Author Topic: This Is Possible!  (Read 3740 times)

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Offline junebug72

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This Is Possible!
« on: December 28, 2013, 08:11:20 AM »
Good morning and thanks for reading!!! :)

First let me give credit to all the people here for the inspiration!

If the Big Bang is possible then it seems to me it is also possible that a supreme being,God, could have been produced from there as well!

My definition of condensed means more powerful and stronger!  All the matter/elements needed to create life was right there inside that very, very, very...highly condensed object.

It is possible! 
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline jetson

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2013, 09:11:51 AM »
It may be possible, but do you believe that the result of this "possibility", was the creation of the YHWH character written about in the Bible?  I mean, did the Big Bang literally create a supreme being that needed to smell burnt animal flesh, and had to flood this particular planet because the humans displeased him?  Was all of this really about a supreme being, and the planet earth?  Keep in mind, the earth as a planet is only 4.5 billion years old, and the universe is almost 14 billion years old.  What was YHWH doing for the first 9 billion years?

Offline Chronos

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2013, 11:21:16 AM »
If the Big Bang is possible then it seems to me it is also possible that a supreme being,God, could have been produced from there as well!

"God" could not have created the universe if the universe created "him".

John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Offline junebug72

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2013, 09:24:44 AM »
It may be possible, but do you believe that the result of this "possibility", was the creation of the YHWH character written about in the Bible?  I mean, did the Big Bang literally create a supreme being that needed to smell burnt animal flesh, and had to flood this particular planet because the humans displeased him?  Was all of this really about a supreme being, and the planet earth?  Keep in mind, the earth as a planet is only 4.5 billion years old, and the universe is almost 14 billion years old.  What was YHWH doing for the first 9 billion years?

Oh hell no!  I don't believe the bible! 

I could only speculate about what God might have been doing for those 4.5 billion years.  Perhaps discovering and learning how things live.

Chronos,

I am not claiming that God created the universe.  My possibility is that God made it possible for us to survive/thrive in an extremely hostile environment; the universe; the planet. 

I absolutely believe we control our own destinies! 
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Chronos

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2013, 09:32:56 AM »
Chronos,

I am not claiming that God created the universe.  My possibility is that God made it possible for us to survive/thrive in an extremely hostile environment; the universe; the planet. 

I absolutely believe we control our own destinies!

If god did not create the universe, then god is not all-powerful. At best he can only be a demi-god. If he is merely a demi-god then he is a lesser god and we must ask who/what created the universe and worship that god as the creator.

Making god a lesser god by not having him create the universe totally destroys the concept of god.

John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Offline junebug72

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2013, 12:42:02 AM »
Chronos,

I am not claiming that God created the universe.  My possibility is that God made it possible for us to survive/thrive in an extremely hostile environment; the universe; the planet. 

I absolutely believe we control our own destinies!

If god did not create the universe, then god is not all-powerful. At best he can only be a demi-god. If he is merely a demi-god then he is a lesser god and we must ask who/what created the universe and worship that god as the creator.

Making god a lesser god by not having him create the universe totally destroys the concept of god.

No it doesn't Chronos.  It is not creating the universe that makes God superior.  God doesn't need to be stronger than the universe but have complete knowledge of it.

I do not worship.  I try to be thankful for life.  But I do not worship.  I am still alive.  Still getting blessing in my lesbian life.

I don't even believe God cares if we worship.  I think God  cares a lot more that we work together with kindness and love to eliminate poverty and violence on earth.   Geese I've even said on here before that God don't care if you believe, if you're gay, poor or black.  Just be kind to others.  That's all it would take to change the world!!! :laugh:


How can we know that while "God" was in this condensed matter there wasn't some programming going on?  And then Bang life began...
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2013, 01:21:32 AM »
Junebug

The question is not "What is possible?" The question is "How likely is it that we are going to guess the right question?"

Anyone can take what they hope might be true, combine it with a small or large amount of science, and speculate their little hearts out. As long as one doesn't violate common sense ( You know, we could solve the homeless problem by sending poor people to live on the sun, where they wouldn't have heating bills), anything guessed can be labeled as plausible, because not only do we not know enough to figure out if it might be true, we also don't know enough to dismiss it as false.

So the real question is "How much of our valuable and limited time on earth should be taken up by conjecture, when the evidence for something is currently zero?" If you value such thought exercises, then it has value to you. But even that doesn't lend legitimacy to any idea that is purely speculative.

All of this is a long way of saying "I don't know, and I have no idea how we could know". I tend to think that since the early universe was made up of the simplest elements, and that it took the slow formation and destruction of stars, over billions of years, to create things like heavier elements and the level of complexity that we now enjoy, it seems less likely than usual that the Big Bang and the early universe created anything as complex as a god.

And if I'm wrong, who will tell me? Probably not even the god, should he be real. 

Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline Chronos

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2013, 02:14:34 AM »
No it doesn't Chronos.  It is not creating the universe that makes God superior.  God doesn't need to be stronger than the universe but have complete knowledge of it.

Since you are creating your god in the way you want him to be, why bother discussing him? Your god only exists in your version of reality.

John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Offline wheels5894

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2013, 08:39:11 AM »
Parking PLaces is right. The question of possibility is, in principle, one that could apply to almost any idea we might have and it might, possibly, be true. Thus for all the gods for whom we know names there might be actual powerful gods... there might and we can't rule it out.

However, if we look at how likely it is that any of the gods really exist we are probably going to have to say that the chnaces are very low. There is no the slightest evidence of the action of any gods - ever - so even if there is the tiniest possibilty we can still say it is so unlikely that it is not worth mentioning and considering.

Thus with the Big Bang. Science is progressing with its understanding of this event and, some time, we are going to have a theory to explain what went on. Right now we do not know but it is, quite frankly, pointless to specualte or to stick a god into the space made by our lack of knowledge. It is far better to wait and see. Besides which, such a god that could have created the Big Bang is far more likely to be a deist sort - you know the god that starts thde universe and goes on lunch-break leaving the universe to look after itself.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Graybeard

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2013, 08:49:40 AM »
I could only speculate about what God might have been doing for those 4.5 billion years.  Perhaps discovering and learning how things live.
I realise that you are merely speculating, but, if there were no living things, how would he learn about them? ; )
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline junebug72

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2013, 12:05:30 PM »
Junebug

The question is not "What is possible?" The question is "How likely is it that we are going to guess the right question?"

Anyone can take what they hope might be true, combine it with a small or large amount of science, and speculate their little hearts out. As long as one doesn't violate common sense ( You know, we could solve the homeless problem by sending poor people to live on the sun, where they wouldn't have heating bills), anything guessed can be labeled as plausible, because not only do we not know enough to figure out if it might be true, we also don't know enough to dismiss it as false.

So the real question is "How much of our valuable and limited time on earth should be taken up by conjecture, when the evidence for something is currently zero?" If you value such thought exercises, then it has value to you. But even that doesn't lend legitimacy to any idea that is purely speculative.

All of this is a long way of saying "I don't know, and I have no idea how we could know". I tend to think that since the early universe was made up of the simplest elements, and that it took the slow formation and destruction of stars, over billions of years, to create things like heavier elements and the level of complexity that we now enjoy, it seems less likely than usual that the Big Bang and the early universe created anything as complex as a god.

And if I'm wrong, who will tell me? Probably not even the god, should he be real.

My theory does not defy common sense.  I believe if it could create our universe it would have been more than capable of creating a God capable of creating us. 

I look at it like this.  Y'all are stuck with the religious idea of God.  Religions have made you hate the very idea of such a god.  Did me the same way.  Once I realized religions were man made I revisited the idea of God and found that life was more bearable with the non-religious God in it. 
When nothing else would help Love Lifted Me! 

No God's not going to interfere with your decision making.  You are free to believe what you want.  You are responsible for your beliefs. 

If the evidence is zero then why are we here?  The complexity of life is plenty of evidence.  Our precise location to the sun, our protective atmosphere,
all evidence of a Creator.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline junebug72

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2013, 12:20:45 PM »
No it doesn't Chronos.  It is not creating the universe that makes God superior.  God doesn't need to be stronger than the universe but have complete knowledge of it.

Since you are creating your god in the way you want him to be, why bother discussing him? Your god only exists in your version of reality.

God has been around long before the junebug was even thought about.  There are many folks that believe as I do.  At least I don't want God to be jealous, egotistical, and vengeful like the religions do.  I am not trying to scare people but comfort them.  Atheism offers no comfort to my life and little hope for mankind.  God is not the problem people are!
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline wheels5894

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2013, 12:26:30 PM »

My theory does not defy common sense.  I believe if it could create our universe it would have been more than capable of creating a God capable of creating us. 

