Author Topic: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)  (Read 13438 times)

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Offline Boots

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #145 on: December 27, 2013, 10:30:50 AM »

So, because you wantsomething to be true, you believe it *is* true?

How did you get there?  No, I want it to be true that I am richer than Bill Gates, but wanting it to be true doesn't make it true.  But there are some objective truths in the universe that, just because I don't want them to be true, doesn't make them false.

I got there by your statement, which I quoted:

"Because living is cruel and meaningless if pain, loss, and suffering have no purpose"

You don't like the thought of pain, loss, and suffering (ie. "life") having no "purpose."  I am suggesting you're creating a purpose because you want/need there to be one.

Quote from: gzusfreke
I took Hatter's request literally and provided him what he wanted. 

acutally, no you didn't, even if you did take his request literally.  You simply said "since Christianity is true..."  you can't assume what you're trying to prove is true, is true.

what Hatter was asking for (again, Hatter, please correct me if I'm wrong) is for your logical explanation of why you believe Xianity, and not any other religion.
It's one of the reasons I'm an atheist today.  I decided to take my religion seriously, and that's when it started to fall apart for me.
~jdawg70

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #146 on: December 27, 2013, 10:35:10 AM »


I took Hatter's request literally and provided him what he wanted.   ;)

Can you logically disprove or prove a philosophical concept? If so, you go first and show me how it's done.

But you are not being asked to prove a philosophical concept. You are being asked to distinguish your cosmology, that has real actual worldly implications, from other cosmologies through logical means. You are not being asked about the redness of red. You are not being asked about the "proof" that a philosophy, such as stoicism, is the only true way to live.

You are being asked to back up your assertations the Christianity is true and other religions are not. To do otherwise is dodging.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline gzusfreke

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #147 on: December 27, 2013, 11:02:33 AM »

So, because you wantsomething to be true, you believe it *is* true?

How did you get there?  No, I want it to be true that I am richer than Bill Gates, but wanting it to be true doesn't make it true.  But there are some objective truths in the universe that, just because I don't want them to be true, doesn't make them false.

I got there by your statement, which I quoted:

"Because living is cruel and meaningless if pain, loss, and suffering have no purpose"

You don't like the thought of pain, loss, and suffering (ie. "life") having no "purpose."  I am suggesting you're creating a purpose because you want/need there to be one.

Who does like "the thought of pain, loss, and suffering (ie. 'life') having no 'purpose'"?  I suppose there are a few, but the overwhelming majority of mankind has written about these things for hundreds and thousands of years.  So it is more of a universal concern than just an individual concern.

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Quote from: gzusfreke
I took Hatter's request literally and provided him what he wanted. 

acutally, no you didn't, even if you did take his request literally.  You simply said "since Christianity is true..."  you can't assume what you're trying to prove is true, is true.

what Hatter was asking for (again, Hatter, please correct me if I'm wrong) is for your logical explanation of why you believe Xianity, and not any other religion.

How do I give you a logical explanation of a philosophical or spiritual or supernatural concept?
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline gzusfreke

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #148 on: December 27, 2013, 11:07:38 AM »
You are being asked to back up your assertations the Christianity is true and other religions are not. To do otherwise is dodging.

So you are asserting that other religions are not true as if that is fact, but you are wanting me to provide the facts of why that is so?
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Online Graybeard

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #149 on: December 27, 2013, 11:15:39 AM »
You are being asked to back up your assertations the Christianity is true and other religions are not. To do otherwise is dodging.

So you are asserting that other religions are not true as if that is fact, but you are wanting me to provide the facts of why that is so?
No. That is not what Hatter is asking, and unfortunately, I think you are aware of that. Hatter's question, basically put (and he will correct me if I am wrong) is what is it about other religions that makes them wrong, but makes yours right? - What differentiates the others?

It would be a favour to the forum if you would answer this question and it would also set aside those charges of "dodging".

Thanks

GB Mod
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Boots

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #150 on: December 27, 2013, 11:19:38 AM »

So, because you wantsomething to be true, you believe it *is* true?

How did you get there?  No, I want it to be true that I am richer than Bill Gates, but wanting it to be true doesn't make it true.  But there are some objective truths in the universe that, just because I don't want them to be true, doesn't make them false.

I got there by your statement, which I quoted:

"Because living is cruel and meaningless if pain, loss, and suffering have no purpose"

You don't like the thought of pain, loss, and suffering (ie. "life") having no "purpose."  I am suggesting you're creating a purpose because you want/need there to be one.

Who does like "the thought of pain, loss, and suffering (ie. 'life') having no 'purpose'"?  I suppose there are a few, but the overwhelming majority of mankind has written about these things for hundreds and thousands of years.  So it is more of a universal concern than just an individual concern.

Agreed 100%.  But here's the rub, and the point:  just because someone doesn't like it, doesn't make inventing a god to artificially infuse purpose 'true'

For me, I choose to make my own 'purpose.'  I understand my life will be over when i die, and I have made peace with that knowledge, because I choose to do what I can to make the world a better place for my having lived in it.  that is enough for me.

