Author Topic: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)  (Read 13316 times)

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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #116 on: December 26, 2013, 05:55:36 PM »
you haven't explained to me in a "straight, logical answer" how you are qualified to pass judgement or judgment on any deity.
I did and you ignored it. I don't see what another answer would do for you. You seem incapable of listening.
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline jtk73

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #117 on: December 26, 2013, 06:01:27 PM »
No.  I believe in one God.  Because He is not human, He does not have to be like a human, who can only exist as one person. He reveals Himself as one God who is three persons.
????? So either Jesus did not die on the cross or Jesus did die on the cross but had nothing to do with Yahweh?

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There is no contradiction.
Uhhh.

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The three are of the same "essense" or godness.
Then why ever mention the holy spirit or Jesus in the bible. If Yahweh does everything, why not just always refer to him as God or Yahweh?

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The closest approximation I can come to this in human terms is "I am one human with three roles.  I am a father, a son, and a husband.  At no time do I quit being a father so that I can be a son, or quit being a husband so that I can be a father."
So can you send one of your 'roles' to the dry cleaner or grocery store while another 'role' is playing checkers with you kids?

*I will have to address the rest of your reply tomorrow.

Offline gzusfreke

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #118 on: December 26, 2013, 06:26:26 PM »
Have you ever heard of an amanuensis, a secretary, or someone who takes dictation?
Oh, you mean like the person or persons who took dictation for Joseph Smith (the Mormon dude) as he translated the golden tablets.

Yeah, we'll go with that.  You seem to understand the concept, even if you use an example meant to belittle the conversation.

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If it was more advanced than humans could ever devise, then how could humans understand it?
Because understanding is different than devising.

If you can't devise something, it's likely due to the fact that you can't understand it in order to devise it. 
Again, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you aren't trolling.

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Also, you must have missed this part..
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b)Yahweh is not 'people', he is supposedly an all-powerful, all-knowing being - I would expect a level of communication more advanced than humans could ever devise.,

No, that is irrelevant.  I didn't miss it.  Because He is all-powerful and all-knowing, He wouldn't use a level of communication that was beyond human comprehension (can't comprehend what you can't devise - you can't devise what you can't understand).

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You are imposing your morality into the situation. What determines, other than your wants, what Yahweh should or should not do?
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This has nothing to do with morality or my wants. It has everything to do with logic -
a)Yahweh has a desire (everyone be saved, have a personal relationship, what-have-you..)
b)Yahweh has every ability to fulfill that desire (all-powerful, all-knowing)
c)Everyone is 'saved', begins a relationship, .... Oh, wait.
Either the desire is not there, the ability is not there or Yahweh is not there.

Oh wait, maybe the desire is there and the ability is there but so is God's allowance of man's free will.  Man's free will is not inconsistent with God's desire (God's will) and God's ability.

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Would He be unjust for giving some the information and not all?
If not receiving the information results in suffering, absolutely. It would also infer that he is not all-loving as many of his followers claim.

Does God have to treat everyone equally?  If so, why?  How is He unjust by showing mercy to some and not to others?  If everyone is entitled to mercy, then it is not mercy we are speaking of.  If God loves all, but does not love all equally, then is He not all-loving?

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If so, by whose standards is He unjust?  Yours or His?
Anyone that is not a sadist.

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I'm sorry that you've not gotten straight, logical answers from any of His followers.  I'll be glad to work through the questions, share what I know whether logical or not, and let you know if I don't know an answer. You can PM me with questions or start a new thread.
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It's not really your or other followers fault. You just have horrendous source material.
Why do you have to answer my questions of him, for him?

That's the way God works.  God directs His believers to go and tell others about Him and give a reasoned defense of why they believe what they believe.  I am thankful for God for forgiving me my sins, so I voluntarily and gladly will tell others in hopes that some also be forgiven of their sins.

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So how much of the Bible have you read? You said you've read at least some of "his collection of stories." What did you read?  What questions were you looking to answer?
In my entire life, I would approximate that I have read about 90 - 95% of the bible. Again, enough to see that it does not match up with reality. Enough to think that the light in which the writers portray Yahweh, is not the light in which they were hoping to portray him. Or maybe it was. Maybe they thought a jealous, petty, vindictive sky wizard was cool.

