Author Topic: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)  (Read 11332 times)

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Offline gzusfreke

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #174 on: December 27, 2013, 10:38:15 PM »
Gzusfreke, where are you saying that this god is?  Once you state where it's supposed to be, then we can try to disprove it.  Until then, you've not placed the idea within reality.

In the supernatural realm, yet within each believer simultaneously.  Jesus, in human body, is at the anthropomorphic "right hand of the Father," yet the Spirit of Christ dwells within us (believers).

A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Online Azdgari

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #175 on: December 27, 2013, 10:57:32 PM »
Where is this supernatural realm?  How does it interact with the natural realm?  If one is to find this god, or not find it, then its context must be stated.  For example, "the baseball exists in my bedroom".

To state "God exists" on its own is meaningless.  So, without hand-waving, point it out already.
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #176 on: December 27, 2013, 11:29:21 PM »

No, you misunderstand.  How does that process work?

Must be my meds.  Can you elaborate please, because I sincerely would like to understand and give you a good reply that expresses my worldview on whatever it is that you are asking me.


So you do take meds for some mental disorder?
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Offline MadBunny

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #177 on: December 27, 2013, 11:46:25 PM »
Gzusfreke, where are you saying that this god is?  Once you state where it's supposed to be, then we can try to disprove it.  Until then, you've not placed the idea within reality.

In the supernatural realm, yet within each believer simultaneously.  Jesus, in human body, is at the anthropomorphic "right hand of the Father," yet the Spirit of Christ dwells within us (believers).

Can you differentiate between what you mean by 'natural' and 'supernatural' realm?
Currently they differ in that one is fictional and the other is not.

Give a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a night.  Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #178 on: December 28, 2013, 12:15:03 AM »

For the record, is it correct to conclude you are defining religion as " a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe"?  If not, what definition of religion do you use?


I only copied that definition, I didn't author it, thus the link to give credit to where credit is due.

My thoughts on religion:

-Religion is man's attempt to either reach God, or to be God.
-Religion is the set of beliefs that someone holds that rule his thoughts, motivations, and actions towards others.
-While "Christianity" as most people see it could be classified as a "religion," following Jesus as His disciple is just a new way of walking through life.

If I am understanding you correctly, the definition of religion that you didn't author (a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe) applies to atheists. 

For Non-Christian theists the following definitions of religion apply:

-Religion is man's attempt to either reach God, or to be God.
-Religion is the set of beliefs that someone holds that rule his thoughts, motivations, and actions towards others.

For Christian Theists the following definition of religion applies:
-While "Christianity" as most people see it could be classified as a "religion," following Jesus as His disciple is just a new way of walking through life.

Correct?  If the above understanding of definitions of religion applied to atheists, non-Christian theists and Christian theists is incorrect, what is the correct understanding? 

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #179 on: December 28, 2013, 03:20:03 AM »
A report has been filed, so I am investigating.

Hatter, please moderate your language.

Gzusfreke, if you look at Hatter's response to you, you will see he says that while he believes you to be wrong, he will alter his beliefs if he is shown to be wrong.  You selectively took part of his response which effectively 180d what he was actually saying.  I would like to hear your comments on this please.


As written
I'll try to be serious about this, because you guys appear to really want an answer, almost as if you really want someone to prove Christianity true.

Honestly we think you are wrong. Quite wrong. However we, or I at least, hold that factuality trumps previously held notions and desires.  I don't LIKE being proven wrong, however the temporary embarrassment is trivial to actually being wrong.


As quoted
Honestly we think you are wrong. Quite wrong..

And you have an "open" mind that is made up before I even began to answer your question, so why are we wasting each other's time?
« Last Edit: December 28, 2013, 03:21:50 AM by Anfauglir »
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #180 on: December 28, 2013, 06:18:03 AM »
You are saying there is a god.  Prove it.

Theists were here first, so the burden of proof is on you late-comers.