I look at it like this.  Y'all are stuck with the religious idea of God.  Religions have made you hate the very idea of such a god.  Did me the same way.  Once I realized religions were man made I revisited the idea of God and found that life was more bearable with the non-religious God in it. 
When nothing else would help Love Lifted Me! 

No God's not going to interfere with your decision making.  You are free to believe what you want.  You are responsible for your beliefs. 

I'm still not quite sure what you mean by a non-religious god. Especially when you say things like 'When nothing else would help Love Lifted Me!' it sounds like a religion - at least how a religious person would talk.

{quote]
If the evidence is zero then why are we here?  The complexity of life is plenty of evidence.  Our precise location to the sun, our protective atmosphere,
all evidence of a Creator.
[/quote]

These are deep questions but I would draw your attention to what was said earlier. What we need to ask is more ' what are the chances we are here?' Now some people would give you very long odds on us being here though, of course, the odds are very short since we are here, talking. In fact, due to this we know that the possibility is a reality.

The thing is that, supposing we are right about a generation of the universe purely based on physical forces, we would not be here if things were different. However, that's like winning a big lottery and saying that a god had to have guided you hand to choose the right numbers when, in fact, someone was bound to win at some stage so the only odd thing would have been that you won. Cosmology shows how the tiny speck of the Big bang expanded into the universe and evolution tells us how the complexity of life developed. The only gap is the formation of life and we ought to learn a lot more about this when the lander lands on the comet next year as it is expected that amino acids will be found. Amino acids are the building blocks of life and are predicted to form in space without any help. This would get us closer to seeing how life started.

No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Truth OT

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2013, 12:32:00 PM »
My theory does not defy common sense.  I believe if it could create our universe it would have been more than capable of creating a God capable of creating us. 

I look at it like this.  Y'all are stuck with the religious idea of God.  Religions have made you hate the very idea of such a god.  Did me the same way.  Once I realized religions were man made I revisited the idea of God and found that life was more bearable with the non-religious God in it. 
When nothing else would help Love Lifted Me! 

No God's not going to interfere with your decision making.  You are free to believe what you want.  You are responsible for your beliefs. 

If the evidence is zero then why are we here?  The complexity of life is plenty of evidence.  Our precise location to the sun, our protective atmosphere,
all evidence of a Creator.

Why stop with "A" god, couldn't a whole species of "god-beings" have been birthed or perhaps have evolved over time to the point where the beings are knowledgeable enough about the universe and its working to create human types?

Offline junebug72

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2013, 12:39:28 PM »
Parking PLaces is right. The question of possibility is, in principle, one that could apply to almost any idea we might have and it might, possibly, be true. Thus for all the gods for whom we know names there might be actual powerful gods... there might and we can't rule it out.

However, if we look at how likely it is that any of the gods really exist we are probably going to have to say that the chnaces are very low. There is no the slightest evidence of the action of any gods - ever - so even if there is the tiniest possibilty we can still say it is so unlikely that it is not worth mentioning and considering.

Thus with the Big Bang. Science is progressing with its understanding of this event and, some time, we are going to have a theory to explain what went on. Right now we do not know but it is, quite frankly, pointless to specualte or to stick a god into the space made by our lack of knowledge. It is far better to wait and see. Besides which, such a god that could have created the Big Bang is far more likely to be a deist sort - you know the god that starts thde universe and goes on lunch-break leaving the universe to look after itself.

I don't just see it as possible but very likely!  We have had a long time to figure this out Wheels and people are still believing. 

We are capable of taking care of ourselves are we not? 

If God is busy welcoming those whose life journey has ended, comforting the ones left behind, then God has not left us but has prepared a place for us among the stars!!! IMO of course.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline junebug72

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2013, 12:45:16 PM »
My theory does not defy common sense.  I believe if it could create our universe it would have been more than capable of creating a God capable of creating us. 

I look at it like this.  Y'all are stuck with the religious idea of God.  Religions have made you hate the very idea of such a god.  Did me the same way.  Once I realized religions were man made I revisited the idea of God and found that life was more bearable with the non-religious God in it. 
When nothing else would help Love Lifted Me! 

No God's not going to interfere with your decision making.  You are free to believe what you want.  You are responsible for your beliefs. 

