Author Topic: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)  (Read 13303 times)

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Offline median

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #261 on: January 01, 2014, 04:55:47 AM »

How can He allow His believers to be tempted and go through trials and tribulation? 

Because I believe the rest of the story:

Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing. (James 1:2-4, ESV)

Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him. Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. (James 1:12-14, ESV)

Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us. (Romans 4:1-5, ESV)

I'll stop there.  It's a perspective/worldview issue that shows how diverse our opinions are.

I didn't ask you if "he allows his believers to be tempted". I asked you if you would ever allow your children to devoured by a lion and whether or not that would be called moral. Please go back and read my questions here because you didn't answer them. Were you avoiding them? The passages you are citing here have nothing to do with the subject. Allowing one or more of your children to be devoured by a lion has nothing to do with "trials" and "testing". This is just more of your starting with a conclusion (aka that the bible is the inspired 'inerrant word of God' and trying to work backwards).



"If your moral reasoning has been corrupted by "sin" then you have no reliable means for making that determination." That actually works both ways.

But, you do make a good point.  How can I, with a reasoning flawed by sin, make the determination that God is good?  It is because of my sin that I can recognize His goodness. 

You've just contradicted yourself. You've said I have a "good point" (and I take that to mean you agree that it is sound) but then attempt to disagree with my good point. Are you practicing cognitive dissonance? If your moral reasoning has been damaged by this alleged thing called "sin" then you have no reliable method for determining that this deity is moral/good. Merely CLAIMING (ad hoc) that it "works both ways" doesn't mean that it does. Notice that you just made a claim but didn't attempt to back it up with anything?

I'm wondering how much critical thinking you actually practiced during that time in which you claim you were a non-believer.

No, Christians don't give thanks to God that evil happens, we give thanks to God that one day He will exact justice for all evil done.  We thank God that ultimately He is in control, even if we can't quite make sense of it.

So it is true then that both you and I are morally superior to your alleged 'God'? This alleged deity stands back and watches while a child is mercilessly raped and murdered, for example, but we would step in immediately and stop it (doing something that your invisible magic friend will not do). In your theology a child being raped is within "God's divine and perfect plan", right? So then you must think there is some context by which it is moral for your God to do nothing at the moment when moral atrocities are taking place but at the same time think it moral for you or someone else to step in and stop it. And you cannot see the double standard here?

It seems that under your theology (aka - your theological pre-commitment) no argument or rational discourse could persuade you that your god conception is false. Why then should anyone engage you in discourse with you when you are participating in this kind of closed-mindedness? Do you even care whether or not your beliefs are true?

Ok, sorry for the poor analogy.  I guess parents don't put their children on the football field to get their necks broke or get fatal heatstroke either?

Are you actually trying to compare your "all-knowing" god concept with a non-all-knowing human being? If parents had a precise knowledge that a specific game or martial arts tournament was going to KILL their child, do you think they would be moral in deliberately putting them in there anyway? WOW. The lengths it seems you will go to save your assumed theology. How is it loving in any way shape or form for your alleged God to allow a lion in with his alleged 'children' to devour them?

Finally, are you willing to admit that because your moral reasoning has been impaired due to "sin" (according to your theology) that you then have no basis for determining that this invisible thing you claim to worship is actually good? Given that this thing you say you believe in can violate it's own commands, how can you make the judgment that it is moral and/or good? I am interested to see how you can have a coherent and/or meaningful definition of what is moral/good when you can have this kind of double standard.
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Offline median

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #262 on: January 01, 2014, 05:06:48 AM »

As I have said several times, I suffered from a case of "cultural Christianity from the time I was 12 until I was 38.  Then I became an unbeliever for nearly 5 years.  I believed that the Bible was nothing but ancient myths.  Then I believed for a year that there was a Creator, but He was the Deist Creator and that had no effect on my life. Nor did this Deist view validate the Bible in any way, as I did not associate the Creator with Bible-god. My conversion was at a time when I could not have been more inclined NOT to believe the Bible.

I do not wish to stray too far off the topic of this OP but for clarity I will say this; if you were an unbeliever I would like to explore that more and what mental state you were under when this conversion occurred (but not in this thread - perhaps we can start another one).


No, I actually struggled with the concept of the Trinity after God saved me in 1998.  Just because I am reconciled with the concept now does not mean I have always been. 

You and a few others in the Forum are guilty of engaging in some kind of self-projection, perhaps, in attributing to me things that aren't true.  You seem to know my entire life and how I have always thought, and what internal and external influences have caused me to be made in the image that you have made me in.  I don't approach you guys this way; I would appreciate the same treatment.

I apologize if I sound like I'm projecting. However, I'm not intending to. It's just that we see these arguments on this forum over and over and over. It gets old, and being that I was a believer (making the same types of arguments you are attempting to make here) I often find it reasonable to hold specific tentative beliefs about a believers theological positions (as my intuitions about them are correct more often than not).

And onward we shall go...
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Offline gzusfreke

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #263 on: January 01, 2014, 11:18:48 AM »
I love you Azdgari ...

No, you are lying through your teeth - though avoiding the sin of honesty, at least.

You cannot both love me and feel that I deserve to be burned for eternity.  These are mutually exclusive feelings.  You're lying about one of them.  Pick.

Having a humanitarian love for someone does not exclude recognizing that person's faults or guilt.  Take my brother-in-law (please take him!  ta-doosh ;D) for example.  I love him as a person, but because of his drug-induced beating of his step-son, he deserves conviction, jail time, and psychiatric treatment.
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Offline gzusfreke

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #264 on: January 01, 2014, 11:23:57 AM »

How can He allow His believers to be tempted and go through trials and tribulation? 

Because I believe the rest of the story:

Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing. (James 1:2-4, ESV)

Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him. Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. (James 1:12-14, ESV)

Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us. (Romans 4:1-5, ESV)

I'll stop there.  It's a perspective/worldview issue that shows how diverse our opinions are.

I didn't ask you if "he allows his believers to be tempted". I asked you if you would ever allow your children to devoured by a lion and whether or not that would be called moral. Please go back and read my questions here because you didn't answer them. Were you avoiding them? The passages you are citing here have nothing to do with the subject. Allowing one or more of your children to be devoured by a lion has nothing to do with "trials" and "testing". This is just more of your starting with a conclusion (aka that the bible is the inspired 'inerrant word of God' and trying to work backwards).



"If your moral reasoning has been corrupted by "sin" then you have no reliable means for making that determination." That actually works both ways.

But, you do make a good point.  How can I, with a reasoning flawed by sin, make the determination that God is good?  It is because of my sin that I can recognize His goodness. 

You've just contradicted yourself. You've said I have a "good point" (and I take that to mean you agree that it is sound) but then attempt to disagree with my good point. Are you practicing cognitive dissonance? If your moral reasoning has been damaged by this alleged thing called "sin" then you have no reliable method for determining that this deity is moral/good. Merely CLAIMING (ad hoc) that it "works both ways" doesn't mean that it does. Notice that you just made a claim but didn't attempt to back it up with anything?

I'm wondering how much critical thinking you actually practiced during that time in which you claim you were a non-believer.

No, Christians don't give thanks to God that evil happens, we give thanks to God that one day He will exact justice for all evil done.  We thank God that ultimately He is in control, even if we can't quite make sense of it.

So it is true then that both you and I are morally superior to your alleged 'God'? This alleged deity stands back and watches while a child is mercilessly raped and murdered, for example, but we would step in immediately and stop it (doing something that your invisible magic friend will not do). In your theology a child being raped is within "God's divine and perfect plan", right? So then you must think there is some context by which it is moral for your God to do nothing at the moment when moral atrocities are taking place but at the same time think it moral for you or someone else to step in and stop it. And you cannot see the double standard here?

It seems that under your theology (aka - your theological pre-commitment) no argument or rational discourse could persuade you that your god conception is false. Why then should anyone engage you in discourse with you when you are participating in this kind of closed-mindedness? Do you even care whether or not your beliefs are true?

Ok, sorry for the poor analogy.  I guess parents don't put their children on the football field to get their necks broke or get fatal heatstroke either?

Are you actually trying to compare your "all-knowing" god concept with a non-all-knowing human being? If parents had a precise knowledge that a specific game or martial arts tournament was going to KILL their child, do you think they would be moral in deliberately putting them in there anyway? WOW. The lengths it seems you will go to save your assumed theology. How is it loving in any way shape or form for your alleged God to allow a lion in with his alleged 'children' to devour them?

Finally, are you willing to admit that because your moral reasoning has been impaired due to "sin" (according to your theology) that you then have no basis for determining that this invisible thing you claim to worship is actually good? Given that this thing you say you believe in can violate it's own commands, how can you make the judgment that it is moral and/or good? I am interested to see how you can have a coherent and/or meaningful definition of what is moral/good when you can have this kind of double standard.

As I said, our world views are so different, that I don't believe you and I can really have a meaning understanding of the other.  In your post above, I perceive much of what you say as your either not understanding much of what I said or you are twisting what I said because of your presuppositions.
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #265 on: January 01, 2014, 01:18:53 PM »
Having a humanitarian love for someone does not exclude recognizing that person's faults or guilt.  Take my brother-in-law (please take him!  ta-doosh ;D) for example.  I love him as a person, but because of his drug-induced beating of his step-son, he deserves conviction, jail time, and psychiatric treatment.

The treatment would be for his own good.  Torture is never for someone's own good.  Eternal torture cannot be justified by love, only by hatred.  You are hateful.
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Offline gzusfreke

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #266 on: January 01, 2014, 02:18:08 PM »
Having a humanitarian love for someone does not exclude recognizing that person's faults or guilt.  Take my brother-in-law (please take him!  ta-doosh ;D) for example.  I love him as a person, but because of his drug-induced beating of his step-son, he deserves conviction, jail time, and psychiatric treatment.

The treatment would be for his own good.  Torture is never for someone's own good.  Eternal torture cannot be justified by love, only by hatred.  You are hateful.

In the theistic worldview, you were made for God's purposes, not the other way.  He has offered you undeserved mercy and forgiveness. There will be a day when His long-suffering and lovingkindness will be no longer offered to you.  Nothing unjust or hateful about that.
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #267 on: January 01, 2014, 02:26:23 PM »
I am not talking about the feelings of "God".  I am talking about your feelings.  About how you feel that I and others, for disagreeing with you, deserve to be tortured in the most horrible way imaginable for all of eternity.

That you wish to shift responsibility for this feeling away from yourself is understandable.  But have some balls.
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Offline median

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #268 on: January 01, 2014, 03:47:43 PM »

As I said, our world views are so different, that I don't believe you and I can really have a meaning understanding of the other.  In your post above, I perceive much of what you say as your either not understanding much of what I said or you are twisting what I said because of your presuppositions.

If you actually care about truth and/or having a meaningful discussion about differences in worldview then why not actually clarify your beliefs better and we can discuss them? Please demonstrate where I have misrepresented your position (if that is what you do think) and then perhaps clarify where you disagree and why. Of course we have different views. That is why you are on this website debating with us, right? So your statement is pointless and redundant. We already know there are disagreements. Let's discuss where those disagreements lie and the details therein. Is that not your goal here or are you just here to preach?
« Last Edit: January 01, 2014, 03:52:46 PM by median »
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Offline median

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #269 on: January 01, 2014, 03:51:55 PM »
Having a humanitarian love for someone does not exclude recognizing that person's faults or guilt.  Take my brother-in-law (please take him!  ta-doosh ;D ) for example.  I love him as a person, but because of his drug-induced beating of his step-son, he deserves conviction, jail time, and psychiatric treatment.

The treatment would be for his own good.  Torture is never for someone's own good.  Eternal torture cannot be justified by love, only by hatred.  You are hateful.

In the theistic worldview, you were made for God's purposes, not the other way.  He has offered you undeserved mercy and forgiveness. There will be a day when His long-suffering and lovingkindness will be no longer offered to you.  Nothing unjust or hateful about that.


Ah, perhaps I am right in my last post, b/c this is just preaching. I must ask again, do you actually care whether or not your beliefs are true or are you just looking to make yourself comfortable with your presuppositions?
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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #270 on: January 01, 2014, 05:47:07 PM »
Eternity is a hell of a long time (pun intended) to be punished by a god with poor communication skills and patently ridiculous hangups, like that faith thing.

If you are a Christian who thinks like that, I would rather spend an eternity in said hell than spend an hour with you in heaven. Because I'm not the monster in this scenario.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #271 on: January 02, 2014, 04:40:29 AM »
But what would be useful, I think (that would address what MadBunny is asking) is to at least begin a definitive list of what actually pleases/displease Yahweh.  Without such a list, as MadBunny says, it can become whatever you want it to be at any particular time.

How about Augustine's list:  "Love God, and do what you please."?

And no, it cannot become "whatever you want it to be at any particular time."  Rebellion against God in any form at any time in history never pleases God.  Self-exaltaion, selfishness, pride, arrogance, etc. never please God at any time.  Use your common sense please.

Unfortunately, I can't - or, at least, couldn't until that point, because you hadn't defined what actually pleased or displeased your god.  Now, at least, I have a partial list - but which still doesn't really help that much.  Take for example "pride".  I painted a model figure the other day.  It turned out well, and I felt proud of what I had done.  Now was that a sin, or was it not?  It feels trivial, but I don't know - possibly even that little bt of pride was a deep offence to god.

"Common sense", sadly, is of little use in this situation.  I could use my common sense to work out what most humans might think about my little figure, but god?  No, of course not.  He moves in myserious ways, he is beyond our understaning, he is a an ineffable secret mystery.....so no, of course my common sense cannot answer these questions.  You said it yourself:

God is so vastly transcendent that the things I don't understand are just that, things I don't understand, but that God has His reasons and a higher good that He does not reveal.

I - humanity - needs that definitive list, needs it spelled out in excruciating details where the borderlines are.  I repeat my point - if god wants us to do the right thing, he needs us to be a heck of a lot clearer and more specific as to what the "right thing" actually is, if the final judgement is to be made on what we have DONE, as opposed to what our intentions were.

For example:
I honestly believe that god wants me to kick puppies.  Doesn't matter how I got to that point, that is what I honestly and sincerely believe.  Please don't get hung up on the specifics of the act - the point is that there is a certain behaviour that I am convinced god wants, which (in reality) god hates.
I die, and face judgement.
Am I judged on what I DID, despite having the most sincere belief I was doing the right thing?
Or am I judged on my MOTIVES - that I tried my hardest throughout my life to do the things I truly believed were right?

If the former, then I maintain that a truly GOOD god would indeed be minutely specific and ridiculously clear about what he wants me to do - common sense would be irrelevant.
If the latter, then that seems like god would be good - but would mean that the sincere believers of Westboro would enter heaven along with the devout Hindus - and yes, even the fervent atheists who tried all through their lives to live up to what they believe was the right thing to do.

Can you see the quandry I am in here?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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Offline Boots

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #272 on: January 02, 2014, 09:31:05 AM »
In the theistic worldview, you were made for God's purposes, not the other way.  He has offered you undeserved mercy and forgiveness. There will be a day when His long-suffering and lovingkindness will be no longer offered to you.  Nothing unjust or hateful about that.

So, gawd is offering undeserved mercy and forgiveness for a design flaw that he put in us.  But that mercy and forgiveness for his design flaw has an expiration date--and the unimaginably horrible punishment for NOT taking him up on it does not.

Nope, nothing unjust or hateful at all.
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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #273 on: January 02, 2014, 10:23:15 AM »
In the theistic worldview, you were made for God's purposes, not the other way.  He has offered you undeserved mercy and forgiveness. There will be a day when His  and lovingkindness will be no longer offered to you.  Nothing unjust or hateful about that.

So, gawd is offering undeserved mercy and forgiveness for a design flaw that he put in us.  But that mercy and forgiveness for his design flaw has an expiration date--and the unimaginably horrible punishment for NOT taking him up on it does not.

Nope, nothing unjust or hateful at all.

Read in another voice, that of someone standing on the other side, it sounds like a conversation of the form:

Look at all the things I do for you. I'm loving, I'm kind, I take care of you.

You don't deserve what I do for you, someone else wouldn't do this for you, but I'm always there to take care of you.

You're useless, nothing you do is right, it's always wrong. I shouldn't even put up with you but I do it because I love you.

You couldn't manage without me and, if you don't take care of me in the way I ask, I'll leave you and you'll be nothing. All alone and without me. Just like you deserve.


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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #274 on: January 02, 2014, 01:50:03 PM »
I love you Azdgari ...

No, you are lying through your teeth - though avoiding the sin of honesty, at least.

You cannot both love me and feel that I deserve to be burned for eternity.  These are mutually exclusive feelings.  You're lying about one of them.  Pick.