Appeal to antiquity, your argument is invalid.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #181 on: December 28, 2013, 07:01:22 AM »
I apologise for quoting at length:
You are being asked to back up your assertations the Christianity is true and other religions are not. To do otherwise is dodging.

So you are asserting that other religions are not true as if that is fact, but you are wanting me to provide the facts of why that is so?
No. That is not what Hatter is asking, and unfortunately, I think you are aware of that. Hatter's question, basically put (and he will correct me if I am wrong) is what is it about other religions that makes them wrong, but makes yours right? - What differentiates the others?

It would be a favour to the forum if you would answer this question and it would also set aside those charges of "dodging".

Thanks

GB Mod


you are right and I have been playing the troll and having fun at your expense.  doggone that ole sin nature!

I'll try to be serious about this, because you guys appear to really want an answer, almost as if you really want someone to prove Christianity true.

As I have stated before, I consider this a monumental task and I will attempt making some coherent, rational, thoughtful response, but I am sadly out of my league, so if I draw on the words of others, it is because I believe that they can speak to this more clearly or more concisely than I.

Do you consider atheism a "religion"?  While not an organized religion with a central hub of authority, I believe that it takes "faith" to be an atheist, so can I start with the apology on why Christianity is true and atheism is false?

By the way, you guys have been really good sports while I was toying with you.  No hard feelings?

You have now dodged again. You have answered Hatter's supplementary question without addressing his first, other than by saying the question is not easily answered.

You have used the tactic of diversion. This has not gone unnoticed.

You have also rephrased the question, and have attempted to make Hatter appear unreasonable:

Quote
I'll try to be serious about this, because you guys appear to really want an answer, almost as if you really want someone to prove Christianity true.

You are ingenuously faking surprise. You know this is a misrepresentation of the question. I am not here to play your game.

This is his first question. Please answer it.


No. That is not what Hatter is asking, and unfortunately, I think you are aware of that. Hatter's question, basically put (and he will correct me if I am wrong) is "what is it about other religions that makes them wrong, but makes yours right?" - What differentiates the others?

Thanks

GB Mod

« Last Edit: December 28, 2013, 07:06:28 AM by Graybeard »
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #182 on: December 28, 2013, 11:18:58 AM »
Theists were here first, so the burden of proof is on you late-comers.

The burden of proof is not born by whoever made a claim first.  The burden of proof is born by whichever party is making a claim that extends ontology.  The theist is the one making such a claim; therefore, the theist bears the burden of proof.  Atheists do not make a claim that extends ontology.  (Actually, most atheists don't make a claim at all, but that's a separate discussion.)
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Offline shnozzola

Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #183 on: December 28, 2013, 11:34:39 AM »
Theists were here first, so the burden of proof is on you late-comers.

Many people were satisfied that rats spontaneously generated from dirt and old rags in a dark corner.  We are the type that look for the truth - please don't hurt us, OK?
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Offline Aaron123

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #184 on: December 28, 2013, 12:03:53 PM »
You are saying there is a god.  Prove it.

Theists were here first, so the burden of proof is on you late-comers.

This is little more than a roundabout way of admitting that there is no evidence for the existence of god.

Otherwise, you'd just provide said evidence.
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #185 on: December 28, 2013, 03:30:54 PM »
So what drives you to continue to haunt these hallowed halls and live in a continuous circle of posts?
Now there's a good question that isn't on-topic at all.

Christians come in 4 flavours

(i) uneducated, unthinking
(ii) Well-meaning, fluffy bunny, "God loves everyone"
(iii) Those who have taken an interest beyond the average but look for proof to confirm their preconceptions.
(iv) Those who simply accept their belief as part of their life and get on with it without bothering others.

All Christians differ

(i) In the way they perceive God and/or the Trinity.
(ii) The way they explain what to others is the inexplicable
(iii) In what parts of their Book they have read.
(iv) The knowledge they have of pre-Christian society, the political and socio-economic circumstances of the OT, Post-crucifixion history, the absence (as there always will be) of Q.

All Christians have in common the false ideas that
(i) There is free-will
(ii) Sacrificing your son can do something
(iii) Morality stems from Yahweh, The Lord of Hosts.
(iv) Heaven exists

No Christian can explain
(i) Why God will not heal amputees
(ii) The immortality of gods
(iii) The source of the energy of gods
(iv) Why Christianity is more believable than any other religion.

No Christian will accept that
(i) their religion is a state of mind: no more, no less.
(ii) No god is real. (others may not be, but theirs is.)
(iii) God has retreated because knowledge has grown: the god of the gaps. That which is attributed to gods is only that which we do not know. It is a badge of honour amongst some Christians to "not know" various established facts and thus prevent the ingress of destructive wisdom into the sanctum of ignorance that supports all religions.

gzusfreke,

We chose our name on this forum to say something about ourselves: I see where you are coming from: Unapologetic conviction based upon accepting the impossible without question. A denial of reality. A rejection of that which is shown. To do otherwise would lessen your god.

You are but one of many who have come to throw themselves upon the hard rocks of reality. There will be many more, drawn here to have their belief challenged.

When you eventually leave, I hope you take with you a few of the things we have given you.

That is why we are here. We sow the seeds of critical thinking. Have your beliefs and live your life. But do not even attempt to convince others that your way is uniquely correct. Some time you are going to have to say, "Well, that's the way I see it but there is no evidence for it; it is my mind, which is my only window on reality."

I hope this answers your query and that we may now continue with what is a very interesting question.

« Last Edit: December 28, 2013, 03:32:35 PM by Graybeard »
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #186 on: December 28, 2013, 05:32:31 PM »
So what drives you to continue to haunt these hallowed halls and live in a continuous circle of posts?
Now there's a good question that isn't on-topic at all.

Christians come in 4 flavours

(i) uneducated, unthinking
(ii) Well-meaning, fluffy bunny, "God loves everyone"
(iii) Those who have taken an interest beyond the average but look for proof to confirm their preconceptions.
(iv) Those who simply accept their belief as part of their life and get on with it without bothering others.

All Christians differ

(i) In the way they perceive God and/or the Trinity.
(ii) The way they explain what to others is the inexplicable
(iii) In what parts of their Book they have read.
(iv) The knowledge they have of pre-Christian society, the political and socio-economic circumstances of the OT, Post-crucifixion history, the absence (as there always will be) of Q.

All Christians have in common the false ideas that
(i) There is free-will
(ii) Sacrificing your son can do something
(iii) Morality stems from Yahweh, The Lord of Hosts.
(iv) Heaven exists

No Christian can explain
(i) Why God will not heal amputees
(ii) The immortality of gods
(iii) The source of the energy of gods
(iv) Why Christianity is more believable than any other religion.

No Christian will accept that
(i) their religion is a state of mind: no more, no less.
(ii) No god is real. (others may not be, but theirs is.)
(iii) God has retreated because knowledge has grown: the god of the gaps. That which is attributed to gods is only that which we do not know. It is a badge of honour amongst some Christians to "not know" various established facts and thus prevent the ingress of destructive wisdom into the sanctum of ignorance that supports all religions.

gzusfreke,

We chose our name on this forum to say something about ourselves: I see where you are coming from: Unapologetic conviction based upon accepting the impossible without question. A denial of reality. A rejection of that which is shown. To do otherwise would lessen your god.

You are but one of many who have come to throw themselves upon the hard rocks of reality. There will be many more, drawn here to have their belief challenged.

When you eventually leave, I hope you take with you a few of the things we have given you.

That is why we are here. We sow the seeds of critical thinking. Have your beliefs and live your life. But do not even attempt to convince others that your way is uniquely correct. Some time you are going to have to say, "Well, that's the way I see it but there is no evidence for it; it is my mind, which is my only window on reality."

I hope this answers your query and that we may now continue with what is a very interesting question.

Very interesting analysis.

I like to see myself as the 4th flavor;

Totally agree on areas where Christians differ;

Regarding the false ideas:

When talking about free-will, are you meaning free-will as it applies to Christian theism or free-will in general?
I am still wrestling with item ii;
I agree with item iii
I do believe heaven exists but am unable to prove it.

Regarding what Christians cannot explain:
I agree with the first three;
On the 4th, I am at a point where I don't see Christianity as being any more or less believable than any other religion.

I think you are correct about what Christians will not accept. 

Having made such a confession, I want to go on record to say again how much I truly appreciate this website and the people who participate.  By your questions and observations you have helped me refine what I believe and why. 

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy
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Offline gzusfreke

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #187 on: December 28, 2013, 06:38:37 PM »
Where is this supernatural realm?  How does it interact with the natural realm?  If one is to find this god, or not find it, then its context must be stated.  For example, "the baseball exists in my bedroom".

To state "God exists" on its own is meaningless.  So, without hand-waving, point it out already.

Using your logic, if we can't give an exact longitude and latitude of a location, or an object at that location, they don't exist.
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline gzusfreke

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #188 on: December 28, 2013, 06:40:05 PM »

No, you misunderstand.  How does that process work?

Must be my meds.  Can you elaborate please, because I sincerely would like to understand and give you a good reply that expresses my worldview on whatever it is that you are asking me.


So you do take meds for some mental disorder?

sinus infection, but I bet you and some of your forum buddies could recommend from experience some really good drugs if I ever do get some mental disorder.
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline gzusfreke

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #189 on: December 28, 2013, 06:48:29 PM »

For the record, is it correct to conclude you are defining religion as " a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe"?  If not, what definition of religion do you use?


I only copied that definition, I didn't author it, thus the link to give credit to where credit is due.

My thoughts on religion:

-Religion is man's attempt to either reach God, or to be God.
-Religion is the set of beliefs that someone holds that rule his thoughts, motivations, and actions towards others.
-While "Christianity" as most people see it could be classified as a "religion," following Jesus as His disciple is just a new way of walking through life.

If I am understanding you correctly, the definition of religion that you didn't author (a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe) applies to atheists.

Correct.


Quote
For Non-Christian theists the following definitions of religion apply:

-Religion is man's attempt to either reach God, or to be God.
-Religion is the set of beliefs that someone holds that rule his thoughts, motivations, and actions towards others.

This would encompass all atheists and all theists, including most of what is perceived to be Christianity.

Quote
For Christian Theists the following definition of religion applies:
-While "Christianity" as most people see it could be classified as a "religion," following Jesus as His disciple is just a new way of walking through life.

Following Jesus with heart, soul, mind, and strength is more than a set of beliefs.  It is a way of life that is ruled by the love, mercy, and grace of God, not a list of do's and don'ts.


Quote
Correct?  If the above understanding of definitions of religion applied to atheists, non-Christian theists and Christian theists is incorrect, what is the correct understanding? 

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

These are my thoughts.
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline gzusfreke

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #190 on: December 28, 2013, 06:51:33 PM »
A report has been filed, so I am investigating.

Hatter, please moderate your language.

Gzusfreke, if you look at Hatter's response to you, you will see he says that while he believes you to be wrong, he will alter his beliefs if he is shown to be wrong.  You selectively took part of his response which effectively 180d what he was actually saying.  I would like to hear your comments on this please.


As written
I'll try to be serious about this, because you guys appear to really want an answer, almost as if you really want someone to prove Christianity true.

Honestly we think you are wrong. Quite wrong. However we, or I at least, hold that factuality trumps previously held notions and desires.  I don't LIKE being proven wrong, however the temporary embarrassment is trivial to actually being wrong.


As quoted
Honestly we think you are wrong. Quite wrong..

And you have an "open" mind that is made up before I even began to answer your question, so why are we wasting each other's time?

My perception of what Hatter said is that his mind is already made up - no matter what I say, before I even say it, he has already passed judgment on it and it is wrong.  That's different from saying "We would like to hear you out on this topic and then we'll decide if we think you are wrong or not."
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline gzusfreke

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #191 on: December 28, 2013, 07:07:26 PM »


No. That is not what Hatter is asking, and unfortunately, I think you are aware of that. Hatter's question, basically put (and he will correct me if I am wrong) is "what is it about other religions that makes them wrong, but makes yours right?" - What differentiates the others?

Thanks

GB Mod


The Twitter response is:

Christianity is true and all other religions are false because only Christianity provides:

1)  a reasonable answer to how the universe and us got here.  I know you all are familiar with the cosmological argument, so for time and space's sake I won't repeat.
2)  a reasonable answer to the problem of pain and suffering.  Again, you all are familiar with that argument as well, so no need to repeat it.
3)  a way of salvation that does not rely on one's own effort to obtain it, thus one can not only receive the salvation but have assurance of it because it is not based on their own works.  if you all are as smart as you claim to be, then you know what Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism, and others offer in the way of salvation and assurance of it, if anything.
4)  a God Who is the First Cause in the salvation process.  God chooses to give salvation to someone and they are saved.  This is related to 3 above. It is not someone seeking God and finding Him, it is God choosing to make the lost one found.


In addition, there is the personal experience that I and many others have had.


A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline gzusfreke

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #192 on: December 28, 2013, 07:09:29 PM »
Theists were here first, so the burden of proof is on you late-comers.

The burden of proof is not born by whoever made a claim first.  The burden of proof is born by whichever party is making a claim that extends ontology.  The theist is the one making such a claim; therefore, the theist bears the burden of proof.  Atheists do not make a claim that extends ontology.  (Actually, most atheists don't make a claim at all, but that's a separate discussion.)

Theism was the default mode.  Atheism busted up in here to challenge the status quo.  I say the burden of proof falls on the challenger.
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #193 on: December 28, 2013, 07:13:51 PM »
The Twitter response is:

Christianity is true and all other religions are false because only Christianity provides:

1)  a reasonable answer to how the universe and us got here.  I know you all are familiar with the cosmological argument, so for time and space's sake I won't repeat.
2)  a reasonable answer to the problem of pain and suffering.  Again, you all are familiar with that argument as well, so no need to repeat it.
3)  a way of salvation that does not rely on one's own effort to obtain it, thus one can not only receive the salvation but have assurance of it because it is not based on their own works.  if you all are as smart as you claim to be, then you know what Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism, and others offer in the way of salvation and assurance of it, if anything.
4)  a God Who is the First Cause in the salvation process.  God chooses to give salvation to someone and they are saved.  This is related to 3 above. It is not someone seeking God and finding Him, it is God choosing to make the lost one found.


In addition, there is the personal experience that I and many others have had.

I agree that your god gives these answers. He must be an idiot to be wrong every time.

Now, I know the bible says your god knows everything and is supposed to be powerful, but does the bible actually say that your god is intelligent?

« Last Edit: December 28, 2013, 07:27:41 PM by Foxy Freedom »
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #194 on: December 28, 2013, 07:18:36 PM »
GF  why did this gods  plan include killing everyone  BEFORE offering salvation?
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline Aaron123

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #195 on: December 28, 2013, 07:46:53 PM »
Theism was the default mode.  Atheism busted up in here to challenge the status quo.  I say the burden of proof falls on the challenger.

Burden of proof is not dependent on when a claim is made.

It's dependent on whom is making a claim.  The timing has nothing to do with it.
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #196 on: December 28, 2013, 07:56:55 PM »


Theism was the default mode.  Atheism busted up in here to challenge the status quo.  I say the burden of proof falls on the challenger.

So disprove the assertion the Flying Spaghetti Monster made the universe last Tuesday and the assertion shoes fly around the room while you are asleep and no recording devices are present and Canada secretly landed a man on the moon in the 50s.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Antidote

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #197 on: December 28, 2013, 07:58:29 PM »
And prove to me Pokemon don't really exist. They just have to, I mean Gamefreak wouldn't lie right?
According to Cpt. Obvious: Theists think they know God, Atheists require evidence.

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Do not assume I was religious in any way, I have never been religious.

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #198 on: December 28, 2013, 08:05:35 PM »
I say the burden of proof falls on the challenger.

And you're wrong.  Burden of proof falls on the one making a positive claim, regardless of whether he said it before or after the person not making a positive claim.  That's simply all there is to it; if you don't accept or understand this, then you need to educated on the matter.

It's somewhat similar to criminal trials in the United States.  In such trials, the burden of proof relies entirely on the prosecution, the side that is making the criminal claim against the defendant.  The defense bears no burden of proof at all.  And it doesn't matter when the prosecution made its accusation.
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Online Azdgari

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #199 on: December 28, 2013, 08:29:02 PM »
Where is this supernatural realm?  How does it interact with the natural realm?  If one is to find this god, or not find it, then its context must be stated.  For example, "the baseball exists in my bedroom".

To state "God exists" on its own is meaningless.  So, without hand-waving, point it out already.

Using your logic, if we can't give an exact longitude and latitude of a location, or an object at that location, they don't exist.

No.  Using my logic, if we can't give any boundary conditions, they might as well not exist.

You no doubt know this and are simply lying.  That is Christian behaviour.
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline gzusfreke

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #200 on: December 28, 2013, 08:35:51 PM »
I say the burden of proof falls on the challenger.

And you're wrong.  Burden of proof falls on the one making a positive claim, regardless of whether he said it before or after the person not making a positive claim.  That's simply all there is to it; if you don't accept or understand this, then you need to educated on the matter.

It's somewhat similar to criminal trials in the United States.  In such trials, the burden of proof relies entirely on the prosecution, the side that is making the criminal claim against the defendant.  The defense bears no burden of proof at all.  And it doesn't matter when the prosecution made its accusation.

Theism is the defense position, atheism is the prosecution making the accusation against theism.
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline gzusfreke

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #201 on: December 28, 2013, 08:40:38 PM »
Where is this supernatural realm?  How does it interact with the natural realm?  If one is to find this god, or not find it, then its context must be stated.  For example, "the baseball exists in my bedroom".

To state "God exists" on its own is meaningless.  So, without hand-waving, point it out already.

Using your logic, if we can't give an exact longitude and latitude of a location, or an object at that location, they don't exist.

No.  Using my logic, if we can't give any boundary conditions, they might as well not exist.

You no doubt know this and are simply lying.  That is Christian behaviour.

I know that I exist in the natural realm.  What can be seen, held, touched.  The natural realm is the universe. 

The supernatural realm is other than the natural realm.  If I knew where it existed, then I would gladly share that information with you.  Because I don't know where it exists does not mean that it doesn't exist.

Lying is not peculiar just to Christians.  It is a human fault shared by all.
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Online Azdgari

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #202 on: December 28, 2013, 08:44:52 PM »
Theism is the defense position, atheism is the prosecution making the accusation against theism.

Regardless of whether or not this is true --- you do admit, then, that you were 100% wrong regarding the burden of proof being related to who made their claim first?

It's important to be honest about these sorts of things.

I know that I exist in the natural realm.  What can be seen, held, touched.  The natural realm is the universe. 

There is plenty of stuff in the natural universe that cannot be so readily experienced first-hand.

The supernatural realm is other than the natural realm.  If I knew where it existed, then I would gladly share that information with you.  Because I don't know where it exists does not mean that it doesn't exist.

It does mean that it might as well not exist.  And it means that making claims about what's in it is profoundly dishonest.

Lying is not peculiar just to Christians.  It is a human fault shared by all.

It is a fault shared by all, except within Christianity as you've practiced it here on the forum.  There, it's not a fault, but a virtue.  Honesty is a deadly sin, for it leads away from faith.
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.