If the evidence is zero then why are we here?  The complexity of life is plenty of evidence.  Our precise location to the sun, our protective atmosphere,
all evidence of a Creator.

Why stop with "A" god, couldn't a whole species of "god-beings" have been birthed or perhaps have evolved over time to the point where the beings are knowledgeable enough about the universe and its working to create human types?

Good point Truth.  Maybe that's why there's so many ancient gods!!! ;) 
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline junebug72

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2013, 12:57:43 PM »
I could only speculate about what God might have been doing for those 4.5 billion years.  Perhaps discovering and learning how things live.
I realise that you are merely speculating, but, if there were no living things, how would he learn about them? ; )

What do most scientist do when contemplating a creation?  Take notes, start small, observe and learn?
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline wheels5894

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2013, 01:05:49 PM »
I could only speculate about what God might have been doing for those 4.5 billion years.  Perhaps discovering and learning how things live.
I realise that you are merely speculating, but, if there were no living things, how would he learn about them? ; )

What do most scientist do when contemplating a creation?  Take notes, start small, observe and learn?

Sorry, but cosmologists are really mathematicians in disguise. the job is all about mathematical modelling and comparing the results with what we know about reality. Did you know that much oif waht we have found out by observation was initially predictions from maths? Look at the Higgs Bosun for example.

As the work progresses and maths matches reality we know we are on the right course, winding time backwards towards the Big Bang.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline junebug72

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #18 on: December 30, 2013, 01:43:36 PM »


These are deep questions but I would draw your attention to what was said earlier. What we need to ask is more ' what are the chances we are here?' Now some people would give you very long odds on us being here though, of course, the odds are very short since we are here, talking. In fact, due to this we know that the possibility is a reality.

The thing is that, supposing we are right about a generation of the universe purely based on physical forces, we would not be here if things were different. However, that's like winning a big lottery and saying that a god had to have guided you hand to choose the right numbers when, in fact, someone was bound to win at some stage so the only odd thing would have been that you won. Cosmology shows how the tiny speck of the Big bang expanded into the universe and evolution tells us how the complexity of life developed. The only gap is the formation of life and we ought to learn a lot more about this when the lander lands on the comet next year as it is expected that amino acids will be found. Amino acids are the building blocks of life and are predicted to form in space without any help. This would get us closer to seeing how life started.

Are amino acids not found already here on earth in very inhospitable places?  If amino acids are found they wouldn't be humans would they?  What I want to see is those amino acids turn themselves into millions of different complex life forms especially one that thinks and feels like we do.  Evolution does not explain complexity it explains thumbs and skin color, not complexity.  It does not explain our protective atmosphere or our precise location to the sun.  If it answered all the questions I'd bite but it doesn't it just makes more questions.  For instance, why are apes no longer evolving into humans?  They would move up the food chain quite substantially wouldn't they?

Y'all base every thing you believe on theory not proven fact yet you think I'm childish and naive for doing the same thing. Except God has proven God's existence to me because I have opened my heart and soul to it.  I've always lived by the motto don't knock it until you've tried it.  I have tried atheism and religion, I chose spiritualism. 

As far as the song some religious songs are glorious this is one of them.  I spent the first 13 years of my life in a fundie baptist church.  I do still love some of those hymns. ;)

There are more branches of science than cosmology.  Thanks for adding that thought.  My point was God was busy making plans.  I am positive mathematics was part of it.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline junebug72

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2013, 01:54:59 PM »
What's the matter Dante cat got your tongue or don't you have access!!! lmao
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Graybeard

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #20 on: December 30, 2013, 04:40:17 PM »
Are amino acids not found already here on earth in very inhospitable places?  If amino acids are found they wouldn't be humans would they?  What I want to see is those amino acids turn themselves into millions of different complex life forms especially one that thinks and feels like we do.
As it took several billion years for that to happen. How much time have you got?

Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline junebug72

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #21 on: December 31, 2013, 08:40:36 AM »
Witty response GB.  I like it.

It wouldn't take that long if it had help which is what I believe.  I believe it had to have some intelligent help from above, a men. lol on purpose ;)

I believe God took that stuff and made all the living creatures of the world!!!  Oh my I feel like dancing a jig right now!!!  I'm so happy, happy, happy!!!  They are called building blocks are they not; amino acids?  That means something to build with ha ha ha!!! 

