Author Topic: Re Jesus as Savior [#2787]  (Read 488 times)

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Offline pianodwarf

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Re Jesus as Savior [#2787]
« on: December 26, 2013, 02:21:59 PM »
Your lesson is very valuable. Thanks for taking the time to do it.

Some of us think that Jesus is the Savior because of his message that God is love and that love is real. We don't need the miracles. Love is miracle enough for us. (Some of us are basically ex-hippies, Buddhist-Christian hybrids.) Even if Jesus is imaginary, he's still the savior to us because of his philosophy. Love is the only cure for hate (fear). Heaven is here on earth right now ("at hand"), not something you wait for. If your frame of mind makes you grateful for your life, then you have heaven. That's probably a good thing for you when you die because your evaporation from life may seem infinitely long to you when you go, so it's better to go out with a long hum and not a long buzz.

Christ's one really novel idea is to avoid hating evil people. That's incredibly freeing. It has probably saved people serving jail time, like Mandela and others. Obama's worst folly is his continued use of the term "enemy." These terrorists are very sincere if they're willing to die like kamikazes, so they need to be offered our admiration and respect even as we rein them in. (Butter, not bombs.)

As for God, some universal "consciousness," there is no way to prove one view versus the other, but in my view, it is more superstitious and nutty to believe that our consciousness came out of thin air sometime after the big bang. In nature, things tend to come from pre-existing things.

Einstein finally decided that the universe IS God, and that the universe thinks. The question Einstein couldn't answer was what God does with all that thinking or self-awareness. Can it just watch, helplessly, once the big bang has happened? Can it influence individual wills? If that is so, then that is tremendous power. But maybe God's will is split up into a zillion pieces (the Eastern view), and maybe God is Us (Nietsche). Maybe God helplessly watches us execute our little pieces of will while hoping for the best. Maybe God gets heartburn when we are nasty to each other and dangerous to creation.

What I'm certain of is that YOU have an extraordinary will to have accomplished what you did. I expect that you will keep searching, which I guess is the whole point. After all, it keeps things interesting.

Best.
[name removed]

PS:
What did the priest say to the prospective nun?
"I wish you would marry Christ, Miss!"

[name, address, and phone number removed]

Http;//eslprof.com
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline shnozzola

Re: Re Jesus as Savior [#2787]
« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2013, 06:56:05 PM »
Good post.  Sounds Quakerish actually.  I understand the idea that avoiding hating others is freeing - so true, and unfortunately hidden from many.

But I disagree with the idea that the universe thinks.  Lawrence Krauss has a good lecture on one possibility you may want to check out.  [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjaGktVQdNg]

When you say that god helplessly watches over us while hoping for the best, you seem to be reverting back to something that doesn't exist.

The main thing is, your view seems very safe for the rest of us. 
 
Here's some food for thought that I have learned from the debating at this website.  There is no free will - we are programmed into the direction of our life and our choices by nature and nurture - you talk about freeing - this view of reality allows us to look at criminals in a much more humane way, to view punishment as always wrong.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2013, 07:15:11 PM by shnozzola »
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Offline jetson

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Re: Re Jesus as Savior [#2787]
« Reply #2 on: December 26, 2013, 07:33:43 PM »
If Jesus is also YHWH, and YHWH is also Jesus, then we cannot consider either character, in any way, to be loving.  Sorry.

Offline The Gawd

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Re: Re Jesus as Savior [#2787]
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2013, 08:30:36 AM »
If Christ is imaginary then he has no ideas. And Christ is imaginary, even if Jesus is historical.

Offline Chronos

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Re: Re Jesus as Savior [#2787]
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2013, 09:36:50 AM »
Your lesson is very valuable. Thanks for taking the time to do it.

Did you actually read it and comprehend it?


Some of us think that Jesus is the Savior because of his message that God is love and that love is real. We don't need the miracles. Love is miracle enough for us.

So, innate human volition is a miracle? If that is so, then anything at all can be a miracle. The desire to eat is a miracle. The desire to take a piss is a miracle. The desire to fly a kite is a miracle. The desire to maim, rape and kill a 14 year-old girl is a miracle.

If anything and everything is a miracle, doesn't that cheapen miracles? Doesn't that cause miracles to become meaningless?


(Some of us are basically ex-hippies, Buddhist-Christian hybrids.) Even if Jesus is imaginary, he's still the savior to us because of his philosophy. Love is the only cure for hate (fear).

Love ... love ... love ... is the cure for everything, right? Is your mary jane laced with PCP?


Heaven is here on earth right now ("at hand"), not something you wait for. If your frame of mind makes you grateful for your life, then you have heaven.

Someone can be grateful for being alive versus being dead, as in avoiding a deadly car accident or recovering from cancer treatment. However, you cannot be grateful for your life; to be grateful for your life implies that you were something else before you were born and your birth was a positive response by someone else to your desire to be born. Hence, grateful. No one asked to be born. We come with an innate desire to live instead of die. No one gives us that innate desire. It just is. But, still, some of us are not grateful for our lives and commit suicide because, otherwise, the heaven you see is someone else's hell.

So, to use the common example, is an African girl who lives on a dirt floor in a ramshackle hut (maybe), eats a cup of rice per day and just had her clitoris involuntarily removed from her person supposed to be thankful for her heaven on earth? Is it just a problem of perspective? Is she grateful to be alive because she asked to not be killed?


That's probably a good thing for you when you die because your evaporation from life may seem infinitely long to you when you go, so it's better to go out with a long hum and not a long buzz.

Do you have a recipe for MJ brownies that you like a lot?

Christ's one really novel idea is to avoid hating evil people. That's incredibly freeing. It has probably saved people serving jail time, like Mandela and others.

So, Christ didn't hate Adolf Hitler for killing his beloved Jews? I'm sure that Hitler did find that "freeing". After killing 6+ million Jews and some number of gays and the mentally disabled, Hitler was freed from his life by an invasion of Allied forces. God does work in mysterious ways.

Also, Mandela was evil? He certainly broke the law during his lifetime, but so have most of us.

Obama's worst folly is his continued use of the term "enemy." These terrorists are very sincere if they're willing to die like kamikazes, so they need to be offered our admiration and respect even as we rein them in. (Butter, not bombs.)

Okay, so Obama using the term "enemy" (of which I am not terribly familiar with is constant use of this word) is worse than George W Bush referring to North Korea and Iran as the "axis of evil"?

By the way, what does that particular point have to do with the Jesus/God complex?


As for God, some universal "consciousness," there is no way to prove one view versus the other, but in my view, it is more superstitious and nutty to believe that our consciousness came out of thin air sometime after the big bang. In nature, things tend to come from pre-existing things.

My consciousness came at some point when I was in my mother. I am not sure there is a "universal consciousness" since all evidence points to the conclusion that no sentient thing existed until long, long after the big bang would have taken place.

Also, if things tend to come from pre-existing things, then nothing is new or real? I should be equally happy ingesting PCBs as PCP?


Einstein finally decided that the universe IS God, and that the universe thinks. The question Einstein couldn't answer was what God does with all that thinking or self-awareness.

I think you have construed something different from Einstein's fleeting remarks about "god". Einstein spent far more time calculating the existence of god (or not) than discussing esoteric attributions of a magical, mystical being.


Can it just watch, helplessly, once the big bang has happened? Can it influence individual wills? If that is so, then that is tremendous power.

Perhaps you should read works by another scientist, Richard Dawkins, who does an excellent job of proving that if a god did create the universe he never stuck around to do anything with it afterward and couldn't if he wanted to.

But maybe God's will is split up into a zillion pieces (the Eastern view), and maybe God is Us (Nietsche).

This is called Self Projection as God or spagging, which necessarily results in a god and/or religion that is totally to your liking.


Maybe God helplessly watches us execute our little pieces of will while hoping for the best. Maybe God gets heartburn when we are nasty to each other and dangerous to creation.

A god that is all-powerful is unable to hope. He thinks and it happens with no anticipation or doubt. However, as a spagger, perhaps you watch everyone execute their little pieces of reality and you hope for the best, and I am sure you do get heartburn when others are nasty and dangerous (however you prefer to define those terms).

What I'm certain of is that YOU have an extraordinary will to have accomplished what you did. I expect that you will keep searching, which I guess is the whole point. After all, it keeps things interesting.

If I possess a will, it is my own. If it is anything from god, it is against my will and I am merely a puppet.


You seem to be quite friendly and non-judgmental (sorta), so if my reply seems unfriendly and judgmental it's only because I cannot stomach Deep Space Oprah. It shows that everything that you say is all feeling, not thinking. It is all you want it to be and not what it actually is. This likely clouds other thoughts you have and masks reality.


John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Offline albeto

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Re: Re Jesus as Savior [#2787]
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2013, 04:16:46 AM »
Your lesson is very valuable. Thanks for taking the time to do it.

Hi.

:)

Some of us think that Jesus is the Savior because of his message that God is love and that love is real. We don't need the miracles. Love is miracle enough for us. (Some of us are basically ex-hippies, Buddhist-Christian hybrids.) Even if Jesus is imaginary, he's still the savior to us because of his philosophy.

Let's dissect this idea for a moment. Love is an emotional reaction (a very complex process, really, inspired by internal and external cues, one of the many neurological processes we're just beginning to understand). If an emotional reaction can be considered a miracle, can curiosity be considered a miracle? What about wonder? Awe? Interest? Fascination? Excitement? Apprehension? Worry? To where do we go to find the answers? The bible? If not the bible, then what source would tell us what constitutes as being a miracle?

Love is the only cure for hate (fear).

Fear is natural and healthy. My children fear adults they don't know. This is a good thing. I fear high speeds. I've never been in a car crash. I have developed a bit of a fear response to certain conditions, and these responses are not only entirely appropriate, they keep me safe and emotionally stable. None of these fear responses are bad or in need of a cure. Love would do nothing for any of these. I think your love idea is a nice idea, but when applied as theology, it is rather like trying to nail jell-o to the wall.

Heaven is here on earth right now ("at hand"), not something you wait for. If your frame of mind makes you grateful for your life, then you have heaven. That's probably a good thing for you when you die because your evaporation from life may seem infinitely long to you when you go, so it's better to go out with a long hum and not a long buzz.

According to the bible (from where we get the character Jesus, unless Richard Carrier is correct when he talks about a Jewish Jesus cult that predates Christianity), Heaven is explained in a variety of ways, including but not limited to, a city in which God's heirs are absolute rulers (Revelation 5:10).

Christ's one really novel idea is to avoid hating evil people.

As a matter of historical record, this idea was not novel to Jesus, or even the Jews who invented him.

That's incredibly freeing.

Only if you've first been convinced that you are in bondage.

It has probably saved people serving jail time, like Mandela and others. Obama's worst folly is his continued use of the term "enemy." These terrorists are very sincere if they're willing to die like kamikazes, so they need to be offered our admiration and respect even as we rein them in. (Butter, not bombs.)

The jails in the United States are for-profit institutions. Who is incarcerated is hardly indicative of the value in a belief in love as a kind of escape. I agree with you that terrorists are very sincere, and this is the problem - they sincerely believe *due to their religious faith* that what they do will be rewarded for eternity. The problem is there is no accountability for faith. There is no strategy by which one can determine if a faithful belief is credible, accurate, or good. One believes it is credible, accurate, and good in faith! The answer isn't "love," it's finding mutually respectful solutions to desperate problems, solutions that are effective and promote the well-being of others. One can strive to this end without any reference to Christ.

As for God, some universal "consciousness," there is no way to prove one view versus the other, but in my view, it is more superstitious and nutty to believe that our consciousness came out of thin air sometime after the big bang. In nature, things tend to come from pre-existing things.

Superstition is taking two seemingly unrelated events or experiences, and attributing causation between them. Scientific theories of the universe aren't based on attributing causation between two events or experiences, but based on observation, a critical analysis of information, and lengthy peer review process. This is actually the opposite of superstition. Perhaps what you mean to say is you don't understand the various theories of the mechanics of the universe. Hey, join the club.  ;)

Einstein finally decided that the universe IS God, and that the universe thinks. The question Einstein couldn't answer was what God does with all that thinking or self-awareness. Can it just watch, helplessly, once the big bang has happened? Can it influence individual wills? If that is so, then that is tremendous power. But maybe God's will is split up into a zillion pieces (the Eastern view), and maybe God is Us (Nietsche). Maybe God helplessly watches us execute our little pieces of will while hoping for the best. Maybe God gets heartburn when we are nasty to each other and dangerous to creation.

And maybe God is simply the concept derived from superstition throughout human history, a history that can be traced through historical records.

What I'm certain of is that YOU have an extraordinary will to have accomplished what you did. I expect that you will keep searching, which I guess is the whole point. After all, it keeps things interesting.

Best.
[name removed]

PS:
What did the priest say to the prospective nun?
"I wish you would marry Christ, Miss!"

[name, address, and phone number removed]

Http;//eslprof.com

Cute joke. 

:)

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you, too.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2013, 04:18:37 AM by albeto »

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Re Jesus as Savior [#2787]
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2013, 05:09:58 AM »
*smashes face on keyboard*

Yes, because thinking that natural processes made natural things is more superstitious than thinking a magical entity made everything because it wanted to.
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Re Jesus as Savior [#2787]
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2013, 05:25:20 AM »
Some of us think that Jesus is the Savior because of his message that God is love

Do you have any Scripture to back up the claim that "God is love."?
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”