What parts of the Bible brought you to think of God as "a jealous, petty, vindictive sky wizard"?  Nevermind, I see further down in your post what you are referring to.

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How much do you know about Hinduism, a complex religion of 3.3 million gods?
I know Hinduism has one god with many aspects. In what way is it any more complex than Christianity? What does complexity have to do with validity in regards to religion?

Knowing how people in the forum love wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduism.  Chew on this awhile and we can talk more later.  If you don't understand at least some aspects of Hinduism, how can you determine what is and is not valid in Hinduism or how another belief structure is more or less valid?

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Who's the judge of what is "logical"?
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Logic.

ooh, aahh. wait, no, that's a terrible answer.

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No, don't assume anything.  Have an open mind - consider the possibility that it is true and try to forget your prejudices towards it. A lot of aspersion here.  Do you want to discuss specific instances where you believe God acted like a tantrum-throwing toddler and discuss these in their context?
For the purposes of discussion (I don't believe any of this) - The garden of Eden, the flood, the plagues visited on Egypt, the bald dude with the attack bears, the tower of Babel, Sodom & Gomorrah, Job's ordeals.

So would it be a waste of my time to discuss these with you?  No sense beating a dead horse if you are predisposed into believing that these are just myths to show how infantile Yahweh is.

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and no, you haven't explained to me in a "straight, logical answer" how you are qualified to pass judgement or judgment on any deity.
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Firstly, your original question was referring to Yahweh. Now you are referring to any deity. It is entirely possible that there exist a deity or deities that are morally superior to me - Yahweh is not one of them. Still see no evidence for any of them, so even if they exist, they are irrelevant.
Also, I haven't murdered a single person in my entire life. That, immediately makes me morally superior to Yahweh

Have you ever hated someone in your heart/mind?  Have you ever wanted something that belonged to someone else for your own - not wanting something like it but wanting that exact thing?  Have you ever wanted to have sex with someone outside the vows of marriage?  Have you ever been dishonest with anyone? Have you ever been disrespectful in thought or speech towards your parents? Have you ever taken anything that did not belong to you?
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline gzusfreke

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #119 on: December 26, 2013, 06:33:48 PM »
No.  I believe in one God.  Because He is not human, He does not have to be like a human, who can only exist as one person. He reveals Himself as one God who is three persons.
????? So either Jesus did not die on the cross or Jesus did die on the cross but had nothing to do with Yahweh?

Yes, the human nature of Jesus did die on the cross.  No, His deity did not die on the cross.


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The three are of the same "essense" or godness.
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Then why ever mention the holy spirit or Jesus in the bible. If Yahweh does everything, why not just always refer to him as God or Yahweh?

I don't know why God chose to reveal Himself this way in different places in the Bible.  Since the Bible says that He is one God but expressed as the three Persons, then I guess He is just trying to help us understand Him.  Why does He call Himself Jehovah Jirah in one place, Jehovah Nissi in another, etc?  Each time it reveals something of His character.

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The closest approximation I can come to this in human terms is "I am one human with three roles.  I am a father, a son, and a husband.  At no time do I quit being a father so that I can be a son, or quit being a husband so that I can be a father."
So can you send one of your 'roles' to the dry cleaner or grocery store while another 'role' is playing checkers with you kids?

*I will have to address the rest of your reply tomorrow.

Only if you quit trolling.
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #120 on: December 26, 2013, 06:48:45 PM »
GF you have faith you will be forgiven for sins,given Gods track record for doing the opposite of what he says,I doubt it
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #121 on: December 26, 2013, 06:57:21 PM »
Have you ever hated someone in your heart/mind?  Have you ever wanted something that belonged to someone else for your own - not wanting something like it but wanting that exact thing?  Have you ever wanted to have sex with someone outside the vows of marriage?  Have you ever been dishonest with anyone? Have you ever been disrespectful in thought or speech towards your parents? Have you ever taken anything that did not belong to you?

... if so, you're probably human.

Have you ever committed genocide more than once?
Have you promised to laugh at people when they are in trouble?
Have you told people a fake way to cure leprosy and then giggled as they were disabled?
Have you ever taught your faithful to perform abortions?
Have you ever advocated wholesale slaughter to gain slaves and wealth?
Have you ever inspired your faithful to gather the foreskins of your enemy dead?
Have you ever thought that arranging for your son to be killed would be good for the world?
Does a desire come upon you to set bears onto children?
Does ripping open the abdomen of a pregnant woman sound good?
Have you plans to slaughter 1/3rd of mankind?

... if so, you are probably a god.
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #122 on: December 26, 2013, 07:06:57 PM »
No, don't assume anything.  Have an open mind - consider the possibility that it is true and try to forget your prejudices towards it.
Oh, you mean like you do when you assume there is no god?
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline gzusfreke

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #123 on: December 26, 2013, 07:23:04 PM »
No, don't assume anything.  Have an open mind - consider the possibility that it is true and try to forget your prejudices towards it.
Oh, you mean like you do when you assume there is no god?

There was a time when I thought that I knew there was no god, at least not the God of the Bible.  It was 1993 through 1998.  I had been in and out of church since age 12. I had a fear-driven response to a very fiery hell-and-brimstone sermon when I was 12 and "made a profession of faith." My actual profession was "I don't want to die and go to hell." Not exactly coming to God for the right reason, but that's another story.  For the next 26 years, I drifted in and out of church.  I attended, sometimes tithed, sometimes participated above and beyond Sunday School and Worship service.  Sometimes I stayed out and ran the roads and drank and chased women every chance I got.  There was no evidence of salvific regeneration in my life for all those years.

After going through some traumatic times and God not showing up and doing things to my liking, I raised my fist to Him, cursed Him, spit at Him, and then I decided He was just a figment of someone's imagination.  I believed that the only thing that was, was what is.  Carl Sagan and the Cosmos, stardust, evolution, higher reasoning and thinking, these are the things that have meaning in life and after this life, there was nothing.

So for five years, I was mostly an atheist until I heard about Deism near the end of the five years. I studied that for a little while and felt comfortable that Deism was a better explanation for the universe than Carl Sagan could offer, but it also provided the answer why there was pain and suffering in my life.  It didn't make me like God any better, just answered some nagging questions about existence.  I was a devout Deist.  God left me alone and I left Him alone.

So, yes, I have more than considered that there is no God.  I have doubted the Bible and the God of the Bible (at least the Bible that I really had never read completely other than as rote exercise and the God that I made up in my image who was supposed to solve all my problems for me).  I have denied the existence of any deity and sincerely held that belief not for a day, a week, or a month, but for several crucial years of my life.

A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #124 on: December 26, 2013, 10:35:26 PM »


So for five years, I was mostly an atheist until I heard about Deism near the end of the five years. I studied that for a little while and felt comfortable that Deism was a better explanation for the universe than Carl Sagan could offer, but it also provided the answer why there was pain and suffering in my life.  It didn't make me like God any better, just answered some nagging questions about existence.  I was a devout Deist.  God left me alone and I left Him alone.

So, yes, I have more than considered that there is no God.  I have doubted the Bible and the God of the Bible (at least the Bible that I really had never read completely other than as rote exercise and the God that I made up in my image who was supposed to solve all my problems for me).  I have denied the existence of any deity and sincerely held that belief not for a day, a week, or a month, but for several crucial years of my life.

Are you currently a Deist or Christian?
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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Offline gzusfreke

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #125 on: December 26, 2013, 10:37:21 PM »


So for five years, I was mostly an atheist until I heard about Deism near the end of the five years. I studied that for a little while and felt comfortable that Deism was a better explanation for the universe than Carl Sagan could offer, but it also provided the answer why there was pain and suffering in my life.  It didn't make me like God any better, just answered some nagging questions about existence.  I was a devout Deist.  God left me alone and I left Him alone.

So, yes, I have more than considered that there is no God.  I have doubted the Bible and the God of the Bible (at least the Bible that I really had never read completely other than as rote exercise and the God that I made up in my image who was supposed to solve all my problems for me).  I have denied the existence of any deity and sincerely held that belief not for a day, a week, or a month, but for several crucial years of my life.

Are you currently a Deist or Christian?

I became a Christian in early 1999.
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #126 on: December 26, 2013, 10:49:44 PM »
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Are you currently a Deist or Christian?

I became a Christian in early 1999.

Okay. Then how do you logically state Christianity as true and all other conflicting cosmologies from other religions as false?
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline gzusfreke

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #127 on: December 26, 2013, 11:13:58 PM »
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Are you currently a Deist or Christian?

I became a Christian in early 1999.

Okay. Then how do you logically state Christianity as true and all other conflicting cosmologies from other religions as false?

How do you logically declare which ones are false?
« Last Edit: December 26, 2013, 11:37:28 PM by gzusfreke »
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #128 on: December 26, 2013, 11:32:33 PM »


Okay. Then how do you logically state Christianity as true and all other conflicting cosmologies from other religions as false?

How do logically declare which ones are false?

May i play?

I don't remember enough about logic to play the game philosophically. But here is how I look at it.

There are a whole bunch of conflicting religious cosmologies. None reflect reality well enough to be impressive. Nobody that I know claims that two or more cosmologies that are far obviously dissimilar are also right. If Christians can, without deep study, proclaim the Hindu version wrong, simply because they know that their own is right, and Hindu's can claim the Christian version is wrong, simply because it conflicts with the Hindu version, then the most likely scenario is that both of them are right. At least about the other one being wrong.

How do you logically pick one cosmology as right when there is no way to square any of them with observed reality? How do you square any of them with reality when each requires a measurable degree of belief and faith? Belief and faith in astonishing claims that no living human has ever experienced in a provable way? How do you pick any cosmology as right using any measure if those same measures can be used by others to pick yet another cosmology as right?

The logical conclusion is not that one of the cosmologies is correct, but rather one can conclude that people used to make stuff up when they didn't have enough information to do otherwise. They had two choices at the time. Wonder a bit and go on with their lives, or come up with what, at the time, seemed plausible, so that their world could make a bit more sense. And probably, as an added bonus, those that made up the stories ended up having more power than everyone else. Because people discovered by-products like that long before they discovered how to make telescopes.

When an ancient story has you saying "Yea, but…" every time someone who doesn't believe it brings up observable information that conflicts with your story, it seems a more likely that you are defending something that is false than something that is true.

When Christianity is taken to its extreme, with a 6,000 year old earth and an earth-drowning flood 4,000 or so years ago, every ounce of sanity goes out the window. We have so much evidence that this planet and the universe are older than that that if it is indeed true that we have a young earth, then your god is playing games. And the one I don't believe in is nicer than that.
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Offline gzusfreke

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #129 on: December 26, 2013, 11:44:29 PM »


Okay. Then how do you logically state Christianity as true and all other conflicting cosmologies from other religions as false?

Thanks to PP for reminding me.

Here's how you would " logically state Christianity as true and all other conflicting cosmologies from other religions as false":

Two opposing views can't both be true.  Example:  2+2=3 and 2+2=4.  They can't both be true; therefore, since Christianity is true, all other conflicting cosmologies from other religions are false.

Hatter23 , that is what you asked for, right?
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #130 on: December 26, 2013, 11:53:41 PM »


Okay. Then how do you logically state Christianity as true and all other conflicting cosmologies from other religions as false?

Thanks to PP for reminding me.

Here's how you would " logically state Christianity as true and all other conflicting cosmologies from other religions as false":

Two opposing views can't both be true.  Example:  2+2=3 and 2+2=4.  They can't both be true; therefore, since Christianity is true, all other conflicting cosmologies from other religions are false.

Hatter23 , that is what you asked for, right?

You kind of need to show us the math for your conclusion too.
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Offline gzusfreke

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #131 on: December 26, 2013, 11:56:19 PM »


Okay. Then how do you logically state Christianity as true and all other conflicting cosmologies from other religions as false?

Thanks to PP for reminding me.

Here's how you would " logically state Christianity as true and all other conflicting cosmologies from other religions as false":

Two opposing views can't both be true.  Example:  2+2=3 and 2+2=4.  They can't both be true; therefore, since Christianity is true, all other conflicting cosmologies from other religions are false.

Hatter23 , that is what you asked for, right?

You kind of need to show us the math for your conclusion too.

No, Hatter23 said to "logically state that Christianity as true and all other conflicting cosmologies from other religions are false." I think I used logic to do what he requested.  And to think that you were partly responsible.
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #132 on: December 27, 2013, 12:05:38 AM »
No, Hatter23 said to "logically state that Christianity as true and all other conflicting cosmologies from other religions are false." I think I used logic to do what he requested.  And to think that you were partly responsible.

Understood, Spock. But your ears are falling off.
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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #133 on: December 27, 2013, 12:43:10 AM »


So for five years, I was mostly an atheist until I heard about Deism near the end of the five years. I studied that for a little while and felt comfortable that Deism was a better explanation for the universe than Carl Sagan could offer, but it also provided the answer why there was pain and suffering in my life.  It didn't make me like God any better, just answered some nagging questions about existence.  I was a devout Deist.  God left me alone and I left Him alone.

So, yes, I have more than considered that there is no God.  I have doubted the Bible and the God of the Bible (at least the Bible that I really had never read completely other than as rote exercise and the God that I made up in my image who was supposed to solve all my problems for me).  I have denied the existence of any deity and sincerely held that belief not for a day, a week, or a month, but for several crucial years of my life.

Are you currently a Deist or Christian?

I became a Christian in early 1999.

We know a lot more now than Carl Sagan ever did. You should look at the evidence again.

Deism is a much better bet than Christianity, which has been ruled out for so many reasons.
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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #134 on: December 27, 2013, 01:14:12 AM »

So for five years, I was mostly an atheist until I heard about Deism near the end of the five years. I studied that for a little while and felt comfortable that Deism was a better explanation for the universe than Carl Sagan could offer, but it also provided the answer why there was pain and suffering in my life.  It didn't make me like God any better, just answered some nagging questions about existence.  I was a devout Deist.  God left me alone and I left Him alone.


First of all, you do realize that there is pain and suffering in everyones life. Obviously some end up having more of both than others do, but it is a fairly normal thing.

My question is this: Why do you think there has to be a specific reason for it? Outside of what is natural, or cultural, or individually generated? Why do you think there has to be some central cause (evil) rather than an assortment of causes, some of which can be amplified by cruel or careless humans?

I have never understood this aspect of christianity. To think that without a central cause that nothing bad would be happening on earth is patently silly. We have earthquakes, a**holes, accidents, selfishness, inebriating substances, sexual tensions and two or three other trouble-producing sources, and to think that as natural being we would automatically be immune to these things seems incredibly naïve. As natural (vs. god-built) beings, there are no controls in nature or anywhere else in the universe to always protect us from it or ourselves.

When making up a reason makes the bad stuff seem more understandable, you are adding delusion as yet another source of pain.

I was at a funeral for a neighbor a number of years ago. She had died at 82 of lung cancer. Her daughter was very distraught, and kept wailing "Why, why, why God!". Well, her mom was old and had smoked since she was 12. But the daughter had to add a god-based puzzlement to her grief, and I'll never see any advantage to mixing fact and fiction.

In a natural world, why would you expect us to be immune to pain and suffering? What aspect of evolution do you think would protect us. What part of stars blowing up and asteroids crashing down seems inherently cute? Do you honestly expect volcanoes to limit the heat of their lava to under 100° so as to avoid serious burns? For earthquakes to emulate a bowl full of jello? Floods to be only an inch deep? Religion-crazed rebels with AK-47's to shoot blanks? Passionately angry lovers to follow all the safety rules while slashing out with a butcher knife? Cancer asking if it can play in your liver for just a couple of days if it promises not to hurt anything?

I can't imagine a reason in the world why everything that goes wrong should be considered abnormal and hence proof of an evil force lurking amongst us. In fact, it would take a world where nothing went wrong that would convince me that a higher power exists. One where normal includes bad stuff is just what I would expect. And it is exactly what we have.

Edit: My usual f**k-ups, plus some more later.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2013, 01:44:58 AM by ParkingPlaces »
Jesus, the cracker flavored treat!

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #135 on: December 27, 2013, 01:22:12 AM »


Okay. Then how do you logically state Christianity as true and all other conflicting cosmologies from other religions as false?

Thanks to PP for reminding me.

Here's how you would " logically state Christianity as true and all other conflicting cosmologies from other religions as false":

Two opposing views can't both be true.  Example:  2+2=3 and 2+2=4.  They can't both be true; therefore, since Christianity is true, all other conflicting cosmologies from other religions are false.

Hatter23 , that is what you asked for, right?
Lets put aside the sarcasm;

That is referred to as circular reasoning.

Try again.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #136 on: December 27, 2013, 02:16:22 AM »
if I exercise my free will one day and just not show up for work,

How does the making of that choice work please?  What actually happens while you are making it?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #137 on: December 27, 2013, 07:15:08 AM »

There was a time when I thought that I knew there was no god, at least not the God of the Bible.
[...]I studied that for a little while and felt comfortable that Deism was a better explanation for the universe
It seems to me that you had been so severely damaged by the thought of some deity that you found that you were trapped in some cult and returned to it via a less demanding belief system.

Oh, and just in case you're worried, when you say
Quote
Sometimes I stayed out and ran the roads and drank and chased women every chance I got.
That is just a normal part of growing up - nothing to worry about, nothing to be ashamed of. Men have been doing this since women have been around: it is probably just as well that they have, otherwise our species would have died out.

It is, of course, interesting that the religious crime of "lusting after" someone (in a sort of adolescent way) was still in your mind - proof, if proof were needed, that your religious indoctrination had never really left you.
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Boots

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #138 on: December 27, 2013, 07:52:55 AM »


Okay. Then how do you logically state Christianity as true and all other conflicting cosmologies from other religions as false?

Thanks to PP for reminding me.

Here's how you would " logically state Christianity as true and all other conflicting cosmologies from other religions as false":

Two opposing views can't both be true.  Example:  2+2=3 and 2+2=4.  They can't both be true; therefore, since Christianity is true, all other conflicting cosmologies from other religions are false.

Hatter23 , that is what you asked for, right?

You kind of need to show us the math for your conclusion too.

No, Hatter23 said to "logically state that Christianity as true and all other conflicting cosmologies from other religions are false." I think I used logic to do what he requested.  And to think that you were partly responsible.

gfreke,
Hatter asked "Then how do you logically state Christianity as true ...?"  You replied with "...since Christianity is true, all other conflicting cosmologies from other religions are false"

one of two things happened here (assuming that I understood Hatter's meaning--Hatter, please correct me if I'm wrong)
1) You misunderstood what Hatter was asking, so instead of providing a thread of logical reasoning for your belief in Xianity/disbelief in all other religions, you provided an "if A then B" style statement, stating you believed in Xianity--not what he was asking for.
2) you deliberately twisted what he asked, knowing full well that you were dodging, and gave a smarmy response to a legitimate question.

I would like to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume the innocence of #1, and I humbly invite you to, as Hatter did when he pointed out your circular reasoning, "try again."
It's one of the reasons I'm an atheist today.  I decided to take my religion seriously, and that's when it started to fall apart for me.
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Offline gzusfreke

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #139 on: December 27, 2013, 09:52:25 AM »

So for five years, I was mostly an atheist until I heard about Deism near the end of the five years. I studied that for a little while and felt comfortable that Deism was a better explanation for the universe than Carl Sagan could offer, but it also provided the answer why there was pain and suffering in my life.  It didn't make me like God any better, just answered some nagging questions about existence.  I was a devout Deist.  God left me alone and I left Him alone.


First of all, you do realize that there is pain and suffering in everyones life. Obviously some end up having more of both than others do, but it is a fairly normal thing.

My question is this: Why do you think there has to be a specific reason for it? Outside of what is natural, or cultural, or individually generated? Why do you think there has to be some central cause (evil) rather than an assortment of causes, some of which can be amplified by cruel or careless humans?

Because everything that is, has a cause. 

Because living is cruel and meaningless if pain, loss, and suffering have no purpose.

Quote

I can't imagine a reason in the world why everything that goes wrong should be considered abnormal and hence proof of an evil force lurking amongst us. In fact, it would take a world where nothing went wrong that would convince me that a higher power exists. One where normal includes bad stuff is just what I would expect. And it is exactly what we have.


At least you can conceive of a world where nothing went wrong. That's a good sign.  There's hope for you yet.
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline gzusfreke

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #140 on: December 27, 2013, 09:57:56 AM »
if I exercise my free will one day and just not show up for work,

How does the making of that choice work please?  What actually happens while you are making it?

I think about my options.  I have free will to choose at least within the options.

Option 1:  Go to work, work hard, please my boss.  Consequences:  I keep my job, I get a paycheck, I spend it at Wal-mart on groceries and pay rent.

Option 2:  Go to work, slack off, fool my boss.  Consequences:  Could be the same as Option 1 Consequences, but new consequences are introduced.  My boss catches me slacking off, I get a reprimand and passed over for a raise.  Or my boss might fire me, which means I have no money for Wal-mart and rent.

Option 3:  I don't go to work at all and call in sick.  Consequences get more complicated.

Option 4:  I don't go to work at all, stay home, create a new Atheists website, and get rich selling advertising to major corporations who want to be identified as supportive of atheistic thought.
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline Boots

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #141 on: December 27, 2013, 10:02:39 AM »

Because everything that is, has a cause. 

Because living is cruel and meaningless if pain, loss, and suffering have no purpose.


So, because you wantsomething to be true, you believe it *is* true?
« Last Edit: December 27, 2013, 10:24:05 AM by Boots »
It's one of the reasons I'm an atheist today.  I decided to take my religion seriously, and that's when it started to fall apart for me.
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Offline gzusfreke

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #142 on: December 27, 2013, 10:04:15 AM »

There was a time when I thought that I knew there was no god, at least not the God of the Bible.
[...]I studied that for a little while and felt comfortable that Deism was a better explanation for the universe
It seems to me that you had been so severely damaged by the thought of some deity that you found that you were trapped in some cult and returned to it via a less demanding belief system.

What I was damaged by was my own unmet expectations from having a false view of the God of the Bible as a result of not becoming familiar with what the Bible said about Him and relying on my own thoughts independent of the Bible to form this deity in my mind. 

Quote
Oh, and just in case you're worried, when you say

I'm not worried.

Quote
Sometimes I stayed out and ran the roads and drank and chased women every chance I got.
Quote
That is just a normal part of growing up - nothing to worry about, nothing to be ashamed of. Men have been doing this since women have been around: it is probably just as well that they have, otherwise our species would have died out.

It is, of course, interesting that the religious crime of "lusting after" someone (in a sort of adolescent way) was still in your mind - proof, if proof were needed, that your religious indoctrination had never really left you.

At the time I was doing it, it wasn't a crime to me.  It was just natural tendencies.  It only because a "crime" or sin to me after I was regenerated.

A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline gzusfreke

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #143 on: December 27, 2013, 10:07:20 AM »


Okay. Then how do you logically state Christianity as true and all other conflicting cosmologies from other religions as false?

Thanks to PP for reminding me.

Here's how you would " logically state Christianity as true and all other conflicting cosmologies from other religions as false":

Two opposing views can't both be true.  Example:  2+2=3 and 2+2=4.  They can't both be true; therefore, since Christianity is true, all other conflicting cosmologies from other religions are false.

Hatter23 , that is what you asked for, right?

You kind of need to show us the math for your conclusion too.

No, Hatter23 said to "logically state that Christianity as true and all other conflicting cosmologies from other religions are false." I think I used logic to do what he requested.  And to think that you were partly responsible.

gfreke,
Hatter asked "Then how do you logically state Christianity as true ...?"  You replied with "...since Christianity is true, all other conflicting cosmologies from other religions are false"

one of two things happened here (assuming that I understood Hatter's meaning--Hatter, please correct me if I'm wrong)
1) You misunderstood what Hatter was asking, so instead of providing a thread of logical reasoning for your belief in Xianity/disbelief in all other religions, you provided an "if A then B" style statement, stating you believed in Xianity--not what he was asking for.
2) you deliberately twisted what he asked, knowing full well that you were dodging, and gave a smarmy response to a legitimate question.

I would like to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume the innocence of #1, and I humbly invite you to, as Hatter did when he pointed out your circular reasoning, "try again."

I took Hatter's request literally and provided him what he wanted.   ;)

Can you logically disprove or prove a philosophical concept? If so, you go first and show me how it's done.
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline gzusfreke

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Re: Divine Indifference and Moral Character (Humans vs. God)
« Reply #144 on: December 27, 2013, 10:09:32 AM »

So, because you wantsomething to be true, you believe it *is* true?

How did you get there?  No, I want it to be true that I am richer than Bill Gates, but wanting it to be true doesn't make it true.  But there are some objective truths in the universe that, just because I don't want them to be true, doesn't make them false.
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin