what makes you think I don't want there to be a god/afterlife?  What have I posted that led you to that conclusion?

I know, right?  I'm sorry boots.  You deserve better than that but then again so do I.  I was being scenical. 

You know what I am going to say this about evidence.  If you want it you go get it it's a free country.  I'm not going to do all the work for you.  I have done my homework.  It's a personal choice to believe.
Logic- It is not something you make someone do.
Logic- You don't frighten people into believing in a Loving God you show them Love.  Enlightening isn't it! ;)  In fact it would be against everything I believe in.
Logic-  I believe God loves us all just the way we are!!!
Logic_ I bet God admires everyone here for being so brave.
Logic- I think the violence breaks God's heart.
Logic- I think we must figure this out on our own. 
Logic-If God has to interfere that means we failed as the human race. :'(
Logic- I think I would not have these thoughts if not for some reason.   
Logic-I believe that stuff because I believe God is much more perfect than I could ever dream of being.  I have my flaws I am only human.   I will not judge you that is out of my league! 


Please open up a window in here!  Damn it's too cold!  Up to 0 getting there!  A nut just rolled down the roof. 

To answer your question...Nobody forces you to be atheist it's a choice.  Maybe I made an improper assumption?
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline junebug72

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #71 on: January 07, 2014, 10:32:00 AM »
Ataraxia, 

Please refer to the wikipedia definition of cognitive perception or just refer to the thread I posted about perception it is right there.  Belief is perception and logic is used to prove it.  If your beliefs harm society then they are not good beliefs.  I have never harmed anyone but contraire I have been a positive influence to everyone I encounter.  Even if by only offering a smile and respect! 

Yelp I don't just make this shit up y'all! wait maybe I do, and you know what that's ok I own it, proud to.  The only person I have to blame if my beliefs hurt someone is myself.

I'm just a softy.  There ain't nothing wrong with that. ooooooooo I am beautiful no matter what they say,  no words can't bring me down oooooo,  I am beautiful, I am smart, I am gay,  I am loved!!!  I am BLESSED!!!

Now back to logical evidence.  Are you ready for it.  Take a deep breathe now.... READ...  I said that to have children in a cruel world with violent weather, death and all that stuff would be amoral in a Godless world.   I hope you're not on the floor right now...that would suck!lol :laugh:

Thanks for responding to me without actually responding to my post.


Yes I did.  I'm freaking innocent man! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:  You didn't receive the hidden message?  Must be something wrong with your third eye!

Your Welcome smarty pants! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:  See words can't get me down.  There's you some evidence. 

I can only give what I have.  I am an itsy bitsy piece of an enormous, humongous puzzle.

Seriously...My defense of the not responding charge... :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: excuse me...

1.I exposed the error in the opening remark. 
2.I gave supporting evidence of that fact
3.I gave you examples of sound logic
4.Now that's a dodge...I'm talking about you here! lol
5.I know I'm being a smart a.. and I should stop now...more evidence


Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Boots

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #72 on: January 07, 2014, 11:56:18 AM »
I'm pretty much skipping the rest of your post, jb, because we keep going over the same ground.  (you're asked for evidnece of your assertions, and you're shfting the burdon)  But I'll answer these two.

Logic- I think I would not have these thoughts if not for some reason.   

I've said this before, and I'll repeat it here.  There are 2 things that truly separate humans from other animals.
1) opposalbe thumbs
2) speech

it's #2 that allows us to think abstractly, create questions for which there are no (or extremely difficult) answers.  The reason you have these thoughts is because you can, that's it.

Quote
To answer your question...Nobody forces you to be atheist it's a choice.  Maybe I made an improper assumption?

I'd like nothing better than to believe the feel-good "everybody (who believes) wins!!!" assertions you are espousing.  They are simply nonsense to me, though, and defy real, hard logic and observable reality.  and I disagree with the "choice" thing. It's no more choice than to believe in gravity.  Or in evolution for that matter: "belief" in evolution is simply accepting the evidence that is presented, and rejecting the nonsense that anti-evolutionists spew.  I accepet evolution, gravity, and a godless universe as the best explanations for how things are/work in this world/universe to the best of our knowledge.

and I'm perfectly happy overall (I had a rough 2013 and am still feeling the effects of trying to recover from it, but nothing like what you and others are currently going through so I can only complain so much).  I have no problem with the idea that i'll be GONE once i'm dead.  Not sure why that's such an issue for folks...
* Religion: institutionalized superstition, period.

