Author Topic: This Is Possible!  (Read 4094 times)

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Offline Graybeard

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #29 on: January 01, 2014, 11:37:55 AM »

1. Why not because you say so?  It seems only logical to me that God would be the grand master of science!
Name me one god that can be shown to have ever contributed anything to science.
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2. If it is there conceptually it is there.
You mean that because I can conceive of something, it must be real? I can conceive of a flying leopard that turns into a lamppost every 17 minutes...
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3. bible smible I don't care what the bible says.
OK but I added "Your god might. but then if you invent a god, that god can do anything you want, can't it?" -> you have invented a god.
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4. We are in charge of our own destiny. We are not puppets but humans with minds of our own.
I don't see how this addresses my point: " the god of creation [has] left and gone on to do something else? Or, once having got his "train set" does he spend all day, every day playing with it?
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5. Did you know everything the day you were born?  I bet you would know a lot if you were 14 billion years old!!! and you're human!!!
junebug. This is quite disappointing. How did I learn things? By experience and the experience of others. From whom did your god learn?

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I certainly did not invent God.  No way, no shape, no how!!!
But you dismiss the Bible, so how do you know anything about "your god."? It does seem that you have invented a god. No real harm in that, just as long as you don't start evangelising. ; )
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Boots

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #30 on: January 01, 2014, 04:11:40 PM »
Y'all base every thing you believe on theory not proven fact yet you think I'm childish and naive for doing the same thing.

Hi JB.
I should like to draw a distinction between common-use of the word "theory" which is really "hypothesis," and the scientific use of "theory."

A scientific theory is ...well, from livescience.com (emphases added):

"A scientific theory summarizes a hypothesis or group of hypotheses that have been supported with repeated testing. If enough evidence accumulates to support a hypothesis, it moves to the next step—known as a theory—in the scientific method and becomes accepted as a valid explanation of a phenomenon."

So, when folks say "evolution is just a theory," they're equivocating (logical fallacy), misusing the term "theory" by replacing the above definition--an accepted explanation of phenomenon--with "hypothesis."  What you are suggesting is an hypothesis, not a theory.

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Except God has proven God's existence to me because I have opened my heart and soul to it.

So, to clarify--you believed in God and therefore he proved his existence to you?  I see that as problematically circular: in order to believe, you have to believe?  Am I misrepresenting your statement?
It's one of the reasons I'm an atheist today.  I decided to take my religion seriously, and that's when it started to fall apart for me.
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Offline wheels5894

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #31 on: January 01, 2014, 05:11:02 PM »
Boots,

You have summarised religion, including that of June which isn't a religion, perfectly, Circularity rules!
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Online junebug72

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #32 on: January 02, 2014, 08:14:30 AM »
Chronos,

When I say we control our own destiny I mean mankind as a whole.  Mankind can chose to eliminate nuclear weapons, we can chose to use less fossil fuels, we can also chose not to build homes next to the river/build them to withstand floods and winds.  We can chose to stop arguing over beliefs.

You can not prove your reality either.  The Big Bang is a theory, evolution "theory" and neither explain the complexity of the planet or the human body.  None of us can travel back through time and bring back evidence of our origins.  All any of us can do is speculate.  What I don't find necessary is to use God's name to control mankind or to criticize/hurt others. 

Why dream? That's a very strange question. :?  Do you think there is a "reason" behind ideas?  Einstein?  I'll tell you a lot of that reply flabbergasted me.  I can't understand why you're here if not to change the world as we know it.  If you think it can't change why bother trying to believe anything because what difference would it make?  If not for dreams/ideas we would all still be living in caves hunting and gathering!  In my forty years on this planet I have seen things change for the better and I have some confidence the trend will continue after my demise.  I believe it is our duty as human beings to leave the world better than we found it.  In my world that means no more bible, no more religion!!!

I thought you misused the word reality so I used it so you could comprehend what I was saying. ;)

Perception can be proven by logic.  My logic is sound. 

You have to prove that God doesn't exist because it has been the most accepted version of our beginning not the other way around.  We both have the burden of proof!!!  Really think about what you're saying!  If that were true then why have this web site?  When people thought the world was round it had to be proven false before people would believe it!!!  On top of all that it's a cop out.  I think the most important thing either one of us can do is convince people that ancient beliefs do not fit in our modern society and go from there.  Disprove that old bible all you want to.  I'll help you do it.  What I can not do is support the "idea" that there is no "Force".

May The Force be with you,

JB
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline wheels5894

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #33 on: January 02, 2014, 09:04:01 AM »

You have to prove that God doesn't exist because it has been the most accepted version of our beginning not the other way around.  We both have the burden of proof!!!  Really think about what you're saying!  If that were true then why have this web site?  When people thought the world was round it had to be proven false before people would believe it!!!  On top of all that it's a cop out.  I think the most important thing either one of us can do is convince people that ancient beliefs do not fit in our modern society and go from there.  Disprove that old bible all you want to.  I'll help you do it.  What I can not do is support the "idea" that there is no "Force".

May The Force be with you,

JB

Interesting thought, June, but I really can't agree with you. Because a particluar idea has been the main way of thinking about things - that's the god idea - doesn't mean it needs disproving. Rather it means that, becasue of its univerasal acceptance, asking for a simple proof that there is a god should be a doddle. The facts is that there is not good proof.

Back in cosmology, the way we determine how things happened is to do the maths (at it is very, very complicated) to work out how our ideas would work out and then to use what we have to try and predict something and then look for it. For example, Peter Higgs predicted his Higgs Bosun 40 years or more before it was found and its finding confirms part of our theory of matter. In the same way, along before they were found, the Cosmic backgroud Radiation was predicted and it was indeed found and its patterns confirm part of the ideas of how the Big Bang worked.

