Author Topic: tithe is just manipulation....  (Read 1573 times)

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Offline wolfunchained

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tithe is just manipulation....
« on: December 21, 2013, 08:29:10 PM »
How come churches twist the use of the word "harvest" and exchange that word for "income".

Most (not all) churches have baptisimal vows which include paying 10% of your income to the church as one of them. When you are baptised you become a member of the church and you sign a baptisimal certificate to authenticate your membership. This certificate outlines all the major church doctrines you are to live your lifeby and honour god with.

I was brought up with it not knowing any different so it diddnt send off any alarm bells untill i got to 23 years old or so and i was woking over 60+ hours a week so i could afford to pay the 10% tithe and be "faithful" to god.

Its madness.

How come the bible specifically has a difference between offering 10% of your harvest in faith that god will bless your crops (as many people actually were common farmers when the bible was written) and their are examples where the bible uses terminology of a currency e.g when judas was paid in sheckles of silver to betray jesus....
He diddnt get paid in tithe of fruit and vege now did he?
There is no reference in the bible that tithe = wages.

My personal opinion is that religion saw an opportunity to make loads and loads of tax free cash and it caught on big time with many religions having a tithe clause in thier membershipa. It wouldnt bother me so much if it literally was a free will thing but when its in your vows to pay tithe i believe that is nonsense given the fact god never specifically asks for 10% of your wages.


My wifes cousins actually went without food sometimes as thier mother is a fanatical seventhday adventist, boardering on mental illness amd im not saying this disrespectfully, its fact, she would rather be faithful to god and pay tithe knowing god will provide than spend that money to feed her kids when she has the money to do it. Its sick.

Also an interesting note that god wants 10% of your harvest (crops) yet in genesis god rejectes cain's offering of fruit

and vege to god. Which lead to him killing his brother able.
now I've broken through the glass, im lacerated from my past, I climbed over my prison walls, the pain was delightful.

Offline Antidote

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Re: tithe is just manipulation....
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2013, 08:32:15 PM »
Like you say, it's a scam, I personally wasn't aware of it, despite going to church until I was 8 and told my mother that I didn't want to go to church anymore.
According to Cpt. Obvious: Theists think they know God, Atheists require evidence.

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Offline Backspace

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Re: tithe is just manipulation....
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2013, 09:13:50 PM »
I thought the lord was supposed to provide. 

I always thought it ironic - even as a kid - that during the passing of the plate in church, the blowhard on stage would go on about how the lord would provide.  Scammers to the end.
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Offline Mooby

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Re: tithe is just manipulation....
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2013, 09:28:14 AM »
I can't speak for other denominations, but Catholics believe it should be the norm to give 10% back to God, usually divided as 5% to the Church and 5% to charity. Though we understand that some cannot afford to give 10%, and some can afford far more than 10%; 10% is simply the norm. We are thankful to those who can spare even $1 to donate a week.
"I'm doing science and I'm still alive."--J.C.

Online wheels5894

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Re: tithe is just manipulation....
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2013, 10:48:10 AM »
Sorry, but I thought, after everone else leftm the minster took the offering plate and threw the contents into the air. Anything god wanted he took and the minster had the rest.  ;D
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Mooby

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Re: tithe is just manipulation....
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2013, 04:54:44 PM »
At my parents' church the basket is taken to the rectory where volunteers count it.  I know this because I used to work there and one of my duties was carrying the basket over.  The revenue was printed in the following week's parish bulletin for transparency.

I'm guessing the process is similar for other churches, minus the printing (that's the only church where I've seen it.)
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: tithe is just manipulation....
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2013, 05:08:45 PM »
At my church we are encouraged to have 'soft hearts and to give hard'. Like many churches, the amount given varies from a very small amount to hundreds of dollars per week. Personally, I believe that everything I have is a blessing and a gift from God, and that it is an appropriate response for me to give towards the church's ministry.