I'm not laughing at you I promise I'm just happy to be alive and I want to share it with y'all!!! ;D  In fact I'm going to hug you right now.  Get ready for it...here it comes...(((hugs)))  now see that didn't hurt...felt good didn't it...it sure felt good to me...have a Happy day GB!!!

Sincerely,

JB






Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Chronos

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #22 on: December 31, 2013, 12:20:34 PM »
My theory does not defy common sense.  I believe if it could create our universe it would have been more than capable of creating a God capable of creating us.

This is a circular reference. Since creation requires one thing to exist before another, like a parent creating a child, the child cannot in turn create the parent. In other words, the child cannot create something that existed before the child was created.

This is a basic issue of logic.


I look at it like this.  Y'all are stuck with the religious idea of God.  Religions have made you hate the very idea of such a god. 

This is incorrect. I do not hate god. I cannot hate something that doesn't exists. I don't hate religion, either, not in principle anyway. I do hate when religion causes Person A to require that Person B live by Person A's religion. I hate the way people use religion to diminish or ostracize others. I hate how people use religion as an excuse for not knowing facts and assuming that some sky daddy is going to come in to save them at the last minute.

In other words, I hate the lack of common sense, the lack of logic and the lack of personal liberty. Religion is not the only vehicle that fosters these things. Conspiracy theorists, the black helicopter crowd, the anti-vaccination parents, FOX News, etc ... are all like a religion that perpetuates stupidity and eschews facts. These things encourage people to remain in the dark, often in the same way that religion does.


Once I realized religions were man made I revisited the idea of God and found that life was more bearable with the non-religious God in it.   When nothing else would help Love Lifted Me!

As I stated previously, you are making god to fit your own liking, your own reality. This god does not exist anywhere else. Since you get to define whatever you think god is for your own purposes, the discussion of your god is rather pointless. It's like playing a football game in which the referee is always changing the rules.

To put it another way, it's like arguing with you about how much you love the color magenta instead of another color. It's a personal choice, not anything factual.


No God's not going to interfere with your decision making.  You are free to believe what you want.  You are responsible for your beliefs. 

If the evidence is zero then why are we here?  The complexity of life is plenty of evidence.  Our precise location to the sun, our protective atmosphere,
all evidence of a Creator.

The observable complexity of life is actually evidence of a lack of god. Even more so the consistency of the elements of the universe defies the interference of a god.

Our existence on this planet is a statistic, nothing more. Maybe that doesn't warm your heart but it actually inspires me. It makes life more precious than if it were granted by a god. There are likely millions of other planets in the galaxy that also offer the same scenario as earth but we don't know if they harbor life ... yet.

As well explained by Richard Dawkins, nothing in our universe points to the existence of a god or the participation of a god. Quite the opposite.

The only reason I bother to discuss whether a god exists is to counter the beliefs of others who assuredly think one does exists and that their god has told them what to do with or to the rest of us. It's completely delusional.


God has been around long before the junebug was even thought about.  There are many folks that believe as I do.  At least I don't want God to be jealous, egotistical, and vengeful like the religions do.  I am not trying to scare people but comfort them.  Atheism offers no comfort to my life and little hope for mankind.  God is not the problem people are!

But according to you, god created himself after he created the universe. How do you know that your god was around before you were? By your own explanation of the order of things, not only could you be god, you might have created god.

I do not think that there are many people who believe like you do -- insofar as god creating himself after he created the universe, or that the universe was created by some accident and then it created god for us ... I challenge you to find a significant number of people who believe these things. Regardless of whether a majority of people like to partake in a particular religion, the predominant thinking is that god created the universe and everything within it. What happened next is an obvious point of contention for most believers.

Let me clarify something for you: atheism doesn't offer anything to anyone. Atheism is precisely to be without religion. As a previous or quasi Christian, you are atheistic with respect to other religions, but I am just atheistic with respect to all of them. Since people are inspired from the things they see and think and their own internal desire to express themselves, a religion or a god have only been subjects of their creativity. Many people who were/are, more or less, atheists, have been inspired in various way to achieve various things: art, architecture, literature, engineering, scientific discoveries, etc.

While you feel you need a sense of god/religion in order to inspire you or comfort you, which is quite fine because that is your personal choice, it is wholly incorrect to say that atheism offers no comfort to your life. It was never supposed to. Atheism is not a something that offers something else to someone. Atheism is merely a state of being. As an atheist, I am inspired in many ways and I find comfort in many things -- I just don't credit the source of these things as "god". I see no evidence for a god and no point in crediting god for things that I did both good and bad.


John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Offline junebug72

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #23 on: December 31, 2013, 01:41:30 PM »
Quote
But according to you, god created himself after he created the universe. How do you know that your god was around before you were? By your own explanation of the order of things, not only could you be god, you might have created god.

Chronos that was a great read until I got to this part.  You misunderstand my theory.  I said basically that the Big Bang created God then God created us. 

I am compelled to say I am happy you have found peace.  So have I.  I find peace in believing there is something more.  I will not let them darn xtians take the dream of a beautiful after life away from me.  I want to spend eternity with the ones I love and I don't know if that's possible w/o a god.  I don't want forever on earth with an old broke down body.  I want paradise.  We Deserve it! (((hugs)))

Yea I shouldn't have said that about atheism.  It's better than religion.  I've also been told that here before.  My bad! ;) 

Have a happy happy new year big guy!!!

JB
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Chronos

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #24 on: January 01, 2014, 01:49:28 AM »
Chronos that was a great read until I got to this part.  You misunderstand my theory.  I said basically that the Big Bang created God then God created us. 

The god that did not create everything, consequently, is not all that powerful. If god created us after the universe created him, then where does heaven lie? Outside the universe that created god? Can god get you into this heaven or not? What's the criteria? Is he in charge any longer?

I take more comfort in knowing that I will never again see those who left before me or those who leave after me. To speculate that the opposite is true is to engage totally in conjecture.


I find peace in believing there is something more.  I will not let them darn xtians take the dream of a beautiful after life away from me.

You wish to live in your own reality. That's fine as long as the rest of us don't have to live in your reality. We each can have one of our own.


Have a happy happy new year big guy!!!

May each new year be better than the last.
John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Offline junebug72

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #25 on: January 01, 2014, 08:30:40 AM »
Chronos that was a great read until I got to this part.  You misunderstand my theory.  I said basically that the Big Bang created God then God created us. 

The god that did not create everything, consequently, is not all that powerful. If god created us after the universe created him, then where does heaven lie? Outside the universe that created god? Can god get you into this heaven or not? What's the criteria? Is he in charge any longer?

I take more comfort in knowing that I will never again see those who left before me or those who leave after me. To speculate that the opposite is true is to engage totally in conjecture.


I find peace in believing there is something more.  I will not let them darn xtians take the dream of a beautiful after life away from me.

You wish to live in your own reality. That's fine as long as the rest of us don't have to live in your reality. We each can have one of our own.


Have a happy happy new year big guy!!!

May each new year be better than the last.

Thanks for the well wishes. 

As far as reality goes we all live in each others reality do we not.  Beliefs and value systems effect our social lives.  If we lived in my dreams there would be no poverty or violence in this world.   I find it hard to believe that most of the people here/you do not want the same thing. 

When I see all the power there is in the universe I can easily see a powerful God.  Heaven lies beyond death.  I would have to be dead to answer that question.  If I didn't believe in heaven I could not take the heart breaks of death.  I am very sensitive you know ;)  The only requirement is to love one another.  As far as those that hurt others, I trust that God is merciful.

We, the human race, are in charge of our own destiny!
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Graybeard

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #26 on: January 01, 2014, 08:36:12 AM »
I could only speculate about what God might have been doing for those 4.5 billion years.  Perhaps discovering and learning how things live.
I realise that you are merely speculating, but, if there were no living things, how would he learn about them? ; )

What do most scientist do when contemplating a creation?  Take notes, start small, observe and learn?
1. Well, gods are never scientists
2. How can you "take notes?" There is nothing to note until it is there.
3. The Bible shows a god that does not know anything about what he has created. Your god might. but then if you invent a god, that god can do anything you want, can't it?
4. If your thesis is correct, then has the god of creation left and gone on to do something else? Or, once having got his "train set" does he spend all day, every day playing with it?
5. You mean he started on viruses and worked his way up to dinosaurs and whales? If so, does this not mean that the god does not know everything?
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline junebug72

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #27 on: January 01, 2014, 09:08:28 AM »
I could only speculate about what God might have been doing for those 4.5 billion years.  Perhaps discovering and learning how things live.
I realise that you are merely speculating, but, if there were no living things, how would he learn about them? ; )

What do most scientist do when contemplating a creation?  Take notes, start small, observe and learn?
1. Well, gods are never scientists
2. How can you "take notes?" There is nothing to note until it is there.
3. The Bible shows a god that does not know anything about what he has created. Your god might. but then if you invent a god, that god can do anything you want, can't it?
4. If your thesis is correct, then has the god of creation left and gone on to do something else? Or, once having got his "train set" does he spend all day, every day playing with it?
5. You mean he started on viruses and worked his way up to dinosaurs and whales? If so, does this not mean that the god does not know everything?

1. Why not because you say so?  It seems only logical to me that God would be the grand master of science!
2. If it is there conceptually it is there.  You should know what I mean jelly bean! ;)
3. bible smible I don't care what the bible says.
4. We are in charge of our own destiny. We are not puppets but humans with minds of our own.
5. Did you know everything the day you were born?  I bet you would know a lot if you were 14 billion years old!!! and you're human!!!

I certainly did not invent God.  No way, no shape, no how!!!  I have more knowledge now than our early ancestors did.  I should understand things differently!!!
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Chronos

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Re: This Is Possible!
« Reply #28 on: January 01, 2014, 10:02:35 AM »
As far as reality goes we all live in each others reality do we not. 

Reality is evidenced by cause and effect -- proof. If you think your reality includes a god, that is not the same reality in which I live. My reality sees that there is no room for a god to have done anything at all. Since I do not claim that a god exists or existed, I have nothing to prove. Since your have modified reality to include a god, you must prove that god exists, not I. Therefore, your version of reality is different and you are deluding yourself because you cannot prove your version of reality is true.


Beliefs and value systems effect our social lives. 

Yes, they do, and often quite negatively. Since so many like to have different beliefs and value systems, cooperation is difficult and conflict is destructive.


If we lived in my dreams there would be no poverty or violence in this world.

As long as humans have volition that world is impossible. Why dream about the impossible?


I find it hard to believe that most of the people here/you do not want the same thing.

Do you read the news/paper at least every few weeks?

I haven't seen or read about rich people breaking down the doors in poor neighborhoods offering to upgrade the residents economic status from "poor" to "less poor". I also don't see all the gun owners voluntarily surrendering their firearms in order to make the world a safer place.

Ergo, I do not believe we all want the same thing. Those who have more tend to keep it, those who have less tend to lose it.


When I see all the power there is in the universe I can easily see a powerful God.

I have no idea what that means. Is power another euphemism for love? Have you seen what gamma rays do? Relative to humans, gamma rays are quite violent.

Heaven lies beyond death.  I would have to be dead to answer that question.

So, heaven is a location? This is why I ask where it might be. It's not? If it is just a state of mind, then I suspect I may agree with you. Heaven, in a flattened sense of meaning, is equal to death. Nothing happens there.


If I didn't believe in heaven I could not take the heart breaks of death.  I am very sensitive you know ;)  The only requirement is to love one another.  As far as those that hurt others, I trust that God is merciful.

If heaven = death, and therefore nothing happens there, what heart break could there be? None. Heart break is an emotion experienced among the living, not the dead.

Love only exists because hate does. If there were no hate, there would be no love. If north didn't exist, south wouldn't exist either -- south would be meaningless. To experience one thing you must have its opposite to compare. Without opposites, life is a one-dimensional world in which emotions disappear.


We, the human race, are in charge of our own destiny!

Apparently you haven't consumed much news in the past few years. Between climate change, nuclear accidents and meteors, among others, we clearly are not "in charge of our own destiny" but merely have an oar in the water. We don't control the flow of the river or the obstacles that lie ahead, so to say that we are in charge of own destiny eviscerates chance from our lives. Without chance, there is no randomness. Without randomness, emotions cannot be. Life again becomes a one-dimensional world. Actually, I should correct myself to say that life becomes a zero-dimensional world were even time doesn't exist. If there is no randomness, there can be no concept of time. What would time serve except to measure sameness? You cannot measure sameness without randomness occurring, and randomness requires a multi-dimensional world.

Believing that a one-dimensional (or more accurately a zero-dimensional) world is possible is to completely gut reality. I don't think anyone wants to live there, and more over, I don't think anyone would want to live there. Want/desire are human volitions that require randomness. With sameness, life is not possible.

John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.