So now you see how we deal with investigating things we cannot visit, let's see how it works for gods. If a god had created us, then, surely, there ought to be something about the world that we could go out and look for or compare with how we think things might look if there was not a god. For example, if we describe a god who is all-powerful and all-loving we would not expect to see much evil in the world, yet we do. Have a go and see what you could work out for your idea of god.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #34 on: January 02, 2014, 09:14:28 AM »

1. Why not because you say so?  It seems only logical to me that God would be the grand master of science!
Name me one god that can be shown to have ever contributed anything to science.
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2. If it is there conceptually it is there.
You mean that because I can conceive of something, it must be real? I can conceive of a flying leopard that turns into a lamppost every 17 minutes...
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3. bible smible I don't care what the bible says.
OK but I added "Your god might. but then if you invent a god, that god can do anything you want, can't it?" -> you have invented a god.
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4. We are in charge of our own destiny. We are not puppets but humans with minds of our own.
I don't see how this addresses my point: " the god of creation [has] left and gone on to do something else? Or, once having got his "train set" does he spend all day, every day playing with it?
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5. Did you know everything the day you were born?  I bet you would know a lot if you were 14 billion years old!!! and you're human!!!
junebug. This is quite disappointing. How did I learn things? By experience and the experience of others. From whom did your god learn?

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I certainly did not invent God.  No way, no shape, no how!!!
But you dismiss the Bible, so how do you know anything about "your god."? It does seem that you have invented a god. No real harm in that, just as long as you don't start evangelising. ; )

Did the laws of physics exist before humans?  Yelp sure did!!!

I mean if you really want a flying leopard, you study the idea and try to make it happen.  If the information shown shows it can not be done then it can not be done.  If it's what you really want.  Doesn't sound so impossible to me.  Now a flying unicorn would be really hard to comprehend!  The fact is that our existence proves that we are not impossible!!!

The "Force" is there you chose not to use it!!!  I don't believe for 1 second that we are here for amusement!!!  I believe we are here to give purpose to all that space!!!

Yes exactly, experience.  However if you wanted to create a world with millions of life forms don't you think that would take some time or do you just dive right in there?  You're trying to take the answer to a question and twist it around.   I was asked what God was doing for the 14 billion years before planet earth.  I said it was a speculation.  It is a logical speculation to make.  You can't build a house without blueprints but you can't have blueprints w/o the idea.

That one's easy, science.  I have not invented God.  How can you invent something that existed before you were born?  I have a different understanding of a belief that has been around for thousands of years.  On top of all that the bible is not the only book out there on gods.  Come on man!!!  There's Mayan's, Hinduism, Toltec's, Egyptian, Greek, Romans, Vikings, Shinto, etc...man.  Do you really think that if we evolved from an ape that there wouldn't be hieroglyphics of part man part apes on cave walls instead of gods?  They left that there for us for a reason.  You really don't think they wouldn't have noticed the changes to their bodies or did one day the brain just start working on a higher level?   I mean really GB the spiritual mind should grow beside the scientific mind.  If not to me you're missing out on a part of the human experience!!!  You know limiting yourself.  I will not let that darn religion limit my possibilities!

If there is no life after death it also seems like a waste of a lot of space.  I know that's random but that's the junebug. :D

No evangelizing from me.:P 
 
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Online junebug72

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #35 on: January 02, 2014, 10:07:51 AM »
Y'all base every thing you believe on theory not proven fact yet you think I'm childish and naive for doing the same thing.

Hi JB.
I should like to draw a distinction between common-use of the word "theory" which is really "hypothesis," and the scientific use of "theory."

A scientific theory is ...well, from livescience.com (emphases added):

"A scientific theory summarizes a hypothesis or group of hypotheses that have been supported with repeated testing. If enough evidence accumulates to support a hypothesis, it moves to the next step—known as a theory—in the scientific method and becomes accepted as a valid explanation of a phenomenon."

So, when folks say "evolution is just a theory," they're equivocating (logical fallacy), misusing the term "theory" by replacing the above definition--an accepted explanation of phenomenon--with "hypothesis."  What you are suggesting is an hypothesis, not a theory.

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Except God has proven God's existence to me because I have opened my heart and soul to it.

So, to clarify--you believed in God and therefore he proved his existence to you?  I see that as problematically circular: in order to believe, you have to believe?  Am I misrepresenting your statement?

And how many times has either the Big Bang or Evolution "Theories" been tested?   Hard experiment to pull off isn't it?  I have the same problem on my end.  I'm pretty sure when I first introduced my idea I called it a hypothesis.  I guess a little laziness took control.  Sorry.  However since my idea is just an extension and  logically sound I don't feel too bad about using the word theory!

Yes in a way, the second believe is not necessary.  I guess I was trying to sound scholarly, failed project.  It's like turning down a road and discovering where it goes and taking everything in along the way.  Things you wouldn't know if you turned down a different road.  Great thing about life though you can always take other roads.  It's up to you to decide.  It's up to you to take responsibility for how your choices affect others.  To even acknowledge that they do!

In a circle you would end up right back where you started!  I am definitely not the same person now as I was back then.  I am not a cat chasing it's tail, that's what your statement reminds me of. :laugh:  I would have gotten off that road after I realized I wasn't getting anywhere. ;)  Which is what a lot of Christians do.  They get off that road because the religion can not back up it's claims especially the one about God being responsible for the bible.  I took a turn down atheism drive and I didn't like it.  It stunted my spiritual growth just like religion did.  Something I needed to have, still do.  I would not have overcome the tragedies in my life w/o spiritual understanding.  I can only see me as bitter w/o my spiritual side.  Something I'm afraid I encounter way too often here.  Do I still love you, yes i do.  It makes me love you more.  No it's not the same as the love I feel for my family but it's love.  I honestly love mankind enough not to wish Hell upon any of us.  My belief leads me to try and have empathy for all of us.  We all have our tragedies and hopefully some triumphs too!

Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Online junebug72

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #36 on: January 02, 2014, 10:49:41 AM »

You have to prove that God doesn't exist because it has been the most accepted version of our beginning not the other way around.  We both have the burden of proof!!!  Really think about what you're saying!  If that were true then why have this web site?  When people thought the world was round it had to be proven false before people would believe it!!!  On top of all that it's a cop out.  I think the most important thing either one of us can do is convince people that ancient beliefs do not fit in our modern society and go from there.  Disprove that old bible all you want to.  I'll help you do it.  What I can not do is support the "idea" that there is no "Force".

May The Force be with you,

JB

Interesting thought, June, but I really can't agree with you. Because a particluar idea has been the main way of thinking about things - that's the god idea - doesn't mean it needs disproving. Rather it means that, becasue of its univerasal acceptance, asking for a simple proof that there is a god should be a doddle. The facts is that there is not good proof.

Back in cosmology, the way we determine how things happened is to do the maths (at it is very, very complicated) to work out how our ideas would work out and then to use what we have to try and predict something and then look for it. For example, Peter Higgs predicted his Higgs Bosun 40 years or more before it was found and its finding confirms part of our theory of matter. In the same way, along before they were found, the Cosmic backgroud Radiation was predicted and it was indeed found and its patterns confirm part of the ideas of how the Big Bang worked.

So now you see how we deal with investigating things we cannot visit, let's see how it works for gods. If a god had created us, then, surely, there ought to be something about the world that we could go out and look for or compare with how we think things might look if there was not a god. For example, if we describe a god who is all-powerful and all-loving we would not expect to see much evil in the world, yet we do. Have a go and see what you could work out for your idea of god.

Hey Wheels,

I see no planet earth or us w/o intelligence existing first.  How that intelligence is contained can be debated but that the intelligence existed I don't see how it could.  I see the extinction of the dinosaur as evidence, our protective atmosphere,  our precise location to the sun,  DNA,  the incredible human mind, body, and spirit,  photosynthesis, the magnetic field, our gravitational pull, all this I see as evidence of a great scientific mind at work.  Notice that bold, more evidence.  The fact that math answers questions is evidence of intelligence to me.  Do you think the universe just made us w/o calculations.  To calculate you need a calculator; a brilliant mind.   A mind that is much more advanced than our own! 
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Boots

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #37 on: January 02, 2014, 11:44:02 AM »
Hey Wheels,

I see no planet earth or us w/o intelligence existing first.  How that intelligence is contained can be debated but that the intelligence existed I don't see how it could.  I see the extinction of the dinosaur as evidence, our protective atmosphere,  our precise location to the sun,  DNA,  the incredible human mind, body, and spirit,  photosynthesis, the magnetic field, our gravitational pull, all this I see as evidence of a great scientific mind at work.  Notice that bold, more evidence.  The fact that math answers questions is evidence of intelligence to me.  Do you think the universe just made us w/o calculations.  To calculate you need a calculator; a brilliant mind.   A mind that is much more advanced than our own!

JB,
two things.
1) I've said this before, and it went badly last time, but I'll try again.  Saying this (emphasis added):
"I see no planet earth or us w/o intelligence existing first"
is a textbook example of the logical fallacy "Argument from Incredulity," otherwise known as "Argument from Ignorance."  Simply because you cannot fathom another explanation, does not mean there isn't one.  Please note I'm not calling you ignorant as an epithet, I'm using the term as it applies to every human on the planet: we are all ignorant of how things began.  Theists' insertion of god into that ignorance is a logical fallacy.

2) Your argument boils down to something Douglas Adams talked about.  Taken from wiki

"Imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, 'This is an interesting world I find myself in — an interesting hole I find myself in — fits me rather neatly, doesn't it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!' "

Similarly in Christopher Hitchins' "god is not Great," he talks about a nun he had as a teacher when he was a boy, who satated that "God made so many things green because green is so pleasing to our eyes!"  Even as a child, he understood she had everything backwards; green is pleasing to our eyes because so much "good" (for us) out there is green.

You've taken our existance, which while astronomically unlikely still happened (making that chance 100%) an dturned it around as some sort of evidence for a creator.  I ask, why would a creator who loves life, have made a universe so dreadfully inhospitable to life, that the only place we know of that can hold it is this infinitisimal speck of mud?  If the universe were in fact fine-tuned for life, we should expect to see the entire universe teaming with it.  Instead, we see an insignificant mote of it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad you can take some solace/happiness in your beliefs.  I'm disappointed, though, that it takes this kind of thought process to attain that solace/happiness, when you could be getting it just from what's around you.  *shrug*
It's one of the reasons I'm an atheist today.  I decided to take my religion seriously, and that's when it started to fall apart for me.
~jdawg70

Offline Boots

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #38 on: January 02, 2014, 11:46:54 AM »
And how many times has either the Big Bang or Evolution "Theories" been tested?   Hard experiment to pull off isn't it? 

Big Bang: true, but they're trying with that big ol' collider.

Evolution: many, many times.
It's one of the reasons I'm an atheist today.  I decided to take my religion seriously, and that's when it started to fall apart for me.
~jdawg70

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #39 on: January 02, 2014, 11:53:36 AM »
...Do you really think that if we evolved from an ape that there wouldn't be hieroglyphics of part man part apes on cave walls instead of gods?  They left that there for us for a reason.  You really don't think they wouldn't have noticed the changes to their bodies or did one day the brain just start working on a higher level?...

No. Evolution works VERY slowly. No one would have noticed these things at all, because they were happening on a cosmic timeframe, not over a generation or two.
If we ever travel thousands of light years to a planet inhabited by intelligent life, let's just make patterns in their crops and leave.

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #40 on: January 02, 2014, 12:05:30 PM »
You can not prove your reality either.  The Big Bang is a theory, evolution "theory" and neither explain the complexity of the planet or the human body.  None of us can travel back through time and bring back evidence of our origins.  All any of us can do is speculate.  What I don't find necessary is to use God's name to control mankind or to criticize/hurt others. 

Junebug, it appears to me that you are describing the reality you want to be true, and ignoring everything that is contrary to that.

Theories are the strongest statement science can make. They are not casual comments. And we can go back in time. If not literally, then via geology and peering deep into space, where the light that is reaching us can be 10's of billions of years old.

Things that are possible that you would like include the idea that life on earth was seeded from other sources. That it didn't originate here, but elsewhere in the universe. Now sadly, that doesn't mean that we think superior beings landed in their flying saucers and made a garden or anything. Its just that either the building blocks of life or life itself managed to survive running around in space for a few million years and landed here when the conditions were right. But we can't yet go back in time and check out that one.

All of us speculate. But scientists with the curiosity and the equipment necessary have done more than sit around and guess. They have looked for and found evidence that appears to at least partially explain a lot of our questions. The problem is, if you are hoping for a specific answer and it isn't showing up in the scientific journals, you either have to change your hopes or diss the findings because you don't like them. And simply not liking them does not automatically make them false.

I wish the universe was different that it is. I wish earth, and especially humans, were different than they are. However, I have yet to find a reason to decide that my wishes are real and a that reality is wrong to ignore them. I don't for a second think that I have that much pull with the universe.

There is too much evidence for evolution to dismiss it readily. And if the big bang is not the source of our universe, and new theories are found, you will probably have to dismiss them as quickly as you do the current theory, because they are no more likely to match your wishes. Life is seldom that convenient.

I have many friends who look at the universe the way you do, and I love them dearly despite our differences on the subject. Because neither they, or you, are telling me I'm going to hell because I disagree. That really helps.
Jesus, the cracker flavored treat!

Offline Chronos

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #41 on: January 02, 2014, 01:59:34 PM »
When I say we control our own destiny I mean mankind as a whole.  Mankind can chose to eliminate nuclear weapons, we can chose to use less fossil fuels, we can also chose not to build homes next to the river/build them to withstand floods and winds.  We can chose to stop arguing over beliefs.

If you mean to say humans can choose to do smarter things rather than dumber ones, then good luck with that happening.

The very essence of discussing whether a god exists, a god that you have no way to prove, is a rather dumb thing to do. It's a waste of time. If you had proof that a god exists and you wanted to discuss your proof, that would not be a waste of time. The problem is that you just want a god to exist and therefore it does. No proof. Any contradiction to your assertion is met by an impenetrable surface.

Let's discuss the existence of leprechauns and fairies. How about the Loch Ness Monster? The Bermuda Triangle? I cannot prove any of them, and to try to say they exist is a complete waste of time. I do not have to disprove them, either.


You can not prove your reality either. 

I can prove what I see or touch. I can prove mathematical equations. I can prove distance between two places. I can prove what happens when you combine two chemicals. Etc, etc, etc. I do not posit that a god exists, therefore I am not required to prove that a god exists.

Since you posit that a god exists, you are the one who is required to prove that a god is reality. You cannot do so, but you persist in perpetuating a notion that your god exists regardless of your lack of proof. While your position that there is a god is hardly unique, it's still stunning in its vacuousness. You might as well say you believe in little people living inside the walls of your home that come out and steal bites of food in the middle of the night.

If the delusion of a god were not shared by so many people, it would warrant a stay in a mental institution.


The Big Bang is a theory, evolution "theory" and neither explain the complexity of the planet or the human body.

Your lack of understanding of the big bang theory, the theory of evolution or the word "theory" leaves a lot to be desired. Apparently you like to remain ignorant of these things -- Wikipedia is a click away. The big bang theory is not a theory that has been used or will be used to explain the complexity of one ecosystem (the planet earth) or the human body or any other animal or plant. The theory of evolution explains and demonstrates the changes that have occurred over time in many animals and plants.


None of us can travel back through time and bring back evidence of our origins.  All any of us can do is speculate.  What I don't find necessary is to use God's name to control mankind or to criticize/hurt others.

Einstein proved that we cannot travel backward in time, so you are correct. However, just because I cannot travel backward in time does not mean that I cannot prove that you were born, to whom, on which date and where. There are records of your existence just like there are records of the existence of many animals and plants both living and extinct. If knowledge were limited to things that were only forward-looking, mankind would not have learned anything at all.


Why dream? That's a very strange question. :?  Do you think there is a "reason" behind ideas?  Einstein?  I'll tell you a lot of that reply flabbergasted me.  I can't understand why you're here if not to change the world as we know it.  If you think it can't change why bother trying to believe anything because what difference would it make?

You can dream all you want, but if you can't back up your dreams with some reality then you will never be able to accomplish your dreams. If your dreams have no basis in reality, then why have them? JK Rowling certainly daydreamed a lot about a character named Harry Potter, but she was writing a book of fiction so that she could sell it, entertain others and earn money on which to live. Rick Warren daydreamed about a character named "God" and/or "Jesus Christ" and wrote A Purpose Driven Life to sell to others as fact, not fiction. Rowling clearly identifies what she is selling; Warren does not. The average delusional Christian always expects to get a bye on reality so that their works are non-fiction:




If not for dreams/ideas we would all still be living in caves hunting and gathering!

Fire is not a dream, it is a discovery. However, cooking food is an idea. A dream is living somewhere warm and dry: a home. Each of those is based on reality, not unreality.


In my forty years on this planet I have seen things change for the better and I have some confidence the trend will continue after my demise.  I believe it is our duty as human beings to leave the world better than we found it.  In my world that means no more bible, no more religion!!!

In my 47 years on the planet, some things are better, some are worse, some never changed. I'm not sure what your point is.


I thought you misused the word reality so I used it so you could comprehend what I was saying. ;)

That's your perception, I suppose.


Perception can be proven by logic.  My logic is sound. 

Your logic is not logic. I am not sure you are capable of discussing things in a logical way, at least with regard to your worldview. You are using emotions as the structures for your thoughts. Emotion inhibits logic. You want there to be a god, just not an organized religion, but you have no logical basis for proving that a god exists other than I just want it to be that way. That is not logic.

Physical perspective can be proven by logic, just ask any crime scene reconstructor. Perception is merely how you interpret what you see, hear or touch. I cannot prove that your visualization of the color red is just like my visualization of the color red. However, I can prove that the color we both see is a reflection of light of a specific wavelength equating to an international standard for "red".


You have to prove that God doesn't exist because it has been the most accepted version of our beginning not the other way around.

By your own word ^ you have proven that you are not able to engage in logical thoughts.

Anyone who is capable of logical thinking knows that the person who posits something must be the one to prove it, not the other way around.


We both have the burden of proof!!!

Again, by your own word ^ you have proven that you are not able to engage in logical thoughts. You would fail any introductory course of philosophy.


Really think about what you're saying!

Your reply is an example of projection: a defense mechanism in which a person unconsciously rejects his or her own unacceptable attributes by ascribing them to objects or persons in the outside world.


If that were true then why have this web site?

The owner of this website created it in order to express his dismay at wide-scale delusional thinking.


When people thought the world was round it had to be proven false before people would believe it!!!  On top of all that it's a cop out.

Whaaa?


I think the most important thing either one of us can do is convince people that ancient beliefs do not fit in our modern society and go from there.

And an ancient belief is that there have been gods.

Jeez. Do you ever say out loud the words you type?


Disprove that old bible all you want to.  I'll help you do it.  What I can not do is support the "idea" that there is no "Force".

May The Force be with you,

JB


And that's all she wrote!