Nah, he'd rather continue lying and dodging. CF, his reply to you: because everyone knows temporary jail is the equivalent of eternal torture  &)
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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Offline median

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #275 on: January 02, 2014, 02:06:58 PM »

This is one area that is difficult to proceed in because of the vast difference and distance between our world views.  :(

We both have presuppositions.  You presuppose that you can pass moral judgment on God.  I presuppose that God is so vastly transcendent that the things I don't understand are just that, things I don't understand, but that God has His reasons and a higher good that He does not reveal.

Peace and grace.

NOPE. Wrong again sir. YOU presuppose your theology b/c that is the only way you can continue believing this nonsense. We can certainly get into presuppositional apologetics if you want to. I was a presuppositional Christian apologist for nearly 10 years. I studied under Dr. Greg L. Bahnsen and know all of those arguments quite well b/c I made them myself (nearly every day) when I did what you are doing now online. But you know what? I changed my mind when I discovered that those arguments cannot be rationally justified. Unlike you, I put truth above dogma and pre-commitment (which is actually what you have b/c you didn't just 'suppose' your theology, tentatively, you fixed yourself to it). That is what religious superstition requires.

Now, I have not 'presupposed' that I can make moral judgments about your alleged invisible 'God' thing (nor do I think any other non-believer here has). I simply DO, and CAN make those moral judgements b/c, as I said before, morality is about the well being of conscious creatures and the minimization of unnecessary harm (and I have challenged you to show otherwise). It's funny though that you readily admit your position here:

Quote
I presuppose that God is so vastly transcendent that the things I don't understand are just that, things I don't understand, but that God has His reasons and a higher good that He does not reveal.

WOW. If you can't understand something, why do you keep pretending to (acting like you know this invisible alleged 'Yahweh' thing is moral when you don't know that)? So you have made a PRE-COMMITMENT to your theology, when only a few posts ago you told a story that would have us believe that this was NOT the case and that you were somehow convinced (by evidence or argument) that your particular version of Christianity was the way to go (aka - not presuppositional), after being 'the furthest thing from a believer' [to paraphrase you]. So which was it? Did you start with your conclusion (making a "presupposition") or were you convinced of it by some means of evidence? It sounds like you can't keep your stories straight (which btw is evidence of delusion and/or self-deception).

FYI, there is no such thing as an "I don't know" worldview. So please stop attempting to misrepresent the view of those who do not share your gullibility. Atheism is simply the opposite of theism (the belief in a god). That is all that is required. It says absolutely NOTHING about any other subject of philosophy or science. If you care anything about truth you will represent opposing positions properly. That is called being intellectually honest. You owe yourself at least that much. Thank you.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2014, 02:09:07 PM by median »
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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #276 on: January 02, 2014, 02:12:02 PM »
Having a humanitarian love for someone does not exclude recognizing that person's faults or guilt.  Take my brother-in-law (please take him!  ta-doosh ;D) for example.  I love him as a person, but because of his drug-induced beating of his step-son, he deserves conviction, jail time, and psychiatric treatment.
Except this is not relevant to your god, because he is not a human and is therefore not capable of humanitarian love.  No matter how you look at it, your god is infinitely superior to any human, and therefore cannot possibly love any human in any meaningful sense.  It would be like you saying that you love every cell in your body, or every molecule of food that you digest, in an intensely personal way - and that's simply not possible.

No, in order for humanitarian love to exist, you have to view someone as a person, not simply an object, so that you care about their welfare.  So you might feel that it's best for your brother's welfare that he gets psychiatric treatment, but that wouldn't extend to torturing him.  And your god simply doesn't care.  Your god only cares about whether people worship him, not about what's best for them.

By being willing to accept that the fate your god decrees for those who don't believe in him is just, you are contradicting any claim of humanitarian love for them.  You're essentially saying that you don't care that this fate is completely unconcerned with their actual welfare.  Instead, you are acquiescing to your god's decree and trying to intimidate other people into acquiescing to it as well.  Like it or not, having humanitarian love for someone means that you're willing to stand against people who don't have their interests at heart, and you've proven that you aren't, at least when it comes to your god's desires.

Offline Truth OT

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #277 on: January 08, 2014, 05:45:11 PM »
Having a humanitarian love for someone does not exclude recognizing that person's faults or guilt.  Take my brother-in-law (please take him!  ta-doosh ;D) for example.  I love him as a person, but because of his drug-induced beating of his step-son, he deserves conviction, jail time, and psychiatric treatment.

The treatment would be for his own good.  Torture is never for someone's own good.  Eternal torture cannot be justified by love, only by hatred.  You are hateful.

In the theistic worldview, you were made for God's purposes, not the other way.  He has offered you undeserved mercy and forgiveness. There will be a day when His long-suffering and lovingkindness will be no longer offered to you.  Nothing unjust or hateful about that.

This is the worldview that says God created me to be born and "insouled" sometime at or after conception only to die within a maximum of a little over a century and to then have my soul live on in a mysterious heavenly paradise or tortured for all eternity in a fiery hellish lake of torment. My eternal destiny, which in this worldview is really all that truly matters to me as the living person, is determined based on how well I live my short adult life attempting to please the god that created me. The very god who's "word" declares that few will find heaven and many will take the broad road to destuction, who is claimed to not be a respector of persons even though he has placed the majority of people that ever lived into regions and traditions that have not allowed for those folks to know or fulfill god's requirements, and yet he claims they are without excuse; doesn't sound fair or moral at all.

Under this worldview life is really a means God uses to set most people up for failure, and that failure he has determined is deserving of eternal conscious torment. Being that we are "born in sin and conceived in iniquity", have only recently developed mass communication ability, have just recently become literate as a general populous, massive human failure was and is eminent! In spite of all of that you have the gall to claim that there's nothing hateful about that. Is it that the word hateful bothers you? Would words like sadistic, insideous, or diabolical be more apt descriptions!?!?

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #278 on: January 09, 2014, 05:51:56 PM »
I am saddened that any would rebel against God and choose eternal torment.

Don't be sad. Even within the context of the Bible, no one CHOOSES eternal torment. God is the one that makes the rules and sends them to eternal torment, therefore, God is the one that is choosing.

Offline johnrain

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #279 on: January 24, 2014, 06:40:12 AM »
It is hard to fathom why an Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent deity would create us and have us PREDESTINED for eternal life or death.

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #280 on: January 24, 2014, 11:59:20 AM »
It is hard to fathom why an Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent deity would create us and have us PREDESTINED for eternal life or death.

How about "because he's a bitchy bronze-age dictator?"
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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #281 on: January 26, 2014, 04:40:38 PM »
So you're saying that humans can't know right from wrong.

No, that's not what I said,

That is totally what you said.  If humans aren't able to make a moral judgment about a situation because our moral ideas might be inferior to those of a god, then that applies to all contexts - whether or not the god is the subject being judged.  If you didn't mean to state that humans have no grounds to make any moral judgments, then you shouldn't have said what you did.

but since you brought it up, on what basis do humans decide what is right and what is wrong?

That would vary from human to human.

Based on your logic, you are saying that humans aren't able to make a moral judgment because since the ability would "vary from human to human," then some would make moral judgments inferior to other humans.

But humans do make moral judgments, and yes some make better moral judgments than others, but a human is in no more position to make a case for being morally superior to God than my 2-year old 3/4 Chihuahua/ 1/4 Dachshund is capable of being morally superior to me.

Man I got to say something.  You're right we are not superior to God IMO either.  What I do believe is if humans think it's wrong then so must God.  I think religion is wrong.

I think discrimination is wrong.  I think judging others is wrong.  I think you should be careful what you say about God.  The list goes on and on.

See my point is you take the very best of us multiply that times a lot and you have God, IMO.

As far as free will goes.  God didn't take that little girl's free will away the killer did.  That's why we lock them up.  Some call it "playing God" killing someone that is.  It's the farthest thing from being God, IMO. 

This argument insinuates humans should not have been created, by any means.  If God does not exist because of pain and suffering, the atheist POV, then nature is to blame for pain and suffering.  Should I hate nature or just try to make the best out of what I got?

It's a grain of salt...


JB
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine.html#XXwlhVIMq06zWg2d.99

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #282 on: January 26, 2014, 04:47:43 PM »
I think judging others is wrong.

You don't see the problem here?
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Offline MadBunny

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #283 on: January 27, 2014, 01:33:29 AM »
It is hard to fathom why an Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent deity would create us and have us PREDESTINED for eternal life or death.

Seems like an unhealthy relationship to me.


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