Author Topic: Jesus, The Lost Years  (Read 455 times)

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Offline Graybeard

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Jesus, The Lost Years
« on: December 24, 2013, 04:08:26 PM »
In the Gospels we hear of the birth[1] of Jesus to a virgin[2]; of a census/tax scheme[3], of the massacre of the Innocents[4] and the flight to Egypt[5]

The next we hear of our hero is that he is preaching to the synagogue and getting big rounds of applause[6] All then goes quiet. Tumbleweed blows. There is silence. Then suddenly there is Jesus aged about 30, being baptised by John the Baptist.

Christians happily accept this. Did Jesus do nothing at all of significance during that time? Two years old to thirteen? Thirteen to thirty? Nothing?

There are late writings, Infancy Gospel of ThomasWiki that purport to fill in the blanks. This was written in “the 2nd century. It was part of a popular genre of biblical work, written to satisfy a hunger among early Christians for more miraculous and anecdotal stories of the childhood of Jesus than the Gospel of Luke provided.”

But it never made the cut at Nicaea.

Now, if the public[7] were demanding stories, did they not demand other stories about Jesus? I’m sure they must have done. Miracles, resurrection ascension to heaven, are all good plot lines.

But the main point is that although Christians are hot on telling you how historically accurate the New Testament is, and how there was an historical Jesus[8], I have read very little that relates to Jesus prior to age 30. Why? Is there nobody looking for it? Have they given up on this one but not on Exodus or the Resurrection?

It makes you wonder what and where Jesus was prior to his sudden appearance as an adult. Son of God who did nothing? A simple human who had not yet realised his genetics?

And what happened to Joseph[9]?

There was a sect that believed that Jesus descended from heaven, fully grown and then re-ascended

They based their belief on
John 6:38: "I came down from heaven."
 
John 6:51 "I am the living bread which came down from heaven."
 
John 6:58 "This is that bread which came down from heaven."

Also John 16:28-30:


Of course the sect was all killed by forgiving Christians, but at least they provided a story that did not rely so much on so many invented words.

So, has anyone any ideas, information, etc, about the Young Jesus?

 1. date, place, and year obviously wrong
 2. even the early Church found this hard to accept
 3. that makes no sense
 4. which did not happen
 5. written in by an enthusiastic scribe to coincide with the prediction that the Messiah would come out of Egypt.
 6. Is this a reference to a Bar Mizvah? It would at least explain why Joseph and Mary had to travel to the temple.
 7. allegedly and who were these people?
 8. and fall silent when asked why there is no evidence at all of the Exodus
 9. there's a mysterious passage Joh:4:5: Then cometh he to a city of Samaria, which is called Sychar, near to the parcel of ground that Jacob gave to his son Joseph. Jesus was son of Joseph, son of Jacob. Was Joseph a Samaritan? It would certainly explain the persecution he felt and the parable.
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Tero

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Re: Jesus, The Lost Years
« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2013, 06:16:47 PM »
Well  it's obvious, if there is any connection of the legend to a real person. That real person only inspired stories a few years. Miracles, youth etc were added later.

Offline G-Roll

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Re: Jesus, The Lost Years
« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2013, 07:04:49 PM »
The book of Thomas was cut because Jesus was a little bad ass.

Quote
BESIDES this, the son of Anna the scribe was standing there with Joseph, and took a bough of a willow tree, and scattered the waters which Jesus had gathered into lakes.
2 But the boy Jesus seeing what he had done, became angry, and said to him, Thou fool, what harm did the lake do thee, that thou shouldest scatter the water?
3 Behold, now thou shalt wither as a tree, and shalt not bring forth either leaves, or branches, or fruit.
4 And immediately he became withered all over.
5 Then Jesus went away home. But the parents of the boy who was withered, lamenting the misfortune of his youth, took and carried him to Joseph, accusing him, and said, Why dost thou keep a son who is guilty of such actions?
6 Then Jesus at the request of all who were present did heal him, leaving only some small member to continue withered, that they might take warning.
7 ¶ Another time Jesus went forth into the street, and a boy running by, rushed upon his shoulder;
8 At which Jesus being angry, said to him, thou shalt go no farther.
9 And he instantly fell down dead:
10 Which when some persons saw, they said, Where was this boy born, that everything which he says presently cometh to pass?
11 Then the parents of the dead buy going to Joseph complained, saying, You are not fit to live with us, in our city, having such a boy as that:
12 Either teach him that he bless and not curse, or else depart hence with him, for he kills our children.
13 ¶ Then Joseph calling the boy Jesus by himself, instructed him saying, Why doest thou such things to injure the people so, that they hate us and prosecute us?
14 But Jesus replied, I know that what thou sayest is not of thyself, but for thy sake I will say nothing;
15 But they who have said these things to thee, shall suffer everlasting punishment.
16 And immediately they who had accused him became blind.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/lbob/lbob08.htm