John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Offline Ataraxia

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #42 on: January 03, 2014, 08:49:03 AM »
I see no planet earth or us w/o intelligence existing first.  How that intelligence is contained can be debated but that the intelligence existed I don't see how it could.  I see the extinction of the dinosaur as evidence, our protective atmosphere,  our precise location to the sun,  DNA,  the incredible human mind, body, and spirit,  photosynthesis, the magnetic field, our gravitational pull, all this I see as evidence of a great scientific mind at work.  Notice that bold, more evidence.  The fact that math answers questions is evidence of intelligence to me.  Do you think the universe just made us w/o calculations.  To calculate you need a calculator; a brilliant mind.   A mind that is much more advanced than our own!

Here you are turning maths and science into god and god into something indistinguishable from an advanced alien race that can take the knowledge they have of science and maths and create a complex planetary system.
"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." - Voltaire

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #43 on: January 03, 2014, 08:57:48 AM »
I don't believe in God because I want to.  I do not deny science I embrace it.  I do not misunderstand science either.  I am just saying by itself it does not explain everything.  There are still questions.  Questions you all should be asking too.  I am open minded.  As far as the argument from ignorance, I will never concede to that.  Unless you would like to as well.  We are arguing from the same knowledge.  I'm just finishing the story where you prefer to leave blanks.  On top of that my experience as a believer has been rewarding and positive not only for me but for all the people that cross my path. 

Some mental health pro's would say y'all are the delusional ones.  I know one imparticular, Pia Melody.  She even goes as far to say it is child abuse not to nourish your child's spiritual side.  She does not promote religion.  She specializes in Co-Dependency.  At AA meetings they pray the serenity prayer.  That prayer helps many people accept the things they can not change, courage to face what they can and wisdom to know the difference!   Try telling them God doesn't exist.

Yelp if you're going to call someone delusional you should back that up with proof.  There is not 1 psychiatrist out there that would treat me for delusions!   I doubt they would ya'll either!  So let's just say we are not delusional. 

Traveler,

That's fine.  We can discuss the validity of evolution later.  That's not what this thread is about. ;)


This thread is getting off track.  We are supposed to be discussing the possibility of a god being formed within the dense matter that caused the Big Bang!  If that is possible and I'm sure it is,  then I am not delusional but quite real and proves how very logical I can be about the existence of God. 

Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #44 on: January 03, 2014, 09:19:44 AM »
Sorry, June, but i for one can't go with the idea of a god being formed from the Big Bang / Big Bounce. If you find it improbable that intelligent humans could have been formed during the life of the universe and through natural processes such as evolution, then the probablity of a god (read super powerful, super intelligent being) being formed right after the Big Bang / Bounce, if even more improbable.

The snag with filling in gaps in our knowledge with a  god is that those gaps are slowing being closed so that, over time, god gets squashed out.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #45 on: January 03, 2014, 09:30:27 AM »
I see no planet earth or us w/o intelligence existing first.  How that intelligence is contained can be debated but that the intelligence existed I don't see how it could.  I see the extinction of the dinosaur as evidence, our protective atmosphere,  our precise location to the sun,  DNA,  the incredible human mind, body, and spirit,  photosynthesis, the magnetic field, our gravitational pull, all this I see as evidence of a great scientific mind at work.  Notice that bold, more evidence.  The fact that math answers questions is evidence of intelligence to me.  Do you think the universe just made us w/o calculations.  To calculate you need a calculator; a brilliant mind.   A mind that is much more advanced than our own!

Here you are turning maths and science into god and god into something indistinguishable from an advanced alien race that can take the knowledge they have of science and maths and create a complex planetary system.

Well I'd certainly buy that over the biblical explanation! 

I am not turning math and science into god.  I'm saying that God used them like we do on a larger scale.  I'm saying these laws existed before us or our planet.  I do not see how either one creates life individually with out an operator.  If not for these laws our existence would not be possible.  Y'all are the ones turning God into science not me.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #46 on: January 03, 2014, 09:52:38 AM »
Sorry, June, but i for one can't go with the idea of a god being formed from the Big Bang / Big Bounce. If you find it improbable that intelligent humans could have been formed during the life of the universe and through natural processes such as evolution, then the probablity of a god (read super powerful, super intelligent being) being formed right after the Big Bang / Bounce, if even more improbable.

The snag with filling in gaps in our knowledge with a  god is that those gaps are slowing being closed so that, over time, god gets squashed out.

You are still not understanding the concept Wheels.  I did not say right after I said inside it. 

Does the Big Bang Theory not state that all matter was condensed into a relatively tiny space in comparison to what is now the universe?   All the planets, stars, all that we know was condensed and after a while all that energy built up and then BOOM there's the universe.  Planets and stars begin to form....da da da da da. 

Now that we have that information I'm saying that while this matter, all that is necessary for life, is so condensed a super being could have formed.  A super being us earthlings call God.   

Now just let me see that you understand the hypothesis before I continue. 

God will never get squashed out!!!  Hopefully a better understanding will get squashed in!  Religion hopefully so!  There are just a few churches out of hundreds here that fill their parking lots.  They are very out spoken anti gay people.  The next most successful churches here are the modern day thinkers.  They love everybody.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #47 on: January 03, 2014, 11:19:38 AM »
Does the Big Bang Theory not state that all matter was condensed into a relatively tiny space in comparison to what is now the universe?   All the planets, stars, all that we know was condensed and after a while all that energy built up and then BOOM there's the universe.  Planets and stars begin to form....da da da da da. 

Now that we have that information I'm saying that while this matter, all that is necessary for life, is so condensed a super being could have formed.  A super being us earthlings call God.   

So, you're saying that you DON'T buy that the Big Bang could have eventually led by itself to the complexity of life we see, but you DO buy that it could have spontaneously formed a Super Being capable of creating that complexity--which means that it has pretty significant complexity?