Quote
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Quote from: gzusfreke
I took Hatter's request literally and provided him what he wanted. 

acutally, no you didn't, even if you did take his request literally.  You simply said "since Christianity is true..."  you can't assume what you're trying to prove is true, is true.

what Hatter was asking for (again, Hatter, please correct me if I'm wrong) is for your logical explanation of why you believe Xianity, and not any other religion.

How do I give you a logical explanation of a philosophical or spiritual or supernatural concept?

The question is, why (logically) do YOU espouse the Christian beliefs that you do, as opposed to any other beliefs?  (is this really that difficult to grasp?)

Edit: yeah, what GB said...
It's one of the reasons I'm an atheist today.  I decided to take my religion seriously, and that's when it started to fall apart for me.
~jdawg70

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #151 on: December 27, 2013, 11:30:49 AM »

So for five years, I was mostly an atheist until I heard about Deism near the end of the five years. I studied that for a little while and felt comfortable that Deism was a better explanation for the universe than Carl Sagan could offer, but it also provided the answer why there was pain and suffering in my life.  It didn't make me like God any better, just answered some nagging questions about existence.  I was a devout Deist.  God left me alone and I left Him alone.


First of all, you do realize that there is pain and suffering in everyones life. Obviously some end up having more of both than others do, but it is a fairly normal thing.

My question is this: Why do you think there has to be a specific reason for it? Outside of what is natural, or cultural, or individually generated? Why do you think there has to be some central cause (evil) rather than an assortment of causes, some of which can be amplified by cruel or careless humans?

Because everything that is, has a cause. 

Because living is cruel and meaningless if pain, loss, and suffering have no purpose.

Bad news. There is no higher purpose. There is the purpose of life, inherently, to just keep keepin' on (apparently a biological "imperative", because living things of all sorts are big into reproduction) and there whatever importance that we, as sentient beings, assign to it. Anything more than that is imaginary, and detracts from reality.

The lack of a higher purpose doesn't bother me in the least. You can learn to adjust too.

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I can't imagine a reason in the world why everything that goes wrong should be considered abnormal and hence proof of an evil force lurking amongst us. In fact, it would take a world where nothing went wrong that would convince me that a higher power exists. One where normal includes bad stuff is just what I would expect. And it is exactly what we have.


At least you can conceive of a world where nothing went wrong. That's a good sign.  There's hope for you yet.

I can conceive because I am aware of the concept of opposites. When I stub my toe, I have no trouble envisioning a world where everything was soft and painless. But I am also aware of Mr. and Mrs. Realtiy and their insistence that things be as they are, not as I wish them to be.

I'm don't envision a better world, I imagine it. Because the imagination is the only source of such things. And it is never hard for a human to think about opposites.

This need not be an issue. The first step is to accept that you will die someday and that will be the end of you, in almost every sense. The elements that make up your body will continue on in one form or another, but you will be but a memory. And this is no big deal. Billions of people have experienced their end already, and billions more will do the same thing later on.

Almost every cell in your body has been replaced in the last six or seven years. You are physically a different person than you were in 2006. So you've already died a few times, technically speaking. Your mind assumes a continuum, and you want to carry it out beyond death, but it doesn't work that way.

Replacing life's mysteries with fantasies is no way to live. And a "meaningless" life is far more interesting than having a life  with "meaning" shoved down your throat.
Jesus, the cracker flavored treat!

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #152 on: December 27, 2013, 11:52:43 AM »
You are being asked to back up your assertations the Christianity is true and other religions are not. To do otherwise is dodging.

So you are asserting that other religions are not true as if that is fact, but you are wanting me to provide the facts of why that is so?
No. That is not what Hatter is asking, and unfortunately, I think you are aware of that. Hatter's question, basically put (and he will correct me if I am wrong) is what is it about other religions that makes them wrong, but makes yours right? - What differentiates the others?

It would be a favour to the forum if you would answer this question and it would also set aside those charges of "dodging".

Thanks

GB Mod

Facts are part of the logical process(the agreed upon premise), or you deal with circular reasoning or ignoring the evidence to the contrary. Unsupported assertions are not facts.

However, it is my experience when you ask for a Christian for "facts" you get one of the two things above. Or some sort of vague touchy feely Jello mush that could equally apply to other religions.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #153 on: December 27, 2013, 03:33:12 PM »
if I exercise my free will one day and just not show up for work,

How does the making of that choice work please?  What actually happens while you are making it?

I think about my options.  I have free will to choose at least within the options.

Option 1.....

No, you misunderstand.  How does that process work?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline gzusfreke

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #154 on: December 27, 2013, 04:55:39 PM »
You are being asked to back up your assertations the Christianity is true and other religions are not. To do otherwise is dodging.

So you are asserting that other religions are not true as if that is fact, but you are wanting me to provide the facts of why that is so?
No. That is not what Hatter is asking, and unfortunately, I think you are aware of that. Hatter's question, basically put (and he will correct me if I am wrong) is what is it about other religions that makes them wrong, but makes yours right? - What differentiates the others?

It would be a favour to the forum if you would answer this question and it would also set aside those charges of "dodging".

Thanks

GB Mod


you are right and I have been playing the troll and having fun at your expense.  doggone that ole sin nature!

I'll try to be serious about this, because you guys appear to really want an answer, almost as if you really want someone to prove Christianity true.

As I have stated before, I consider this a monumental task and I will attempt making some coherent, rational, thoughtful response, but I am sadly out of my league, so if I draw on the words of others, it is because I believe that they can speak to this more clearly or more concisely than I.

Do you consider atheism a "religion"?  While not an organized religion with a central hub of authority, I believe that it takes "faith" to be an atheist, so can I start with the apology on why Christianity is true and atheism is false?

By the way, you guys have been really good sports while I was toying with you.  No hard feelings?
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline gzusfreke

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #155 on: December 27, 2013, 04:56:46 PM »

No, you misunderstand.  How does that process work?

Must be my meds.  Can you elaborate please, because I sincerely would like to understand and give you a good reply that expresses my worldview on whatever it is that you are asking me.
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #156 on: December 27, 2013, 05:31:30 PM »


you are right and I have been playing the troll and having fun at your expense.  doggone that ole sin nature!

I'll try to be serious about this, because you guys appear to really want an answer, almost as if you really want someone to prove Christianity true.

Honestly we think you are wrong. Quite wrong. However we, or I at least, hold that factuality trumps previously held notions and desires.  I don't LIKE being proven wrong, however the temporary embarrassment is trivial to actually being wrong.


As I have stated before, I consider this a monumental task and I will attempt making some coherent, rational, thoughtful response, but I am sadly out of my league, so if I draw on the words of others, it is because I believe that they can speak to this more clearly or more concisely than I.

Do you consider atheism a "religion"?  While not an organized religion with a central hub of authority, I believe that it takes "faith" to be an atheist, so can I start with the apology on why Christianity is true and atheism is false?

No, atheism isn't a religion. It could hold the same place for legal purposes(also known as a legal fiction:An assumption that something occurred or someone or something exists which, in fact, is not the case, but that is made in the law to enable a court to equitably resolve a matter before it. The most common example is a Corporation is treated as a person for the purposes of contract law.) Atheism, to me, is a subset of skepticism. In this case skeptical of the assertion there are one or more god(s).

As to this faith to be an atheist thing: that's the portion that is insulting.

I have a belief that while I am asleep and there are no recording devices present that my shoes do not fly around the room. You might even call it I have faith in non-flying shoes.

And if you do, so what? You are really really stretching the definition of belief and faith.  The belief in non-flying shoes is not the equal to the belief shoes fly around the room while I am asleep. Both may be claims, for sure.  However the claim, the claim that violates what we see and can test, is the one that has the burden of proof.

Theist, until I mentioned The flying shoe thing, you had no belief about flying shoes. You were Aflyingshoeists. After the claim about flying shoes you are still an Aflyingshoeist, but now one with a belief that flying shoes are a falsehood.

Atheism is similar. The Atheism we had as a baby is very different than the atheism we have as adults. Adult Atheism is a belief that things operate as they appear without the need for gods If you belief that there is an invisible force making things operate differently, the burden of proof is on you. Many time through the ages of man has this been demonstrated, Gravity being an excellent example. The burden of proof was on the claimant, and they met that burden of proof. Similarly many other such theories have come and gone, and those that have been proven have been added to the sum knowledge of man. Many seem to gain some currency, and when proof was not forthcoming, they were dropped and mostly forgotten, Ether theory for instance.

So while some argue whether Atheism is truly a belief like theism by semantic games, it is just obfuscation.

Yes it is a kind of faith. It is that same kind of faith that I have that my shoes do not fly around my round when I am asleep and no recording devices are present. I'm sure you share that same faith, the faith of NoFlyingShoeswhlesleeping, how's that faith working out for you? Does it require a deep conviction of resolute solemnity, or do you have that faith because the proposition that your shoes fly around when you are asleep is in contradiction to everything observable about reality?


By the way, you guys have been really good sports while I was toying with you.  No hard feelings?

More like "Mild irritation that can be overcome with not doing it again" type feelings.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2013, 05:45:30 PM by Hatter23 »
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #157 on: December 27, 2013, 05:41:46 PM »
I'll try to be serious about this, because you guys appear to really want an answer, almost as if you really want someone to prove Christianity true.

You might be misreading us. If someone can prove christianity is true, that's fine. But what we're more interested in is showing people who believe where they are wrong.

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Do you consider atheism a "religion"?  While not an organized religion with a central hub of authority, I believe that it takes "faith" to be an atheist, so can I start with the apology on why Christianity is true and atheism is false?

Atheism is very simple. A disbelief in gods. It has no churches, no holy books, no holy leaders, no hymns, no pews, no child indoctrination programs, no tithing, no tax-free status. So no, it isn't a religion. It is a stance on a subject, and nothing more. Each atheist forms their world view without the benefit of being told what to think by others. The only thing we really have in common is that we lack the tendency to believe ancient myths. Plus we usually aren't real happy about efforts to run the world according via religious dogma.

People have come here and insisted that we are indeed a religion, which is not surprising. Folks who are not clear on what religion is appear to be far more prone to distort other things than your average bear.

So those who insist on telling us that we're something we're not while at the same time trying to convince us to follow something we think is untrue tend not to impress.

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By the way, you guys have been really good sports while I was toying with you.  No hard feelings?

We do fine when theists are both civil and willing to talk. A heavy reliance on scripture, without including personal interpretations, or other evidence that the theist has actually thought about whatever it is they are saying, tends to bother us. And theists who ignore the hard questions and react only to trite and unimportant quips tend to fall out of favor fast. You'll know if you are going sour on us. If for no other reason than I'm here and I'll mention it.

If you can avoid ignoring questions, you'll do fine. You'll get your chance to convert us, we'll get out chance to convert you, and a good time can be had by all. Just don't expect any miracles. There aren't any to be found on this site.
Jesus, the cracker flavored treat!

Offline gzusfreke

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #158 on: December 27, 2013, 06:10:48 PM »


you are right and I have been playing the troll and having fun at your expense.  doggone that ole sin nature!

I'll try to be serious about this, because you guys appear to really want an answer, almost as if you really want someone to prove Christianity true.

Honestly we think you are wrong. Quite wrong..

And you have an "open" mind that is made up before I even began to answer your question, so why are we wasting each other's time?

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As I have stated before, I consider this a monumental task and I will attempt making some coherent, rational, thoughtful response, but I am sadly out of my league, so if I draw on the words of others, it is because I believe that they can speak to this more clearly or more concisely than I.

Do you consider atheism a "religion"?  While not an organized religion with a central hub of authority, I believe that it takes "faith" to be an atheist, so can I start with the apology on why Christianity is true and atheism is false?

No, atheism isn't a religion. It could hold the same place for legal purposes(also known as a legal fiction:An assumption that something occurred or someone or something exists which, in fact, is not the case, but that is made in the law to enable a court to equitably resolve a matter before it. The most common example is a Corporation is treated as a person for the purposes of contract law.) Atheism, to me, is a subset of skepticism. In this case skeptical of the assertion there are one or more god(s).

Atheist "church" = atheism is a religion.  http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/29/sunday-assembly-atheist-church_n_4339870.html


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As to this faith to be an atheist thing: that's the portion that is insulting.

You have faith that there is no God. You have faith that there is no explanation for why what is, is.  You have faith that there is no meaning and purpose to pain, loss, and suffering.  If anyone should be insulted, it should be me being insulted by your intellectual dishonesty.  No meanness to this statement, it just is, without any morally evil (which does not exist) intent.

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I have a belief that while I am asleep and there are no recording devices present that my shoes do not fly around the room. You might even call it I have faith in non-flying shoes.

And if you do, so what? You are really really stretching the definition of belief and faith.  The belief in non-flying shoes is not the equal to the belief shoes fly around the room while I am asleep. Both may be claims, for sure.  However the claim, the claim that violates what we see and can test, is the one that has the burden of proof.

Theist, until I mentioned The flying shoe thing, you had no belief about flying shoes. You were Aflyingshoeists. After the claim about flying shoes you are still an Aflyingshoeist, but now one with a belief that flying shoes are a falsehood.

Those flying shoes with their shoe laces flapping in the wind look an awful lot like the FSM.  Just sayin'.


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Atheism is similar. The Atheism we had as a baby is very different than the atheism we have as adults. Adult Atheism is a belief that things operate as they appear without the need for gods If you belief that there is an invisible force making things operate differently, the burden of proof is on you. Many time through the ages of man has this been demonstrated, Gravity being an excellent example. The burden of proof was on the claimant, and they met that burden of proof. Similarly many other such theories have come and gone, and those that have been proven have been added to the sum knowledge of man. Many seem to gain some currency, and when proof was not forthcoming, they were dropped and mostly forgotten, Ether theory for instance.

Why is it that pretty much until the time of David, King of Israel, the problem never was atheism but worship of false gods?  Then David said something about the fool saying in his heart "There is no god." (Ps. 14:1) and then atheism is introduced to the world, yet is is still not the default position of mankind? And even today, with the so-called "rise in popularity" of New Atheism, atheism is not the default position of mankind, yet theists are the one who have to meet the burden of proof?  Really?  You guys don't even play by your own rules.


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So while some argue whether Atheism is truly a belief like theism by semantic games, it is just obfuscation.

Yes it is a kind of faith. It is that same kind of faith that I have that my shoes do not fly around my round when I am asleep and no recording devices are present. I'm sure you share that same faith, the faith of NoFlyingShoeswhlesleeping, how's that faith working out for you? Does it require a deep conviction of resolute solemnity, or do you have that faith because the proposition that your shoes fly around when you are asleep is in contradiction to everything observable about reality?

Let's see, did PP convince me?  Well, . . . no.  It takes faith that NOTHING + CHANCE + TIME = SOMETHING.  It takes faith that even CHANCE and TIME could exist with NOTHING.


[
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quote author=gzusfreke link=topic=26076.msg591819#msg591819 date=1388181339]
By the way, you guys have been really good sports while I was toying with you.  No hard feelings?
[/quote]

More like "Mild irritation that can be overcome with not doing it again" type feelings.
[/quote]

No promises.  I will treat you in the same way you treat me, which means if I see an opportunity to get in a dig, I will take it.  You all do the same, why should I be any different?
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline gzusfreke

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #159 on: December 27, 2013, 06:20:46 PM »
I'll try to be serious about this, because you guys appear to really want an answer, almost as if you really want someone to prove Christianity true.

You might be misreading us. If someone can prove christianity is true, that's fine. But what we're more interested in is showing people who believe where they are wrong.

Ok, then prove there is no God of the Bible beyond any shadow of a doubt.

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Do you consider atheism a "religion"?  While not an organized religion with a central hub of authority, I believe that it takes "faith" to be an atheist, so can I start with the apology on why Christianity is true and atheism is false?

Atheism is very simple. A disbelief in gods. It has no churches, no holy books, no holy leaders, no hymns, no pews, no child indoctrination programs, no tithing, no tax-free status. So no, it isn't a religion. It is a stance on a subject, and nothing more. Each atheist forms their world view without the benefit of being told what to think by others. The only thing we really have in common is that we lack the tendency to believe ancient myths. Plus we usually aren't real happy about efforts to run the world according via religious dogma.

People have come here and insisted that we are indeed a religion, which is not surprising. Folks who are not clear on what religion is appear to be far more prone to distort other things than your average bear.

So those who insist on telling us that we're something we're not while at the same time trying to convince us to follow something we think is untrue tend not to impress.

religion: a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, . . . http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/religion

You have your set of beliefs concerning these, don't you?

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By the way, you guys have been really good sports while I was toying with you.  No hard feelings?

We do fine when theists are both civil and willing to talk. A heavy reliance on scripture, without including personal interpretations, or other evidence that the theist has actually thought about whatever it is they are saying, tends to bother us. And theists who ignore the hard questions and react only to trite and unimportant quips tend to fall out of favor fast. You'll know if you are going sour on us. If for no other reason than I'm here and I'll mention it.

If you can avoid ignoring questions, you'll do fine. You'll get your chance to convert us, we'll get out chance to convert you, and a good time can be had by all. Just don't expect any miracles. There aren't any to be found on this site.

As long as this goes both ways, then I'll try to address questions, but I've had a few questions that have not been answered.  Also, I'm one guy trying to respond to you, Graybeard, OCG, boots, Anfaulgir, and a few more.  I'm going to ignore what seems to be trite, or unimportant, or what I perceive to be trolling. But I will answer even some trolling attempts if it provides an opportunity for me to present my worldview on a topic.  I don't want to convert you.  I just want you to consider if my worldview is possible.  I'll let God worry about converting you.  And if there is no God, then you don't have anything to worry about.
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #160 on: December 27, 2013, 06:55:04 PM »
I'll try to be serious about this, because you guys appear to really want an answer, almost as if you really want someone to prove Christianity true.

You might be misreading us. If someone can prove christianity is true, that's fine. But what we're more interested in is showing people who believe where they are wrong.

Ok, then prove there is no God of the Bible beyond any shadow of a doubt.

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Do you consider atheism a "religion"?  While not an organized religion with a central hub of authority, I believe that it takes "faith" to be an atheist, so can I start with the apology on why Christianity is true and atheism is false?

Atheism is very simple. A disbelief in gods. It has no churches, no holy books, no holy leaders, no hymns, no pews, no child indoctrination programs, no tithing, no tax-free status. So no, it isn't a religion. It is a stance on a subject, and nothing more. Each atheist forms their world view without the benefit of being told what to think by others. The only thing we really have in common is that we lack the tendency to believe ancient myths. Plus we usually aren't real happy about efforts to run the world according via religious dogma.

People have come here and insisted that we are indeed a religion, which is not surprising. Folks who are not clear on what religion is appear to be far more prone to distort other things than your average bear.

So those who insist on telling us that we're something we're not while at the same time trying to convince us to follow something we think is untrue tend not to impress.

religion: a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, . . . http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/religion

You have your set of beliefs concerning these, don't you?

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By the way, you guys have been really good sports while I was toying with you.  No hard feelings?

We do fine when theists are both civil and willing to talk. A heavy reliance on scripture, without including personal interpretations, or other evidence that the theist has actually thought about whatever it is they are saying, tends to bother us. And theists who ignore the hard questions and react only to trite and unimportant quips tend to fall out of favor fast. You'll know if you are going sour on us. If for no other reason than I'm here and I'll mention it.

If you can avoid ignoring questions, you'll do fine. You'll get your chance to convert us, we'll get out chance to convert you, and a good time can be had by all. Just don't expect any miracles. There aren't any to be found on this site.

As long as this goes both ways, then I'll try to address questions, but I've had a few questions that have not been answered.  Also, I'm one guy trying to respond to you, Graybeard, OCG, boots, Anfaulgir, and a few more.  I'm going to ignore what seems to be trite, or unimportant, or what I perceive to be trolling. But I will answer even some trolling attempts if it provides an opportunity for me to present my worldview on a topic.  I don't want to convert you.  I just want you to consider if my worldview is possible.  I'll let God worry about converting you.  And if there is no God, then you don't have anything to worry about.

There is a more complete definition of religion in the link cited.  Granted, you did include "...." indicating there is more.  The "more" is as follows:

re·li·gion 
noun 

1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion. 

3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions. 

4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion. 

5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.

For the record, is it correct to conclude you are defining religion as " a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe"?  If not, what definition of religion do you use?

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy
« Last Edit: December 27, 2013, 06:59:44 PM by OldChurchGuy »
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle - Philo of Alexandria

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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #161 on: December 27, 2013, 06:57:06 PM »
You might be misreading us. If someone can prove christianity is true, that's fine. But what we're more interested in is showing people who believe where they are wrong.

Ok, then prove there is no God of the Bible beyond any shadow of a doubt.

That's hard to do. He has been defined so loosely and is defined so without substance that there is no way to do it. But you could help. If you could first disprove Odin or Shiva without a doubt, then we'd have an example to work with. And a better idea about what your standards are.

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Do you consider atheism a "religion"?  While not an organized religion with a central hub of authority, I believe that it takes "faith" to be an atheist, so can I start with the apology on why Christianity is true and atheism is false?

Atheism is very simple. A disbelief in gods. … (snip)

religion: a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, . . . http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/religion

You have your set of beliefs concerning these, don't you?

Nope. The cause? There are theories.  Pretty compelling ones. But my adherence to them doesn't involve much belief, but rather evidence. Mostly. I'm not saying there aren't any beliefs, but mine do not necessary match the beliefs of other atheists, so there is no imagined or dictated coherence.

Nature of the universe? That falls into the same category. I base my understanding of things on research, discoveries and evidence, not a short and inept description of things. Maybe I'm too picky.

And purpose? I don't know of one, so I'm real low on beliefs in that department. We're here, but there doesn't have to be a specific, intentional reason for that to happen. So that doesn't count at all.
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By the way, you guys have been really good sports while I was toying with you.  No hard feelings?

We do fine when theists are both civil and willing to talk. A heavy reliance on scripture, without including personal interpretations, or other evidence that the theist has actually thought about whatever it is they are saying, tends to bother us. And theists who ignore the hard questions and react only to trite and unimportant quips tend to fall out of favor fast. You'll know if you are going sour on us. If for no other reason than I'm here and I'll mention it.

If you can avoid ignoring questions, you'll do fine. You'll get your chance to convert us, we'll get out chance to convert you, and a good time can be had by all. Just don't expect any miracles. There aren't any to be found on this site.

As long as this goes both ways, then I'll try to address questions, but I've had a few questions that have not been answered.  Also, I'm one guy trying to respond to you, Graybeard, OCG, boots, Anfaulgir, and a few more.  I'm going to ignore what seems to be trite, or unimportant, or what I perceive to be trolling. But I will answer even some trolling attempts if it provides an opportunity for me to present my worldview on a topic.  I don't want to convert you.  I just want you to consider if my worldview is possible.  I'll let God worry about converting you.  And if there is no God, then you don't have anything to worry about.


We do have out "Shelter" area, where you can have discussions with a smaller group. And we have our debate section, where you can challenge one of us to a one-on-one debate, which eliminates the part where you're overwhelmed.

We've all considered at least the generic version of your world view. I can't speak for the others, but I've rejected it outright. I need more than one ancient and irrelevant story told multiple times with multiple versions and multiple interpretations by multiple bodies who all claim to be telling the story right. I'm picky like that.
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Online xyzzy

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #162 on: December 27, 2013, 07:25:01 PM »
As long as this goes both ways, then I'll try to address questions, but I've had a few questions that have not been answered.  Also, I'm one guy trying to respond to you, Graybeard, OCG, boots, Anfaulgir, and a few more.  I'm going to ignore what seems to be trite, or unimportant, or what I perceive to be trolling. But I will answer even some trolling attempts if it provides an opportunity for me to present my worldview on a topic.  I don't want to convert you.  I just want you to consider if my worldview is possible. I'll let God worry about converting you.  And if there is no God, then you don't have anything to worry about.

xyzzy - I have no evidence to convince you of anything.  My purpose here is not to convince anyone as that is an impossible task.  No mere human can convince those who hearts are hardened.  I only wish to provoke you to consider thoughtfully the possibility that the Bible is true and God is real.  Again, I do appeal to those who are more learned, more eloquent, and more studied than I because I know that you have the same access to them that I do.  If they cannot convince you, then I certainly stand no chance in doing so.  And if I convince you with reason and logic and you were to only intellectually assent, then I have still failed.
<snip>

gzuefreke, the second quote is in reference to this post. I listed several items that are possible, it's just that they are so improbable to be of no consequence. You acknowledged the post but you didn't actually provide any specific answers other than to assent that evidence backing up what you claim as possible, is lacking.

To rephrase some previous posts, as you most likely know, what actually "happens" right in the atomic and sub-atomic guts of how the real world (universe, actually) operates, is driven by probability not just mere possibility. Similar words, vastly different implications.

So, with reference to my previous posts, do you live your life according to possibilities - something you want us to acknowledge about your world view, or not? If that's so, the consistent thing to do would to be act as if those events above were not just possible, but likely or probable.

Or, are you inconsistent in that you mix and match so that you can ignore all those other possibilities as they are improbable, but use word-play by asking if your god is possible; then you conveniently ignore that you have no demonstrable evidence that it is probable?
« Last Edit: December 27, 2013, 08:27:00 PM by xyzzy »
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool -- Richard Feynman
You are in a maze of twisty little religions, all alike -- xyzzy

Offline Betelnut

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #163 on: December 27, 2013, 07:27:33 PM »
Arggggghhh!  It never stops!  A theist shows up and usually will say these two things, over and over and over again.

"Atheism is a religion--you've got to have FAITH to not believe in something."

And...

"Prove to me that God DOESN'T exist."

It never changes!

So GF, no atheism is not a religion.  You see, atheists have no beliefs in supernatural beings.  It is as simple as that. Just as you, I assume, don't believe in a lot of things that don't exist like yetis or djinn or unicorns.  Sure, these things exist in literature, mythology, the movies, etc.  But "out there?"  No.  So add gods to the list for us.  How is that faith?  If someone finds evidence for these beings, including gods, we will examine the evidence.  No "faith" needed.

As many people will point out to you and as you should already know, being an adult (I assume), it is pretty hard to prove a negative and easier to prove a positive.  You are saying there is a god.  Prove it. 

Offline gzusfreke

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #164 on: December 27, 2013, 09:20:46 PM »

For the record, is it correct to conclude you are defining religion as " a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe"?  If not, what definition of religion do you use?


I only copied that definition, I didn't author it, thus the link to give credit to where credit is due.

My thoughts on religion:

-Religion is man's attempt to either reach God, or to be God.
-Religion is the set of beliefs that someone holds that rule his thoughts, motivations, and actions towards others.
-While "Christianity" as most people see it could be classified as a "religion," following Jesus as His disciple is just a new way of walking through life.
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline gzusfreke

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #165 on: December 27, 2013, 09:24:44 PM »
You might be misreading us. If someone can prove christianity is true, that's fine. But what we're more interested in is showing people who believe where they are wrong.

Ok, then prove there is no God of the Bible beyond any shadow of a doubt.

That's hard to do. He has been defined so loosely and is defined so without substance that there is no way to do it. But you could help. If you could first disprove Odin or Shiva without a doubt, then we'd have an example to work with. And a better idea about what your standards are.

Oh, don't trouble yourself with my standards; after all, you haven't so far.  Just give it your best shot, ok?


Quote
We've all considered at least the generic version of your world view. I can't speak for the others, but I've rejected it outright. I need more than one ancient and irrelevant story told multiple times with multiple versions and multiple interpretations by multiple bodies who all claim to be telling the story right. I'm picky like that.

So what drives you to continue to haunt these hallowed halls and live in a continuous circle of posts?
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline gzusfreke

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #166 on: December 27, 2013, 09:27:46 PM »
As long as this goes both ways, then I'll try to address questions, but I've had a few questions that have not been answered.  Also, I'm one guy trying to respond to you, Graybeard, OCG, boots, Anfaulgir, and a few more.  I'm going to ignore what seems to be trite, or unimportant, or what I perceive to be trolling. But I will answer even some trolling attempts if it provides an opportunity for me to present my worldview on a topic.  I don't want to convert you.  I just want you to consider if my worldview is possible. I'll let God worry about converting you.  And if there is no God, then you don't have anything to worry about.

xyzzy - I have no evidence to convince you of anything.  My purpose here is not to convince anyone as that is an impossible task.  No mere human can convince those who hearts are hardened.  I only wish to provoke you to consider thoughtfully the possibility that the Bible is true and God is real.  Again, I do appeal to those who are more learned, more eloquent, and more studied than I because I know that you have the same access to them that I do.  If they cannot convince you, then I certainly stand no chance in doing so.  And if I convince you with reason and logic and you were to only intellectually assent, then I have still failed.
<snip>

gzuefreke, the second quote is in reference to this post. I listed several items that are possible, it's just that they are so improbable to be of no consequence. You acknowledged the post but you didn't actually provide any specific answers other than to assent that evidence backing up what you claim as possible, is lacking.

To rephrase some previous posts, as you most likely know, what actually "happens" right in the atomic and sub-atomic guts of how the real world (universe, actually) operates, is driven by probability not just mere possibility. Similar words, vastly different implications.

So, with reference to my previous posts, do you live your life according to possibilities - something you want us to acknowledge about your world view, or not? If that's so, the consistent thing to do would to be act as if those events above were not just possible, but likely or probable.

Or, are you inconsistent in that you mix and match so that you can ignore all those other possibilities as they are improbable, but use word-play by asking if your god is possible; then you conveniently ignore that you have no demonstrable evidence that it is probable?

How do you assign probability and improbability? While it is likely that I would not agree with your system, would there be a consensus  among your peers? 

You do not see that even you are talking in abstacts?
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #167 on: December 27, 2013, 09:29:37 PM »


Honestly we think you are wrong. Quite wrong..

And you have an "open" mind that is made up before I even began to answer your question, so why are we wasting each other's time?


I don't you could possibly been more dishonest in your snipping. You are a complete asshole.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline gzusfreke

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #168 on: December 27, 2013, 09:29:51 PM »
You are saying there is a god.  Prove it.

Theists were here first, so the burden of proof is on you late-comers.
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline gzusfreke

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #169 on: December 27, 2013, 09:33:26 PM »


Honestly we think you are wrong. Quite wrong..

And you have an "open" mind that is made up before I even began to answer your question, so why are we wasting each other's time?


I don't you could possibly been more dishonest in your snipping. You are a complete asshole.
'
You are the one who has his mind made up yet claims to be open minded.  So you are a liar.  And you can't think of anything rational or reasonable to say, so you go to the most immature of all dirty debate techniques - the ad hominem.

I know you have some intelligence as evidenced by the fact you can access the internet, but so far nothing I have seen from you indicates any maturity.
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #170 on: December 27, 2013, 09:56:23 PM »


Honestly we think you are wrong. Quite wrong..

And you have an "open" mind that is made up before I even began to answer your question, so why are we wasting each other's time?


I don't you could possibly been more dishonest in your snipping. You are a complete asshole.
'
You are the one who has his mind made up yet claims to be open minded.  So you are a liar.  And you can't think of anything rational or reasonable to say, so you go to the most immature of all dirty debate techniques - the ad hominem.

I know you have some intelligence as evidenced by the fact you can access the internet, but so far nothing I have seen from you indicates any maturity.

No I called you an asshole because you deliberately removed part of my post "snipping" not "sniping" to utterly miscast what I was saying. If you want it logical terms you were "straw manning" and "ignoring the counterevidence"

When I said "I think you are wrong" I didn't say "Nothing can convince me you are right" so once again you are straw manning me and then calling me a liar...

FOR THE FUCKING THINGS YOU PUT IN MY MOUTH.

That furthers my point you are a liar and an asshole.



An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline gzusfreke

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #171 on: December 27, 2013, 10:01:56 PM »


Honestly we think you are wrong. Quite wrong..

And you have an "open" mind that is made up before I even began to answer your question, so why are we wasting each other's time?


I don't you could possibly been more dishonest in your snipping. You are a complete asshole.
'
You are the one who has his mind made up yet claims to be open minded.  So you are a liar.  And you can't think of anything rational or reasonable to say, so you go to the most immature of all dirty debate techniques - the ad hominem.

I know you have some intelligence as evidenced by the fact you can access the internet, but so far nothing I have seen from you indicates any maturity.

No I called you an asshole because you deliberately removed part of my post "snipping" not "sniping" to utterly miscast what I was saying. If you want it logical terms you were "straw manning" and "ignoring the counterevidence"

When I said "I think you are wrong" I didn't say "Nothing can convince me you are right" so once again you are straw manning me and then calling me a liar...

FOR THE FUCKING THINGS YOU PUT IN MY MOUTH.

That furthers my point you are a liar and an asshole.

Sewermouth, I only quoted the part about you already having a presupposition that I am wrong because the whole point is - you never heard my response yet you passed judgment on it before you heard it.

Thou truly dost judge me in error.  And it is good thing I am sanctified and forgiven, other wise I could have a lot of fun with your statement: " FOR THE FUCKING THINGS YOU PUT IN MY MOUTH."

But instead I'll just inform the moderator that you are making remarks that are not child-friendly.
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline Betelnut

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #172 on: December 27, 2013, 10:20:49 PM »
You are saying there is a god.  Prove it.

Theists were here first, so the burden of proof is on you late-comers.

Define "here"--I'm not sure what you mean.  You mean, "here" as in on Earth? Or the forum? 

Yes, I would admit, the first people to become self-aware were probably so awed by their self-awareness and puniness compared to the vast sky, they probably did, quite quickly, invent a way to explain their environment, their place in that environment and the randomness they found within it.  So?  They did the best they could with the limited knowledge they had.  I don't blame them a bit for creating sky and earth gods and goddesses to help them face and understand their world.

I believe we have a bit more knowledge to go on than the hunter-gathers in Africa and EurAsia and Europe who were our ancestors.

I don't think YOU understand though what I mean when I say that it is difficult to prove a negative.  A person can claim anything he/she likes but, with that claim comes the necessity of proving it.  I don't have a claim.  You do.  You claim an existence, a "thing."  You claim there is a non-corporeal being out there that actually cares about what goes on here on Earth.  A non-corporeal being that is also all-knowing, etc.  I can't prove there isn't, just like you can't prove there aren't invisible pixies living in my basement. 

But you should be able to prove there is or, basically, the whole thing is a wash.  I have my invisible pixies and you have your all-knowing God and we'll just shake hands and agree to disagree.  No problem.  If all theists would just say, "Well, I think so.  Good day Madam," that would be great.  Or if all theists would just say, "I have faith but no proof," that would be also acceptable since it is essentially the truth.  But so many theists try to prove something that has shown itself to be impossible to prove.  Stop trying it and just believe.  We atheists can't argue against someone who simply says, "I don't need proof, I don't have it and I actually realize that I can't prove it.  But I still believe."  Eh, okay.

Karen Armstrong, in her great book, The History of God, says that historically atheism started to increase once theists started trying to reason about their belief.  Once people actually tried to "prove" it, the cracks started showing.  Theists are better off without reason and do better with mysticism and blind faith.  Oh, that and the rise of science, of course.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #173 on: December 27, 2013, 10:27:44 PM »
Gzusfreke, where are you saying that this god is?  Once you state where it's supposed to be, then we can try to disprove it.  Until then, you've not placed the idea within reality.
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.