Insert
Forget Noah Ark there's your movie! Its part karate kid as Joseph trains little angry hooligan Jesus to use his powers for good and part feel good Christian movie.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2013, 07:08:31 PM by G-Roll »

Online 12 Monkeys

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Re: Jesus, The Lost Years
« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2013, 09:03:54 PM »
Jesus the teenage years,according to the gospel was a selfish little prick,they were dismissed as  untrue by editors of the Bible.  Why is there no writings out there that paint teenage Jesus as the saint Christians hold him up to be.
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline gzusfreke

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Re: Jesus, The Lost Years
« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2013, 10:03:00 PM »
In the Gospels we hear of the birth[1] of Jesus to a virgin[2]; of a census/tax scheme[3], of the massacre of the Innocents[4] and the flight to Egypt[5]

The next we hear of our hero is that he is preaching to the synagogue and getting big rounds of applause[6] All then goes quiet. Tumbleweed blows. There is silence. Then suddenly there is Jesus aged about 30, being baptised by John the Baptist.

Christians happily accept this. Did Jesus do nothing at all of significance during that time? Two years old to thirteen? Thirteen to thirty? Nothing?
 1. date, place, and year obviously wrong
 2. even the early Church found this hard to accept
 3. that makes no sense
 4. which did not happen
 5. written in by an enthusiastic scribe to coincide with the prediction that the Messiah would come out of Egypt.
 6. Is this a reference to a Bar Mizvah? It would at least explain why Joseph and Mary had to travel to the temple.


Quote
But the main point is that although Christians are hot on telling you how historically accurate the New Testament is, and how there was an historical Jesus[7], I have read very little that relates to Jesus prior to age 30. Why? Is there nobody looking for it? Have they given up on this one but not on Exodus or the Resurrection?

It makes you wonder what and where Jesus was prior to his sudden appearance as an adult. Son of God who did nothing? A simple human who had not yet realised his genetics?
 7. and fall silent when asked why there is no evidence at all of the Exodus

Why the curiosity?  What other information do you seek? Read about the duties of the eldest son in 1st century Judaism and you'll get an idea of what he was responsible for. You should have an idea of what a carpenter did back then and what type of tools he worked with. But the Bible tells us what was going on with Jesus between the episodes that are reported:

"And Jesus increased in wisdom and in stature and in favor with God and man." Luke 2:52


Quote
And what happened to Joseph[8]?
 8. there's a mysterious passage Joh:4:5: Then cometh he to a city of Samaria, which is called Sychar, near to the parcel of ground that Jacob gave to his son Joseph. Jesus was son of Joseph, son of Jacob. Was Joseph a Samaritan? It would certainly explain the persecution he felt and the parable.

Friend, you have the Joseph of the Gospels confused with Joseph the son of Jacob in the Old Testament.

Joshua 24:32 "And Joseph's bones, which the Israelites had brought up from Egypt, were buried at Shechem in the tract of land that Jacob bought for a hundred pieces of silver from the sons of Hamor, the father of Shechem. This became the inheritance of Joseph's descendants."

Shechem and Sychar are the same place.



A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline jetson

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Re: Jesus, The Lost Years
« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2013, 11:40:44 PM »
gzuzfreke,

I don't know what type of Christian you claim to be, but doesn't it peak your curiosity at all to consider the actual question regarding the historic understanding of a character such as Christ Jesus?  I mean, are you perfectly OK with not worrying about the first thirty years of his life, given that you believe he was actually YHWH (not sure if you think Jesus is also YHWH).

In the world of critical historic analysis, a character such as Jesus would necessarily be extensively documented, and leaving out that much of his life would make that character difficult to support without granting a lot of freedom in speculation.

I have gone back and forth on the issue of whether he even existed.  I currently believe he may be based on a real person, but most of the stories that survive today are embellishments to support the new direction from Judaism to what ended up as Christianity.  It certainly makes far more sense than the mess of stuff voted into the final canon.

Offline jetson

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Re: Jesus, The Lost Years
« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2013, 11:43:34 PM »
By the way, if you really want some entertainment on the early years, pick up a copy of "Lamb", by Christopher Moore.  Brilliant story of Jesus from about 10 to the end.  Funny, and surprisingly not that blasphemous, if not taken too seriously.  It is fiction, but totally as believable as the stories in the Bible.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Jesus, The Lost Years
« Reply #7 on: December 25, 2013, 08:00:17 AM »
Why the curiosity?
Quote
Well obviously, I try to take take nothing for granted. Mankind has a huge intelligence and curiosity - do you believe that we should not make use of it?