Quote from: junebug72
I do not deny science I embrace it.  I do not misunderstand science either.  I am just saying by itself it does not explain everything.  There are still questions.  Questions you all should be asking too.  I am open minded.  As far as the argument from ignorance, I will never concede to that.  Unless you would like to as well.  We are arguing from the same knowledge.  I'm just finishing the story where you prefer to leave blanks.


emphasis added.

that last statement itself proves that you

* are arguing from ignorance.  You're "finishing the story" with made-up stuff.  I am content to say "I don't know, but I see no reason to insert a made-up god in the blank spaces."  Of course I concede that I'm ignorant of whether there could possibly ever have been a god-like creature.  But I'm not willing to sya "I don't know, therefore god" as you have done.  This *is* the definition of "Argument from Ignorance"

* do misunderstand science.  Science leaves blanks, but strives to fill them with data and evidence-based explanations, whereas you are content to fill them with wishful thinking.
It's one of the reasons I'm an atheist today.  I decided to take my religion seriously, and that's when it started to fall apart for me.
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #48 on: January 03, 2014, 11:57:32 AM »
Quote
2. If it is there conceptually it is there.
You mean that because I can conceive of something, it must be real? I can conceive of a flying leopard that turns into a lamppost every 17 minutes...
I mean if you really want a flying leopard, you study the idea and try to make it happen.  If the information shown shows it can not be done then it can not be done.  If it's what you really want.  Doesn't sound so impossible to me.  Now a flying unicorn would be really hard to comprehend!  The fact is that our existence proves that we are not impossible!!!
I think this is where you lose your audience. You, at first say
Quote
2. If it is there conceptually it is there.
Then you say
Quote
If the information shown shows it cannot be done then it can not be done.

The problem here is that your argument at first depended upon being able to conceive of something means that it must exist, but then it descended to reality when you wrote If the information shown shows it cannot be done then it can not be done. and you have admitted that the first argument was wrong.

In doing this, you destroy your argument for any god.

The other thing is, you seem unable to be consistent: either you believe that Yahweh is as described in the Bible (which is the only mention and description we have) or you believe in a god that might be a little similar to Yahweh but is nothing like Yahweh of the Bible.

If it is the latter, then you have "made up" a god, and there would seem to be no way for you to deny it, as your god is certainly not Yahweh. Of course you could always show that the translation from the Ancient Hebrew as made by scholars over the millennia is wrong, and that you are correct... however, that might take a little time.

I doubt you will understand this next part: "If Elves are not real and dragons are not real? How do we know that elves and dragons are not the same thing?" I ask you this as you could tell an elf from a dragon although neither exist. In the same way, you should be able to tell your invented god from the god that the Bible has invented.

I think it would be of genuine help if you were less enthusiastic in putting forward unlikely explanations as quickly as you can type and stuck to the more accepted ones. Failing that, a critical re-reading before pressing the "Post" button would save a lot of us from having to explain things.
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #49 on: January 03, 2014, 12:01:00 PM »
I don't believe in God because I want to.  I do not deny science I embrace it.  I do not misunderstand science either.  I am just saying by itself it does not explain everything.  There are still questions.  Questions you all should be asking too.  I am open minded.  As far as the argument from ignorance, I will never concede to that.  Unless you would like to as well.  <snip>

Good morning, Junebug. I'm glad you embrace science, because then you can support your hypothesis using science and not the process we often see where people punt to the unknown the moment their claims are questioned. Can we please see how far we can get in your explanation using known science before we hit the wall of "unknown"?

You say you don't believe in god because you want to. Thus, you don't look for an explanation to appeal to you, satisfy what you want to be true? You can accept an explanation that does not include god even if it is emotionally unsatisfying? Is that correct?

As far as the argument from ignorance, you still seem to be confused. Conceding that one does not know something (is ignorant in that matter) does mean you are using ignorance in a fallacious manner. Not knowing is what drives science. As Dara O'Brian put it "Science knows it doesn't know everything; otherwise, it'd stop."

It's the manner with which one appeals to mystery or the unknown as a way to keep a claim alive that makes the argument fallacious. As an example, appeals to be "open-minded" are often used by believers in pseudoscience to mask appeals to ignorance. I'm linking to a video below that is a wonderful explanation on what is, and is not, reasonable use of the term.

Quote
Does the Big Bang Theory not state that all matter was condensed into a relatively tiny space in comparison to what is now the universe?   All the planets, stars, all that we know was condensed and after a while all that energy built up and then BOOM there's the universe.  Planets and stars begin to form....da da da da da.

No, not really. At least not in a manner that is anything other than a strawman or an overly-simplistic (no offence intended) description that avoids detail present in cosmological models that describe the formation of the universe from the tiniest fragment of a second after the Big Bang until today.

Also, "energy" did not "build up" in the sense you seem to be applying. You've made this allusion before with "condensed" and getting stronger. Sorry, JB, but I don't think you really understand what happened in the model to which you refer, which makes your explanation questionable.

But look, this thread isn't about defining the big bang. You stated you had a hypothesis. Well, that's one of these:

Quote
A hypothesis (plural hypotheses) is a proposed explanation for a phenomenon. For a hypothesis to be a scientific hypothesis, the scientific method requires that one can test it.

Now you've said "This Is Possible". Well, lots of things are "possible" if you misuse and abuse the term "possible". It's "possible" that less than 8 minutes ago the sun exploded. In fact, seeing as we have a mechanism of action as to why we might not yet be aware of that, I'm going to posit that it even though is absurdly unlikely to have happened, it's still almost infinitely more likely to be true than any claim where someone simply says "It's Possible!" because I should keep an open mind to it being possible. But I say that only based on your not yet having provided the detail as to how it is possible.

So, embracing science, please help us all understand:
  • what is "god" made from?
  • how was "god" made?
  • at what point in the big bang was god made?
  • what did "god" do then?
  • what does "god" do now?
  • the mechanism by which "god" accomplishes his tasks?
  • how we go about testing that?

If you can't do that, then you don't have an hypothesis. You don't even have a conjecture. What you have is an unsupported assertion expressed in the form of a wish or a belief.[1]





edit: corrected much bad grammar
 1. There's nothing inherently wrong in wishes or beliefs. But, equally, they don't change into something else simply by claiming that "it's possible".
« Last Edit: January 03, 2014, 12:51:52 PM by xyzzy »
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool -- Richard Feynman
You are in a maze of twisty little religions, all alike -- xyzzy

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #50 on: January 03, 2014, 04:54:43 PM »
Y'all just don't know how much I enjoy talking to guys about this stuff.  Most Christians I know seem so uncomfortable listening or discussing my beliefs.  My own family looks at me like I'm on the highway to hell.  My great grandmother was a church of god preacher.  She died before I was born.

OK OK I understand the argument from ignorance term now.  You're saying that claiming there is a God is arguing from ignorance because it is used to explain the unknown.  I'm guilty as charged.   However, since joining this web site I have dove deeper and deeper into what I think reality is.  I thoroughly enjoy the challenge.  I know I could be wrong I hope that I'm right.  Does that prove God exists no it doesn't but it does prove that you can believe in God w/o religious guidance and w/o being an a hole.

The only reason I even began this quest is because I couldn't believe in the bible or any other religion but I could not rule out God.  Also atheism did not fulfill my need.  I've been through some shit man.  Latest on the list cancer. 

Xyzzy,

Very good comeback my man.  I know this is going to sound like a cop out but i don't have a lab.  I don't have access to the past.  I don't believe if God exists that God would want us to know that much about it.  Look how much we have learned trying to discover Truth.  I would probably enjoy such a quest though. ;)  It is definitely one of the regrets in my life.  You know not exploring more.  I ain't getting on no airplane! 

All I know is it seems like a great honor to receive this knowledge after death.  Something like that would make this struggle through life fair.  If we knew things for sure then it wouldn't really be a choice would it; right and wrong that is.

Boots if you're coming up with blanks and you're okay with it; who am I to judge?  I do not state however that what I claim is absolute truth.  I only claim there is logic inspiring belief not ignorance or delusions.   

GB,

You can be so condescending!  Man that gets on my nerves.  People skills, people skills! :laugh: 

This reply-
Quote
The problem here is that your argument at first depended upon being able to conceive of something means that it must exist, but then it descended to reality when you wrote If the information shown shows it cannot be done then it can not be done. and you have admitted that the first argument was wrong.

shows you misquote me... I did not say it was not possible to invent a flying leopard.  I said I would find it harder to believe you could make a flying unicorn.  A flying leopard seems possible.  We already crossbreed plants and make goats and cows why not a flying leopard!!! :laugh:

Also your use of the word "must" is very out of place.  The only thing I meant to say was that you have to be inspired with an idea before you draw the blueprints.  I never said if you can conceive it, it must be true.

I have been very consistent in saying I do not believe the bible.  The only thing I have in common with that book is a claim that I believe in God.  Christianity is in fact one of the youngest religions in the world.   

You could learn a lot from xyzzy. 
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #51 on: January 04, 2014, 02:02:59 PM »
You say you don't believe in god because you want to. Thus, you don't look for an explanation to appeal to you, satisfy what you want to be true? You can accept an explanation that does not include god even if it is emotionally unsatisfying? Is that correct?

The only reason I even began this quest is because I couldn't believe in the bible or any other religion but I could not rule out God.  Also atheism did not fulfill my need.  I've been through some shit man.  Latest on the list cancer. 

Junebug, what need did atheism not fulfill in your life, and how did it not?

Secondary to that, atheism is a rejection of the claim of the existence of gods / the supernatural. If that is not the definition you are using, please explain what you meant by atheism.

Also, in terms of belief, please do reference forum member OldChurchGuy for an example of someone who is extremely well liked and respected on this board. I bring this up just so we are all clear that belief absent-proof is not automatically a naughty word in these circles.

I have some other comments to come back to, but I don't want us to go off in too many directions at once.
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool -- Richard Feynman
You are in a maze of twisty little religions, all alike -- xyzzy

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #52 on: January 05, 2014, 11:42:23 AM »
You say you don't believe in god because you want to. Thus, you don't look for an explanation to appeal to you, satisfy what you want to be true? You can accept an explanation that does not include god even if it is emotionally unsatisfying? Is that correct?

The only reason I even began this quest is because I couldn't believe in the bible or any other religion but I could not rule out God.  Also atheism did not fulfill my need.  I've been through some shit man.  Latest on the list cancer. 

Junebug, what need did atheism not fulfill in your life, and how did it not?

Secondary to that, atheism is a rejection of the claim of the existence of gods / the supernatural. If that is not the definition you are using, please explain what you meant by atheism.

Also, in terms of belief, please do reference forum member OldChurchGuy for an example of someone who is extremely well liked and respected on this board. I bring this up just so we are all clear that belief absent-proof is not automatically a naughty word in these circles.

I have some other comments to come back to, but I don't want us to go off in too many directions at once.

I'm quite sick and in a bad mood this morning so I'm going to be short and sweet.  OldChurchGuy does not debate.  He barely makes a paragraph.  So where y'all may respect him more than me at least I've got guts and respect for myself.  Plus do you think he is delusional for believing in  God?  That is a direct question.  You can't respect someone you claim is delusional.  I deserve your respect and it shows a characteristic flaw on y'alls part for not giving it, not mine!!!

Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #53 on: January 05, 2014, 11:53:49 AM »
You say you don't believe in god because you want to. Thus, you don't look for an explanation to appeal to you, satisfy what you want to be true? You can accept an explanation that does not include god even if it is emotionally unsatisfying? Is that correct?

The only reason I even began this quest is because I couldn't believe in the bible or any other religion but I could not rule out God.  Also atheism did not fulfill my need.  I've been through some shit man.  Latest on the list cancer. 

Junebug, what need did atheism not fulfill in your life, and how did it not?

Secondary to that, atheism is a rejection of the claim of the existence of gods / the supernatural. If that is not the definition you are using, please explain what you meant by atheism.

Also, in terms of belief, please do reference forum member OldChurchGuy for an example of someone who is extremely well liked and respected on this board. I bring this up just so we are all clear that belief absent-proof is not automatically a naughty word in these circles.

I have some other comments to come back to, but I don't want us to go off in too many directions at once.

What need didn't get filled?  Emotional healing from the abuse of my childhood.  We use the term atheism the same way.  A broken heart is what made me give up on belief and is also what led me back to it! 

If the only way to get respect around here is to give up belief or just make random remarks here and there you can keep it.  Maybe I should quit showing y'all respect to even the score but I have never believed 2 wrongs make a right!!!!

The OCG does not challenge y'all the way I do.  No offense meant to you OCG!   Like how does he answer all the questions here?  What does he say about god allowing suffering?  Where does he say God comes from?  Does he cherry pick the bible or not believe the bible?  Does he believe we're going to hell?   You know we are both in their sights for eternal damnation don't you? 