"Many of my ultra-conservative Republican friends...have trouble accepting the idea God is not a Republican. " ~OldChurchGuy

"We humans may never figure out the truth, but I prefer trying to find it over pretending we know it."  ~ParkingPlaces

Offline Traveler

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #73 on: January 07, 2014, 12:19:42 PM »
...Nobody forces you to be atheist it's a choice...

You are correct that no one is forcing me to be an atheist.

You could not be more wrong about it being a choice. I can no more choose to believe in god than you can choose to believe there are purple unicorns in my back yard. Go ahead, try it...
If we ever travel thousands of light years to a planet inhabited by intelligent life, let's just make patterns in their crops and leave.

Offline xyzzy

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #74 on: January 07, 2014, 12:59:23 PM »
junebug, this thread started with you claiming that your god was possible and linking it to the big bang. We now seem to be all over the place. You are bring in planets, evolution, intelligence, as well as asking others to provide explanations -- whereas we are seeking your explanation, but above and beyond an appeal to some cosmic "intelligence" or some other manifestation of the argument from design.

So, going back a step or two, I'd appreciate some answers to my previous questions. Now, it may be as I queried earlier, that you don't have these answers. In which case, just say so:

Now you've said "This Is Possible". Well, lots of things are "possible" if you misuse and abuse the term "possible". It's "possible" that less than 8 minutes ago the sun exploded. In fact, seeing as we have a mechanism of action as to why we might not yet be aware of that, I'm going to posit that it even though is absurdly unlikely to have happened, it's still almost infinitely more likely to be true than any claim where someone simply says "It's Possible!" because I should keep an open mind to it being possible. But I say that only based on your not yet having provided the detail as to how it is possible.

So, embracing science, please help us all understand:
  • what is "god" made from?
  • how was "god" made?
  • at what point in the big bang was god made?
  • what did "god" do then?
  • what does "god" do now?
  • the mechanism by which "god" accomplishes his tasks?
  • how we go about testing that?

edit: It's possible that your comment regarding labs and time was the answer, despite that fact that I commented otherwise? If that's the case, please clarify that you can't answer these questions.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2014, 01:02:40 PM by xyzzy »
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool -- Richard Feynman
You are in a maze of twisty little religions, all alike -- xyzzy

Offline junebug72

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #75 on: January 08, 2014, 12:20:04 PM »
junebug, this thread started with you claiming that your god was possible and linking it to the big bang. We now seem to be all over the place. You are bring in planets, evolution, intelligence, as well as asking others to provide explanations -- whereas we are seeking your explanation, but above and beyond an appeal to some cosmic "intelligence" or some other manifestation of the argument from design.

So, going back a step or two, I'd appreciate some answers to my previous questions. Now, it may be as I queried earlier, that you don't have these answers. In which case, just say so:

Now you've said "This Is Possible". Well, lots of things are "possible" if you misuse and abuse the term "possible". It's "possible" that less than 8 minutes ago the sun exploded. In fact, seeing as we have a mechanism of action as to why we might not yet be aware of that, I'm going to posit that it even though is absurdly unlikely to have happened, it's still almost infinitely more likely to be true than any claim where someone simply says "It's Possible!" because I should keep an open mind to it being possible. But I say that only based on your not yet having provided the detail as to how it is possible.

So, embracing science, please help us all understand:
  • what is "god" made from?
  • how was "god" made?
  • at what point in the big bang was god made?
  • what did "god" do then?
  • what does "god" do now?
  • the mechanism by which "god" accomplishes his tasks?
  • how we go about testing that?

edit: It's possible that your comment regarding labs and time was the answer, despite that fact that I commented otherwise? If that's the case, please clarify that you can't answer these questions.


1.Elements, amino acids
2.life giving elements super condensed
3.when it started
4.everything possible
5.love us
6.Physics, Chemistry
7.Logic, logic, logic

Look I'm not Einstein, I just had the idea a few weeks ago.  Things like that take time and lots and lots of money.  hummm I do need a new career! lol
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline junebug72

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #76 on: January 08, 2014, 12:27:38 PM »
...Nobody forces you to be atheist it's a choice...

You are correct that no one is forcing me to be an atheist.

You could not be more wrong about it being a choice. I can no more choose to believe in god than you can choose to believe there are purple unicorns in my back yard. Go ahead, try it...

I could no longer believe there is no God than you could believe I went to the moon and back yesterday! 

You were raised atheist right.  Nope you never had a choice. 
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Boots

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #77 on: January 08, 2014, 12:41:31 PM »
...Nobody forces you to be atheist it's a choice...

You are correct that no one is forcing me to be an atheist.

You could not be more wrong about it being a choice. I can no more choose to believe in god than you can choose to believe there are purple unicorns in my back yard. Go ahead, try it...

I could no longer believe there is no God than you could believe I went to the moon and back yesterday! 

You were raised atheist right.  Nope you never had a choice.

I won't speak for Traveller, but I was raised Roman Catholic, and contemplated priesthood as a late teen.

I only had a "choice" once I decided I had a choice, during/after my college education.
* Religion: institutionalized superstition, period.

"Many of my ultra-conservative Republican friends...have trouble accepting the idea God is not a Republican. " ~OldChurchGuy

"We humans may never figure out the truth, but I prefer trying to find it over pretending we know it."  ~ParkingPlaces

Offline xyzzy

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #78 on: January 08, 2014, 06:32:11 PM »
1.Elements, amino acids
2.life giving elements super condensed
3.when it started
4.everything possible
5.love us
6.Physics, Chemistry
7.Logic, logic, logic

1) Well, JB, this tells us that this god is not supernatural, and we should be able to detect it. So why can't we? Also, unfortunately, none of those things were present at the time of the big bang.

2) No, we know that isn't true (a) for the initial conditions and (b) it does not fit with any of the cosmological theories that are based on observation, science, and - frankly - reality.

3) No, we know that isn't true. At all. See and (1) and (2)

4) again, you are taking a position, working backwards, and inserting a god to suit your needs.

5) I see... and you know this how? I know it's what you want to believe.

6) No, see 1,2, and 3

7) We disagree on what logic is then. Logic isn't forcing things into holes where they don't fit.

Quote
Look I'm not Einstein, I just had the idea a few weeks ago.  Things like that take time and lots and lots of money.  hummm I do need a new career! lol

I'm not Einstein either - nice to meet you. However, you are claiming something is possible, you are stating it happened at (x) but nothing that we know supports your contention. In fact, all evidence points against that.

junebug, I understand this may seem harsh, I'm not trying to be so. But how on earth do you expect people to respond to you when you claim "It's Possible!" then, when asked to explain how, you respond with a 2 or 3 word explanation that flies in the face of known science?

I already tried to give you examples of things that are "possible" but so unlikely we can assume that they won't occur. We need to focus on what is probable or likely. Otherwise we can all just exclaim "it's possible" and spend our lives arguing about the why-nots. In this case, we are into the territory of reversing the burden of proof. You would need new physics and new chemistry for the above to work. Possible? Sure, if you mean as possible as I am writing this from the back of a Unicorn and beaming my thoughts direct to the server via telepathy. That's "possible" isn't it, JB?

You said it's a new idea, I can respect that. I would suggest that if you really think it's possible that you spend some time learning what we already know in cosmology (I don't mean the thumbnail sketch), at that point you'll understand why it's not, or you'll be able to articulate this new science that supports your claim.

Your explanation, to be taken seriously, needs to explain all that we know now, in as much or more detail as we currently possess, and it needs a way to be tested and shown to be more accurate than any other approach. Sorry, about that, but reality cares as little about what I want to believe as it does about you, and everyone else. That you don't have the money or resources is a common rebuttal from the making-things-up-crowd who, for example, propose speculative science to support Homeopathy but there's always a reason why it can't be tested and so on. Funny how that happens.

You see, I strongly get the impression that this belief of yours is important to you. So important that you keep looking for ways to turn it from a belief into a fact. But, the approach of just batting away rejections and going off and making up another scenario, and another, won't help you.

In other threads you have mentioned how you won't let your beliefs be taken away from you. Well, I'm down with that and, as my theist friends will attest, it's something I simply don't wish to do. However, once you or them start telling me that their beliefs are supported by science, then I do the same thing I do with any discussion on "science".

At that point I want to understand this new-thingy. I'll ask questions. If my understanding conflicts with theirs, I'll ask more questions; perhaps my understanding is wrong and that's a learning experience. However, inserting speculative versions of "science" tailor-made to fit a particular need, ones that contradict with what we know, ones that have no support for them, not even a working model, then we jump into the realms of pseudoscience which is usually stuff people make up specifically to shore up a belief masquerading as a fact.

Here, with the greatest respect, it's unfortunate but you don't seem to understand the science behind what you claim. It is, after all, complicated. How you proceed from here, though, that's up to you.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2014, 06:34:22 PM by xyzzy »
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool -- Richard Feynman
You are in a maze of twisty little religions, all alike -- xyzzy

Offline junebug72

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #79 on: January 24, 2014, 08:23:32 AM »
1 I do not masquerade my beliefs as fact.  I don't know why this keeps coming up.  I figured it out.  Man you have to be careful how you say things.  My title here is stated as a fact.  I'll get it one day. ;)
 
2 I've said many times I believe God operates within the laws of nature.

3 I realize I should've titled this thread different, it does imply a knowledge I do not have.  I can not say it is factually possible.

4 It was an idea and I really respect the opinions here on scientific matters.

5 I think even if we found that God was not created here it's an idea worth exploring.  I'm curious. 

6 What kind of wonders do you think may be possible out there?  A serious response please. :D  Using your understanding of scientific fact.
Just hypothetical stuff.

7 I'm sorry it took so long to respond.  I am glad I took my time though.  I think I learned something here.



JB
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline junebug72

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #80 on: January 24, 2014, 08:30:33 AM »
X what do you mean when you say these things were not present at the time of the Big Bang? 

I mean EXACTLY what things were not present?
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Graybeard

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #81 on: January 24, 2014, 09:02:30 AM »
2 I've said many times I believe God operates within the laws of nature.
All operations done within the laws of nature are natural
God operates within the laws of nature.
Therefore God is not supernatural.

If God is not supernatural then something natural could replicate his actions.

If God is not supernatural then is He alive or dead?
If He is alive, he requires a source of nourishment.
If He is alive, he requires a physical and corporeal existence.

You could hypothesise that God created the universe and then, in a terrible accident of His own making, fell into a giant star and was obliterated. However if this happened, it would be a question of when this happened.

I have said it before and will say it again, the supernatural cannot exist permanently. Beings who people claim are supernatural are like illusionists: it is said that they do what appears to be remarkable but there must be a rational explanation for their tricks. Once you know how the trick is done, there is no "supernatural" only "natural". If the tricks defy what we know to be natural laws, then they did not happen.

RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

Offline junebug72

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #82 on: January 24, 2014, 09:27:49 AM »
2 I've said many times I believe God operates within the laws of nature.
All operations done within the laws of nature are natural
God operates within the laws of nature.
Therefore God is not supernatural.

If God is not supernatural then something natural could replicate his actions.

If God is not supernatural then is He alive or dead?
If He is alive, he requires a source of nourishment.
If He is alive, he requires a physical and corporeal existence.

You could hypothesise that God created the universe and then, in a terrible accident of His own making, fell into a giant star and was obliterated. However if this happened, it would be a question of when this happened.

I have said it before and will say it again, the supernatural cannot exist permanently. Beings who people claim are supernatural are like illusionists: it is said that they do what appears to be remarkable but there must be a rational explanation for their tricks. Once you know how the trick is done, there is no "supernatural" only "natural". If the tricks defy what we know to be natural laws, then they did not happen.

I don't disagree with you here. 

Why go straight to God's death GB? 

I see it like this.  I see God as being brighter than the sun.  You just can't get too close to the sun.  Our physical bodies can't handle it.  I believe our spirits can and that's why we must transform from a physical being to a spiritual being. 

I believe we have duplicated "some" of God's work.  We are cloning plants and animals. 
 
I really hope God didn't fall into a star.  That was super gloomy.  :'(.........But point well taken.  Thanks for sharing.


JB
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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