Quote
Quote
And what happened to Joseph[1]?
 1. there's a mysterious passage Joh:4:5: Then cometh he to a city of Samaria, which is called Sychar, near to the parcel of ground that Jacob gave to his son Joseph. Jesus was son of Joseph, son of Jacob. Was Joseph a Samaritan? It would certainly explain the persecution he felt and the parable.

Friend, you have the Joseph of the Gospels confused with Joseph the son of Jacob in the Old Testament.
No. I have no such confusion, and what you say is strange. The Joseph you mention was buried in Egypt, but the Joseph I mention obviously had land in Samaria. But more to the point, Joseph (husband of Mary but not father of Jesus), in theory at least, should cover both Testaments, shouldn't he? He was there both before and after Jesus.

Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline gzusfreke

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Re: Jesus, The Lost Years
« Reply #8 on: December 25, 2013, 10:42:49 AM »
gzuzfreke,

I don't know what type of Christian you claim to be, but doesn't it peak your curiosity at all to consider the actual question regarding the historic understanding of a character such as Christ Jesus?

Sometimes, sure, but I have all the information at this time that I need to know.  The "missing information" doesn't diminish what we are told of the Christ in the Bible.

Quote
I mean, are you perfectly OK with not worrying about the first thirty years of his life,
Yes.

Quote
given that you believe he was actually YHWH (not sure if you think Jesus is also YHWH).

Yes, Jesus and the Father are one.  I believe in the trinitarian nature of God.  One God expressed in three Person.


Quote
In the world of critical historic analysis, a character such as Jesus would necessarily be extensively documented, and leaving out that much of his life would make that character difficult to support without granting a lot of freedom in speculation.

That's a good opinion you have there, but it is just that.  We could say the same about Hannibal, Genghis Khan, Buddha, Mohammed, the Caesars, etc.


Quote
I have gone back and forth on the issue of whether he even existed.  I currently believe he may be based on a real person, but most of the stories that survive today are embellishments to support the new direction from Judaism to what ended up as Christianity.  It certainly makes far more sense than the mess of stuff voted into the final canon.

Have your read any of Dr. Gary Habermas' works?

http://www.garyhabermas.com
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline gzusfreke

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Re: Jesus, The Lost Years
« Reply #9 on: December 25, 2013, 10:52:50 AM »
And what happened to Joseph[1]?
 1. there's a mysterious passage Joh:4:5: Then cometh he to a city of Samaria, which is called Sychar, near to the parcel of ground that Jacob gave to his son Joseph. Jesus was son of Joseph, son of Jacob. Was Joseph a Samaritan? It would certainly explain the persecution he felt and the parable.

Quote
Friend, you have the Joseph of the Gospels confused with Joseph the son of Jacob in the Old Testament.

Quote
No. I have no such confusion, and what you say is strange. The Joseph you mention was buried in Egypt, but the Joseph I mention obviously had land in Samaria. But more to the point, Joseph (husband of Mary but not father of Jesus), in theory at least, should cover both Testaments, shouldn't he? He was there both before and after Jesus.

Graybeard, what type of evidence would you require to show that the Joseph who had land in Samaria is the Joseph of the OT and not the Joseph of the Gospels?

The last book of the Old Testament is the book of Malachi.  It was written approximately 350 years before the birth of Christ. The Joseph of the Old Testament was about 2,500 years before the birth of Christ.

Jesus is a descendant of the OT Jacob, but not the OT Joseph.  Jesus is descended from Jacob's son Judah. I'll be happy to walk you through the Bible on this if you would like.

A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline jetson

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Re: Jesus, The Lost Years
« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2013, 07:32:02 PM »
That's a good opinion you have there, but it is just that.  We could say the same about Hannibal, Genghis Khan, Buddha, Mohammed, the Caesars, etc.

I'm perfectly happy calling it an opinion.  You, however, are certain you are right about your belief in this persons as an actual god, I presume?  If so, then I would say that you are missing out on any real understanding of the man outside of what some committee decided was important.  Without that committee, you would be lost in terms of any knowledge of the life of Jesus.

Bottom line, we only know what is contained in scripture, and that is subject to far more opinion and probable misunderstanding than opinions like mine.  Based on my personal understanding of the people that spoke on behalf of Jesus, he might have been a cool cat to hang out with (if I leave out the nonsense about how he may return and kill all the non-believers).  Other than that, we know next to nothing about him, and believers are in the same boat - they know nothing more than what the Bible provides.

There are no gods, there never have been, and there never will be.  But if Jesus keeps you happy, then praise the lord indeed!