Author Topic: What do these people have in common?  (Read 822 times)

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Offline Dante

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Re: What do these people have in common?
« Reply #29 on: December 26, 2013, 12:45:01 PM »
Objectively speaking, this cannot be considered a rational decision. To decide to be a Christian requires to decide to believe some things in faith. That is to say, they accept as true ideas which have no evidence to support them as being true.

Like atheists with abiogenesis?

Abiogenesis is a hypothesis, not a theory. It isn't accepted as true, in the scientific cummunity, because it doesn't have adequate levels of evidence to be considered true.

Now you know.
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: What do these people have in common?
« Reply #30 on: December 26, 2013, 04:39:47 PM »
Objectively speaking, this cannot be considered a rational decision. To decide to be a Christian requires to decide to believe some things in faith. That is to say, they accept as true ideas which have no evidence to support them as being true.

Like atheists with abiogenesis?

Abiogenesis is a hypothesis, not a theory. It isn't accepted as true, in the scientific cummunity, because it doesn't have adequate levels of evidence to be considered true.

Now you know.

So how do you explain how life started, then?

If you say, "I don't know" then this leaves room that it could have been God. So it's nonsensical to say that there is no God.

Offline Willie

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Re: What do these people have in common?
« Reply #31 on: December 26, 2013, 06:48:44 PM »
So how do you explain how life started, then?

If you say, "I don't know" then this leaves room that it could have been God. So it's nonsensical to say that there is no God.

"I don't know" is an honest answer. "Abiogenesis" is an educated[1] guess. "God did it" is an uneducated guess. Thinking that you know that God did it, is just fooling yourself.
 1. "Educated" or "uneducated" in this context does not refer to how much schooling you've had, but to whether a guess has at least some basis in actual knowledge.

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Re: What do these people have in common?
« Reply #32 on: December 26, 2013, 07:49:16 PM »
What do da Vinci, Galileo, Newton, Tolstoy, Martin Luther King Jr., Kierkegaard, C.S. Lewis, Francis Collins, Nelson Mandela, all 44 U.S. Presidents, and billions and billions of people from every racial, ethnic, national, and political category imaginable have in common? Let us also include men and women from nearly every conceivable profession. Yes, the list of Christians includes some of the brightest and most successful people who have ever lived.

Now, tell me how it is that so many virtuous and brilliant people have been duped by the so-called fallacy of the divinity of Christ? I submit that many, many rational minds have, as the result of careful study and thought, arrived at the conclusion that Jesus Christ is, in fact, the son of God.

Most of the posts on this forum could lead one to conclude that the body of Christians is nothing more than a population of rubes. Please, may we not begin our conversations with that assumption?

Funny you mention Galileo

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_Galilei

Quote
Galileo was found "vehemently suspect of heresy", namely of having held the opinions that the Sun lies motionless at the centre of the universe, that the Earth is not at its centre and moves, and that one may hold and defend an opinion as probable after it has been declared contrary to Holy Scripture. He was required to "abjure, curse and detest" those opinions.[60]

He was sentenced to formal imprisonment at the pleasure of the Inquisition.[61] On the following day this was commuted to house arrest, which he remained under for the rest of his life.

His offending Dialogue was banned; and in an action not announced at the trial, publication of any of his works was forbidden, including any he might write in the future.[62]

As for the rest; some could not break the conditioning (since infancy) of the un-logic implanted by the Church, others knew to do so could destroy them (as had happened to Galileo), this applies especially to the politicians. Also, I'm certain a considerable number, despite their intelligence, were just plain hoodwinked.
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Offline Astreja

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Re: What do these people have in common?
« Reply #33 on: December 26, 2013, 08:04:30 PM »
If you say, "I don't know" then this leaves room that it could have been God. So it's nonsensical to say that there is no God.

It also leaves room that it could have been One Above All, a deity Who actually posts on this forum.

There's also the concept of pandeism, and the somewhat similar concept of lila in Hinduism, whereby a god transforms itself into the universe.  What if the Big Bang was a god blowing itself up in order to create the physical universe?  That hypothesis would at least explain the dearth of physical evidence for gods out there in space.
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Offline Ivellios

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Re: What do these people have in common?
« Reply #34 on: December 26, 2013, 08:17:55 PM »
I read some of a book called 'God's Debris.' In it a God, bored because he knows everything...

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: What do these people have in common?
« Reply #35 on: December 26, 2013, 08:25:50 PM »
If you say, "I don't know" then this leaves room that it could have been God. So it's nonsensical to say that there is no God.

It also leaves room that it could have been One Above All, a deity Who actually posts on this forum.

There's also the concept of pandeism, and the somewhat similar concept of lila in Hinduism, whereby a god transforms itself into the universe.  What if the Big Bang was a god blowing itself up in order to create the physical universe?  That hypothesis would at least explain the dearth of physical evidence for gods out there in space.

What if nothing could exist without God creating it?

Then all your responses of "Science shows this is how X happened" are certainly not proofs that god does not exist.

Offline Ivellios

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Re: What do these people have in common?
« Reply #36 on: December 26, 2013, 08:28:48 PM »
What if nothing could exist without God creating it?

Then all your responses of "Science shows this is how X happened" are certainly not proofs that god does not exist.

Please show scientific proof that leprechauns do not exist. Thank you.

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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: What do these people have in common?
« Reply #37 on: December 26, 2013, 08:36:48 PM »
What if nothing could exist without God creating it?

Then all your responses of "Science shows this is how X happened" are certainly not proofs that god does not exist.

Please show scientific proof that leprechauns do not exist. Thank you.

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Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: What do these people have in common?
« Reply #38 on: December 26, 2013, 10:23:22 PM »
What if nothing could exist without God creating it?

You would need to prove that nothing could exist without a god.

Then all your responses of "Science shows this is how X happened" are certainly not proofs that god does not exist.

Didn't you do your debate homework?

Shifting the burden of proof is a quick way to get people irritated.

For example, "Prove that a magical blue, green, and orange, potato is not in my sock drawer."
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Re: What do these people have in common?
« Reply #39 on: December 27, 2013, 08:05:59 AM »

What if nothing could exist without God creating it?

Then all your responses of "Science shows this is how X happened" are certainly not proofs that god does not exist.

Ahhh, the great "what If"

What if god couldn't exist without a creator creating god?

OR

What if everything could exist without a god? That seems the more plausible answer since we haven't seen hide nor hair of Bible God for over 2000 years.

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Offline Graybeard

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Re: What do these people have in common?
« Reply #40 on: December 27, 2013, 08:27:36 AM »
They can make proteins. Long way from that to life.
Rather in the same way that New York is a long way from Adelaide? At least they're on the same planet. The alternative of something magicking life into existence is certainly far more complex to understand.

Quote
Takes a leap of giant faith...
I don't know what faith giants have... you probably mean, "Takes a giant leap of faith.

Here's a definition of "faith" - "FAITH, n. Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel."
RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

Offline Quesi

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Re: What do these people have in common?
« Reply #41 on: December 27, 2013, 09:18:51 AM »
What do da Vinci, Galileo, Newton, Tolstoy, Martin Luther King Jr., Kierkegaard, C.S. Lewis, Francis Collins, Nelson Mandela, all 44 U.S. Presidents, and billions and billions of people from every racial, ethnic, national, and political category imaginable have in common? Let us also include men and women from nearly every conceivable profession. Yes, the list of Christians includes some of the brightest and most successful people who have ever lived.

Now, tell me how it is that so many virtuous and brilliant people have been duped by the so-called fallacy of the divinity of Christ? I submit that many, many rational minds have, as the result of careful study and thought, arrived at the conclusion that Jesus Christ is, in fact, the son of God.

Most of the posts on this forum could lead one to conclude that the body of Christians is nothing more than a population of rubes. Please, may we not begin our conversations with that assumption?

Wow.  That is a great list of amazing people!  Many of whom were  imprisoned, tortured and assassinated by Christians! 

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: What do these people have in common?
« Reply #42 on: December 27, 2013, 12:05:25 PM »

What if nothing could exist without God creating it?

Then all your responses of "Science shows this is how X happened" are certainly not proofs that god does not exist.

Ahhh, the great "what If"

What if god couldn't exist without a creator creating god?

OR

What if everything could exist without a god? That seems the more plausible answer since we haven't seen hide nor hair of Bible God for over 2000 years.

Did you know that you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a God that is hiding himself and a God that doesn't exist?

So, to pick either side is certainly a leap of faith on both sides.

Offline Dante

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Re: What do these people have in common?
« Reply #43 on: December 27, 2013, 12:12:34 PM »
Objectively speaking, this cannot be considered a rational decision. To decide to be a Christian requires to decide to believe some things in faith. That is to say, they accept as true ideas which have no evidence to support them as being true.

Like atheists with abiogenesis?

Abiogenesis is a hypothesis, not a theory. It isn't accepted as true, in the scientific cummunity, because it doesn't have adequate levels of evidence to be considered true.

Now you know.

So how do you explain how life started, then?

If you say, "I don't know" then this leaves room that it could have been God. So it's nonsensical to say that there is no God.

The point is that there is no faith in abiogenesis, which was your claim. We atheists, in general, don't require faith. We require evidence, the antithesis of faith, so please stop trying to build strawmen and false accusations. It makes you seem disingenuous.

When we say "I dont know", does that also leave room for any and every creation story, past, present, and future? If not, why not?
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline Dante

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Re: What do these people have in common?
« Reply #44 on: December 27, 2013, 12:17:12 PM »
Did you know that you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a God that is hiding himself and a God that doesn't exist?

Not exactly. We're taking the default position that if there is no evidence of a god (hidden or otherwise), there is no sense in imagining one. Why make one up?

Quote
So, to pick either side is certainly a leap of faith on both sides.

Nope. Please consider the following: How much faith does it take to not believe that ancient aliens populated this planet? I mean, it could have happened, right? So it takes a leap of faith for both sides, right? Really?

Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline Boots

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Re: What do these people have in common?
« Reply #45 on: December 27, 2013, 12:24:51 PM »

Abiogenesis is a hypothesis, not a theory. It isn't accepted as true, in the scientific cummunity, because it doesn't have adequate levels of evidence to be considered true.

Now you know.

So how do you explain how life started, then?

If you say, "I don't know" then this leaves room that it could have been God. So it's nonsensical to say that there is no God.

1) what if I say "I don't care??"  :-)  In an academic sense of course I do care, but knowing the answer will not, I think, substantively change my day-to-day life.  Unless cool scientific advances come from the answer...

2) The fact that every question on how things work that has ever had a satisfactory answer has come from science, and not from a supernatural being, lends credence to putting a trust that sciene will eventually come up with an answer to any question that science *can* answer.  Saying "I don't know" is part of the scientific process.  While it's technically true that "I don't know" leaves room that it could have been *a* god, it could have been ANY god.  Add to that the fact that with every answer science gives its track record improves, while further worsening the track record of the supernatural.  Given all that, it's nonsensical to say that "Well, since I don't know, then god!"
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Re: What do these people have in common?
« Reply #46 on: December 27, 2013, 12:45:00 PM »


Did you know that you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a God that is hiding himself and a God that doesn't exist?

So, to pick either side is certainly a leap of faith on both sides.

First off, that's a stupid statement. You think you backed me into some kind of conundrum?

I live my life based on things that are not hiding (lord knows why a god would hide himself), nor would I have faith in a god that doesn't exist. But you are right, there is no difference between the two.

You just keep swinging and swaying trying to avoid the evidence bullets, but you've been shot full of holes.
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: What do these people have in common?
« Reply #47 on: December 27, 2013, 11:33:41 PM »
What do da Vinci, Galileo, Newton, Tolstoy, Martin Luther King Jr., Kierkegaard, C.S. Lewis, Francis Collins, Nelson Mandela, all 44 U.S. Presidents, and billions and billions of people from every racial, ethnic, national, and political category imaginable have in common? Let us also include men and women from nearly every conceivable profession. Yes, the list of Christians includes some of the brightest and most successful people who have ever lived.

Now, tell me how it is that so many virtuous and brilliant people have been duped by the so-called fallacy of the divinity of Christ? I submit that many, many rational minds have, as the result of careful study and thought, arrived at the conclusion that Jesus Christ is, in fact, the son of God.

Most of the posts on this forum could lead one to conclude that the body of Christians is nothing more than a population of rubes. Please, may we not begin our conversations with that assumption?

Wow.  That is a great list of amazing people!  Many of whom were  imprisoned, tortured and assassinated by Christians!
I made a statement close to this on page 1 it was ignored
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Re: What do these people have in common?
« Reply #48 on: December 28, 2013, 02:02:24 PM »
What do da Vinci, Galileo, Newton, Tolstoy, Martin Luther King Jr., Kierkegaard, C.S. Lewis, Francis Collins, Nelson Mandela, all 44 U.S. Presidents, and billions and billions of people from every racial, ethnic, national, and political category imaginable have in common? Let us also include men and women from nearly every conceivable profession. Yes, the list of Christians includes some of the brightest and most successful people who have ever lived.

Now, tell me how it is that so many virtuous and brilliant people have been duped by the so-called fallacy of the divinity of Christ? I submit that many, many rational minds have, as the result of careful study and thought, arrived at the conclusion that Jesus Christ is, in fact, the son of God.

Most of the posts on this forum could lead one to conclude that the body of Christians is nothing more than a population of rubes. Please, may we not begin our conversations with that assumption?

Wow.  That is a great list of amazing people!  Many of whom were  imprisoned, tortured and assassinated by Christians!
I made a statement close to this on page 1 it was ignored

And I said this....


Quote
You just keep swinging and swaying trying to avoid the evidence bullets, but you've been shot full of holes.



Can you say TROLL?

I am waiting for one True Christian to be able to answer most of our questions legitimately, but all they do is dip, dodge, wiggle, twist, philosophize and say we have no morals. 
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: What do these people have in common?
« Reply #49 on: December 28, 2013, 02:16:28 PM »
Did you know that you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a God that is hiding himself and a God that doesn't exist?

So, to pick either side is certainly a leap of faith on both sides.

But skeptic... what if you have chosen the wrong god - all you are doing is pissing off some other god, aren't you. He's going to be really mad with you by the time you get to see him.

But I'll be there putting my case for entry to that god's heaven, and you'll be damned for all eternity into some other god's personal hell.

Sit on the fence: if your God is real, He'll forgive you -> it's His job.
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Re: What do these people have in common?
« Reply #50 on: December 28, 2013, 06:39:57 PM »
Did you know that you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a God that is hiding himself and a God that doesn't exist?

So the god in the OT could be trying to hide himself because he is really the demon Baal in disguise?

No wonder you found that Catholics use Baal's symbols. They got it right. In many places in the OT it slips out that he is really Baal and in one place Baal says don't call me Baal anymore I'm hiding in disguise, call me Yahweh. (Hosea)
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