Author Topic: Are we sure these 50 are proofs?  (Read 2113 times)

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Offline Matthieu

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Are we sure these 50 are proofs?
« on: December 23, 2013, 07:43:40 PM »
I don’t think there is anyone living who knows with complete certainty that God exists. Likewise, God’s existence cannot be disproven either. I have yet to read all 50 of the supposed proofs on this site, but of those I have read, I would call them thought-provoking, at best. For example, proof #10 (godisimaginary.com/i10.htm) questions the need of God for money and his need for people to provide it in order that his will may be done. The Christian answer is that God does not need money, and could, in fact, cause it to rain turkey sandwiches for the poor if He wanted to. What God wants is to build in people the quality of charity, among other things. Paying a tithe is one way God instills in us that quality.

Offline lotanddaughters

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Re: Are we sure these 50 are proofs?
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2013, 08:16:04 PM »
I don’t think there is anyone living who knows with complete certainty that God exists. Likewise, God’s existence cannot be disproven either.

I agree.





I have yet to read all 50 of the supposed proofs on this site, but of those I have read, I would call them thought-provoking, at best.
Really? That's cool.






For example, proof #10 (godisimaginary.com/i10.htm) questions the need of God for money and his need for people to provide it in order that his will may be done.
There are con artists in this world who sell "Holy Water" to desperate, gullible people. Proof #10 could be very helpful for someone's eyes to be opened to the fact that con artists all over the world have been using religion for their own personal benefit since ancient times.

If you aren't that gullible, and you didn't learn anything new from Proof #10, then good for you. Proof #10 wasn't that thought-provoking for me either.

But, just let me say, when I first came across the question "Why won't God heal amputees", I was like, "Wow. I never thought of that before." And, at that time, I had already been an atheist for umpteen years. For me, it was extremely thought-provoking. 






The Christian answer is that God does not need money, and could, in fact, cause it to rain turkey sandwiches for the poor if He wanted to. What God wants is to build in people the quality of charity, among other things. Paying a tithe is one way God instills in us that quality.

To be honest, I find this to be an extremely unsatisfying answer. I could never even consider it to be thought-provoking. The best I can say is that money-hungry  predators could use it to prey on extremely gullible people.
Enough with your bullshit.
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Offline gzusfreke

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Re: Are we sure these 50 are proofs?
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2013, 08:24:09 PM »

The Christian answer is that God does not need money, and could, in fact, cause it to rain turkey sandwiches for the poor if He wanted to. What God wants is to build in people the quality of charity, among other things. Paying a tithe is one way God instills in us that quality.

To be honest, I find this to be an extremely unsatisfying answer. I could never even consider it to be thought-provoking. The best I can say is that money-hungry  predators could use it to prey on extremely gullible people.

Whether some predators choose to ask for donations is not relevant to the fact that the Bible does indeed instruct God's people to give to support the poor.  In the OT, the Israelites gave for the upkeep of the Tabernacle, then the Temple, and for the maintenance of the priestly tribe of Levi, who could not own land like the other 11 tribes. In the NT, believers were instructed to take up collections for the poor and to pay their pastors.

For believers, giving to others does help instill charity within a person (at least among people I know) and demonstrates dependence on God for one's "daily bread."

The Bible does not instruct atheists and agnostics to give to anyone, so you're off the hook.
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline lotanddaughters

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Re: Are we sure these 50 are proofs?
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2013, 09:05:00 PM »

The Christian answer is that God does not need money, and could, in fact, cause it to rain turkey sandwiches for the poor if He wanted to. What God wants is to build in people the quality of charity, among other things. Paying a tithe is one way God instills in us that quality.

To be honest, I find this to be an extremely unsatisfying answer. I could never even consider it to be thought-provoking. The best I can say is that money-hungry  predators could use it to prey on extremely gullible people.

Whether some predators choose to ask for donations is not relevant to the fact that the Bible does indeed instruct God's people to give to support the poor.  In the OT, the Israelites gave for the upkeep of the Tabernacle, then the Temple, and for the maintenance of the priestly tribe of Levi, who could not own land like the other 11 tribes. In the NT, believers were instructed to take up collections for the poor and to pay their pastors.
Well, even if the Bible instructs God's people to give to support the poor, and con artists derive their ways from non-biblical sources, it doesn't change the fact that some people might need their eyes opened to all religious nonsense-- biblical or non-biblical.