You're going to have to help me out here I don't have access to anything but the shelter, just a click away..lol :laugh:

« Last Edit: January 05, 2014, 01:10:05 PM by junebug72 »
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #54 on: January 05, 2014, 12:58:08 PM »
I just need to add 1 thing,being atheist did not turn me into a monster or a condescending jerk.  I just felt after a while, 7-8 years, that something was missing.:blank:

You know when it gets to the point in a debate that you have to start insinuating a lack of respect for your opponent it usually means quite the opposite.   It means your opponent is so tough you have nothing else to say.

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Saw them live 3 times!!! Awesome,  I rocked my arse off!!!  First time I gave myself whoop lash. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline xyzzy

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #55 on: January 05, 2014, 09:37:36 PM »
You know when it gets to the point in a debate that you have to start insinuating a lack of respect for your opponent it usually means quite the opposite.   It means your opponent is so tough you have nothing else to say.

Junebug, if you mean similar to the way that you put words into other people's mouths and place yourself in the role of a victim, yes I would agree with you. I don't think this discussion will get much further at this rate but I'll try.

Before we get too much further, a suggestion. I would ask that you read this through to the end. Please don't respond to a part and not read the rest. Also, perhaps write your response offline. Read it. Reread it. Throw it away. Then start again. ;) I think you may be surprised how many people don't use their first drafts. I'm already on round two three, myself.

Speaking about needs. Do you not see that you have constructed a god around what you want to believe to be true? It has been said before, this is a god that is entirely of your own making and it only exists in your world.

I'm sorry to be harsh, but you have no support for your position being anything other than what you would like to be true. We'll get back to that but it's OK to dream, it's OK to wish, it's when you start trying to claim that your beliefs are on par with what we can prove that you get onto slippery ice. If it's this important to you that your god is real, I suggest to you that it's important for you to prove it, not just assert it.

We've heard that this god is possible yet, when asked how we can determine that, you conveniently tell us that that you don't have access to the past or a lab, as if that somehow allows your god to be real yet unchallenged. In your world, maybe. In this place, that's not how it works.

But, yes we do have a time machine, and yes we do have a lab. 

The time machine is the universe with the prevailing cosmological theory of the Big Bang,Wiki we have the cosmic microwave background,Wiki we have spacecraft that have now left the building solar system,Wiki we have deep space observations from Hubble,Wiki and much, much, more.

The lab, too, is the universe and all that is around us. Theory has predictive power - it has to - and we can test those predictions. One also can use thought experimentsWiki - just working through a condition asking "If I do x, then what happens? OK, now what?". "Here's what I find - does my theory account for all that it should? Not just a bit here and there but all that it should?" If it doesn't, then more work needs to be done.

Anything that you propose has to provide clarity above and beyond what we have today. I know that that's a tall order, but I'm not the one claiming that something else is the answer. Nor am I saying that these theories don't provide enough answers.

Now for JB's god, you start off with a conclusion: a loving god who cares about you, has opposite views on sexual orientation to the (same?) god you used to believe hated you, and just generally fits with the fluffy bunny and cute kitten world that you wish we all inhabited; and then, arbitrarily, declare it possible through a series of fallacies and leaps of logic that would astound even Rudolf Nureyev. As far as I can tell, that's all you have. Assertions, your own definitions, and hope. Note, I'm not dissing you - I'm just being clear on the fact that you have consistently not provided anything else of substance.

But it's OK to dream.

If it's important to you to believe that there is a heaven waiting, that there is a power looking after you, that's entirely your right. Most of us here have friends who have similar outlooks on life.

My concern comes in when people try to force their beliefs on others, particularly when those beliefs are an impediment to progress or a harmonious society. Now the preceding doesn't apply to you, but I do care when I see people who do themselves a disservice by denying the power that they have within themselves.

When someone thanks "a higher power" for helping them get off drugs, they devalue their own contribution.

When someone says they couldn't have got through a difficult situation without some god's love, they wrongly attribute the origin of their strength. Later, when faced with other adversity, they are now dependent on this belief not realising that they've only just begun to tap their own power. Failure then becomes a personal let down from this god, which can lead to a downward spiral.

When someone tells me that they look forward to a life after this one, I would hate to think that they might miss an opportunity to relish every possible experience that they might have - in the only life we know for certain exists.

You didn't ask, but that's why I care and, even if you doubt it, that's probably why we all care about you.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2014, 11:07:45 PM by xyzzy »
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool -- Richard Feynman
You are in a maze of twisty little religions, all alike -- xyzzy

Offline Ataraxia

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #56 on: January 06, 2014, 05:30:31 AM »
I see no planet earth or us w/o intelligence existing first.  How that intelligence is contained can be debated but that the intelligence existed I don't see how it could.  I see the extinction of the dinosaur as evidence, our protective atmosphere,  our precise location to the sun,  DNA,  the incredible human mind, body, and spirit,  photosynthesis, the magnetic field, our gravitational pull, all this I see as evidence of a great scientific mind at work.  Notice that bold, more evidence.  The fact that math answers questions is evidence of intelligence to me.  Do you think the universe just made us w/o calculations.  To calculate you need a calculator; a brilliant mind.   A mind that is much more advanced than our own!

Here you are turning maths and science into god and god into something indistinguishable from an advanced alien race that can take the knowledge they have of science and maths and create a complex planetary system.

Well I'd certainly buy that over the biblical explanation!

They are as unsubstantiated as one another. 

Quote
I am not turning math and science into god.  I'm saying that God used them like we do on a larger scale.  I'm saying these laws existed before us or our planet.  I do not see how either one creates life individually with out an operator.  If not for these laws our existence would not be possible.  Y'all are the ones turning God into science not me.

You're saying that these laws existed before god too, and that he used them. He didn't create them, he used them, ergo you are making these laws more godlike than god.

And who is "y'all"? I speak for me and me alone. Nowhere have I claimed science is god, so please don't misrepresent me.
"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." - Voltaire

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #57 on: January 06, 2014, 07:51:33 AM »
Xyzzy,  Should I have bolded the questions?

I did not invent God I just took the bible out of the equation.  I am proud of every word I've posted.  My beliefs don't hurt you or anybody else, not even me.  That's the way belief should be;  Harmless! ;)  The bible is not harmless.

If I, a mortal, can be loving then I am certain that our immortal creator is loving x 100! If God exists!

That's all you get until you answer my questions. :blank:

Or you can go ahead and admit you lack respect for us both because we believe in God!  Or you're problem with me is I'm too darn sweet!  Neither a good reason to disrespect someone!
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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