Nobody who works at our church does so for the money, just about all full time staff members are qualified in professions that would provide them a much better income.
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Offline gzusfreke

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Re: tithe is just manipulation....
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2013, 10:09:17 PM »
I've been a member of churches that teach that the tithe is the appropriate starting place, but didn't require signing any document of membership attesting to such, nor were there any church covenants or creeds that required it.

I've also been in churches that teach that the tithe was for the Jews but not for God's people after Jesus' resurrection.

It is unfortunate that many pastors, elders, and church members don't even know what the Bible truly teaches about giving.  Giving in the New Testament is not compulsory and there is not percentage stipulated.  And the money was given for taking care of the poor and the for the full-time pastors. 

"Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver." 2 Corinthians 9:7

Voluntary, cheerful, no set amount.  Doesn't sound that bad to me.
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Online Graybeard

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Re: tithe is just manipulation....
« Reply #8 on: December 26, 2013, 11:49:40 AM »
I can't speak for other denominations, but Catholics believe it should be the norm to give 10% back to God, usually divided as 5% to the Church and 5% to charity. Though we understand that some cannot afford to give 10%, and some can afford far more than 10%; 10% is simply the norm. We are thankful to those who can spare even $1 to donate a week.
If you are going to tax anyone, it should be on "disposable income" only, not gross or net income.

As an atheist, I have no objections to charity per se, although, in this day and age, charity should not be needed, as laws and the welfare state should cover the needs of the people and justice for all. However, I prefer government taxes as they don't come with any dogma attached, neither do they perpetuate myths and you have one day every 4 or five years when you can vote.

Having a group of people believe three impossible things before breakfast, involving them in arcane and pointless rituals, and then extracting money from them has a strangely binding effect amongst those who allow themselves to become involved. It is said that "adversity makes strange bedfellows" and it's true: if you do all that, you'll be dedicated to the group and shell out. The Head Man can then look good by spending your money where it will reach most converts - he thus perpetuates the system.

Or perhaps I'm becoming cynical.

 
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Online wheels5894

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Re: tithe is just manipulation....
« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2013, 12:03:29 PM »
We still have this odd idea of money 'for god'. This god doesn't ever actually tame any of it - he, as defined hardly needs it. So, actually, it is for the purposes of keeping the church up and running (synagogue have pew tax fro that!) and chritable giving. I have never understood whay churches can't just plainly say that one needs to pay a membership subscription - golf clubs don't ask for money for god do they? So why should a church - a human insitution, albeit one devoted to worship of a diety, not do the same?
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Boots

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Re: tithe is just manipulation....
« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2013, 01:17:25 PM »
At my church we are encouraged to have 'soft hearts and to give hard'.

mm....mmmm....must....resist urge...for...tasteless jokes....
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Offline wolfunchained

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Re: tithe is just manipulation....
« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2013, 01:23:01 PM »
i agree with wheels5894 that people have this perception that they are literally giving thier money to god! its not the case as god would have the biggest feckin bank account ever! (next to the jews and the vatican!)

i dont deny that alot of churches do use thier money for ministry which has a purpose.....a purpose which in my opinion is to enslave weak minds to keep coming along to church and keep giving to fund thier "ministry"
if church really was a worthy ministry then why do governments not fund it to employ ministers? ill tell you why. this is a fact.

the SDA church alone has an income of over $3 BILLION per year in just tithe alone. this web address has the stats as of 2013 for the sda church.
http://www.adventist.org/information/statistics/article/go/0/seventh-day-adventist-world-church-statistics-2011/

this is funded by all church members.

this is astronomical money. its just one denomination of many. there is so much tax free money circulating the world through churches that its mind blowing!!

but what is the actual gain through running a church? is it really to save souls and safe guard your soul to enternal bliss in heaven or is it to fund an industry that provides jobs? the continual need to spread the gospel and gain more baptised members is to keep up the ever increasing costs of a church.
its a simple cycle. Born SDA, gets baptised, starts paying tithe, teaches its children the same, church gains more money to do seminars and go door to door. all it takes is one family to join, teach all the next generation and boom!..more income.

the website link i put shows over 232,000 active jobs in the sda church world wide. Thats a lot of wages to pay.

i think you all get my drift. people are simply not aware of the massive amounts of money required to run organised religion. without tithe it would not function....and lets face it, organisations make money or they close the doors. Its the same with any small local church.
when they run out of money they close the doors. GOD DOES NOT MIRACULOUSLY KEEP THEM OPEN.

another little point.

ever since i left the church and stopped wasting my money i have,

Got married
Got a higher paying job
Brought a house, i was gifted $10,000 from my grandmother. - funny how i diddnt need god for that??
i have a son
i have true friends (not a church "family" who abandon you if you leave church)
i am more intelligent as i read more than the bible
i have world and life experience

Now all of these in my opinion are major hurdles in life. they are all achieveable without god as it was when i left church that all this was achieveable.

while i was wasting all my spare money on tithe i was not able to do this.
God does not bless you for your tithe, which is the whole point of this.

Work hard and you will achieve anything you want.


now I've broken through the glass, im lacerated from my past, I climbed over my prison walls, the pain was delightful.

Offline gzusfreke

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Re: tithe is just manipulation....
« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2013, 07:07:17 PM »

ever since i left the church and stopped wasting my money i have,

Got married

and that proves what?  People outside any religion and within most religions get married all the time.

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Got a higher paying job

Again proving TIME + CHANCE + NOTHING = SOMETHING

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]Brought a house,

Not uncommon for atheists or theists in first-world countries, or at least the USA.

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i was gifted $10,000 from my grandmother. - funny how i diddnt need god for that??

No, just a grandmother with $10,000

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i have a son

great, but that's a product of sexual reproduction not limited to just theists.

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i have true friends (not a church "family" who abandon you if you leave church)

some of the truest friends I've ever had were never a part of my church. That's just the way life is for theists and non-theists a lot of the time.

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i am more intelligent as i read more than the bible

you sound like you believe theists only read the Bible.  In fact, many read everything but the Bible. Some even read "Harry Potter" and "Hunger Games" and believe it or not, many go on to public, secular colleges and have to read lots of books by atheists.

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i have world and life experience

poor theists trapped in their monasteries and nunneries.  They have no life experiences like getting married, going to college, holding down a job, parenting, caring for elderly parents, going half-way around the world on one-week, two-week, and longer mission trips to impoverished, third-world countries, or working in soup lines in their local cities.  you atheists have all the fun!

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Now all of these in my opinion are major hurdles in life. they are all achieveable without god as it was when i left church that all this was achieveable.

I don't know you and I don't know your life, so it is hard to conceive that some of these (getting married, having children, getting a promotion) are major hurdles (having a grandma with $10k is a major hurdle in my family) but they are major life events that most everyone in developed countries can experience - with or without a belief in a god.  You stereotype believers in living some monochromatic, monastic life of bread, water, silence, and meditation on the Bible.  Too bad you don't know any Christians who have "life abundantly", who enjoy the things you enjoy but do not see these as the end-goal of life.

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]while i was wasting all my spare money on tithe i was not able to do this.
God does not bless you for your tithe, which is the whole point of this.

Did you only tithe so that you would be blessed?  Was there an ulterior motive to your tithing?  It sounds like it, but who am I to judge?

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Work hard and you will achieve anything you want.

Really?  Anything?  I can have a big mansion and servants and stuff?  Can I work hard and grow wings with feathers and fly around like a bird?  Can I become President of the USA?  Can I cure cancer and AIDS?  Can I solve world hunger and world peace? Oh, the power of positive thinking!
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline G-Roll

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Re: tithe is just manipulation....
« Reply #13 on: December 26, 2013, 07:26:50 PM »
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Work hard and you will achieve anything you want.

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Really?  Anything?  I can have a big mansion and servants and stuff?  Can I work hard and grow wings with feathers and fly around like a bird?  Can I become President of the USA?  Can I cure cancer and AIDS?  Can I solve world hunger and world peace? Oh, the power of positive thinking!

Lol try praying for it instead and see what happens. Work hard for it or pray on it. See which one produces fruit first...

Offline gzusfreke

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Re: tithe is just manipulation....
« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2013, 07:55:10 PM »
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Work hard and you will achieve anything you want.

Quote
Really?  Anything?  I can have a big mansion and servants and stuff?  Can I work hard and grow wings with feathers and fly around like a bird?  Can I become President of the USA?  Can I cure cancer and AIDS?  Can I solve world hunger and world peace? Oh, the power of positive thinking!

Lol try praying for it instead and see what happens. Work hard for it or pray on it. See which one produces fruit first...

I think that it is a common misconception that some Christians have (especially those in the Creflo Dollar (what a name) - Kenneth Copeland - Joyce Meyer - Joel Osteen camp that all you have to do is "pray believing and you will receive!" and I think that many outside of Christendom see this and have the reactions expressed in this thread.

Christians are instructed to be good workers and pray for their bosses - not pray for raises.  They are told to be good spouses - not pray that their spouses be better to them.  Christians are told if they don't work, they don't get to eat.  They are told to be good citizens and pray for their governmental leaders to lead with wisdom.  There is always "work" that goes along with prayer. 

Even when it comes to sharing the Good News of Jesus Christ, it is not enough to pray for folks to receive it.  One must open up their mouth (or get on their keyboard in a hostile environment) and share the Good News!
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline G-Roll

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Re: tithe is just manipulation....
« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2013, 08:16:00 PM »
I think that it is a common misconception that some Christians have (especially those in the Creflo Dollar (what a name) - Kenneth Copeland - Joyce Meyer - Joel Osteen camp that all you have to do is "pray believing and you will receive!" and I think that many outside of Christendom see this and have the reactions expressed in this thread.
Matt
9 “Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!

21 Jesus replied, “Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done. 22 If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.”

Mark
22 “Have faith in God,” Jesus answered. 23 “Truly[f] I tell you, if anyone says to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and does not doubt in their heart but believes that what they say will happen, it will be done for them. 24 Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. 25 And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive them, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.”

John
13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

I can see where they get that idea.

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Even when it comes to sharing the Good News of Jesus Christ, it is not enough to pray for folks to receive it.  One must open up their mouth (or get on their keyboard in a hostile environment) and share the Good News!
This made me smile and chuckle a bit!



Offline gzusfreke

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Re: tithe is just manipulation....
« Reply #16 on: December 26, 2013, 08:44:25 PM »
I think that it is a common misconception that some Christians have (especially those in the Creflo Dollar (what a name) - Kenneth Copeland - Joyce Meyer - Joel Osteen camp that all you have to do is "pray believing and you will receive!" and I think that many outside of Christendom see this and have the reactions expressed in this thread.
Matt
9 “Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!

21 Jesus replied, “Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done. 22 If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.”

Mark
22 “Have faith in God,” Jesus answered. 23 “Truly[f] I tell you, if anyone says to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and does not doubt in their heart but believes that what they say will happen, it will be done for them. 24 Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. 25 And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive them, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.”

John
13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

I can see where they get that idea.

I used to believe in "blab it and grab it, name it and claim it" but the more I read the Bible and studied what it said about prayer, the more I realized that God was not talking about being my magic genie to fulfill all my wishes if I only asked Him to. Yes, we are to ask Him for our daily bread, but we are also to ask for His kingdom to come and for His will be done on earth as it is in heaven.  Our prayers should line up with asking for our needs to be met (and confessing our dependence on God to supply them) but also with advancing His rule in the lives of others.  (I'm leaving out some, I know)

Quote
Quote
Even when it comes to sharing the Good News of Jesus Christ, it is not enough to pray for folks to receive it.  One must open up their mouth (or get on their keyboard in a hostile environment) and share the Good News!
Quote
This made me smile and chuckle a bit!

I'm glad I brought you some merriment.

A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline G-Roll

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Re: tithe is just manipulation....
« Reply #17 on: December 26, 2013, 08:47:05 PM »
Quote
I used to believe in "blab it and grab it, name it and claim it" but the more I read the Bible and studied what it said about prayer, the more I realized that God was not talking about being my magic genie to fulfill all my wishes if I only asked Him to. Yes, we are to ask Him for our daily bread, but we are also to ask for His kingdom to come and for His will be done on earth as it is in heaven.  Our prayers should line up with asking for our needs to be met (and confessing our dependence on God to supply them) but also with advancing His rule in the lives of others.  (I'm leaving out some, I know)
I prefer your Christianity over the blab it and grab it... keep up the good work?

Offline gzusfreke

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Re: tithe is just manipulation....
« Reply #18 on: December 26, 2013, 08:54:54 PM »
Quote
I used to believe in "blab it and grab it, name it and claim it" but the more I read the Bible and studied what it said about prayer, the more I realized that God was not talking about being my magic genie to fulfill all my wishes if I only asked Him to. Yes, we are to ask Him for our daily bread, but we are also to ask for His kingdom to come and for His will be done on earth as it is in heaven.  Our prayers should line up with asking for our needs to be met (and confessing our dependence on God to supply them) but also with advancing His rule in the lives of others.  (I'm leaving out some, I know)
I prefer your Christianity over the blab it and grab it... keep up the good work?

Thanks G-Roll, it's been "grand" talking with you.
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline wolfunchained

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Re: tithe is just manipulation....
« Reply #19 on: December 26, 2013, 09:12:08 PM »
hey gzusfreke

my point on the list of things you picked apart was that i earned them all on my own merrit. i diddnt pray for any of it and I made it happen.

finding a better paying job to christians is a "blessing",  to me its just getting off my butt and looking to better my family's future.

buying a house and getting $10,000 from my grandmother at the precise timing i needed the money would be a massive miracle to any chirstian. especially if they had been praying for guidance from god and then..booom! all this extra money is surely a sign from god we should buy the house! nope, its just that ive been living with my grandmother for a whole year and she saw how hard me and my wife were saving and wanted to get us into a house sooner as she is a kind lady.

my wife and i have a miracle child. my wife cannot concieve naturally.
we have tried for years and even when we were church goers we were praying for a baby.
3 years after leaving the church we had fertillity treatment and Boom......thats science. not a blessing or an answer to prayer. just science and a few test tubes and petrie dishes....


i got a job that requires me to work on the sabbath. I had my membership discontinued as i set a bad example to the younger church members and all communication with me stopped from the church except 2 people! they are still 2 of my best friends.


growing up in a church that is rather strict does restrict you from learning alot. i feel more intelligent now than ever in my life because i have the courage to explore things i was told was TABOO and SINFUL and SECULAR and EVIL.
honestly, Seventh day adventists shelter thier children.
i wasnt ever allowed to go to the movies, or own a water gun to play with in summer or watch anything with a swear word in it or anything with guns in it.
I diddnt know the radio exsisted till i was 12.
i thought music was only the chirstian stuff my parents let me listen to and Scottish music was the only other thing allowed in the house as my dad plays the bagpipes.

You obviously diddnt belong to a church with such huge boundries that totally beleives in the power of prayer and blessings.
ITS OUT THERE

not every christian is exsposed to such Shelter and manipulation and tameing of the mind.

I am simply catching up on life.

as for your remarks about "you can do anything you want" like flying and curing aids....you know your clutching at straws and being immature.

if you have faith as small as a mustard seed you can move mountains.
GO ON, TRY IT

in summation, i feel more blessed in life since i stopped tithing through the brainwashing of my upbringing and left the seventh day adventist church.

Wolfie
now I've broken through the glass, im lacerated from my past, I climbed over my prison walls, the pain was delightful.

Offline gzusfreke

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Re: tithe is just manipulation....
« Reply #20 on: December 26, 2013, 09:22:45 PM »
hey gzusfreke

my point on the list of things you picked apart was that i earned them all on my own merrit. i diddnt pray for any of it and I made it happen.

finding a better paying job to christians is a "blessing",  to me its just getting off my butt and looking to better my family's future.

buying a house and getting $10,000 from my grandmother at the precise timing i needed the money would be a massive miracle to any chirstian. especially if they had been praying for guidance from god and then..booom! all this extra money is surely a sign from god we should buy the house! nope, its just that ive been living with my grandmother for a whole year and she saw how hard me and my wife were saving and wanted to get us into a house sooner as she is a kind lady.

my wife and i have a miracle child. my wife cannot concieve naturally.
we have tried for years and even when we were church goers we were praying for a baby.
3 years after leaving the church we had fertillity treatment and Boom......thats science. not a blessing or an answer to prayer. just science and a few test tubes and petrie dishes....


i got a job that requires me to work on the sabbath. I had my membership discontinued as i set a bad example to the younger church members and all communication with me stopped from the church except 2 people! they are still 2 of my best friends.


growing up in a church that is rather strict does restrict you from learning alot. i feel more intelligent now than ever in my life because i have the courage to explore things i was told was TABOO and SINFUL and SECULAR and EVIL.
honestly, Seventh day adventists shelter thier children.
i wasnt ever allowed to go to the movies, or own a water gun to play with in summer or watch anything with a swear word in it or anything with guns in it.
I diddnt know the radio exsisted till i was 12.
i thought music was only the chirstian stuff my parents let me listen to and Scottish music was the only other thing allowed in the house as my dad plays the bagpipes.

You obviously diddnt belong to a church with such huge boundries that totally beleives in the power of prayer and blessings.
ITS OUT THERE

not every christian is exsposed to such Shelter and manipulation and tameing of the mind.

I am simply catching up on life.

as for your remarks about "you can do anything you want" like flying and curing aids....you know your clutching at straws and being immature.

if you have faith as small as a mustard seed you can move mountains.
GO ON, TRY IT

in summation, i feel more blessed in life since i stopped tithing through the brainwashing of my upbringing and left the seventh day adventist church.

Wolfie

Why didn't you say you were 7DA?  That's explains everything.  God blessed you because you left, don't you get it? But also, congrats on pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps.

7DA is considered a cult by virtually all other denominations because of aberrant teachings, some of which you speak of.

7DA is not typical of mainstream (Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterian, Anglican, Lutheran) Christianity, so it's too bad that's the picture you were given of Christianity and its teachings.

That "pulling yourself up by your bootstraps" thing, don't be fooled into thinking that it will always work for you.  One day you'll grow old, your wife will find someone who has a richer grandmother, your boss will get fired and his replacement will fire you to bring in his own team, etc.
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline wolfunchained

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Re: tithe is just manipulation....
« Reply #21 on: December 26, 2013, 09:40:51 PM »
Yes 7da are as mental as it gets.

Ok so u dont know my wife and she would never do such a thing, and im protected by a workers union for the dairy industry in new zealand.

I believe in kharma. What goes around comes around.

Good stuff happens and bad stuff happens. You just have to work hard and earn your keep and respect from others

now I've broken through the glass, im lacerated from my past, I climbed over my prison walls, the pain was delightful.

Offline gzusfreke

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Re: tithe is just manipulation....
« Reply #22 on: December 26, 2013, 09:45:27 PM »
Yes 7da are as mental as it gets.

Ok so u dont know my wife and she would never do such a thing, and im protected by a workers union for the dairy industry in new zealand.

I believe in kharma. What goes around comes around.

Good stuff happens and bad stuff happens. You just have to work hard and earn your keep and respect from others

Congratulations on the marriage, the miracle child, and being happy in your career!  I sincerely wish you the best and I'm glad that you have a happy life free of the cult.  Few people these days have a good work ethic, so I commend you.

Peace and grace.
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline G-Roll

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Re: tithe is just manipulation....
« Reply #23 on: December 26, 2013, 10:01:00 PM »
Yes 7da are as mental as it gets.

Ok so u dont know my wife and she would never do such a thing, and im protected by a workers union for the dairy industry in new zealand.

I believe in kharma. What goes around comes around.

Good stuff happens and bad stuff happens. You just have to work hard and earn your keep and respect from others

Not to be a dick but what controls this karma? What is it that insures what goes around comes around? I've never heard an atheist seriously claim that they believe in karma.

Offline gzusfreke

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Re: tithe is just manipulation....
« Reply #24 on: December 26, 2013, 10:04:54 PM »
Yes 7da are as mental as it gets.

Ok so u dont know my wife and she would never do such a thing, and im protected by a workers union for the dairy industry in new zealand.

I believe in kharma. What goes around comes around.

Good stuff happens and bad stuff happens. You just have to work hard and earn your keep and respect from others


Not to be a dick but what controls this karma? What is it that insures what goes around comes around? I've never heard an atheist seriously claim that they believe in karma.


I was going to give you a + karma but I have to wait an hour since the last one.  Thanks for the honesty G.
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline wolfunchained

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Re: tithe is just manipulation....
« Reply #25 on: December 26, 2013, 10:58:23 PM »
Hahahaha nice work on the nit picking about kharma.

If you are a good kind helpful cheerful person then the majority of the time you will be treated in the same manner.

Likewise, if you are an arrogant selfish prick with no manners and always out to get what you can out of people then u will usually find confrontation comig your way and not alot of good.

I dont believe there is a mystical kharma god out there. I simply used kharma as a way to decribe how i live my life.   I prefer to be kind than to be an asshole.

I would prefer to help an old lady with her groceries than tell her to hurry up and get out of the way.


In the words of the great jim jefferies," the bible should be simplified down to one page and it should say, Try not to be a c*nt".
now I've broken through the glass, im lacerated from my past, I climbed over my prison walls, the pain was delightful.

Offline Mooby

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Re: tithe is just manipulation....
« Reply #26 on: December 27, 2013, 01:44:20 AM »
If you are going to tax anyone, it should be on "disposable income" only, not gross or net income.
Tithe is not a tax.  But yes, it would be nice if the government only taxed my disposable income.

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As an atheist, I have no objections to charity per se, although, in this day and age, charity should not be needed, as laws and the welfare state should cover the needs of the people and justice for all.
How's that working out at present?

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However, I prefer government taxes as they don't come with any dogma attached, neither do they perpetuate myths and you have one day every 4 or five years when you can vote.
Apples and oranges.



We still have this odd idea of money 'for god'. This god doesn't ever actually tame any of it - he, as defined hardly needs it.
Correct.  Money, like most things humans do, is for humans.  We give thanks for the gifts God has given us by returning some of it to assist in His ministry on Earth, through funding the Church so it can continue to minister to believers and through helping the less fortunate.

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I have never understood whay churches can't just plainly say that one needs to pay a membership subscription - golf clubs don't ask for money for god do they? So why should a church - a human insitution, albeit one devoted to worship of a diety, not do the same?
Because we believe God's message and the faith community should be accessible to anyone for free.  A subscription creates a financial barrier that is counterproductive to that belief.



another little point.

ever since i left the church and stopped wasting my money i have,

Got married
Got a higher paying job
Brought a house, i was gifted $10,000 from my grandmother. - funny how i diddnt need god for that??
i have a son
i have true friends (not a church "family" who abandon you if you leave church)
i am more intelligent as i read more than the bible
i have world and life experience

Now all of these in my opinion are major hurdles in life. they are all achieveable without god as it was when i left church that all this was achieveable.

while i was wasting all my spare money on tithe i was not able to do this.
All achievable without God, eh?  So if I were to become an atheist tomorrow, my grandmother would suddenly have $10,000 to give me?  If I were to convince all her grandchildren to become atheists, would she suddenly have $160,000 to spread out amongst us?

Or maybe you achieved it by living with her for a year and her seeing how hard you and your wife worked.  At $10,000 per year, that means my family has achieved about $240,000 or so from her.  On her current Social Security benefits, about how long do you think we will have to wait to achieve this monetary bonus from her?

I too:
- Am engaged
- Recently got a higher paying job
- Will likely be buying a house in the next couple years
- Plan to have kids
- Have true friends
- Am generally considered of above average intelligence
- Have world and life experience

And not for a second do I try to delude myself into thinking I did any of that on my own.  You think you earned those all on your "own merit?"

Yes, you got your better paying job by getting off your butt and looking.  And this did not happen in a vacuum.  You walked into that new job with an education paid for by other people, skills that you learned due to that education, and experience that you gained from other jobs using your education and skills.  And of course, your education was dependent on where you lived and what schools you had access to growing up.  And you had nice clothes to wear to the interview and were able to take a shower so you wouldn't smell and could drive yourself over there so you weren't late because you already had privilege before you ever stepped in the door of your new job.

Flip a coin.  If it's tails, your starting difficulty is no education with a salary of less than $2.50 per day.

What percent of hard-working people out there can afford to buy a new house and get a convenient $10,000 bonus from a relative at the same time?  The house that is, by the way, almost certainly being subsidized by your government in some fashion.  What percent of the roughly 100 billion people in the planet's history had any sort of access at all to artificial reproduction, let alone the resources to pay for it?

I'm glad that you were able to break free of your rough childhood hardships such as not seeing enough movies or not enjoying bagpipe music.  If your biggest issue with your childhood is that you were overly sheltered by your parents, you're still coming out ahead of 50% of childhoods spent in poverty, 33% of children with inadequate housing, or the 20% of children without water.  You didn't have to grow up worrying whether your house would be bombed or your parents would be shot or whether you'd eat the next day or whether your next illness would kill you.  You didn't have to worry about spending your childhood as a soldier.  And I'm betting your family was at least somewhat supportive in helping you transition from childhood into adulthood.

In short, you and I (and most other members of this forum) are among the most privileged people in the history of the world.  The idea that we all earned our own way to the top is downright insane. 

Just about everything I have is a blessing.  I would not be where I am without so many other factors in my life, and I don't deserve any of it.  I have so much more than nearly everyone who ever lived, despite many of them working much harder than me with a lot fewer resources and overcoming much more adversity to a degree that I can't even imagine.  So no, I'm not offended with my Church suggests that I give a small percentage of that back, if for no other reason than for me to recognize that I was never entitled to it in the first place.

Quote
Work hard and you will achieve anything you want.
So you don't believe in God, who may or may not exist, but you believe in the American Dream, which is easily debunked with even a casual glance at social mobility trends over the past several decades?
"I'm doing science and I'm still alive."--J.C.

Offline magicmiles

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Re: tithe is just manipulation....
« Reply #27 on: December 27, 2013, 02:16:28 AM »
Mooby: wolf is from New Zealand. FYI.

Outstanding post.

Go on up you baldhead.

Offline Mooby

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Re: tithe is just manipulation....
« Reply #28 on: December 27, 2013, 02:48:47 AM »
I know, but I believe the "American Dream" ideology is a standardized term and it seemed to apply here.

Like America, NZ's social mobility has been decreasing over the past several decades.
http://norightturn.blogspot.com/2010/05/inequality-and-social-mobility.html
Social_class_in_New_Zealand#ConsequencesWiki
"I'm doing science and I'm still alive."--J.C.