Like I said to Matthieu, if you didn't learn anything from Proof #10, that's okay. Neither did I.






For believers, giving to others does help instill charity within a person (at least among people I know) . . .
I would agree, even including believers and nonbelievers alike.






. . . and demonstrates dependence on God for one's "daily bread."
Yes, perhaps for the believer. The thing is, if you still believe in "the God of the Bible"[1], perhaps hanging out in this forum can help cure that.








The Bible does not instruct atheists and agnostics to give to anyone, so you're off the hook.
:laugh:





 1. "The God of the Bible" is an ever-evolving god-- from one god of a polytheistic pantheon, all the way to a Trinity concept(thanks to various councils and verses added to the Bible even as late as the 3rd or 4th century CE).
Enough with your bullshit.
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Re: Are we sure these 50 are proofs?
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2013, 09:08:54 PM »
The Bible does not instruct atheists and agnostics to give to anyone, so you're off the hook.

Yea, I give and give, but it is because I want to do it, not because I'm supposed to, so it just isn't as satisfying. I envy those of you who are under a theistic court order to do it.
Not everyone is entitled to their opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline gzusfreke

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Re: Are we sure these 50 are proofs?
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2013, 09:14:16 PM »
The Bible does not instruct atheists and agnostics to give to anyone, so you're off the hook.

Yea, I give and give, but it is because I want to do it, not because I'm supposed to, so it just isn't as satisfying. I envy those of you who are under a theistic court order to do it.

You apparently aren't familiar with what the Bible teaches (which makes it hard to knock it if you don't know it), but here is the "theistic order" you speak of:

"Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver." 2 Coriinthians 9:7 NIV

A lot of guilt-ridden compulsion in that "theistic order," isn't there? ;)
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Offline lotanddaughters

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Re: Are we sure these 50 are proofs?
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2013, 10:39:37 PM »
"Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver." 2 Coriinthians 9:7 NIV

A lot of guilt-ridden compulsion in that "theistic order," isn't there? ;)
"They shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey us, he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death; so you shall remove the evil from your midst, and all Israel will hear of it and fear." -Deuteronomy 21:20-21
Enough with your bullshit.
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Offline gzusfreke

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Re: Are we sure these 50 are proofs?
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2013, 10:54:23 PM »
"Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver." 2 Coriinthians 9:7 NIV

A lot of guilt-ridden compulsion in that "theistic order," isn't there? ;)
"They shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey us, he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death; so you shall remove the evil from your midst, and all Israel will hear of it and fear." -Deuteronomy 21:20-21

Read Acts chapter 15 and you will see that the Jewish believers did not hang the Mosaic Law on the Gentile believers, other than abstaining from eating blood and abstaining from immorality. Gentile believers and also the Jewish believers that Paul wrote 2 Corinthians to were not instructed to tithe.
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline mhaberling

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Re: Are we sure these 50 are proofs?
« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2013, 01:19:21 AM »
I am actually not going to respond to this in a religious context at all. Instead, here is my problem with them calling these proofs. Proof means that an exclusive implication lies between the assumption and the implication. Nothing on that sight that I read has that quality. Using that word is disingenuous.
"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." - Benjamin Franklin

Offline Astreja

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Re: Are we sure these 50 are proofs?
« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2013, 01:33:32 AM »
I am actually not going to respond to this in a religious context at all. Instead, here is my problem with them calling these proofs. Proof means that an exclusive implication lies between the assumption and the implication. Nothing on that sight that I read has that quality. Using that word is disingenuous.
I agree -- "Proof" implies the ability to demonstrate something with certainty, so "evidence" would be a better word.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Are we sure these 50 are proofs?
« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2013, 03:35:33 AM »
What God wants is to build in people the quality of charity, among other things. Paying a tithe is one way God instills in us that quality.

See, the numbers just don't work for me.  Using 2006 data....

Median Income per household in USA - $26,000
Households in the US - 116,000,000
Christians in US - 73%

10% tithe from Christians is therefore around $220 BILLION dollars.  Yep, I was staggered as well.  Where is all that money going?  Because that could feed everyone in the world, no problems.  (To put it in perspective, that's around the GNP of countries such as Israel or Ireland, and twice the GNP of Hungary).

So I can only conclude that either:
The VAST majority of Christians are ignoring god's word, OR
The VAST majority of people in the USA are not really Christians.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Matthieu

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Re: Are we sure these 50 are proofs?
« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2013, 10:40:20 AM »
What God wants is to build in people the quality of charity, among other things. Paying a tithe is one way God instills in us that quality.

[Regarding the fact that not all Christians pay a tithe.]

So I can only conclude that either:
The VAST majority of Christians are ignoring god's word, OR
The VAST majority of people in the USA are not really Christians.

There are some Christians that do not believe that giving a full tithe is necessary. There are others who call themselves Christians but do not work very hard at keeping the commandments. There are also many Christians who do pay a tithe, even when their own financial circumstances are wobbly. It unproductive, though tempting, to judge the merits of Christianity on the weaknesses of its adherents.

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Re: Are we sure these 50 are proofs?
« Reply #12 on: December 24, 2013, 11:15:52 AM »
The Bible does not instruct atheists and agnostics to give to anyone, so you're off the hook.

Yea, I give and give, but it is because I want to do it, not because I'm supposed to, so it just isn't as satisfying. I envy those of you who are under a theistic court order to do it.

You apparently aren't familiar with what the Bible teaches (which makes it hard to knock it if you don't know it), but here is the "theistic order" you speak of:

"Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver." 2 Coriinthians 9:7 NIV

A lot of guilt-ridden compulsion in that "theistic order," isn't there? ;)

That is somewhat different than what I encountered. About fifteen years ago I accompanied an elderly friend to her church because her husband had died about ten days earlier and she wanted to be at the services. I sat down with her in the pew and was quickly handed a form to fill out as a prospective new member, and it included the request that i consider donating 10% of my income if I joined. And this was long enough ago that I wasn't yet careful with my email address, so I simply wrote down my name and email and noted that I was just visiting. I got emails daily asking me when I was going to start contributing until I figured out yahoo well enough to stop that problem.

It probably wasn't a requirement, but had I joined, they would have made me feel like crap if I didn't pay enough.

So, like everything else in christianity, there is some variation there. I'm not the one who has to know the bible. But the followers should.
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Offline abbysometh1ng

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Re: Are we sure these 50 are proofs?
« Reply #13 on: December 24, 2013, 11:32:33 AM »
When my son died in October, I found a few thousand dollars from a fundraiser that was given for him by his friends towards the end of his life. He never had a chance to use it, but had hidden it in a small bag in his closet.  Nobody knew that it was there, just me.  I pondered what to do with this money…it was raised for Joe by people who wanted to make his life just a little easier.

 Now, I could really use a new ATV and I had paid for many of his bills in the preceding months. I had paid for half his funeral costs. I had lost my paycheck for over 8 months to care for him.  I could easily justify it to myself that this money should really be MY money if I wanted it to be. But I felt that this money was given for a purpose…and that purpose was not to benefit ME).

So I decided to give the money to a woman who had young kids and whose husband had recently been diagnosed with advanced lung cancer. She was struggling financially and I knew that it hurt her when she couldn’t provide her kids with the little things that mean so much to children.  I gave it to her in a way that made it very clear that the money was not mine and that it was given to her because I thought that Joe would have approved.  I was not interested in her gratefulness or obligation; I just wanted to make her life a little more bearable.  The gift was not from me, but was from my son, after his death. 

As an atheist, I like to put $ where I think it will do the most good.  I do not need a god to instruct me to do this.  I will help where I can, when I can.

 I could be wrong on this, but this tithing thing…isn’t that a throwback to the times when it fell solely on the churches to financially support the elderly, sick, or poor? Do they do that now to a significant extent?  It seems to me that the government has taken over many of the costs that the churches used to use the tithing money for… I just get a bad taste in my mouth when I hear about tithing to an institution that has obvious wealth, no taxes, and seems to be using the bulk of their money to further their own agenda.


Offline Matthieu

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Re: Are we sure these 50 are proofs?
« Reply #14 on: December 24, 2013, 02:31:39 PM »
I'm very sorry to hear about your son. I lost my brother this year and watching my mother cope has been heart-breaking.

Your gift to your friend in need is absolutely an expression of charity and love and I am grateful there are a lot of people like you in the world. Some of us are not gifted with a very deep love for one another. Some of us need God to help us develop love for our neighbors (not to mention our enemies).

I don't know how many Christian denominations ask for a tithe. I do know that in general, tithes support the mission of the church as well as the maintenance of their buildings. However, as I said earlier, the real benefactor of tithing is the tithe payer.




Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Are we sure these 50 are proofs?
« Reply #15 on: December 24, 2013, 04:18:13 PM »
There are some Christians that do not believe that giving a full tithe is necessary. There are others who call themselves Christians but do not work very hard at keeping the commandments. There are also many Christians who do pay a tithe, even when their own financial circumstances are wobbly. It unproductive, though tempting, to judge the merits of Christianity on the weaknesses of its adherents.

Really?  I'd have thought that the strength and benefit of any philosophic system would be in how it's adherents differ from those who follow a different path.  What you seem to be saying here is that (a) so called "Christians" can pick and choose the elements of the faith they follow, and that (b) Christianity often makes little or no difference to the character of its followers.  Take those things together, and I find it hard to spot the benefits of this particular worldview.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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Offline Matthieu

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Re: Are we sure these 50 are proofs?
« Reply #16 on: December 24, 2013, 04:48:21 PM »
There are some Christians that do not believe that giving a full tithe is necessary. There are others who call themselves Christians but do not work very hard at keeping the commandments. There are also many Christians who do pay a tithe, even when their own financial circumstances are wobbly. It unproductive, though tempting, to judge the merits of Christianity on the weaknesses of its adherents.

What you seem to be saying here is that (a) so called "Christians" can pick and choose the elements of the faith they follow, and that (b) Christianity often makes little or no difference to the character of its followers.

Let me be more clear then. Christians cannot pick and choose what commandments they wish to follow. However, there is no perfect Christian and each of us fails to meet the standard, for a variety of reasons. And you can witness the good that arises in an individual when he makes a sincere effort to follow Christ's example.

Offline bertatberts

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Re: Are we sure these 50 are proofs?
« Reply #17 on: December 24, 2013, 04:52:01 PM »
I don’t think there is anyone living who knows with complete certainty that God exists. Likewise, God’s existence cannot be disproven either.
Yes a god could exist, but that does not mean it is your god. does it. So your point is moot.
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Are we sure these 50 are proofs?
« Reply #18 on: December 24, 2013, 04:53:13 PM »
I don’t think there is anyone living who knows with complete certainty that God exists. Likewise, God’s existence cannot be disproven either. I have yet to read all 50 of the supposed proofs on this site, but of those I have read, I would call them thought-provoking, at best. For example, proof #10 (godisimaginary.com/i10.htm) questions the need of God for money and his need for people to provide it in order that his will may be done. The Christian answer is that God does not need money, and could, in fact, cause it to rain turkey sandwiches for the poor if He wanted to. What God wants is to build in people the quality of charity, among other things. Paying a tithe is one way God instills in us that quality.
I am always disturbed when God and money is discussed. As you are obviously not a Christian[1] I will tell you now that God directly demands money.

It is true that you, personally, had absolutely no idea that He did this... but He does: the Bible says so.

Quote
God does not need money, and could, in fact, cause it to rain turkey sandwiches for the poor if He wanted to.

Honestly? You believe that? I tell you: God does not exist. Gods cannot exist. Gods are the demonstration of mankind's ignorance. Gods demand that you do not think: as far as you are concerned, one of the 5,000+ gods that there are and have been has succeeded in causing you not to think:


Where is his turkey sandwich... where is your god?




 1. You know absolutely nothing about the Bible and The Word of God
RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

Offline Matthieu

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Re: Are we sure these 50 are proofs?
« Reply #19 on: December 24, 2013, 05:07:10 PM »
I don’t think there is anyone living who knows with complete certainty that God exists. Likewise, God’s existence cannot be disproven either. I have yet to read all 50 of the supposed proofs on this site, but of those I have read, I would call them thought-provoking, at best. For example, proof #10 (godisimaginary.com/i10.htm) questions the need of God for money and his need for people to provide it in order that his will may be done. The Christian answer is that God does not need money, and could, in fact, cause it to rain turkey sandwiches for the poor if He wanted to. What God wants is to build in people the quality of charity, among other things. Paying a tithe is one way God instills in us that quality.

Demanding that people pay money and His needing our money are two different things.


I will tell you now that God directly demands money.

You think that atheists have the market cornered on compassion and service? Do you think that Christians the world over are not offering material support for the homeless and hungry?

Quotes fixed GB Mod

« Last Edit: December 24, 2013, 05:31:18 PM by Graybeard »

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Are we sure these 50 are proofs?
« Reply #20 on: December 24, 2013, 05:44:51 PM »
Mattieu,

There's no use saying on the one hand that God can rain turkey sandwiches (other than to tell us that you have a Western-centrism and worship a western centric god) and then telling us of the obsession that churches have for money.

If you are saying that churches are charitable organisations, you need only look at some of the tax-free fortunes made by mega churches (e.g. the Vatican, Jim Haggard, etc.)

If you are going to say "They are not all the same." I agree, but this merely proves that everyone's idea of god is individual and, as a consequence, points clearly at all gods being "all in the mind."

If you want to mention some really helpful churches that use money wisely and effectively, you need to tell us why god can be left out of that equation and the charity and good works still exist.

So. What is your point?
People need to be motivated by a myth in order to be good? I think not.
Primitive people need to be told about Jesus because their gods are rubbish? Arrogant, eh?
Here's a piece of history from Christianity's glorious past:

  • Mzee Jomo Kenyatta, the first President of Kenya said: "We had the land and they had the Bible. Then they told us to close our eyes and pray. So we closed out eyes and prayed. When we opened our eyes, we found that we had the Bible and they had the land".

Who were those Christians who did that?

What sort of a world do you want, Mattieu? A theocracy? Like Iran/Afghanistan?

Why did your god not send food to that child but send food to the vulture?
RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Are we sure these 50 are proofs?
« Reply #21 on: December 24, 2013, 08:01:26 PM »
Those proofs are supposed to be thought-provoking.  They are supposed to make Christians think, not simply serve as an excuse to rationalize what one already believes.  And certainly not an excuse to play "No True Christian".

And worse still is trying to pass off institutional requirements for things like tithing as being "God's will".

Offline gzusfreke

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Re: Are we sure these 50 are proofs?
« Reply #22 on: December 24, 2013, 09:21:51 PM »
What God wants is to build in people the quality of charity, among other things. Paying a tithe is one way God instills in us that quality.

See, the numbers just don't work for me.  Using 2006 data....

Median Income per household in USA - $26,000
Households in the US - 116,000,000
Christians in US - 73%

10% tithe from Christians is therefore around $220 BILLION dollars.  Yep, I was staggered as well.  Where is all that money going?  Because that could feed everyone in the world, no problems.  (To put it in perspective, that's around the GNP of countries such as Israel or Ireland, and twice the GNP of Hungary).

So I can only conclude that either:
The VAST majority of Christians are ignoring god's word, OR
The VAST majority of people in the USA are not really Christians.

The vast majority of people in the USA are not really Christians (or true Scotsmen) but even if they were, they are not under obligation to tithe.
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline gzusfreke

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Re: Are we sure these 50 are proofs?
« Reply #23 on: December 24, 2013, 09:24:32 PM »
The Bible does not instruct atheists and agnostics to give to anyone, so you're off the hook.

Yea, I give and give, but it is because I want to do it, not because I'm supposed to, so it just isn't as satisfying. I envy those of you who are under a theistic court order to do it.

You apparently aren't familiar with what the Bible teaches (which makes it hard to knock it if you don't know it), but here is the "theistic order" you speak of:

"Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver." 2 Coriinthians 9:7 NIV

A lot of guilt-ridden compulsion in that "theistic order," isn't there? ;)

That is somewhat different than what I encountered. About fifteen years ago I accompanied an elderly friend to her church because her husband had died about ten days earlier and she wanted to be at the services. I sat down with her in the pew and was quickly handed a form to fill out as a prospective new member, and it included the request that i consider donating 10% of my income if I joined. And this was long enough ago that I wasn't yet careful with my email address, so I simply wrote down my name and email and noted that I was just visiting. I got emails daily asking me when I was going to start contributing until I figured out yahoo well enough to stop that problem.

It probably wasn't a requirement, but had I joined, they would have made me feel like crap if I didn't pay enough.

So, like everything else in christianity, there is some variation there. I'm not the one who has to know the bible. But the followers should.

Unfortunately there are variations, often a result of not knowing the full counsel of the Bible but only bits and pieces.  I am sorry for your bad experience.  And yes, followers should know the Bible.
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Are we sure these 50 are proofs?
« Reply #24 on: December 24, 2013, 10:06:19 PM »
The 50 proofs certainly are not proofs. The "proofs" that this website offers are only thought-provoking if you did not graduate from 1st grade.

Anyone with an education past 1st grade should not be "wowed" by these proofs.

Many theists (including myself) have answered why God doesn't heal amputees and wrote refutations of the 50 proofs, but the atheists refuse any answer that we give because they have a bias against God and Christianity.

An honest person would admit the proofs are bogus and full of more holes than a cheese grater.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Are we sure these 50 are proofs?
« Reply #25 on: December 24, 2013, 10:55:40 PM »
The 50 proofs certainly are not proofs. The "proofs" that this website offers are only thought-provoking if you did not graduate from 1st grade.

Anyone with an education past 1st grade should not be "wowed" by these proofs.

Many theists (including myself) have answered why God doesn't heal amputees and wrote refutations of the 50 proofs, but the atheists refuse any answer that we give because they have a bias against God and Christianity.

An honest person would admit the proofs are bogus and full of more holes than a cheese grater.
so could you also say anyone with grade 1 could also dismiss a bible god,probably not because the info is being crammed into their undeveloped brains by the adults in their life
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Are we sure these 50 are proofs?
« Reply #26 on: December 25, 2013, 02:03:26 AM »
What you seem to be saying here is that (a) so called "Christians" can pick and choose the elements of the faith they follow, and that (b) Christianity often makes little or no difference to the character of its followers.

Let me be more clear then. Christians cannot pick and choose what commandments they wish to follow. However, there is no perfect Christian and each of us fails to meet the standard, for a variety of reasons. And you can witness the good that arises in an individual when he makes a sincere effort to follow Christ's example.

As gzusfreke says:

The vast majority of people in the USA are not really Christians (or true Scotsmen)

But I repeat the key point of my post, which you cut in your response:
I'd have thought that the strength and benefit of any philosophic system would be in how it's adherents differ from those who follow a different path. 

Yes seem to be saying is that there are few if any "Christians" who actually do what their god asks of them - but that a lot of people try really hard and that shows how good they are.  Well sure - but a lot of Muslims, atheists, Hindus and Pagans also do good things, their beliefs (or lack of) also help them to become good people.....so I say again, I find it hard to spot the benefits of this particular worldview.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

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Re: Are we sure these 50 are proofs?
« Reply #27 on: December 25, 2013, 07:44:21 AM »
The vast majority of people in the USA are not really Christians (or true Scotsmen) but even if they were, they are not under obligation to tithe.

Well, there you go again, giving us your opinion, when we are looking for God's opinion. God demands tithes:

Mal:3:8: Will a man rob God?  Yet ye have robbed me.  But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee?  In tithes and offerings.
Mal:3:9: Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
Mal:3:10: Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.


So there you are: the obligation to tithe (I dread to think what God will do if you don't tithe... wait a minute, people have not tithed and nothing has happened! Could it be that there are no gods?
RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

Offline gzusfreke

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Re: Are we sure these 50 are proofs?
« Reply #28 on: December 25, 2013, 10:28:46 AM »
The vast majority of people in the USA are not really Christians (or true Scotsmen) but even if they were, they are not under obligation to tithe.

Well, there you go again, giving us your opinion, when we are looking for God's opinion. God demands tithes:

Mal:3:8: Will a man rob God?  Yet ye have robbed me.  But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee?  In tithes and offerings.
Mal:3:9: Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
Mal:3:10: Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.


So there you are: the obligation to tithe (I dread to think what God will do if you don't tithe... wait a minute, people have not tithed and nothing has happened! Could it be that there are no gods?

Graybeard, you set up a straw man for lack of knowledge.  The tithe was commanded to the Jews.  When Jesus fulfilled the Mosaic Law perfectly, He ushered in the New Covenant, which supersedes the Old Covenant (Mosaic Law) so both Jews and Gentiles are no longer bound to the tithe.  Instead, believers were instructed to give voluntarily and cheerfully. You can set up false assumptions all day long and then attack them for your own entertainment, but do not pretend that you know the Bible and what it means when you obviously either don't, or worse - you do and you purposely distort the truth.
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin