Author Topic: athiesm and free will  (Read 2731 times)

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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: athiesm and free will
« Reply #58 on: January 11, 2014, 09:48:51 AM »
I don't agree with your assessment of fatness entirely.  I became fat due to surgeries and medication as a child which I had no free will to avoid.  Although, I can admit that I currently choose to remain fat.  Some people have medical conditions that cause them to be fat which they have no free will to control.  In a sense it is a mixed bag, sometimes we have free will.

I think I said that there are indeed cases where abnormal metabolisms result in increased weight gain from the same calorie intake.  BUT, it is still surely down to their own free will how many calories they ingest in the first place.

You've said that sometimes we have free will - can you explain how it happens that sometimes our free will does not apply?  Sticking specifically to weight gain for the moment, how is free will to eat, or not to eat, or to eat particular foods, not able to be exercised (assuming free availability of all food types)?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Online bertatberts

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Re: athiesm and free will
« Reply #59 on: January 11, 2014, 12:01:32 PM »
Quote from: bertatberts link=topic=26116.msg593958#msg593958  date=1389200764
Your a bit of an arrogant s**t aren't you. There is no cognitive dissonance here, I am not conflicted in my opinions it is because I have a myriad of options open to me that I could never be conflicted in this matter.

That wasn't a personal jab, it was a comment about how intellectual thought proceeds when two incompatible beliefs are held simultaneously and new information is provided.
Yet! You still have the arrogance to suggest again, that I have conflicting beliefs. Whereas I have stated I haven't. So I can only take it as personal jab. as you seem to be ignoring what I saying.
As I said in post# 32 "I agree we live in a derministic universe. And as such our life’s are ruled by it. But I'm sorry it has only some effect on the choices we make." If I have no will to chose then according to you, I am the way I am and hold the views I express, because it is part of my genetic makeup, You are the way you are for the same reasons, you used the word choice. Where is the choice? The fact that our opinion differ means we are not all running on simply our genetic make up, to say we have no will whatsoever is ludicrous to me. It would mean I didn't chose my wife, I didn't chose by home. It would renders it all meaningless. How infantile!
A person could kill with impunity as it would not be their fault, there would be no point in rehabilitating them either, as they are not incontrol of their lives so could happily do it all again and it still would not be their fault. That is nonsensical.
Yes I agree. The way in which you describe this is nonsensical.
This reply can be take as a jab too. You make it sound like, only I could see it that way.
I like Vanilla Ice Cream - but I did not start liking it because I wanted to. I don't even know when I started liking it. But I enjoy eating it. (However, whenever/wherever Vanilla Ice Cream is offered to me I may not always accept it.
I have that "choice" which most animals lack.)

Your brain made that determination quite without your input. That's how it all works, albeit in very minute ways.
Please don't quote mine. And this is patronising. I've fixed it for you. I've replaced the part you omitted in blue.
I'm not an automaton, I'm not simply an animal, I am sapient.

You are both an sapient, and an animal. Nothing simple about any animal. All fascinating and fantastic and fabulous.
Again patronising, and facetious. it's clear from what I said that I'm aware I'm an animal, but I'm not simply a sentient animal but a sapient one.



I have to agree with those who say that if we do have "free will" it is very limited.
Hurrah! Someone with good sense that's all we need, we make all choices period. Thanks for the concession.




That's just it. How are murderers/child murderers being judge fair and reasonable? Fair to whom the victim or the perpetrator? I would say the latter.
What you're talking about is "eye for an eye" and the like.
How so! I merely asked who it was fair for, tis all. 
Someone who commits a crime deserves to be hurt just as badly (if not more badly) as the victim of the crime.
Never said that, all I said was they should not have it easy why should they get to have friends, read books, watch tv, play games, etc.. Why shouldn't they get hard labour. Why should they get perks for killing. They never considered their victims future why should we give them better than they gave their victims. That's the fairness I'm talking about, harming them would only make you like them.
Yes I said "feel similar pain" and "suffer. However you assumed I meant hurt as in cut/beat etc.
Depriving them of the things they deprived their victims, is fairness.
We theists have no evidence for our beliefs. So no amount of rational evidence will dissuade us from those beliefs. - JCisall

It would be pretty piss poor brainwashing, if the victims knew they were brainwashed, wouldn't it? - Screwtape. 04/12/12

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: athiesm and free will
« Reply #60 on: January 13, 2014, 09:29:08 AM »
Yup.  Changed my mind.  I had the free will to do so.
Really?[1]

Quote from: Anfauglir
We have free will, and hence all the points I have made in this thread apply.   I have to presume everyone agrees with my assessments of alcoholism and fatness and so forth, since nobody has countered them?
Even given what I know about habits - and how long it's taken me to break them - I'd be inclined to disagree with free will[2] being fully responsible for alcoholism or weight gain.

Huh, I just thought of a pretty decent analogy.  We have the freedom to decide to go into space - provided we do the groundwork that allows us to overcome gravity and the lack of air and pressure in space.  No amount of free will would let us overcome gravity without building something powerful enough to push us away from Earth; no amount of free will would allow us to survive in space without airtight suits and ships that allowed us to produce and recycle oxygen.  So, that being said, it's not unreasonable to conclude that there are other things that present obstacles that impede our ability to make decisions.  Addictive/repetitive behaviors being one of those things (which means at least some cases of fatness and most cases of alcoholism, and lots of other things, even non-addictive habits).

I liken it to an addiction (or a habit) digging you into a hole, and you have to work to get yourself out.  But if you slip, you end up back at the bottom or at least partway down.  It's not an excuse - I think someone can overcome it provided they work at it, but just as we have limits on strength to pull ourselves out of a real hole, we have limits on willpower to pull ourselves out of the allegorical hole that addictive and repetitive behavior gets us into.
 1. I am quite skeptical of this - this would be all too easy of a position for you to take for the sake of argument.  Especially given how you would argue exactly the opposite thing before - that you didn't have the free will to do or not to do something.  How do you reconcile your position before with your position now?
 2. Though I still think that's a bad term to use, as it implies an unfettered will, which I don't think is the case.

Offline shnozzola

Re: athiesm and free will
« Reply #61 on: January 13, 2014, 07:33:28 PM »
I liken it to an addiction (or a habit) digging you into a hole, and you have to work to get yourself out.  But if you slip, you end up back at the bottom or at least partway down.  It's not an excuse - I think someone can overcome it provided they work at it, but just as we have limits on strength to pull ourselves out of a real hole, we have limits on willpower to pull ourselves out of the allegorical hole that addictive and repetitive behavior gets us into.

   If we find it difficult to get out of a hole we have dug for ourselves, the path to getting into AND out of that hole involves the experiences of our lives and our makeup.  With a series of things happening to us, we get out of that hole because of those things, or we do not get out of the hole because of those things. We love thinking we have freewill, but we do not, and looking at life with this realization changes everything.  In the way we accept ourselves and in the new way we accept others.
“The best thing for being sad," replied Merlin, beginning to puff and blow, "is to learn something."  ~ T. H. White
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: athiesm and free will
« Reply #62 on: January 14, 2014, 07:19:08 AM »
....it's not unreasonable to conclude that there are other things that present obstacles that impede our ability to make decisions.  Addictive/repetitive behaviors being one of those things (which means at least some cases of fatness and most cases of alcoholism, and lots of other things, even non-addictive habits).

Sorry, I don't understand.  How exactly does an "addictive behaviour" work?  You seem to be saying that because I've done something repeatedly in the past, that somehow impedes my ability to make a free choice to do (or not to do) that thing in future.  I don't understand how that is supposed to work?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?